How did Sarah Greenhilt die?

[Fyraltari]

Shojo being referred to as an "octogenarian" when he's actually only 72 isn't what I'd call a huge mistake - especially when it's other characters calling him that, rather than him himself.

What's your source on sHojo being 72? Because the timeline you linked to doesn't give any and requires young Shojo here to be 16, which I find very hard to believe. As well as for the Order of the scribble's adventures, the founding of the Sapphire guard, the construction of the Azurite Palace and Soon leading a crusade to all happen in only 9 years.

[hamishspence]

What's your source on sHojo being 72?

War and XPs character page - gives all the major Azure City characters ages.

This is a retcon (Shojo was originally 68, originally called "Shojo II", and 12 when the Sapphire was handed over) - but we're stuck with it.

The sequence of events is:

Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.

Even at the time, people commented that he looked a bit young for a 12 year old, and The Giant responded that the art has its limitations.

As far as Shojo II's age in the picture: I think you guys have an unrealistic perception of the ability to depict children of various ages with stick figures. It's pretty much baby/child/adult, that's it. The same thing came up with Roy in the flashbacks. In order to make it clearly NOT an adult, it end up looking like a child, even if its intended to be preteen. Look at the goblin teenagers, for example.

[dancrilis]

I suspect that this is due to The Giant not paying as much attention to established details of canon and internal chronology as we do.

This is fair, and I was going to post the same two quotes that hamishspence used to indicate its fairness, The Giant is not going to sweat minor details which have limited impact on the story.

However in the interests of discussion:

I think a difference in age that big would have been commented on in-story if it were intentional.

Sarah being a lot younger then Eugene is not unreasonable - it is reasonable for a man to make his money before settling down to have a wife and kids (woman are on something more of a clock on the kids issue) and Sarah mentioned that she and Eugene were happy together and had a very good life (panel 4 and 5).

Rather then hookup with a level 1 commoner who might have rented a dirt farm and been at the whims of minor forces for beyond their control she got together with an accomplished wizard whose father was a well known and respected adventurer - and so was able to send her children to decent schools and raise them in an environment where neither she or they would have to fear hunger or the occassional CR3 monster.

It isn't like she hooked up with aa elf or dragon where the age gap would be a lot more larger.

[hamishspence]

Sarah mentioned that she and Eugene were happy together and had a very good life (panel 4 and 5).

While it's unambiguous that the early stages of their marriage were very happy and good, there's also an implication that the late stages of their marriage were somewhat less so.

"There was a time when he and I were very happy together" not "We were always happy together."

Combined with "It took a few years, but he eventually drifted away from me and back to his career - only by then, we had kids and he was pretty much stuck with me"

and the implication is that the late stages of the marriage were less happy than the early stages.

[Keltest]

While it's unambiguous that the early stages of their marriage were very happy and good, there's also an implication that the late stages of their marriage were somewhat less so.

"There was a time when he and I were very happy together" not "We were always happy together."

Combined with "It took a few years, but he eventually drifted away from me and back to his career - only by then, we had kids and he was pretty much stuck with me"

and the implication is that the late stages of the marriage were less happy than the early stages.

Worth a reminder at this point that less happy does not necessarily equate to unhappy either. Sarah at the very least still respects and likes Eugene enough to not want him badmouthed in front of her.

[hamishspence]

Could be partly a "Offspring should not disrespect their parents" thing.

[Fyraltari]

Sarah being a lot younger then Eugene is not unreasonable - it is reasonable for a man to make his money before settling down to have a wife and kids (woman are on something more of a clock on the kids issue) and Sarah mentioned that she and Eugene were happy together and had a very good life (panel 4 and 5).

Rather then hookup with a level 1 commoner who might have rented a dirt farm and been at the whims of minor forces for beyond their control she got together with an accomplished wizard whose father was a well known and respected adventurer - and so was able to send her children to decent schools and raise them in an environment where neither she or they would have to fear hunger or the occassional CR3 monster.

I see absolutely no reason to assume that money was a deciding factor in Sara's decision to date and marry Eugene or that he was the primary breadwinner of the household.

[Peelee]

I see absolutely no reason to assume that money was a deciding factor in Sara's decision to date and marry Eugene or that he was the primary breadwinner of the household.

We know Eugene was an adventurer. We do not know anything about any career Sarah might have had. It is thus not unreasonable to assume with the information at hand that Eugene was the primary breadwinner, especially given how the comic portrays adventurers as typically wealthy.

[Fyraltari]

We know Eugene was an adventurer. We do not know anything about any career Sarah might have had. It is thus not unreasonable to assume with the information at hand that Eugene was the primary breadwinner, especially given how the comic portrays adventurers as typically wealthy.

He was a retired adventurer (one who was hyperfocused on a quest he never completed) and judging from the Order, adventurers tend to lose their money about as fast as they make it.

[Doug Lampert]

He was a retired adventurer (one who was hyperfocused on a quest he never completed) and judging from the Order, adventurers tend to lose their money about as fast as they make it.

As far as we know, Haley still has 8 or so bags of holding full of treasure. She's able to pay for repairs for an airship out of hand and buy magic items for Elan despite having to also cover Elan's "bargaining" for the items.

When buying a knife mid-fight with Crystal-Golem, she casually tosses the nearly bankrupt salescouple enough money to retire to the tropics.

Roy can casually offer substantial bonuses to an airship's crew. Town's raise prices when adventurers come in sight by orders of magnitude because adventure's have so much money.

There is no indication that adventurers have trouble with cash or spend everything. There are extremely strong indications that they spend lots and lots and lots and lots compared to the entire wealth of most people, and still have more left over afterward.

[Peelee]

He was a retired adventurer

Yes, as I said, he was an adventurer.

and judging from the Order, adventurers tend to lose their money about as fast as they make it.

Disregarding that lack of money has been one of the Order's smallest hurdles and they have solved numerous problems by throwing money at them, of course. And ignoring that specific examples may not fit overall trends yet the overall trends are not disproved by this (IE specific beats general, one of the first rules of D&D. And law. And math. And, well, everything).

[Ruck]

Could be partly a "Offspring should not disrespect their parents" thing.

I think it was mostly that.

[JonahFalcon]

Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.

And there are wizards, sorcerers, illusionists, etc in this setting too.

[woweedd]

I always assumed that, by the time she died, Julia was already off at school, and she refused resurrection on the basis of wanting to be with Eric and both her kids now being old enough to no longer need her around.

[Kish]

The characterisation of Sarah as choosing the age of 19 as her forever form, meeting Eugene in a drunken hook up at what would have been the age of 44 and only birthing Roy after Birth Control spells which failed doesn’t really match with a woman who embraced Geriatric Pregnancy?

Staying out of most of this, I'd just like to point out that, unless I've missed something Sarah herself said, the one person who said Roy was conceived when a birth control spell failed was Eugene, who lies regularly in general and goes out of his way to tear Roy down in specific.

[woweedd]

Staying out of most of this, I'd just like to point out that, unless I've missed something Sarah herself said, the one person who said Roy was conceived when a birth control spell failed was Eugene, who lies regularly in general and goes out of his way to tear Roy down in specific.

Man, I sure hope that doesn't cause said kid to become equally, if not more, sarcastic as a coping mechanism, also constantly putting down the people around him until some incident where a musically-inclined friend he has a vaguely paternalistic relationship with nearly gets killed as a result of his negligence, in a manner not dissimilar to Eugene's own neglect leading to the death of his actual son, causing said kid to come to an epiphany about how he's been acting like his jackass of a father...Nah.

[TinyMushroom]

We know Roy’s Mother died in the year 1181, when Julia was 14. Her Husband was revived three times during their marriage before his death of old age. Why did Sarah not want to come back to be with her daughter?

Does this mean Sarah died of Old Age? If she died at 72, the minimum old age death per rules, then this means she gave birth to her children at 46, 53 and 58. The characterisation of Sarah as choosing the age of 19 as her forever form, meeting Eugene in a drunken hook up at what would have been the age of 44 and only birthing Roy after Birth Control spells which failed doesn’t really match with a woman who embraced Geriatric Pregnancy?

Not to mention Regular Human Women turn infertile at 50. Did Sarah take feats and magic items to prevent this? For the progeny of a man she regretted meeting. And then she doesn’t put resources into living (or un-living) to see her daughter become an adult? Doubtful.

All this paints to the house of Greenhilt being dark and dysfunctional. Based on what we know the only conclusions we can extrapolate are either a) Julia is not the daughter of Sarah and is instead a magical creation of Eugene, hence Seah does not care what happens to it or b) Sarah Greenhilt killed herself to join her son in Celestia and The Deva’s are cool with that.

Thoughts?

Maybe she really did die of old age, and Giant just ignored the old age tables. People have crappy genes sometimes and it happens.
Maybe nobody could gather the money to resurrect her because she didn't have an adventuring party where everyone was pitching in money to get her back for the next mission.
Maybe, just maybe, she just died by accident or illness, but was happy to be reunited with the son she thought she'd never see again, and even though she misses the rest of her children a lot she can't risk being resurrected, her alignment changing and losing him forever. The soul needs to WANT to come back after all.

Like, Eugene and Sarah's marriage wasn't great, but you don't need to jump straight to the grimdark conclusion when people die all the time from random happenstance. The insinuation that she's a bad mother because she couldn't predict and prevent her own death is ridiculous. Where are you getting the idea she could even afford things like fancy magic items or resurrections? (Ok I'll stripe that away but I still think the assumption that it's her duty to actively look to prevent her death is dumb.)

[Fyraltari]

Where are you getting the idea she could even afford things like fancy magic items or resurrections?

I don't think there's anything even remotely sinister afoot, but Eugene's Cleric friend Myrtok is close enough with the family for Roy to call him uncle without any indication of sarcasm (unlike how Nale uses scare quotes when calling Laurin his aunt) and Roy mentions that there were several resurrection attempts made for Eric.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think there's anything even remotely sinister afoot, but Eugene's Cleric friend Myrtok is close enough with the family for Roy to call him uncle without any indication of sarcasm (unlike how Nale uses scare quotes when calling Laurin his aunt) and Roy mentions that there were several resurrection attempts made for Eric.

It was likewise implied that communication with one's dead using lower level and cheaper clerical spells is not impossible (albeit only in DFC, and the canonicity of that fact would undermine certain plot points further down the line, so it might be more prudent to assume that Eugene is no expert on divine magic).

[littlebum2002]

Yeah I think OP is looking too deep into this. If I had to guess, most non-adventurers only die once in this world. I assume dying is a pretty unpleasant process no matter how you die, and most people wouldn't want to go through that more than once. In addition, you're now in paradise with everything you've ever wanted, (including your infant son who you haven't seen in over a decade) so why leave?

In most D&D settings there's a pretty vast difference between how adventurers live their lives and how normal people live their lives. Just because an adventurer expects that they'll be Raised every time they die until they finally die of old age, that doesn't mean everyone else feels that same way

[brian 333]

Yeah I think OP is looking too deep into this. If I had to guess, most non-adventurers only die once in this world. I assume dying is a pretty unpleasant process no matter how you die, and most people wouldn't want to go through that more than once. In addition, you're now in paradise with everything you've ever wanted, (including your infant son who you haven't seen in over a decade) so why leave?

In most D&D settings there's a pretty vast difference between how adventurers live their lives and how normal people live their lives. Just because an adventurer expects that they'll be Raised every time they die until they finally die of old age, that doesn't mean everyone else feels that same way

In most settings, most PCs die long before Wealth By Level allows a raise. The base cost is 5000gp worth of diamonds, not including markup for the NPC caster required to perform the spell. This places most individuals at about 5th to 7th levels before they can afford a raise and 3rd level before the combined wealth of the party can.

Note that this is all the wealth of the party. Selling that newly acquired +1 chain shirt may not seem like a good trade to your party ranger when he never really liked Magic Mike all that much to begin with.

In my experience, TPKs tens to happen most often at the lowest levels, and rather than cripple the survivors of disasterous dungeon crawls, most players opt to have the player of a dead level 2 or 3 character roll up a new guy.

Your experience may vary, but the thickest folder in my collection of forty years of campaigns is labeled, Valhalla: it contains the character sheets of all the characters that didn't make it.

[Metastachydium]

In most settings, most PCs die long before Wealth By Level allows a raise. The base cost is 5000gp worth of diamonds, not including markup for the NPC caster required to perform the spell. This places most individuals at about 5th to 7th levels before they can afford a raise and 3rd level before the combined wealth of the party can.

That depends on the general level of the PC population across the games one plays, but yes, a Raise is 5450+ gp (if a caster's even willing to do it; by the book, "[i]f the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available"), so up to level 4, it is literally (50+ gp) cheaper to replace a PC than to raise 'em – assuming, of course, their body is largely intact. Otherwise it's not even an option.

[Shining Wrath]

If you have had a miserable life you might choose not to return to it, even if you have a teen child. Especially if your teen child is already in wizard's college.

[JonahFalcon]

If you have had a miserable life you might choose not to return to it, even if you have a teen child. Especially if your teen child is already in wizard's college.

Also, Enriqué.