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2022-11-14, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Yeah, that's definitely true. I mean, D&D has basically told us that a high score, per the base assumptions of the system, is a 15. And most of the people I play with are okay with that standard.
But I've met plenty of people who feel like they're missing out on their potential if they don't have *the highest possible score* or *the absolute most hits points they can* or *this exact set of magic items*. It doesn't matter how difficult the actual gameplay is. They know that the numbers go up to X, so any time they're dealing with X-Y, they really feel that Y.
Well. I dunno. Those aren't really the same thing. So that has weird effects on the gameplay.
I sat in for a few sessions with a GM doing this exact thing. Once I figured that out, the whole game pivoted on anything that pitted abilities against each other, like status effects. Combat (which was about 90% of his game) was long and drawn-out, but never very challenging.
But I mean. Hats off to you for even trying it. If I had a group of players asking me to run a game like that, I'd have to thank them for the opportunity and suggest they find someone else.
Unless they're paying me, of course. But that's a different matter.
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2022-11-14, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Whenever you think, "Method X" is too powerful for generating stats. Roll a town of 10,000, 3d6 in order. A computer can do this fast and easy for you. Calculate a point buy using 0 points for scores less than 8. Throw out characters without at least 12 Con (because even with all other scores high, that's not really good).
See what the results are.
I'll do that 10 times and list them off: 48, 51, 59, 54, 50, 56, 54, 62, 52, 51.
If someone wants to play Conan, which is one of the characters that the game is supposed to emulate, then they want to be BETTER than the most naturally capable person in a mid-sized town.
48 point buy is the lowest of those, one of them is 62, the other eight are all in the fifties. They are ENTIRELY out of the range of all the "reasonable" point buy totals in 3.x.
Each of these is from examining the minority of the guys in 10,000 who have 12+ con. That's roll 3d6 in order. Seriously, these are not superpowerful characters. This is all, "pretty good, but not great" (except maybe the 62, that one is wierd; even the 59 is a bit of an outlier on the high side compared with previous times I've done this).
Let people just choose, and I doubt you'll get many 50+ point buy characters, note that the guy who does this regularly had modify to put in a FLOOR, not a ceiling. People want some weaknesses, they mostly don't want 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18.
D&D rolling can't produce someone higher than 3-sigma in any characteristic, I'm 3-sigma in some things, pretty much every professional athlete in the world is outside of 3-sigma in something. Don't worry about it. Attributes by "just make up some" is fine.Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2022-11-14 at 02:59 PM.
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2022-11-14, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
It's an interesting question when considering stats for PCs. Obviously, the one easiest method is "just roll the dice", but then if we assume that's the normal distribution of "normal" people, one might consider that the kinds of people who choose to go out risking their lives adventuring are likely not going to be statistically normal. Hence, lots of different methods to allow for PCs to be "above average". Which seems reasonable.
You can get some "interesting" results if you assume that the PCs are drawn from the even the "best" say 5% of any reasonably large population base. You'll actually get baseline numbers that are far above what any point buy system is likely to result in. If we assume most people just want to live their lives, work their jobs, earn enough to put a roof over their heads, and are otherwise not spending every bit of spare time improving themselves (in whatever way someone may wish to go about "improving themselves" in the first place), then the concept of PCs having pretty exceptional stats is not that out of bounds. How you manage this as a GM is a whole other question though, since yeah, some players if given a chance will stat 18s across the board, and others will intentionally slot in low stats for RP/balance reasons.
I actually did some statistical work for a "special" society my players ran into one time in my game. The backdrop was a somewhat isolated kingdom with a strong magical history (but focused entirely on enhancement magic). They had a class of "knights" who were chosen from the population based on their potential and trained as squires to the existing knights. If there was an opening, and they were qualified (they had a lot of tourneys), they might become a knight, at which point there was this sort of blood ritual/oath thing, where they gained several hundred years of immortality (wouldn't age), in return for binding themselves to the defense and honorable protection of the people they served. So I calculated population levels, rates of birth/death (both among the regular folks and the knights themselves), how many openings would reasonably occur over any given time/generation for one to actually become a new knight, and what the stat possibilities were for those. It was pretty darn close to 18s across the board in this extreme case. Also gave me a great excuse for having these knights be completely ridiculously skilled and powerful at all forms of fighting (and magic to enhance themselves to even more ridiculous degrees).
It was a fun exercise, but highlights the concept that there are, within any population, a small number of "exceptional" people. Just via random chance. And to the degree that you could tap into those people to be your PCs (or the knights in my example), you can absolutely justify significantly higher than "normal" stats. Now, would all of these people be willing to serve (or go out adventuring)? Probably not. And are there going to be people who are "just normal average folks", who do choose to go out and risk their lives for some reason? Absolutely yes.
So I tend to be pretty flexible in terms of stats. We usually do some variant of "roll one more die, remove the one you don't want", which tends to work out just fine. And if some players have higher than statistical rates? Eh. I don't sweat it. In the grand scheme of running a game, and PC advancement, the starting stats, while they can have an impact over time, is usually not as great as other gains along the way. And most adventure scenarios are going to have a lot more to do with choices made than with whether their characters have a point or three more in some stat.
Honestly. I wouldn't sweat the stats. Just slot them in and go from there.
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2022-11-29, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2012
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
D&D has also told us, per the base assumptions of the system (in 5e), that normal people don't have classes. by choosing a class during character creation, you're saying "i want my character to be exceptional by the standards of the setting". if you want to play a character that isn't exceptional, there are statblocks at the back of the Monster Manual for commoners, nobles, acolytes, etc.
i legit don't understand this idea that some people in this thread seem to have where they want their characters to be completely regular folks but also have a class, which definitionally regular folks don't. i completely understand wanting to have at least a couple of low stats, but how good your characters are at something is just as valid a way to distinguish them as how bad they are at things.
also, i'd like to mention that giving your PC one or more mechanical weaknesses doesn't automatically mean you have a better character than someone who doesn't. it helps, but backstory and how the character is played have much more of an impact.
you may have just been saying that as an example, but it seems like you're falling victim to the Stormwind Fallacy; system mastery and optimization don't negatively impact conceptual quality or roleplaying, so little Timmy is just as likely to be playing a conceptually worse character as he is one that's superior.
i get why you'd say that "pick your stats" might not be balanced (though i think people greatly overestimate the importance of balance, especially considering how unbalanced the game is), but i'm confused why you'd say it isn't fair. "pick the stats you want" means everyone will come out of character creation with exactly the stats they want, and nobody will get screwed over by random chance. how could it get any more fair than that?
you might argue that a standard array is more fair, but i'd disagree if you did; an array will pretty much inevitably favor SAD characters over MAD ones. point buy does, as well, unless you have so many points that it might as well just be "pick your stats".
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i've never come across the idea of "just pick whatever stats you want" before, and i think it's quite an interesting one. it would definitely not be for every group, but i can see it working well in some.
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2022-11-29, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Also, while there may be exceptions to this rule, IME there are typically two types of players who will focus on maxed out stats:
1. Young/inexperienced players who ooh and ahh over "look at my <insert stat here>" (usually strength) and just want to have high stats because it appears as though it's the most important thing (certainly the most basic defining thing), but often really suck at actually picking effective combinations of class/skills/spells/whatever during the rest of character creation and maybe aren't so great at making good tactical decisions during play (the classic "I must accomplish something of significance every single round, so I'll waste spells or ability slots taking out wimpy opponents one round faster" situation).
2. Total min/maxers, who will also stat out the best stats they can to maximize their spell/ability/combat odds, while also maximizing efficiency and power in spell/skill/class selection and then follow that up with also being absolutely diligent with making the most efficient tactical decisions possible, no wasted moves, no wasted slots, etc.
So yeah, you can't assume much, and certainly can't assume that just because someone maxes out stats when given the chance, that they'll absolutely fail at other aspects of the game and somehow "balance it out". The second group will sometimes shamelessly do this, and don't care a whit about balance. They want the most powerful character they can make. And, unfortunately, GMs have to approach PC creation with the latter group in mind.
Obviously, there are even more different types of players who don't max out stats, and for a variety of different reasons.
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2022-11-29, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2022-11-29, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Because even min/maxers can be excellent, engaging, and interesting players. Most of them are basically of the old school wargamer mindset and don't actually have any malicious intent when doing what they do. They honest believe that it's the best play to "play the best". And are often honestly confused why everyone doesn't play this way.
It's not the player's job to create balance in the game. It's the GMs. Tossing players because they want to make the most of the rules of the game is silly. You just have to set some boundaries if that sort of thing will actually cause a problem in your game. Like thinking very carefully about how any item or ability might be used before introducing it. Or, say, coming up with firmer stat buy rules so as to force a more "balanced" initial character build. At the end of the day, the players who obsessively scan the rules and crunch the numbers so as to maximize the power/efficiency of their characters are going to do that no matter what rules/limits you place anyway. But the GM has the power to minimize the degree to which this actually affects the game.
My point is that when considering balance issues, you always have to take into account the players who are most likely to really take advantage of any loophole or cheesy tricks that may be present and close/fix them *before* things get to that point. If you do this correctly, you might just be surprised at how much of an asset some of those players you might otherwise disinvite from your table can be.
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2022-11-29, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
If someone is doing something at the expense of the fun of the table, I don’t want them at my table.
Everyone should enjoy the game-not just one or two people.
If they do not intend to cause harm, and it’s just them not realizing what they’re doing is causing issues, that can be addressed with a talk. But willfully causing problems is not something I’d accept.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2022-11-30, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
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2022-11-30, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
I agree 100%. But I think we've gone well past what I was actually saying. I'm just saying that when you, as a GM, pick a methodology for your players to build/grow/whatever their characters, you do have to keep the min/max mindset in mind. Because if your methodology allows for super cheesy or overpowered or game unbalancing builds, those types of players will gravitate to those things. You have to get there first and head it off at the pass, so as to avoid ever getting anywhere near the region of "expense of the fun of the table".
Saying "You can build anything you want within this framework", but then when players build characters within that framework that don't "work", you respond by flying right to disinviting that player, that's a bit of an overreaction (and a heck of a lot of passive aggressive on your part). I'm assuming you aren't actually endorsing this approach, and we can assume there's some layer of "talk to the player and set build expectations" in there. But that's part of the "keep these players in mind" bit I was talking about. The more loopholes you have in your system, the more often you're going to have "the talk" to keep min/max players from taking advantage of them. You can look at that as a bad thing, or an annoyance to be dealt with, or you can look at it as an opportunity to clean up your game and become a better game/world builder in the process.
Honestly, the flip side (and why I mentioned two sets of player types) is that young/inexperienced players also require a lot of work as well. You often will find yourself helping them with their builds. In this case though, it's so that they aren't unhappy when the reality of the build doesn't match their expectations. And just as the min/max players can be very good for a table in that they are engaged and come up with good ideas and strategies and then execute them (and would never ever just "forget" about a trap or ethereal demon floating around for example), the less experienced players bring a sense of "newness" and "fun" to a table that is incredibly refreshing. But if left to their own devices, they'll construct a build that often looks like a Picasso sketch or something. There's a need to get those players to slow down, focus on core aspects of a character, and build to that with a mind towards their own "fun" while playing said character (and while not stomping on their own ideas either, which is the tricky part).
Bit off topic from the issue of die rolling stats, but IMO the other aspects of character build are pretty important too, and I've found often create much more impact on the long term playability of the characters themselves within the game setting. And yes, how much "work" you are going to have to do as a GM managing those players and their characters within your game setting/scenario(s)/whatever over time. But IME, that work is worth doing, as it will result in a well balanced and well functioning gaming table, in which everyone is having fun.
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2022-11-30, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
I've had plenty of success with "Pick six numbers, 8-18."
Again-the main change I had to make from the original was making it 8-18 instead of 3-18.
Sometimes, players get nervous that it's some hidden test-so I just give them an array. Usually something like 18 18 16 14 12 12. Yes, it's high powered. I am okay with that-with ability scores capped at 20 in 5E, even starting with all 18s doesn't break the game.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2022-11-30, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Last edited by False God; 2022-11-30 at 02:12 PM.
Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
"You know it's all fake right?"
"...yeah, but it makes me feel better."
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2022-11-30, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Maybe once every other game... But it was often something like a 3 in Wisdom or a 6 in Constitution.
Often enough that I wanted to change it. If a player specifically requests for a lower-than-8 stat, I'll usually allow it, but by making it 8-18 it sets the tone for highly skilled and overall competent PCs, which is what I like my players' characters to be.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2022-11-30, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Yeah, the general assumption is that class=occupation. It very much doesn't help that about half are generally treated by the game as actual in-world things and half aren't. Something like 3.X's NPC classes might actually have been helpful for this, but even Sidekicks didn't appear for years.
Sadly D&D isn't like Ryuutama, where classes are basic enough that you can assume that an NPC Noble, even without the actual class, probably has similar abilities.
To which I say, come to the point by side. We have more versatile character creation and less assumption that NPCs have PC abilities.
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2022-12-01, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
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2022-12-02, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
I think, technically it's a bit less than 3 sigma (3d6 stdev is like 3). You need more dice for a bigger variability (as opposed to bigger dice).
As for me, I don't care. I've given players 2 sets of 4d8 previously for a heroic campaign I ran.
But when you bring up cheating, it makes me think about winning and losing. At which point here's a good question to ask: Who's winning and who's losing and what?
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2022-12-02, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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- In my library
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
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2022-12-02, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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2022-12-02, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Eh, for the next D&D game I run, I am planning on giving everyone 18s across the board. Because why not?
the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2022-12-02, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
It really doesn't change much(I say this having done it, and not to disparage it). Martials will be a bit better at saving against spells for the first 10 levels or so, casters will be a bit better at taking hits or hitting people with weapons if they need/want to. Everyone will be good at some more skills. What any given class favors will play a larger role than the stats.
It's not like folks have 28's or 40's. And it's not like there isn't an entire edition where that is both possible, probably intentional, and completely manageable.
Generally speaking, I prefer giving my players higher starting stats, hence why I'm in the "Pick your stats." camp. Also the "Pick your starting level." camp, but that's a bigger jump for some folks.Last edited by False God; 2022-12-02 at 10:41 AM.
Knowledge brings the sting of disillusionment, but the pain teaches perspective.
"You know it's all fake right?"
"...yeah, but it makes me feel better."
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2022-12-02, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
Last edited by Eldan; 2022-12-02 at 10:51 AM.
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2022-12-02, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
I normally play and run in pathfinder. There are a few classes that require multiple high stats to be functional *Glares at the monk.* And a few that I do not allow and still won't because I feel the design of the class is genuinely horrid or disruptive for reasons that cannot be fixed with high stats *glares at the Vigilante and the Kineticist.*
the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2022-12-02, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
From a strict design perspective, high stats in themselves don't really change the math of the game very much. In 5E higher mostly really just convert to extra Feats. Players often like high stats and players often like more Feats. And neither Feats nor stats significantly alter the balance of the game.
One player with much higher (or lower) stats than everyone else can sometimes be an issue. But not always. And it's the kind of thing that can be discussed before the game starts.
So, as a DM, I have no real investment in how stats are determined. Whatever the group wants is usually fine with me. I do the Standard Array for people new to the game. And if people want to roll, I usually add a rule that anyone can use anyone else's array of they want.(Avatar by Cuthalion, who is great.)
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2022-12-02, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2015
Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
To some extend that is true - but only to some extend. Overpowered characters are often not about broken tricks but about using synergies and avoiding redundancies. And if you really want to kill all those, your system might end up pretty restrictive and also bloated wth exceptions.
And sometimes all those readjustments feel like playing what-a-mole. And that is not really fun as a GM. A player with good enough system mastery to always build the best possible character also has enough system mastery to judge the efficiency of the other PCs and roughly keep to the same level. And that is what i demand from players. I am willing to tell a player two times to tone it down if it becomes a problem. The third time i would indeed kick the player and be rid of the hassle.
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2022-12-04, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: DM doesn’t care about us rolling stats in front of them
This is why I always want somebody watching my character rolls. When designing a character by email, and some random roll is needed, I will usually ask the DM to roll it for me and send me the results.
My ultimate nightmare is a DM letting me roll a character by myself, and getting three 18s.Last edited by Jay R; 2022-12-07 at 10:19 AM.