New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 77
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    A thought I have sometimes is how exactly the result of a die roll should be interpreted. I'll say ahead of time that the correct answer is probably "it depends", but it's interesting to think about.

    A die roll represents all the various unaccounted for things that determine success and failure in a task. It's probably best if I use an example of a task

    Bob tries to use an axe to quickly chop a hole in a wooden fence so he can escape from his pursuers. Mechanically, Bob has a strength score and the task is given a DC, Bob rolls the dice according to whatever system is being played and determines success and failure.

    In this case Success means Bob get a hole big enough to squeeze through before his pursuers catch up with him, failure means he does not.

    But narrative, the roll of the dice could mean any number of things

    A) It could represent Bob's strength and skill in the moment. There's plenty of variables in how well a given person can do a task at any given time. A high roll might mean that he's surging with adrenaline, swinging the axe skillfully and with all the strength he can muster to break through the boards, a low roll might mean he's not feeling it right now, his muscles cramp as he swings the axe, his grip is wrong, or he's just tired and simply can't muster much strength to swing the heavy axe.

    Often such things are represented beforehand with bonuses and penalties, but they can get wrapped up in the narrative resolution of the die roll.

    B) We could also assume everything about Bob is represented by his character sheet and any circumstantial penalties. In this case, the die roll could represent external factors not previously established by the narrative. A high roll might indicate the fence is made of thin, fragile wood, or already has holes in it that Bob just needs to widen. Meanwhile a low roll might mean the fence is well built out of thick sturdy planks. Since the test here is not just "Can Bob break through the fence" but "Can Bob break through the fence in time", the die roll could also be measuring how fast the pursuers are catching up with him.

    The downside of this approach is that, theoretically, all those things (The sturdiness of the fence, the sharpness of the axe, the time before the pursuers get there) should be accounted for when the GM set the DC for the roll.

    C) the third approach is to say that the die roll must always narratively represent some form of dumb luck. Everything about the character should be represented by their stats, everything about the scenario should be represented by the DC, and the die roll must account for things that could not have been established before the attempt was made.
    In this case, a high roll might indicate that the pursuers were slowed down in some way, while a low roll might indicate that Bob drops the axe at some point, or accidentally gets it stuck between two planks while he swings.


    Which approach you use can make a pretty major difference. For example, if Alice is searching a crime scene for clues and fails, A strict use of Method A tells us that there are no clues Alice can find right now, Method B tells us that Alice simply isn't good enough to find any clues, and Method C tells us that Alice COULD have found clues, but happened to look in the wrong places this time around.

    Under Method A, Alice might be able to find clues if she tries again later. Under Method B, the clues are too hard for Alice, or any less-skilled investigators than her to find, and under Method C, Alice, or anybody else, might be able to succeed trying again later simply by happening to look in different places.


    It also depends on whether you allow die rolls to establish previously unestablished things. For example:


    Bob has been bitten by a snake. Carol has received medical training, and is trying to identify the correct antidote for this snake's venom. For the purpose of this example, we assume that if Carol knows the correct antivenom, she is capable of acquiring or making it.

    Under Method A, the test is whether Carol can, in the moment, recall (or otherwise make a good enough guess at) the treatment for this particular venom. Success establishes that she HAS been taught how to treat this particular venom, Failure means she may or may not know how to treat the venom, but she can't recall it right now.

    Method B would assume Carol's competency is a constant, with the die roll determining how obscure this particular snake is. A success may indicate that the snake is common enough that Carol was taught how to treat it, while a failure may indicate that the snake is exotic, and only somebody with specialist training would know how to treat it.

    Method C would basically be saying "What are the chances Carol was taught about the venom of this snake?" Success means it was one of the species she was taught about, failure means it wasn't.

    This is relevant because if the next day, Alice gets bit by the same type of snake, Method A tells us Carol should get to reroll, while methods B and C say that we've already checked to see if Carol knows how to treat this venom.


    As I said at the start, most GM's are going to use some combination of these three approaches, but I've got some general thoughts on when to emphasize different parts of the die roll


    Method A is best when you want to keep a serious tone, and want to emphasize the general competence of the character in question. "With a surge of strength, Bob breaks through the fence and escapes" makes Bob's player feel good, similarly, "Bob is winded and exhausted from the chase, he can't quite muster the strength to swing the axe hard or fast enough" keeps the focus on Bob.

    It's best used when the result lines up with what is expected from the character's stats. If Bob is a strong character and succeeds, as a GM you want to make the player feel rewarded for picking an approach that uses that strength. If Bob is a physically weak character and fails, keeping the focus on Bob is probably correct if you want to keep a serious tone.

    Method B is the inverse of Method A, and is best used if you want to keep a serious tone, but the result of the roll is an outlier that goes beyond what is expected. If Bob has a high strength bonus but rolls exceptionally low, it makes more sense to put the focus of the failure outside the character. Rather than say "Oh, I guess Bob is just super weak right now", establish external forces that control the outcome. Similarly, if Bob succeeds despite a low strength, it can make more sense to say the fence was rotten and thin.

    Method C is a tricky one. In general, it creates a more lighthearted, comedic tone. It's generally best used for extreme results, good or bad, and it's sometimes good for a quick chuckle, but overusing it can wear thin.
    An especially big risk with it is that players can end up feeling robbed of credit for their character's successes. If a character is working within their specialty, but the GM keeps ascribing success to random chance, you'll reach the point where the player doesn't feel like they're playing master swordsman, just somebody who keeps getting lucky with their sword.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Ideally, a die roll represents the specific undetermined or random elements of that particular momentary action OR any previously undetermined things which the roll is intended to permanently determine going forward. Only for that case, do you not have side-effects of rolls which would make it matter e.g. the order in which rolls occur or whether a roll is provoked or not at different moments. So basically, that could be things whose details are going to be erased shortly after the moment of the roll (like someone's specific posture when an attack is incoming, etc).

    However, that ideal isn't always realizable, or worth putting ahead of other considerations.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    My default is a combination of B and C.

    If I'm calling for a roll at all (yes, including saving throws and attack rolls), the outcome is uncertain in some material[1] way. The d20 represents that uncertainty. That could be either the pure sub-abstraction noise (no, I'm not going to include things like the exact footing[2] when you make an attack roll. Nor am I going to consider things like exactly all the distractions in the environment that may help or hinder one side.

    In general[3], I start with the presumption that every actor is trying their best at that particular moment on everything they attempt to do (or refrain from doing). The parts of exactly what the "best you can do at that particular moment" that don't vary with time (or vary much more slowly than the action) are written on the character sheets or are part of the pre-determined Target Numbers (including circumstantial penalties/bonuses, although I happen to hate numerical circumstantial modifiers). So the d20 roll represents all those things that are either impossible to determine in advance with any accuracy or that vary on a similar timescale or faster than the action of the game. A characters' baseline ability to dodge, block, evade, parry, or otherwise deflect incoming attacks is summed up in their AC. Similarly, the character's baseline ability to harm another actor with an attack is summed up in their attack modifier. Everything else goes into the d20.

    [1] I'm not going to call for a check if the uncertainty is, for example, much smaller than the range of the d20. If the best possible set of circumstances means that you have a 95% chance of success and the worst possible set of circumstances means that you have a 75% chance of success...I'm not going to make you roll unless the consequences for failure are very high. You just succeed. This is not symmetric, however--as long as the character has at least 5% chance of success (ballparked), I'll let them roll. Because I believe in heroic characters doing heroic things. What I'm asking is "is there any even remotely-plausible way they could succeed?" If so, they get to try. On the other side (auto-success), I'm asking "would failure make substantial sense for this character in these circumstances?"

    Another factor is the consequences--if the consequences for failure aren't interesting (don't materially alter the situation in one way or another), you'll succeed without a roll. If success is meaningless...well...that's rare. But generally people try to do things they consider meaningful. Even if just for comedic effect.

    [2] not just "standing on reasonable footing on dirt floors" but "there's a pebble 3 inches ahead of your right foot, just where you'd have to move to make that lunge".

    [3] this is rebuttable, but generally if you're intentionally not doing your best but want to still possibly succeed I'll just call for disadvantage. If you're not trying to succeed, we'll just narrate what you're doing instead. Unless success would be extremely humorous[4]. In which case you'll roll if there's some chance you may succeed anyway. But probably at disadvantage.

    [4] and the situation is generally harmless, except in extremely unusual circumstances. I'm not trying to make characters out as buffoons. They do that just fine on their own.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2016

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Assuming for the moment that certain variables have not already been pre-determined because of story needs.

    For tasks done in the moment, I generally prefer method A. If it’s a repeatable action the question shouldn’t be ‘can I succeed’ but ‘how long will it take to succeed’.

    For tasks done with planning and deliberation I generally prefer method B. In which case the PC with their current state of information and equipment are unable to perform the task. Although I will allow the players to re-roll if they can get access further and better ability to handle the situation.

    If the situation is exotic and unusual then I prefer method C. If I can’t reasonably explain it setting appropriate narrative terms, then the hand of fate intervened.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Yora's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Germany

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Dice rolls produce uncertainty. Some things will probably work out as you intend them, other things will probably not work out as you intend them. When a game includes dice rolls, the decision to attempt a given action needs to take into account the possible consequences of failing at it. Having to make a judgement between possible gains and possible costs is what creates tension.
    By rolling dice, the consequences of actions are also partly taken out of the GM's hand. It means that the GM doesn't decide everything that happens on personal preference or whim, which gives the players agency in the game rather than having to guess what the GM wants.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Bob tries to use an axe to quickly chop a hole in a wooden fence so he can escape from his pursuers.
    The roll represents whether the pressure of the situation gets to him or not. This is kind of like whether or not you make that five foot putt when you have ten dollars on the line but only five dollars in your pocket.

    Notice: I used a lot fewer words to describe what the roll does for resolving the situation. I am inclined to feel that there is a lot of overthinking being engaged in here.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-10-28 at 07:11 AM.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Fiery Diamond's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Imagination
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    I prefer a combination of A and C. I don't like B, because I very much dislike "but actually, there was a pebble there that you stepped on funny: that's why you failed your Reflex Save!" sorts of adding details to the scene after the fact. If Bob is chopping at the fence, the fence's sturdiness is a predetermined factor, it doesn't magically get more or less sturdy after he makes the roll. The only time I ever use anything resembling B is when a task should be nearly impossible, but I allow a roll anyway on the tiny chance they could succeed by the mechanics, and they end up succeeding: then I have it be a combination of A, B, and C: the roll then represents skill, luck, and the character having the in-the-moment burst of competence to take advantage of minute factors I hadn't planned for but add in to explain how success was possible in the first place.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    I think where B comes in (and someone touched on this earlier) is the time factor. There are going to be some things that, given enough time to act, the question is automatically solved (you can certainly break down that wooden fence with your axe). Your strength and weapon isn't in question, and how sturdy the fence is isn't in question. But that doesn't mean that you're going to be able to break a person sized hole into it in one round of chopping. I suppose we could lump a bit of A and C in there as well, but in this case, it's not whether you actually can do something or not, but whether you can achieve that thing in the time allotted.

    There can certainly but a fair amount of C (dumb luck) involved, especially in combat situations, but I can also see a lot of A. I'm not sure if I'd describe that as just being stronger/better in that moment, but there are certainly cases where from moment to moment you just "see" a combat situation more clearly than you did a moment before. Some of that can be random lucky openings, but not all of it. From years of fencing, I know for a fact that sometimes you'll just get a sense for how the other fighter is going to react, and can literally see a sequence of moves that will allow for a hit (I extend into his 4, he will parry to his left, I'll redirect to 7, anticipate his move and shift to 8, then just slide up his blade as he more or less guides me right into his chest). That's not a random thing in the environment (no pebbles involved), but sometimes just normal movement in combat will open up opportunities and you take advantage of it. To me, that's what you're doing with a to-hit roll in combat. Obviously, if we were standing still and you were just swinging at a dummy, you'd hit, right? So it's something else we're determining here.

    I think in broader terms, rolls are just abstractions. As a game mechanic, they allow us to exchange resources spent with gains achieved. You spend X time doing something, you get Y result. Each individual roll could include a lot of different factors, and I suppose you can make this as complex as you want. And yeah, it's never going to be perfect. And as a GM I never hesitate to just tell players "you can just do this", or "you can't possibly do this", if that's an appropriate answer. And as a corollary to the B condition, if they have enough time, they can just do things automatically. Even things that may be difficult. I hand any random person a Rubik's cube and enough time, and they will eventually solve it. I had you a set of lock picks and a basic lock, you'll eventually figure it out and open the lock. These may be things you have zero skill/experience with, but are things that as long as you understand the concept of what you're trying to do, you should be able to do, the only question is how much time it takes.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    A die roll represents the GM being uncertain if a player's declared task for their character should automatically succeed or automatically fail. So they need some weighted randomness to determine if it's a success or failure. That weighting should be done based on the things the player has declared the character to be good or mediocre or bad at, and by the GM's judgement of the likely overall difficulty of the declared action independent of the character involved.*

    That's it. It doesn't represent anything in universe. It represents something meta, rules for weighting a GM's uncertainty about success.

    *Almost all systems have a method for the GM to adjust difficulty. It's just very well hidden or an easily overlooked footnote in some.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    I’m not even sure where to start. How about… Bob and the fence?

    There can be rolls to determine formerly undefined variables, like how sturdy / rotten a fence is, or whether the docking shuttle is filled with imperial stormtroopers or federation diplomats or whatever. And I’ll make those rolls as GM. However, Bob’s roll to attack the fence should not establish such facts, because Bob’s attack has nothing to do with causing such.

    However, what Bob’s attack roll could establish is whether he’s attacking a strong or weak point of a variable-strength fence. Like “critical success - Bob’s first swing opened the gate he didn’t realize he was standing at” if Bob is unfamiliar with the fence, and Bob’s player didn’t specify where they were attacking it (including the lack of a battle map). I accept this notion because such is technically part of Bob’s attack, even if it’s stretching things slightly.

    Logically, if Bob attacks the fence long enough, eventually he will break it down. Trying to have the method you use to describe the action determine whether retries are possible is putting the cart before the horse. Of course Bob can retry… for as long as it takes the clown spider demons they’re fleeing to kill the civilians depending on our axe-wielding Hero.

    And it’s probably fair for Bob to narrate that the approaching clown spider demons are getting to him as an excuse for why he failed? But doing so opens up whole new ranges of situational modifiers, like the clown spider demons taking actions to ratchet up that fear (or critically failing like a certain Horcrux), or others to try to calm that fear. So it’s… iffy.

    Now let’s look at Carol and her venom treatment. “Does she know this particular toxin’s antitoxin?” I find this question as stupid as every other Knowledge skill.

    So, imagine if Bob’s player made his Knowledge:GM roll, and had Carol’s player a) do research on snake venom, and b) talk about it in-character before this scene. Carol could have previously established, through exposition, that she knows the correct treatment for every kind of snake venom, and has the appropriate medicines packed (possibly longhand, actually manually listing every venom and antitoxin). So, if the roll is to determine what Carol knows, when Bob gets bitten, there’s no need for a Medicae roll, right?

    As for spotting clues… some idiot off the street can often find things trained professionals miss on their first pass, so I reject the notion of “tried and failed means nobody of equal or lesser skill gets to roll anymore”, regardless of how it’s described. See also “Mulan succeeding by taking a different approach, despite being physically inferior”.

    That’s it for my first pass. So obviously nobody of equal or lesser skill will ever contribute anything to this thread ever again.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    61.2° N, 149.9° W
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Like Tanarii I'm taking the question at a different level. The op feels like it's answering a question about how to narrate the results of a roll, not what the roll represents.

    To me, a roll represents the users of the system asking a question they don't all know and agree on the answer to. The question is generally one of three things;
    1. Here and now, with one try, can the character(s), do this one thing.*
    2. How long does it take the character(s) to do this thing.
    3. How well can the characters do this thing.

    You can frame the question you're asking the dice in different ways. Using the original bob-axe-fence-zombies (BAFZ from now on) you can ask;
    1. In the time bob has before the zoms get there can he make a hole at all?
    2. Will the zoms get there before bob makes a hole?
    3. How fast can bob make a hole?
    4. Can bob make a big enough hole before the zoms get there?
    5. In the time bob has before the zoms get there can he make a big enough hole to squeeze through?
    6. Can bob just whack you in the leg and run around the fence while you distract the zoms since you're apparently just standing there with a stopwatch & clipboard asking these stupid questions while he's trying to escape?

    How the BAFZ question is put can dictate, depending on system, what precisely gets rolled. You can roll bob's axe &or strength damage against the fence, you can roll the fence making a save vs axe, you can roll the running speed of the zombies, you can roll how fast bob chops, you can roll to see if bob hits the fence skillfully enough to do anything to it.

    Those all presume something d&d-like, I had a game once where players & gm got coins to bet over the session. A player would get free coins in a scene based on character traits, gear, or using major resources, and could throw in their per-session coins. The gm had coins for how many things were opposing the characters and... some other stuff. Then you tossed all the coins and went highest number of heads to lowest narrating what happened with the later narrators not getting to contravene anything already said. Its been a long time, pretty game & interesting setting, but not something a lot of people sermed to want to play. But it turns the "what a roll represents" answer into "well, all of it".

    One general question I have is: How does the op relate to those game systems like the Star Wars one (sorry, unable to recall exact details tonight) with custom dice that generate a number of complications & bennies along with the standard pass/fail results? Or something like Paranoia where the players just roll to blackjack against their character's number for that activity and the gm doesn't (normal rules) get to say any numbers**?

    * the 'now', 'one try', and 'one thing' don't have to be as fine grained & short as a sword swing. It just ought to be something using mostly one major variable, where you can't stop once started, and don't get a chance to retry any steps. So you could, in some systems, throw one do-or-die roll for an eight hour heart transplant surgery that depends on the surgeon's skill, has some factor(s) preventing stopping part way through, and there's no "well that isn't working let's try this other thing".

    ** for the unfamiliar; its a d20 'roll as high as possible up to your number' system. So shooting someone with a gun is "slug throwers (violence)", the character has a 4-19 rating in their "violence" stat and if they have a bonus or penalty to the "slug thrower" category then they use that. Thus a character with a 13 in "slug thrower" shoots a gun and rolls the d20, 1-12 is a hit, 13 is a really good hit, 14-19 is a fail, and 20 is a really bad fail. As a fast paced comedy system it works great.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    The die does not role-play. It just represents randomness. It's up to the GM and the players to interpret it in gameworld terms.

    I once ran a game of Flashing Blades. The rogue decided to introduce himself to the duke's daughter, so he muscled his way through several of her noble suitors and asked to make an Etiquette skill roll. He did not have the Etiquette skill, which is the equivalent of cross-class for him.

    So he was using a cross-class skill he didn't know, having already behaved badly, in direct competition with several masters of the skill. And then he rolled a fumble.

    I said, "You introduce yourself, look into her eyes soulfully, take her hand, raise it to your lips to kiss it, and f*rt."

    So does the fumble roll represent f*rting? No, of course not. It just represented the worst possible result. I, as GM, came up with the role-playing interpretation.

    The die does not role-play.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2022-10-30 at 07:50 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Fiery Diamond's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    The Imagination
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    So does the fumble roll represent f*rting? No, of course not. It just represented the worst possible result. I, as GM, came up with the role-playing interpretation.
    And some (many?) people would say that's a distinction without a difference. You wouldn't have come up with the fart if he hadn't rolled the fumble, therefore, the fumble was responsible for the fart. Whether you use the word "represent" or not, one caused the other. Just because you were a middleman who chose "fart" rather than something else to be the "worst possible result" doesn't change that.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    The die does not role-play.

    That's my main thesis, which your argument doesn't address.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiery Diamond View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    So does the fumble roll represent f*rting? No, of course not. It just represented the worst possible result. I, as GM, came up with the role-playing interpretation.
    And some (many?) people would say that's a distinction without a difference. You wouldn't have come up with the fart if he hadn't rolled the fumble, therefore, the fumble was responsible for the fart. Whether you use the word "represent" or not, one caused the other. Just because you were a middleman who chose "fart" rather than something else to be the "worst possible result" doesn't change that.
    Except that it is a clear, unambiguous difference. The die came up with, "There is a critical failure." Nothing else. Given a critical failure, I came up with the f*rting. Another GM with the same die roll might have said that he tripped, or just stammered, or got himself in a duel, or spilled her drink on her dress, or that his pants came down, or any one of a number of things.

    Since other GMs would have given different results with the same die roll, then that specific result didn't come from the die roll. You cannot claim (with any justification) that the die was responsible for choosing that critical failure over any other possible critical failure.

    You said that "the fumble was responsible for the fart." You could have said, with equal justification, that I was responsible for it. Or that the player was responsible for it. Or that the rule about critical failures was responsible for it. Or that the set-up of the ball was responsible for it. Or that the slipperiness of the table was responsible for it. Or that ...

    But enough.

    When I want a cold drink, the contents of the refrigerator is responsible for my range of choices. I am responsible for which choice I make within that range.
    The contents of the snack machine determines which candy bars are available. I determine which of the available ones I will buy.
    The 30-theater movie complex decides which movies are available to me. I decide which of those movies to go watch.
    And the die determined that there would be a critical failure. I decided which critical failure it would be.

    That's a distinction that is a clear, unambiguous difference.

    I repeat: The die does not role-play.
    Last edited by Jay R; 2022-10-31 at 12:45 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    One general question I have is: How does the op relate to those game systems like the Star Wars one (sorry, unable to recall exact details tonight) with custom dice that generate a number of complications & bennies along with the standard pass/fail results? Or something like Paranoia where the players just roll to blackjack against their character's number for that activity and the gm doesn't (normal rules) get to say any numbers**?
    Question isn't really changed, although it does become more relevant


    To use the BAFZ scenario, in a star-wars style system, Bob might succeed at breaking open the fence in time, but get a complication, what that complication looks like will change depending on how you interpret the role of the dice in the narrative.

    Its' a difference between "You succeed but you screwed up somehow", "You succeed, but things are a bit worse than you realize" or "you succeed, but you had some bad luck".

    The first scenario might mean that Bob breaks down the fence, but cuts himself getting through the hole. The second, Bob might break down the fence but there are a few zombies on the other side attracted by the noise. The third might mean that Bob's axe breaks as he chops down the fence.

    In paranoia, we're dealing with the same as the basic scenario, the dice have produced a good/bad roll, it is up to the GM to translate that to the narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    The die does not role-play.

    That's my main thesis, which your argument doesn't address.
    Correct, the Die does not role-play, it produces a number which, in conjunction with the game system, produces a result. Pass or Failure, Triumphant success or critical fumble, succeed with consequences or fail with progress, ect ect ect.

    The question I'm asking in this thread is how one should translate the die roll INTO some role-playing because, as you've noted, the die doesn't role-play, but the GM does, and how they choose to interpret the roll does matter.


    The die roll comes up with "The worst possible result", you decided that would be a fart, something partially involuntary, so, a mix of A and C to use my OP, the result on the die means that the worst possible thing that could happen has happened. You could also have said "Unaware of the complex rules of decorum around initiating physical contact, You just grabbed the Duke's Daughter's hand without permission, that is the Worst Possible decision you might have made in this situation". The result on the die is translated to say that the PC's chosen approach was, in fact, the worst possible approach.

    You could also have said "One of the Suitors you just shoved your way past is the famously short-tempered Captain Irrata of the Duke's Guard, you made him spill his drink on himself, he challenges you to a duel". The result on the die is translated to mean that the situation is as bad as it could be for what the PC did.

    You chose the Fart, which means the "Worst Possible Result" is shame and embarrassment, effectively cutting the PC off from any further schmoozing at the ball, but they're not getting thrown out by the guards or anything.

    Similarly, how would you have interpreted a very good roll in that situation? Perhaps the Rogue is just so charming that he managed to overwhelm the offense of his actions with dashing good looks and a gentle smile. Perhaps the Duke's Daughter was in the middle of a horribly boring conversation and is grateful that somebody came along to rescue her from it. These options produce very different experiences for the Rogue. The first is a power fantasy, saying "Yeah, you have no idea what to do here, but you're charming enough that you succeed anyway", the second says "Yeah, you got lucky".
    Last edited by BRC; 2022-10-31 at 10:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Telok's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    61.2° N, 149.9° W
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    In paranoia, we're dealing with the same as the basic scenario, the dice have produced a good/bad roll, it is up to the GM to translate that to the narrative.
    Thanks for the bit on the SW system. I've been adjacent to it but never gotten to try it myself because I'm the only one I know for at least the last 15 years to run anything but d&d or direct derivatives. Your answers fit with the way I see rolls, asking the system a question & interpreting output, but neither of us was addressing it the way the op did.

    With the op talking about the roll's modifiers & randomization representing one of; the character's abilities, situational conditions, or the nature of the obstacle... how do these other systems map to that? Like the Paranoia edition I have on my shelf doesn't do modifiers based on the situation or obstacle, the only number is the character's score that you're throwing the d20 at. It looks then like the character's ability is static and the situation & obstacle are ignored except that they exist at all (hence the call fir a roll).

    I suppose it probably comes down to how much detail the system cares about simulating. A D&D sword swing cares about gear on both sides, skill on both sides, base natural ability on both sides, and environment on both sides, adding up to at least 8 different variables before magic & special abilities enter into it. On the other hand it only cares about the "difficulty" of something and the character's parts (and gear only in some editions) for most non-combat bits, for usually less than half the variables no matter what you're doing or how milti-step/complex it actually it. Other systems may only care about how good a character should be at something within the narrative.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    I think the die represents unknowns.

    That could be unknowns about the situation, things beneath the level of abstraction, unexpected events, whatever.

    What the die and system give you, primarily is constraints on what happens, not an actual result. In some cases (GURPS) those constraints are pretty narrow, but mostly they're fairly wide.

    So, if there's not enough unknowns to make it worth checking, don't roll. And, as a matter of taste "gross incompetence" is not worth rolling for.

    So, in the case of failure, I typically prefer to narrate results as the result of opposing effort, environmental factors, or just the task being plain difficult. Master archer trying to hit a target? You hit it. Threading 20 axe handles? That's a roll, and you might fail, but that's because it's hard. Trying to hit a target while dodging things thrown at you? You might miss because something hits you, or you just might not get a chance to shoot at all. But it won't be because you're bad at shooting.

    This can of course be tweaked for the specific genre you're playing.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Wyoming

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    To me, the only reason to roll dice is for two reasons, and both must be in force:

    1. I need to know if a character succeeds or fails at a task
    2. Something interesting could happen if they fail

    If neither of these things apply, no dice rolls are needed. The PCs and I can narrate it away, with the GM getting final say on the actual events that occur.

    So, anything beyond that is semantics to me.
    *This Space Available*

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The question I'm asking in this thread is how one should translate the die roll INTO some role-playing because, as you've noted, the die doesn't role-play, but the GM does, and how they choose to interpret the roll does matter.
    The simple but uninformative answer is "DM judgment and imagination". You have split the options into three categories. I don't see how limiting my options to one of those three serves the game.

    I choose the result that in my judgment will improve the game for the players.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The die roll comes up with "The worst possible result", ...
    First, let me deal with a red herring. The die roll comes up with the worst of the twenty most likely results. The worst possible result would be far beyond what might reasonably expected to happen. As I said in my "Rules for DMs":

    7. Rolling a 20 doesn’t mean a one-in-a-million result; it means a one in 20 result. Rolling a 1 isn’t automatic failure; it’s the worst of the twenty most likely results.
    a. Rolling dice for the impossible assumes that there’s a 5% chance that you can jump to the moon. Rolling dice for the trivial assumes that there’s a 5% chance that you can’t open your closet door.


    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    The die roll comes up with "The worst possible result", you decided that would be a fart, something partially involuntary, so, a mix of A and C to use my OP, the result on the die means that the worst possible thing that could happen has happened. You could also have said "Unaware of the complex rules of decorum around initiating physical contact, You just grabbed the Duke's Daughter's hand without permission, that is the Worst Possible decision you might have made in this situation". The result on the die is translated to say that the PC's chosen approach was, in fact, the worst possible approach.

    You could also have said "One of the Suitors you just shoved your way past is the famously short-tempered Captain Irrata of the Duke's Guard, you made him spill his drink on himself, he challenges you to a duel". The result on the die is translated to mean that the situation is as bad as it could be for what the PC did.

    You chose the Fart, which means the "Worst Possible Result" is shame and embarrassment, effectively cutting the PC off from any further schmoozing at the ball, but they're not getting thrown out by the guards or anything.
    Good example. The "worst possible result" would be getting arrested and spending the rest of his life locked in a cell in the Chateau d'if. But that result is far less likely than 5%. I chose a legitimate result representing the bottom 5%.

    The real answer is to treat it like a story-telling element. Possible reasons for a specific choice are:
    It seems the most likely result.
    To further the story.
    For a brief moment of comic relief that doesn't permanently harm the PC.
    To introduce a plot element.
    To move past an incident that has no further entertainment value or plot significance.
    ... or a host of others.

    But I won't limit my choices to fit into category A, B, or C. I will choose the best thing I can think of to improve the game for my players. In that case it was to get a quick laugh and move on, without permanent damage to the player (except messing up any chance with her).

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    Similarly, how would you have interpreted a very good roll in that situation? Perhaps the Rogue is just so charming that he managed to overwhelm the offense of his actions with dashing good looks and a gentle smile. Perhaps the Duke's Daughter was in the middle of a horribly boring conversation and is grateful that somebody came along to rescue her from it. These options produce very different experiences for the Rogue. The first is a power fantasy, saying "Yeah, you have no idea what to do here, but you're charming enough that you succeed anyway", the second says "Yeah, you got lucky".
    If he had rolled the best number (which is a 1, in that game), I'd have come up with a somewhat unlikely result that fit within the situation of a clueless rogue, a cross-class skill he didn't know, and competition with several masters of the skill. He would probably have interrupted an insolent rival who was insulting her father, thereby pleasing the daughter despite her recognizing the PC's awkwardness. Later, that insolent courtier would probably have words with him, possibly leading to a duel, or some other plot hook. [The PC was not trying to charm the jerk, so the excellent roll doesn't affect him. Besides, I get annoyed when a rival makes me look bad in front of the girl we are both interested in; so would the jerk.] In the longer term, the daughter might decide to take the PC on as a project, to "improve" him. I could use that to generate lots of dangers and challenges.

    But it's a judgment call, based on everything in the situation, as well as what the GM knows is coming but the players don't. I can't make a general rule for it. Also from my Rules for DMs:

    10. A role-playing game is run by rules. But it isn't made out of rules; it's made out of ideas, characters, and imagination.

    Don't invent a rule for handling the results of the die. Use your own ideas and imagination to invent a entertaining result that fits these characters.

    But be careful to choose it to entertain the players, not you. One final quote from my Rules for DMs:

    15. Your job isn’t to create something hilarious to you. Your job is to create something fun and challenging for the players.

    I hope this long-winded discussion helps.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Corvallis, OR
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    [snip good stuff]

    But it's a judgment call, based on everything in the situation, as well as what the GM knows is coming but the players don't. I can't make a general rule for it. Also from my Rules for DMs:

    10. A role-playing game is run by rules. But it isn't made out of rules; it's made out of ideas, characters, and imagination.

    Don't invent a rule for handling the results of the die. Use your own ideas and imagination to invent a entertaining result that fits these characters.

    But be careful to choose it to entertain the players, not you. One final quote from my Rules for DMs:

    15. Your job isn’t to create something hilarious to you. Your job is to create something fun and challenging for the players.

    I hope this long-winded discussion helps.
    I completely agree with this whole post, and especially these last bits. The bold is most important IMO--it's too easy to try to interpret TTRPG "rules" like board game rules. As a binding thing that fully describes the possible interactions and "game state". They're...not. Rules are there to help the people keep track of how their situation fits into a could-be-real fictional state. Board game rules are the game; TTRPG "rules" are merely the UI elements and aids; the game itself lives in everyone's heads.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    On Paper
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post

    Good example. The "worst possible result" would be getting arrested and spending the rest of his life locked in a cell in the Chateau d'if. But that result is far less likely than 5%. I chose a legitimate result representing the bottom 5%.

    The real answer is to treat it like a story-telling element. Possible reasons for a specific choice are:
    It seems the most likely result.
    To further the story.
    For a brief moment of comic relief that doesn't permanently harm the PC.
    To introduce a plot element.
    To move past an incident that has no further entertainment value or plot significance.
    ... or a host of others.

    But I won't limit my choices to fit into category A, B, or C. I will choose the best thing I can think of to improve the game for my players. In that case it was to get a quick laugh and move on, without permanent damage to the player (except messing up any chance with her).
    Alright, good distinction, a 1 doesn't mean "The worst possible result" it means "The worst result you, as the GM, would give them in this circumstance"

    And sorry if I'm implying that you MUST use A,B, or C, those are just the ways I thought of to conceptualize this concept, and I do say in the OP that in most cases you are going to be combining them in some way. I'd love for other people to tell me other systems for thinking about how to translate die rolls into narrative results. I made this thread because it's something I do countless times every time I run a session, often without really thinking, but that has all sorts of implications. I don't think there's any Rule for handling this, just different approaches which have different effects and are best used in different situations.


    But going back into the talk of critical successes and fumbles, it does bring up another angle, and part of why I made this thread.

    Lets assume a 20 is the best possible reasonable result. Using my system (Just as an example), that means the result is some mix of "You did this as well as you reasonably could have", "The situation was as suited for your approach as it could have been" and "You got as lucky as you could have", and which it is produces different experiences. If Bob goes to chop a hole in the fence and "Does as well as he reasonably could have", then he chops it down as fast as the GM can imagine somebody like bob being able to chop a bob-sized hole in the fence, taking maybe 30 seconds or so. If he gets as lucky as he reasonably could have, then when he goes to chop he finds that the fence has a gate in it, and he's able to get through in 10 seconds or so.


    There is a related question about if the roll represents the degree to which you successfully perform the specific task, the degree to which you succeed at your general goal, or the degree to which the situation turns out to be a favorable result. Your example of the rogue and the duke's daughter is great for discussing this, but I'm going to build out the scenario a bit in ways that may very well not match your game to illustrate points.

    For the sake of this example, The Rogue, despite not being trained in courtly etiquette, is attempting to, as best they can, follow the rules of decorum while introducing themselves to the Duke's Daughter. That is why he is making an "Etiquette" roll here, rather than something like "Charm", because what's being tested is his ability to follow the rules of this social situation.

    His goal is to charm the Duke's Daughter, because it's known that her father dotes on her, and the PC's want him to believe their reports about some threat facing the land.

    So the specific task is "Follow Courtly Decorum", the immediate goal is "Charm the Duke's Daughter", the greater goal is "Improve the chances the Duke might take your report seriously".

    In one interpretation, the Rogue rolls a critical success, which means he flawlessly follows the rules of courtly decorum when introducing himself. By this result, he has established himself (perhaps falsly) as somebody that is familiar with the rules of this society, but that basically just puts him on even playing field with everybody else vying for her attention.

    By another, he has charmed her. Maybe his interruption provided a convenient excuse for her to get away from some boring conversation, or maybe she's sick of stuffy nobles and finds this charming commoner fascinating. This might cause problems down the line, perhaps the Duke ends up seeing this scoundrel as corrupting his beloved daughter.

    By a third, perhaps she politely brushes you off and returns to her prior conversation, but the Duke sees this and, recognizing the effort to show courtesy to his daughter, decides he likes you a little bit more.


    Edit: Expanding a bit,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    I choose the result that in my judgment will improve the game for the players.
    What I'm trying to unpack here is how different approaches to resolving dice rolls impacts the game for the players.

    Like, let's say you take a strict approach that the result of the die determines how good the result is for the players, with nothing else mattering.

    So, the Rogue goes up to talk to the Duke's Daughter and gets a Critical Success. The DM then narrates the following sequence

    "You stumble and trip, knocking into her as she takes a drink being offered by a servant, she accidentally splashes the drink in the servant's face and he starts freaking out, calling for a healer and shouting about poison! It's soon revealed that the servant is an assassin trying to poison the Duke's daughter! The duke is grateful that you saved his daughter and exposed this plot, even if you did it entirely by accident"

    That's certainly a very good outcome for the players, but it's not an especially satisfying one. The Rogue wasn't trying to uncover an assassination plot, heck they were not even trying to charm the Duke in that moment, just start a conversation with his daughter. It's also breaks verisimilitude pretty hard, being as it is a series of wild coincidences created out of thin air to justify an outcome the DM thought "Worthy" of a Critical Success. I wouldn't call it a result that improves the game for the players.

    Similarly, if the Rogue tries it, rolls a critical success, and gets told "You manage to introduce yourself without causing any problems, and are swiftly ignored", a not unreasonable "Best reasonable outcome" for somebody trying to do something completely out of their skillset, that's not great either. Sticking strictly to any given approach or rule is not going to work.

    So I want to unpack what sort of things GM's should be thinking about in pursuit of that goal of "Improving the game for players"
    Last edited by BRC; 2022-10-31 at 02:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsurion View Post
    I don't know if you've noticed, but pretty much everything BRC posts is full of awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    So, Astronaut, War Hero, or hideous Mantis Man, hop to it! The future of humanity is in your capable hands and or terrifying organic scythes.
    My Homebrew:Synchronized Swordsmen,Dual Daggers,The Doctor,The Preacher,The Brawler
    [/Center]

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    A thought I have sometimes is how exactly the result of a die roll should be interpreted. I'll say ahead of time that the correct answer is probably "it depends", but it's interesting to think about.

    A die roll represents all the various unaccounted for things that determine success and failure in a task. It's probably best if I use an example of a task

    Bob tries to use an axe to quickly chop a hole in a wooden fence so he can escape from his pursuers. Mechanically, Bob has a strength score and the task is given a DC, Bob rolls the dice according to whatever system is being played and determines success and failure.

    In this case Success means Bob get a hole big enough to squeeze through before his pursuers catch up with him, failure means he does not.

    But narrative, the roll of the dice could mean any number of things

    A) It could represent Bob's strength and skill in the moment. There's plenty of variables in how well a given person can do a task at any given time. A high roll might mean that he's surging with adrenaline, swinging the axe skillfully and with all the strength he can muster to break through the boards, a low roll might mean he's not feeling it right now, his muscles cramp as he swings the axe, his grip is wrong, or he's just tired and simply can't muster much strength to swing the heavy axe.

    Often such things are represented beforehand with bonuses and penalties, but they can get wrapped up in the narrative resolution of the die roll.

    B) We could also assume everything about Bob is represented by his character sheet and any circumstantial penalties. In this case, the die roll could represent external factors not previously established by the narrative. A high roll might indicate the fence is made of thin, fragile wood, or already has holes in it that Bob just needs to widen. Meanwhile a low roll might mean the fence is well built out of thick sturdy planks. Since the test here is not just "Can Bob break through the fence" but "Can Bob break through the fence in time", the die roll could also be measuring how fast the pursuers are catching up with him.

    The downside of this approach is that, theoretically, all those things (The sturdiness of the fence, the sharpness of the axe, the time before the pursuers get there) should be accounted for when the GM set the DC for the roll.

    C) the third approach is to say that the die roll must always narratively represent some form of dumb luck. Everything about the character should be represented by their stats, everything about the scenario should be represented by the DC, and the die roll must account for things that could not have been established before the attempt was made.
    In this case, a high roll might indicate that the pursuers were slowed down in some way, while a low roll might indicate that Bob drops the axe at some point, or accidentally gets it stuck between two planks while he swings.
    I think you're looking at it the wrong way here. To use your wood-chopping example, Bob's character sheet tells us how strong he is, if he has an axe suitable for chopping a wooden fence, and potentially how good he is at cutting through objects (system dependent). The DC or stats for the wood represent exactly what kind of wood the fence is made from, how good the condition is, and what sort of condition it is in. That's all fixed before the GM ever calls for a roll. What the die roll represents is the erratic nature of reality. People are not perfect machines that always execute every movment precisely as intended, so Bob might have failed to swing perfectly to use all his strength, or had the axe turn just slightly to rob some of the cutting power, or he might have missed the proper spot to split the fence just a little. A chunk of wood is not a homogeneous mass where every bit of it is identical, so Bob might have hit a subtly thicker or thinner part of the fence, or a section that's just a little bit harder because of a knot, or softer because of a void.

    Similarly, in your "search for clues" example, Alice's sheet represents her ability and training to find hidden things, and the DC of the clues represents how well hidden they are, while the die roll covers things like "did the torchlight throw a shadow in just the right way to obscure something, or did the dust in the room settle in just the way to make something easier to spot, or was Alice distracted by something that kept her from giving full attention".

    Fundamentally, nothing in reality is as cut and dry as raw stats would present it to be, and introducing a random element via die roll is an excellent way of reflecting all those nebulous factors that are way too fine-graned for any GM or system to directly reflect.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    So, the Rogue goes up to talk to the Duke's Daughter and gets a Critical Success. The DM then narrates the following sequence

    "You stumble and trip, knocking into her as she takes a drink being offered by a servant, she accidentally splashes the drink in the servant's face and he starts freaking out, calling for a healer and shouting about poison! It's soon revealed that the servant is an assassin trying to poison the Duke's daughter! The duke is grateful that you saved his daughter and exposed this plot, even if you did it entirely by accident"

    That's certainly a very good outcome for the players, but it's not an especially satisfying one. The Rogue wasn't trying to uncover an assassination plot, heck they were not even trying to charm the Duke in that moment, just start a conversation with his daughter. It's also breaks verisimilitude pretty hard, being as it is a series of wild coincidences created out of thin air to justify an outcome the DM thought "Worthy" of a Critical Success. I wouldn't call it a result that improves the game for the players.

    Similarly, if the Rogue tries it, rolls a critical success, and gets told "You manage to introduce yourself without causing any problems, and are swiftly ignored", a not unreasonable "Best reasonable outcome" for somebody trying to do something completely out of their skillset, that's not great either. Sticking strictly to any given approach or rule is not going to work.

    So I want to unpack what sort of things GM's should be thinking about in pursuit of that goal of "Improving the game for players"
    I think the key is to include both elements. On the one hand, the roll represents something the player has stated that the character is attempting to do. Nothing more. The GM should absolutely roleplay out the outcome, but it should be based on what was attempted. So if the player is attempting to charm the Duke's daughter, then success or failure (and degree of success/failure) should be purely based on that.

    Throwing in random external factors (like you stumbled and spilled the poison or something) is not a good way to do this. It's going to come off like the GM taking over the characters and narrating actions to them instead of just letting them run their own characters. If you want this to happen as part of your scenario, then by all means, run the charming the Duke's daughter bit, and then later have some fumbling NPC be the one to trip into the waiter and spill the poison. Having already charmed the daughter, this gives the PC an "in" to assist in the investigation of the plot, which is really the point of the scene in the first place.

    If you want the PC to be more actively involved in the discovery of the poison, then you have them make whatever perception rolls you decide may be appropriate to discovering something is "up" with the wine in some way, and then allow them to interceded. Of course, you can always play both sides and have the whole "someone stumbles and spills the poison" bit happen if the PCs *don't* detect the poison wine ahead of time (or fail to take action). Or have the poison attempt succeed, and now you're helping the daughter discover who poisoned her father (and perhaps utilizing some skills to save his life from the poison).

    There's tons of ways to do this, but the actual skill rolls should always be about the player telling the GM what they are trying to do, the GM determining an appropriate skill to use, difficulty involved, and whatever die roll and adjustments represent the attempt.

    And yes, these should always be for things in which the outcome is not certain. In cases where the thing being attempted is normal and easy, there's no need for a die roll, and for things that are impossible, no die roll either. The assumption for any die rolling is that the PC is attempting something that is possible within their skill set, but not guaranteed. And for the record, there are a ton of people in any profession who still manage to make mistakes, even in their own specialty. If the thing being done is at all "complex", there's always a chance of failure. Even if the person is an expert, has all the right gear, etc.

    Oh. And while it's not specifically in the topic of "what do die rolls represent", but is relevant to the example: I have a general rules for scenarios that I allow one and only one "unlikely event" to occur, typically the thing that sets off the scenario. So the random thing happening to reveal the poison plot works. The random badly injured stranger staggering over and happening to hand the PC the map to <whatever> before dying. Just happening to be there when the raid on the local village you were traveling through happens. These usually form "hooks" to adventures and are perfectly acceptable. I avoid allowing more random lucky/unlucky things to happen though, since that starts to feel to the players like you're leading them along, contriving chance to influence the flow of the adventure, and generally stomping all over probability *and* player choices/actions.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Firbolg in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
    So I want to unpack what sort of things GM's should be thinking about in pursuit of that goal of "Improving the game for players"
    Ah, an actionable goal. Ok then.

    Know your players. If they’re anything like me, minimize the number of rolls they need to make. Untrained Rogue Etiquette? Ask the Rogue how they would like to fail. Give them the rope to let their guaranteed failure have a point. Ork Bob takes his Choppa to the fence? Maybe the imperials get X meters closer, and, depending on distance, maybe that’s close enough that they get a salvo off at the grots following Hero Bob. Carol already rattled off every venom / antidote pair, and said she was carrying them all? Don’t have her roll a Knowledge check to see if she knows the correct antivenom, when obviously she does.

    In other words, the first step of “what a roll represents” is, in the abstract, “something that there’s a need for a roll for”. And how much that roll is “needed” may vary greatly.

    Once you understand why a roll is needed, well, seems to me everything will just flow naturally from that “why”.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I have a general rules for scenarios that I allow one and only one "unlikely event" to occur, typically the thing that sets off the scenario.
    That’s a very good rule to have. Some people take it even further, and it’s limited to “one per adventure”, or even “one per campaign”.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2022

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    That’s a very good rule to have. Some people take it even further, and it’s limited to “one per adventure”, or even “one per campaign”.
    I sometimes use "scenario" in different ways, but yeah, it's "once per adventure" with "adventure" being defined as the entire time that a group of characters meet up, decide to go do something together, and then proceed to do that thing. I'd also amend that to "random thing related to any one given adventure arc/storyline" as well. It's entirely possible that while our intrepid heroes are marching off following the map the random (now unfortunately deceased) stranger handed them, that some other completely unrelated random thing may happen. And that's allowable because there is always a chance of something else happening "along the way", right?

    What's not allowable is having another totally random thing occur which is absolutely necessary for the initial "adventure" to continue or advance. One random thing along a story arc is a hook. It's why this particular group of people are following that arc in the first place. If it wasn't you, it would be some other random group that happened upon that random thing. A second random thing strains credulity.

    And yeah. I get a "nails on the chalkboard" sensation when I see this happen (more frequently than it should) in TV shows and films. Grrr.... Bad writing! Bad writing! No biscuit!
    Last edited by gbaji; 2022-11-01 at 05:02 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Different abilities lend themselves better to different rulings:

    -Recalling info lends itself well to variable competency, a bird watcher for example may not be able to recognize a particular bird species, but are more likely than a less interested person, the roll represents if they have studied a particular bird and how much

    -Physical activities lends well to situational variability, even an experienced climber could be blindsided by a handhold giving and the like

    -social situations, being able to execute in the moment will vary even for the competent, political speeches are a good example as much of the effort spent is to reduce human error but off the cuff statements and gaffs still happen (Tony roll Deception, <rolls a 1>, "I am Iron Man")
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2022-11-01 at 10:22 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Stonehead's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    I want to add that A) wouldn't need to be strictly environmental factors. It could just be the fact that humans inconsistent creatures. IRL if you give me a bowling ball, I can get a strike probably 2 out of 10 frames. The environment for each frame is essentially the same, it's not like anyone heckles me or my shoes were untied when I miss. I just miss. No one hit's 100% of free throws, and there's usually not an easily identifiable reason why a player will miss one and not another. We as humans naturally look for justifications, even when they aren't always needed.

    Strictly from a story perspective, it's not super satisfying to say "He missed. Some times people just miss" but it is realistic. One of the things I really like about TTRPGs is that everyone seeing the die land on a 1 is enough justification for a failure. It doesn't feel unsatisfying (at least to me) when the wizard can't remember the name of some town even though he's smart. Everyone saw him roll poorly. And besides, it's realistic for everyone to forget things some times.

    Now, d20 systems go a bit overboard in variance some times, an 8 strength child should not beat an 18 strength bodybuilder in 30% of arm-wrestling contests, but that's a bit off topic.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonehead View Post
    Now, d20 systems go a bit overboard in variance some times, an 8 strength child should not beat an 18 strength bodybuilder in 30% of arm-wrestling contests, but that's a bit off topic.
    If a GM has a question about the result here, that variance is on the DM.

    Assuming that everything requires a roll was the 3e roll everything fallacy. And it didn't even in the d20 system, it was just a common fallacy under that system.

    The rules / dice are not a simulation system. The dice only represent DM uncertainty about the result.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonehead View Post
    Strictly from a story perspective, it's not super satisfying to say "He missed. Some times people just miss" but it is realistic.
    I think there's some subtlety involved here.

    For me, personally, it depends on the difficulty of the action. If the character is attempting something very difficult (starting at somewhere between 50-80% chance of failure) and they miss? They just miss. You tried a hard thing and, surprise surprise, it was hard.

    If they're trying something routine (starting at 50-80% chance of success) and fail? Blame the environment, the skills of their opposition, etc.

    I don't think the bowling example is actually really good, to be honest. There's a wide range of results we can get from bowling a frame, and a strike is closer to a "critical success" than anything. A better model would probably be something like a roll to hit anything, modified by the pins left (so extremely low for the first ball), where the damage done is the number of pins knocked down, and then having skills to impact the number of pins hit, or determining that based on degree of success, or something like that.

    And pro bowlers don't hit gutters very often.
    "Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Stonehead's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What exactly should a Roll Represent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    If a GM has a question about the result here, that variance is on the DM.

    Assuming that everything requires a roll was the 3e roll everything fallacy. And it didn't even in the d20 system, it was just a common fallacy under that system.

    The rules / dice are not a simulation system. The dice only represent DM uncertainty about the result.
    I agree. Taking a 10/20 are very important rules. Just didn't spell it all out because it seemed off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    I think there's some subtlety involved here.

    For me, personally, it depends on the difficulty of the action. If the character is attempting something very difficult (starting at somewhere between 50-80% chance of failure) and they miss? They just miss. You tried a hard thing and, surprise surprise, it was hard.

    If they're trying something routine (starting at 50-80% chance of success) and fail? Blame the environment, the skills of their opposition, etc.

    I don't think the bowling example is actually really good, to be honest. There's a wide range of results we can get from bowling a frame, and a strike is closer to a "critical success" than anything. A better model would probably be something like a roll to hit anything, modified by the pins left (so extremely low for the first ball), where the damage done is the number of pins knocked down, and then having skills to impact the number of pins hit, or determining that based on degree of success, or something like that.

    And pro bowlers don't hit gutters very often.
    Look at NBA Free Throws then, or NFL field goals. They both have a strict success/fail binary (missing wide right gives you the same number of points as bouncing off the post), and even the pros miss them all the time. I only used bowling as an example because I've actually gone bowling myself.

    I've never made a field goal myself, but as a viewer I can confirm that good kickers miss easy field goals all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    If they're trying something routine (starting at 50-80% chance of success) and fail? Blame the environment, the skills of their opposition, etc.
    This line specifically is interesting. Maybe I'm just being pedantic but would something routine have a 50% chance of failure? I guess it does depend on the system, in DnD you can just set a trivially low DC, but in Apocalypse world you don't have that ability. I would argue though, that if you're attempting a routine task it probably doesn't justify a roll. You can just succeed.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •