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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    New group, so no one knows each other. Just got done with a session 0 and was told that we can roll our stats whenever and however we want. Not exactly sure how the “however” works because we didn’t talk about that. I rolled my stats (typical 4d6, drop the lowest) and I got really good stats.

    17, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10.

    I’m not comfortable using those stats because I don’t want people to think I cheated. On the other hand I’m also afraid of other people cheating because I’ve had been experiences with other online groups. Brought up my opinion to the DM but she just blew it off talking about the honor code.

    Guess I’m just curious what the overall opinion of these kind of situations are.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    May guess would be that the GM simply doesn't care if you "cheat". Or what kind of roling method you use.
    In any case you will arrive with a set of stats and hopefully you arrived at them with a way you like.
    For instance, if one player really enjoys "3d6 in order"* they can just do that.
    If another player is really unhappy with their set just because of that Charisma 15 but would be very happy if it would be Charisma 16, they could just do this little cheat if that makes them happy.

    Because in the grand scheme of things the differences don't really matter. Maybe in particular there is a issue. But this issue is then a particular thing and needs to be adressed in particular.

    Say the 3d6 in order player shows up with a 9, 7, 12, 13, 10 array and feels somewhat underpowered in comparison to the "32 point buy by 3.5 point buy rules" characters the other players opted to create. Then this feeling of being underpowered is the particular issue and can be adressed as such. No need to make preemtive restrictions.

    Sure, this assumes a somewhat mature audience, but the GM decided to treat you with respect by attributing this level of matureness to you.

    * although this method is highly unlikely to produce an array of stats that really work with D&D since 3e

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Yeah, I do that these days when playing 3.5. My preferred method of stat generation is "just write down what stats you want". Rolling is tedious and doesn't add much most of the time. And if you really need to have six 18s, then get it out of your system.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by kayli10 View Post
    New group, so no one knows each other. Just got done with a session 0 and was told that we can roll our stats whenever and however we want. Not exactly sure how the “however” works because we didn’t talk about that. I rolled my stats (typical 4d6, drop the lowest) and I got really good stats.

    17, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10.

    I’m not comfortable using those stats because I don’t want people to think I cheated.
    Why would people think that you cheated? Have you cheated before? Are they used to seeing you try to cheat?
    If the answers to that are no, don't worry about it. That's what you rolled, your DM trusts you, the other players trust you, go and play.

    If any of the other players try to tell you that you cheated, which you did not, tell them "no, that's what the dice rolls were" and say nothing more. Any further remarks from that player is a flag that you've got a problem player in your group. Keep an eye on that one. (By the way, I have seen better arrays than that rolled in this edition; my nephew had nothing less than an 11 and two 17's when he rolled up his monk/cleric, and we all watched the dice rolls)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-11-10 at 07:45 AM.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    If everybody's mature then there will be no issue. To me this is an opportunity to just write down a decent but not great set of stats, but then again I also like to spread my dots in WoD.

    For what it's worth your stats just look like a set of lucky rolls. They don't look like you cheated, but I certainly wouldn't mind if, at the table, you offered to shift a couple of values to be more in-line with the party average.

    But from what I remember most players don't actually want their stats at maximum. You can see this with equipment as well, most players will go for somewhere in the high but reasonable range if allowed to just pick. Don't surprised if a lot of PCs would have had to roll an 18 and two 16s, but you likely won't see truly hilarious stat totals.

    If I was ever running 3.5 again I'd give the choice of two arrays, revise down as much as you want:
    18 16 14 12 10 8
    16 16 14 14 10 8
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Show me on the doll where the last GM caused you trauma

    You are fine. Those stats are pretty normal.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by kayli10 View Post
    New group, so no one knows each other. Just got done with a session 0 and was told that we can roll our stats whenever and however we want. Not exactly sure how the “however” works because we didn’t talk about that. I rolled my stats (typical 4d6, drop the lowest) and I got really good stats.

    17, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10.
    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    (By the way, I have seen better arrays than that rolled in this edition; my nephew had nothing less than an 11 and two 17's when he rolled up his monk/cleric, and we all watched the dice rolls)
    I rolled 17, 17, 16, 15, 12, 12, 12 (DM liked to have us roll seven and keep the top five and lowest 1) in front of witnesses on 4d6k3. It happens.

    Another game I rolled 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13. The DM was right there watching me.

    I second Korvin here. Use those rolls and don't apologize for them. And don't worry about anyone else cheating with their scores. Sounds like the DM is prepared to handle a wide variety of ability scores.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by kayli10 View Post
    New group, so no one knows each other. Just got done with a session 0 and was told that we can roll our stats whenever and however we want. Not exactly sure how the “however” works because we didn’t talk about that. I rolled my stats (typical 4d6, drop the lowest) and I got really good stats.

    17, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10.

    I’m not comfortable using those stats because I don’t want people to think I cheated. On the other hand I’m also afraid of other people cheating because I’ve had been experiences with other online groups. Brought up my opinion to the DM but she just blew it off talking about the honor code.

    Guess I’m just curious what the overall opinion of these kind of situations are.
    Could be a test by the GM to see what kind of people she's working with. People like you who show up with perfectly normal and reasonable stats, and people like that guy who shows up with 18, 18, 18, 18, 16, 16. Then she know who is worth spending energy on and who isn't. Her own session zero.


    Or is could just be that the DM is laidback and unconcerned.
    Last edited by Wintermoot; 2022-11-10 at 12:39 PM.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by My Recruitment Template
    Ability Scores: Pick six numbers. These are your pre-racial stats. No number may be higher than 18 or less than 8. You may modify them freely up until the game starts, and may pick duplicate numbers.
    This is what I do. It's altered from my original, which let you pick stats 3-18 instead of 8-18. People kept crippling themselves, so I had to raise the floor.

    I'd ask your DM to clarify if just picking stats is okay. And I'd also advise talking with the other players of the game to make sure everyone's able to contribute well, with whatever stats are gone with.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    I personally think your stats are fine. You have 2 good stats, 3 average stats and 1 good old 10. You'll be good at 2 things, okay at a couple other things and completely normal at whatever is left. Depending on how you build your character and leverage those stats, you could be fairly powerful, or not. And I personally don't think any DM would really take issue with them.

    BUT, I no longer even ask my players to roll stats. It is, IMO, an unnecessary gatekeeping mechanic between the player and the character they want to play, or worse, between them and a character that contributes to the group and is enjoyable to play at all. Like the rest of the game, I simply set the boundaries between what you can do and cannot do.

    That is, I tell my players "Pick a score for each stat between 3 and 20 that best represents the character you want to play." Their decisions on the power level of their character tell me the sort of game they want to play. I adjust accordingly.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. It's altered from my original, which let you pick stats 3-18 instead of 8-18. People kept crippling themselves, so I had to raise the floor.
    .
    That, I really dislike. I enjoy characters with a distinct weakness. Choosing 8-18, or point buy, basically tell you "No, your character may at worst be very slightly below average."
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    That, I really dislike. I enjoy characters with a distinct weakness. Choosing 8-18, or point buy, basically tell you "No, your character may at worst be very slightly below average."
    One of the DMs I play with prefers open rolls at the table for stats 4d6b3. But also does not allow a stat below 10. If you end up with anything between a 3-9, you can just take 10 instead. Interesting, but he likes to run higher power games.

    I, on the other hand, I don’t mind playing or seeing wide variety of stats. I will role-play the heck out of that 3, if I get one. Bring on the fun! I also like wild magic shenanigans too though, so… to each his own.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    Could be a test by the GM to see what kind of people she's working with. People like you who show up with perfectly normal and reasonable stats, and people like that guy who shows up with 18, 18, 18, 18, 16, 16. Then she know who is worth spending energy on and who isn't. Her own session zero.
    Like The Angry GM's use of psionics as screening this is an incredibly unfair test. Mainly due to the 'whatever method you want' bit, it's technically fair for me to roll my stats with 1d2+37. I'd be a ****, but it's very much within the rules as defined.

    But yeah, this is almost certainly 'pick stats, be reasonable'.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    This is what I do. It's altered from my original, which let you pick stats 3-18 instead of 8-18. People kept crippling themselves, so I had to raise the floor.

    I'd ask your DM to clarify if just picking stats is okay. And I'd also advise talking with the other players of the game to make sure everyone's able to contribute well, with whatever stats are gone with.
    Would you allow one stat to drop to a 6? As somebody with ~6 DEX in real life I'd greatly appreciate it if I was playing!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Would you allow one stat to drop to a 6? As somebody with ~6 DEX in real life I'd greatly appreciate it if I was playing!
    Yeah. I've had one or two players ask to drop below an 8 since I changed the rule, and that's usually okay. The issue was when it was something like a 6 in Constitution-at that point, you're just not cut out for the adventuring lifestyle. Or a 3 in Wisdom-too many Wisdom saves means that you're also a liability.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Later systems (of D&D particularly) seem to move towards the idea you have some good stats in order to be an effective character. AD&D 1e didn't give you anything unless stats were 15 and above and the class available to you was based on stats (Among other things). So you could be set playing a fighter or thief with a subpar strength or dexterity. That also made the MAD Druids, Monks, Paladins, and Rangers a rarer character choice. The Arcane supplement provided a changed it so you could roll stats based on the character class but by that time the overpowered Cavalier made fighter pretty obsolete.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    I tend to strive for fairness and balance. So this whole idea of "just pick whatever you want" is pretty alien to me. Much more so the "roll your stats however you want." I mean, that one just seems to say "you can show up with the best scores ever...or not. Whatever, your call."

    I mean, I'm not a fan of power fantasies. I pretty much abhor them. I do not relate to their appeal whatsoever. But if a group enjoys it, sure, whatever.
    It's the discrepancy between characters. That feeling of being permanently behind, or outclassed or just like you got a raw deal compared to someone else's.
    It seems like this is pretty clearly *not fun* for a good number of people, and I can't really see why someone would actively derive fun from it ("oh, yeah. We played this game where I was at a severe handicap and this other player basically just cheated all the time. It was AWESOME").

    But then, I don't really understand rolling for stats at all. Point buy or set arrays, 100%. Let's leave chance out of it until the game actually starts. Might as well roll for the seating or snack arrangements, otherwise. Oh, sorry. You rolled a 1 and a 2, remember? So you have to sit on this carpenter's horse and all you get is rain water and rice cakes.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    I always prefer point-buy, personally. Most people I’ve played with don’t want to put in the math though, and to most of them standard array looks mediocre.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    It strike me as rather... counterintuitive to resent someone's power if you're ostensibly on the same team. It seems like varying player character power levels is pretty clearly fine with a good number of people. But hey, people play roleplaying games for a variety of different reasons. Something that serves one of those purposes well may interfere with another.

    The importance of "basic attributes" or whatever depends on the game, anyway. In Dungeons & Dragons, things like choice of class and choice of tactics generally carry a lot more weight. I assume that very few of the groups who say "Just choose whatever stats you want" also say "Just choose whatever starting level you want". "Stats" just aren't that important, so it's fine to let Timmy get a kick out of playing a conceptually superior character while the optimizing player with system mastery actually contributes way more to the party's success.

    Quote Originally Posted by kayli10 View Post
    I’m not comfortable using those stats because I don’t want people to think I cheated. On the other hand I’m also afraid of other people cheating because I’ve had been experiences with other online groups. Brought up my opinion to the DM but she just blew it off talking about the honor code.
    This seems like one of those cases where different people have different, incompatible preferences. In particular, you prefer to prevent cheating but the DM prefers that she and the players trust each other. I myself am not a fan of a level of trust that only serves to placate people who want cheating to be possible, but a lot of people do seem to value that.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Quixotic1 View Post
    I tend to strive for fairness and balance. So this whole idea of "just pick whatever you want" is pretty alien to me. Much more so the "roll your stats however you want." I mean, that one just seems to say "you can show up with the best scores ever...or not. Whatever, your call."
    Yes, pretty much. It says exactly that. As a DM, I feel I'm here to provide a service. If my players want a power fantasy, they can have it. If they want to struggle against impossible odds, I can provide that too.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    I feel I'm here to provide a service. If my players want a power fantasy, they can have it. If they want to struggle against impossible odds, I can provide that too.
    I get that. But the GM is a participant at the table, too. They should have at least an equal say in what sort of a game the group is playing, and probably more.

    But that's admittedly neither here nor there.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Eh. I've played for twenty something years, I've probably played most things I ever wanted to play at least once. Most of the time, I just ask my players what system they'd like, ask them to make characters together and then write a campaign for those characters. I find that much easier, too, I can use their backstories for 90% of the campaign backstory instead of writing it myself.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    I've never tried the "just pick the stats you want" method, but it honestly does have some appeal to me. As a D&D player I'm generally not happy with my stats if I don't have at least an 18 in my starting stat - I realize that's asking for a lot at some tables, but generally I'm not playing at those tables. I like my characters to be fairly powerful, especially when it comes to the things they're supposed to be best at. And I build my NPCs that way anyway, so it wouldn't be that big of a leap.

    But with regard to the "DM doesn't care if we roll in front of them or not," I don't think it's that weird. As a DM, if I didn't trust the players not to cheat during character creation, why would I want to play with them at all?
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils_Advocate View Post
    The importance of "basic attributes" or whatever depends on the game, anyway. In Dungeons & Dragons, things like choice of class and choice of tactics generally carry a lot more weight. I assume that very few of the groups who say "Just choose whatever stats you want" also say "Just choose whatever starting level you want". "Stats" just aren't that important, so it's fine to let Timmy get a kick out of playing a conceptually superior character while the optimizing player with system mastery actually contributes way more to the party's success.
    Actually....

    I do that too. Functionally your argument about different people having different stats shouldn't be jealous of each other applies to levels as well. If Bob enjoys playing a 20th level cleric and Joe enjoys being a 5th level rogue, these are not inherently incompatible characters. It does change the game a little bit to have Superman and Batman in the same party, but Superman does Superman stuff and Batman does Batman stuff. Where they don't overlap, they compliment each other.

    I do ask my players to discuss amongst themselves what sort of game they want(I usually step out of the room while they discuss). High stats, low levels? Action heroes. High stats, high levels? Super-heroes. Average/low stats, low levels? Gritty. Average stats, average levels? Maybe just a dungeon crawl. Then I just whip something up and roll with it.

    I have a homebrew multiverse, it has a variety of planes of worlds I can choose from(really the result of me making dozens of campaign worlds over the years) to accommodate nearly any playstyle. Any one of the worlds can usually accommodate a party of nearly any variety. And all else fails, I have my "Infinite Dungeon". I'm much better with adapting worlds to the players, than hoping I get the right mix of characters to fit in this one particular setting or module. Getting them all in the same range helps, but isn't really necessary. As long as they're working as a team it works out.
    Last edited by False God; 2022-11-12 at 11:53 AM.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    It's really interesting to hear this "meh, I've played a lot. Just tell me what you want and we'll do that" sort of mentality. I've been playing for 23 years and have run hundreds of games...but I still definitely want input.

    Most of my games start by me reaching out to players with, "hey, I was thinking I'd run a (insert genre, tone and theme here) sort of game. What do you think? Who wants in?"

    I've never really considered parties with wildly different capabilities, i.e. a lvl20 cleric and a lvl5 rogue. That seems...like you'd really have to deviate from the game aspect of the hobby quite a bit to pull off.
    Once we're that far removed from the standard the game assumes we're playing at, though...man, I dunno. Like. Where does it end? Do you even need dice at that point? This whole concept is really fascinating.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    I mean, it's not as if I don't have input. But I generally get everyone together for a session 0 first, where we brainstorm and make characters. I just enjoy games more where the characters fit the story and each other. If my players want to be a princess, a pirate and a knight, then we're going to have a campaign about the royal heir and her bodyguard fleeing a crew and joining a pirate crew incognito. And if they want to retake the throne at some point or fight an Aboleth that's in their backstory, we can do that too. I'm still going to be the one doing the actual writing.

    (I also know 10-15 systems at varying levels of proficiency. If they want to be godlike cleric and bumbling amateur thief, we can do that, but I wouldn't do it in D&D.)
    Last edited by Eldan; 2022-11-13 at 07:27 PM.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Just for reference OP, your stat spread is functionally almost indistinguishable from a standard character using 25 point buy. While technically it's a 32 PB the stats are spread out enough as for the overall impact to be negligible. You could just as easily be 16 16 14 10 10 10 and nobody would bat an eye.

    I doubt your GM would care even if he thought you "cheated". It's an extremely reasonable ability score set.

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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    If everybody's mature then there will be no issue. To me this is an opportunity to just write down a decent but not great set of stats, but then again I also like to spread my dots in WoD.

    For what it's worth your stats just look like a set of lucky rolls. They don't look like you cheated, but I certainly wouldn't mind if, at the table, you offered to shift a couple of values to be more in-line with the party average.

    But from what I remember most players don't actually want their stats at maximum. You can see this with equipment as well, most players will go for somewhere in the high but reasonable range if allowed to just pick. Don't surprised if a lot of PCs would have had to roll an 18 and two 16s, but you likely won't see truly hilarious stat totals.

    If I was ever running 3.5 again I'd give the choice of two arrays, revise down as much as you want:
    18 16 14 12 10 8
    16 16 14 14 10 8
    I like the idea of a standard array. But I think these stats are in the high end of the spectrum. Starting with an 18 before racial modifiers seems wrong to me. For 16 16 14 12 10 8 would be better.

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    Default Re: DM doesnÂ’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    I've never tried the "just pick the stats you want" method, but it honestly does have some appeal to me. As a D&D player I'm generally not happy with my stats if I don't have at least an 18 in my starting stat - I realize that's asking for a lot at some tables, but generally I'm not playing at those tables. I like my characters to be fairly powerful, especially when it comes to the things they're supposed to be best at. And I build my NPCs that way anyway, so it wouldn't be that big of a leap.

    But with regard to the "DM doesn't care if we roll in front of them or not," I don't think it's that weird. As a DM, if I didn't trust the players not to cheat during character creation, why would I want to play with them at all?
    I honestly don't understand why a character needs to start with an unbuffed stat at 18. IMHO a 16 is high enough most of the time.

  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I like the idea of a standard array. But I think these stats are in the high end of the spectrum. Starting with an 18 before racial modifiers seems wrong to me. For 16 16 14 12 10 8 would be better.
    Everybody's going to have different opinions, but most people I know like either starting a stat at max or being really jacky. But that's the reason for the revising down, once you've got tertiary stats you're not going to miss a +1 or +2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    I honestly don't understand why a character needs to start with an unbuffed stat at 18. IMHO a 16 is high enough most of the time.
    People like power. It's as simple as that, they want to play an amazing wizard instead of a good wizard. It leads to this weird situation where most NPC wizards should be at about 12INT, but they get buffed up to 14+ just to compete.

    It can be even worse in other systems. Masquerade had many PCs begin at 8th or 9th generation just to get those sweet BP per turn, as well as buffing Willpower because that let you resist Dominate. Both cases make the characters really weird under standard assumptions. It also has an issue of focusing your stats and skills being better in the long run, despite having 5 Charisma but 1 Manipulation and Appearance having really weird implications.

    In practice most PCs in most games are probably fine with no stats higher than the equivalent of 14. But people like to be strong.
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    Default Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them

    Once upon a time I had a group doing a chat session zero. The group had players that wanted a power-game, and were lobbying for various ways to maximize their chances at higher stats, including tryin to import a flaw for a feat and such.

    I quickly grew tired of the lobbying and positioning and bickering and said,

    "Pick your own stats. You can be 18s across the board. But every monster will have max HP every time. Deal?"

    That ended the discussion and we built with a set a couple of ability mods better than what was standard array. But the group didn't last more than two sessions, so take that for what it was worth.
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