When can a spellthief cast second level spells?

[Gaiwecoor]

This may seem like a strange question, but bear with me: When can a spellthief (CAd) cast second level spells?

I see two potential answers. First, and the most obvious, is (I think - I don't have the book in front of me) 8th level. That's when he is finally able to cast his second level spellthief spells. However, he is able to steal second level spells at 4th level. The ability descripion says something to the effect of He can steal the spell, then later cast it himself on a subsequent turn.

Is stealing (and therefore being able to cast) a second level spell at fourth level enough to qualify the spellthief for feats that require casting second level spells, or PrCs that require casting second level spells (when he satisfies other requirements as well)? Or is this class stuck until 8th level or beyond for the "can cast spells" requirements?

[Mr. Friendly]

He can cast the stolen spell as soon as he can steal it. He just needs the requisite Ability Modifier.

Here is the Class, online at Wizards.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a

[ZeroNumerous]

Yes, but the question is: "Can a spellthief PrC into something that requires the ability to cast second level spells at 4th level?", correct?

I don't believe that's true, primarily because he can't actually cast the spell. He just takes it from a mage who can.

[Gaiwecoor]

Yes, but the question is: "Can a spellthief PrC into something that requires the ability to cast second level spells at 4th level?", correct?

Correct. The question is "Does the ability to steal then cast a second level spell satisfy feat / PrC requirements of 'Able to cast second level spells?'"

Thanks, Friendly, the link makes posting this a whole lot easier:

After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell...

So, although the text very explicitly states that the spellthief is the one casting it, you think it doesn't count? I somewhat understand the reasoning behind it, I just thought it seemed like the casting of other people's spells would fit the requirements. Not that spellthief is a great class to try to take into a spellcasting PrC...

[Mr. Friendly]

Sorry, I seemed to have missed the point with my earlier posting....

At any rate, here is how I would rule it....

I would tell the player, "No, it doesn't qualify"

If the player kept going and insisted, I would say.. "Ok, fine. It qualifies." Then smile. I would allow it, but the PC gains the benefits of the PrC for only so long as he has a stolen spell to cast. Much like having a feat granted by an item and using that to sneak into a PrC, when the item is destroyed, class abilities are lost. So it would be in this case.

I don't know how RAW that is, but that's RAI by me.

[tainsouvra]

Sorry, I seemed to have missed the point with my earlier posting....

At any rate, here is how I would rule it....

I would tell the player, "No, it doesn't qualify"

If the player kept going and insisted, I would say.. "Ok, fine. It qualifies." Then smile. I would allow it, but the PC gains the benefits of the PrC for only so long as he has a stolen spell to cast. Much like having a feat granted by an item and using that to sneak into a PrC, when the item is destroyed, class abilities are lost. So it would be in this case.

I don't know how RAW that is, but that's RAI by me.

With the addition of making sure the player knew that's how it worked, I'd be willing to consider the same in that situation.

[Chronos]

Not that spellthief is a great class to try to take into a spellcasting PrC...

There's at least one case where this is very significant. A few levels in Arcane Trickster would be a big help to a Spellthief, but it requires Mage Hand, and the Spellthief's own casting doesn't include cantrips. So if stolen spells count, then you could take Arcane Trickster based on a stolen Mage Hand, but if they don't count, then you'd have to take a one-level-dip into something that does have cantrips, or pull some other trick of dubious legality (counting Greater Mage Hand, learning Mage Hand as a 1st-level spell, etc.).

[Gaiwecoor]

... So if stolen spells count, then you could take Arcane Trickster based on a stolen Mage Hand...

And I think this is the most compelling argument against allowing it that I've yet heard Sure, it's ultra-specific, but it lays out the effect of allowing stolen spells to counts as "able to cast." Sir, I commend you for your insight.

Of course, that makes taking Eldritch Theurge a beast.. it wouldn't be available until 12th level..