Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[ecarden]

Saw it yesterday. I'll say definitely worth seeing once in theaters, not sure I'm going to watch it again though.

General, non-spoilery comments:

1) Least 'marvel formula' MCU movie
2) Least 'marvel humor' MCU movie
3) Very different tone from most, more...mournful and contemplative?
4) This is making it sound dull, which it wasn't.
5) This is also making it sound like something I'd really enjoy, which it also wasn't, though I can't quite put my finger on why. I have my gripes, but they're not Eternal's sized, or anything.

[Peelee]

Points one and two make it sound the exact opposite of dull, actually. For me at least.

This might be the first Marvel movie I wanted to see in quite some time.

[Palanan]

I've been debating seeing this in the theater, since the past few movies I've seen in the theater were disappointments and not really worth the money.

I'm not especially excited for it, and pretty burned out on Marvel movies in general. Is there enough here to justify seeing it in the theater? Or is this one of those "wait to rent if you're not super-pumped" movies?

[ecarden]

I've been debating seeing this in the theater, since the past few movies I've seen in the theater were disappointments and not really worth the money.

I'm not especially excited for it, and pretty burned out on Marvel movies in general. Is there enough here to justify seeing it in the theater? Or is this one of those "wait to rent if you're not super-pumped" movies?

I'll say I think the theater added a lot. There's quite a bit of spectacle that I think worked better on the big screen, the 3d was well integrated and not entirely superfluous, and the emotion can land harder in a group setting then streaming on the couch.

However, I will also say it is LONG. Long as in I ended up taking two separate bathroom breaks. Bring back the intermission!

[Psyren]

Saw it, and while I definitely enjoyed it, the plot was quite messy. You could really see the production issues and cracks that were holding this one back. But the visuals as usual were stunning and I loved the new and returning Marvel characters.

There is one mid-credits scene which isn't majorly impactful I'd say. Post-credits there is a brief statement from the filmmakers rather than an additional stinger.

Spoiler: Spoilery Thoughts

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Spoiler: The New Black Panther and Wakandan Royalty

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I don't like Shuri as the new Black Panther, even putting all my issues with her actress aside that I won't elaborate on here. Physically, she's nowhere near ready for the role; she's as skinny as a twig, she doesn't look at all believable in melee, her suit is lame (come on, you're the gadget queen, couldn't you add one new feature to it?) and her fighting style doesn't incorporate any kind of cool agility or techniques. And for the role itself, she takes the power for all the wrong reasons - desire for revenge, lack of respect for the spiritual aspects, and worst of all, putting herself at colossal risk with an untested herb despite being the only one with a prayer of synthesizing more of it in the whole kingdom. And don't get me started on her getting Killmonger's spiritual endorsement of all people, which to me suggests her tenure won't be long, or the fact that Wakanda now has a succession crisis in the making if she ever ends up having children of her own (maybe her fake herb will nip that in the bud, no pun intended, by making her sterile though.) Oh wait, they might have one anyway, since I guess M'Baku is running unopposed for the throne now too? What if he has kids? I can't help but think about this stuff!

Nakia by far would have been the superior choice (and I'm not the only one who thinks so - she proves herself to be a capable badass even with no powers at all during the film, and she's royalty now herself due to being the mother of T'Challa's child assuming that's a hard requirement. And she has shown she fulfills the number one job description for the BP, i.e. being a multifaceted agent and fighter who can secure and protect Wakandan interests at home and abroad. Hell, Queen Ramunda herself turned to Nakia in the kingdom's darkest hour, and she delivered - you can't get a better endorsement than that. But no reason is given for them not even considering her for the job. When she showed up in the lab right as Shuri finished the herb I got excited, only for my hopes to be dashed. When M'Baku proclaimed Shuri as the new BP, it was positioned as some kind of triumphant moment, but my theater was dead quiet, and the underwhelming feeling was palpable.

Spoiler: Colonizers

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The Val and Ross subplot was another chunk of wasted motion. It served one purpose early on - Ross helping Wakanda locate Riri (I'll get to her). But after that, Ross commits a bunch of treason by telling the Wakandans nothing, gets caught by Val and arrested (Apparently they were... married? And she keeps handcuffs in his kitchen? Eww) then freed by Wakanda and now he... I dunno, lives there? I guess? It's all very vague and very little of it was necessary for an already bloated 3 hour movie. I feel like they could have had Wakanda locate Riri on their own much more easily, or had Bilbo's help occur off-screen.

Spoiler: Riri

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I love Dominique Thorne in this role, but there was quite a bit of suspension of disbelief here. She's really the only person who can make a vibranium detector? I get that Tony funded everyone's MIT projects, which probably explains how she was able to put together her Mark I and develop the detector, but it's not like there's no vibranium to study outside of Talokan and Wakanda (hell, a bunch of doofuses got their hands on a vibranium needle in She-Hulk somehow, on top of Todd buying an entire spear in a black market auction.)

I was really hoping she'd have been more involved with T'Challa's legacy, i.e. the Wakandan robotics outreach centers in POC communities he established, but being an MIT genius following more closely in Stark's footsteps is fine too I guess.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

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The T'Challa funeral was touching. Ramunda's was rushed.

M'Baku and the Jabari continue to be the best part of these movies.

Ramunda taking down Okoye verbally was well-deserved, even if her timing royally (heh) sucked.

Namor was solid but I don't have too much to say about him, he was just Killmonger 2.0 here really - charismatic yet genocidal demagogue - but with a foundation laid for him to become more in future movies.

The action scenes were meh. By far the best one was extracting Riri from the US. The boat climax and the duel between Shuri and Namor were silly. (Seriously, your big Wakandan boat only has one weapon on it, and no plan B if the Atlanteans wreck it?)

The visuals in both Wakanda and Talokan were stellar, as was the view of MCU Haiti.

All in all, it had several high notes and did what it needed to do, but I wasn't too enamored with this one and I'm hoping this end of the MCU goes through some changes.

Is there enough here to justify seeing it in the theater?

I always find this immensely hard to answer for other people. Only you can really justify what about a movie makes it worthwhile to head out to a theater for. For me, every Marvel movie gets that because I love the intercontinuity and I hate dodging spoilers and memes for weeks online, but others might not value those things the way I do.

Even one like this that I felt had serious structural problems was worth the ticket for me.

[Dienekes]

I always find this immensely hard to answer for other people. Only you can really justify what about a movie makes it worthwhile to head out to a theater for. For me, every Marvel movie gets that because I love the intercontinuity and I hate dodging spoilers and memes for weeks online, but others might not value those things the way I do.

Even one like this that I felt had serious structural problems was worth the ticket for me.

Personally, I'd say this. Theaters are louder than I like, seats are less comfortable than my couch, food is over costed, other people are annoying, there's always some annoying jerk talking or on their phone, and the floor is sticky.

But the spectacle? The sheer size of watching action performed in front of you. That is what theaters do better than the comfort of my home. So if the movie is more of a slow burn, a character drama, a display mostly on nuance and understanding the inner humanity of the characters? Yeah, that can wait. I will enjoy it more at home. But if the film has a focus on spectacle, set pieces and all that fun stuff then I'll cough up more than I'd like to go see.

[Peelee]

Personally, I'd say this. Theaters are louder than I like

The volume and temperature are set to whatever the last person complained about to the staff/management. Be that person and the problem gets resolved. For you, at least.

[Deadkitten]

The volume and temperature are set to whatever the last person complained about to the staff/management. Be that person and the problem gets resolved. For you, at least.

That's not as likely as you would think. I'm a manager of a 12 screen of one of the big chains so take it with a grain of salt how accurate it is broadly but I can give a few tidbits of info when it comes to those sorts of things.

For starters on temperature. Because an auditorium is so big and has such a huge ceiling, it takes FOREVER for there to be any meaningful change on the settings. That's coupled with the fact that we can only adjust the temperature by 5 degrees in either direction for only an HOUR. Then it reverts back to the programmed temperature set by home office. So even then with how long it takes to change the temperature, probably won't matter. Also attendance directly affects temperature more than you think. Body heat is a big factor in an auditorium and if it's busy it can have a hard time keeping up. Those aren't great excuses but those are the limitations of the equipment we have and I don't work for a small chain with no resources so that that for what you will.

As for sound. We do try to keep an eye on if it is off but we generally don't adjust it by a large degree because it can risk damaging the speakers and those are NOT cheap and usually leave an auditorium down for at least a week or two to get it fixed. Generally any repairs are a nightmare because the guys who do it cover multiple states and hundreds of miles by themselves and are constantly in a game of whack-a-mole of trying to fix more problems than they have time to solve. So we try not to mess with those too much. Lowering volume usually isn't too much of an issue but you would be surprised how it can affect other issues that can come up.

I can honestly gripe all day about my issues with theatre chains and some of the dumb logic they can do but some things are hard to solve and most places try to deal with that as best they can.

That definitely might have been WAAAY too much info that no one wanted or cared for but it's 5am here and I'm kinda bored. So my apologies.😅

[Kareeah_Indaga]

For starters on temperature. Because an auditorium is so big and has such a huge ceiling, it takes FOREVER for there to be any meaningful change on the settings. That's coupled with the fact that we can only adjust the temperature by 5 degrees in either direction for only an HOUR. Then it reverts back to the programmed temperature set by home office. So even then with how long it takes to change the temperature, probably won't matter.

Now I’m wondering if that’s why my local theater installed the lovely heated seats. Fewer complaints and less maintenance.

[Peelee]

That's not as likely as you would think. I'm a manager of a 12 screen of one of the big chains so take it with a grain of salt how accurate it is broadly but I can give a few tidbits of info when it comes to those sorts of things.

For starters on temperature. Because an auditorium is so big and has such a huge ceiling, it takes FOREVER for there to be any meaningful change on the settings. That's coupled with the fact that we can only adjust the temperature by 5 degrees in either direction for only an HOUR. Then it reverts back to the programmed temperature set by home office. So even then with how long it takes to change the temperature, probably won't matter. Also attendance directly affects temperature more than you think. Body heat is a big factor in an auditorium and if it's busy it can have a hard time keeping up. Those aren't great excuses but those are the limitations of the equipment we have and I don't work for a small chain with no resources so that that for what you will.

As for sound. We do try to keep an eye on if it is off but we generally don't adjust it by a large degree because it can risk damaging the speakers and those are NOT cheap and usually leave an auditorium down for at least a week or two to get it fixed. Generally any repairs are a nightmare because the guys who do it cover multiple states and hundreds of miles by themselves and are constantly in a game of whack-a-mole of trying to fix more problems than they have time to solve. So we try not to mess with those too much. Lowering volume usually isn't too much of an issue but you would be surprised how it can affect other issues that can come up.

I can honestly gripe all day about my issues with theatre chains and some of the dumb logic they can do but some things are hard to solve and most places try to deal with that as best they can.

That definitely might have been WAAAY too much info that no one wanted or cared for but it's 5am here and I'm kinda bored. So my apologies.😅

No worries! I used to run projection back when it was 35mm (and sitting the transition to digital, which was pretty neat, but it wasn't nearly as fun as film). I know all aboit the issues and ranges for temps and sounds, but it's still good to know they're adjustable. Especially the sound, even within the range it changes its usually noticeable and also typically due to people in crowded auditoriums wanting it up and empty ones wanting it down, for obvious reasons.

I feel kind of sad that once digital was firmly entrenched theaters went with automated protection. I understand why but man, for a crappy minimum wage job, movie theater was really fun, and projection was just the best. Though I was also at a chain that took care of its equipment and employees. I had several friends who worked at a different theater in town which did neither, and to this day they complain about some of the stuff management pulled.

[Palanan]

I appreciate the various perspectives on the movie. I dislike crowded theaters, and I enjoy it most when I’m the only one watching, so the group experience isn’t a draw for me. But “least Marvel formula MCU movie” is a strong endorsement for me, and I do like the spectacle of the big screen.

Also, I’m personally happy to hear as much about theater operations as anyone wants to share, although probably better in a dedicated thread—“Night of the Living Theater Employees” or something like that. I’ve always been interested in how a theater works.

Never in a thousand years would I have expected heated seats, though. That would drive me right out the door, unless I could turn it off myself.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Second having a specific thread for How Theaters Work.

Never in a thousand years would I have expected heated seats, though. That would drive me right out the door, unless I could turn it off myself.

You actually have to activate it manually if you want it on, and it has an automatic shutoff (I’m uncertain of the length of time beyond, ‘I had to turn it on more than once during the movie’). They also have two different heat settings.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
You actually have to activate it manually if you want it on, and it has an automatic shutoff (I’m uncertain of the length of time beyond, ‘I had to turn it on more than once during the movie’). They also have two different heat settings.

Interesting. Maybe that's more popular in places where it snows? Not something I've often felt the need for.

[Deadkitten]

Now I’m wondering if that’s why my local theater installed the lovely heated seats. Fewer complaints and less maintenance.

Now my theatres doesn't have heated seats but from my 10 years in the business and the cynicism that I acquired over that time I am fairly certain it's more of them trying to throw around various fancy bells and whistles to justify the cost of going to the theatre over lowering the prices. I can defend theatre chains to a large degree on their pricing because it has waaaaay more fixed cost things that are our of their hands but it definitely feels like they don't put as much effort into lowering prices and more into trying to justify having them.

An example of silliness is that 3D movies used to be more expensive because the company that owned the technology wouldn't sell you the equipment, they RENTED it to you and that was on top of them getting a cut of the ticket prices. 3D moves have pretty much fallen out of favor outside of imax though so it hasn't been too much frustration in years. People just don't want to wear the glasses.🤷

[Deadkitten]

I appreciate the various perspectives on the movie. I dislike crowded theaters, and I enjoy it most when I’m the only one watching, so the group experience isn’t a draw for me. But “least Marvel formula MCU movie” is a strong endorsement for me, and I do like the spectacle of the big screen.

Also, I’m personally happy to hear as much about theater operations as anyone wants to share, although probably better in a dedicated thread—“Night of the Living Theater Employees” or something like that. I’ve always been interested in how a theater works.

Never in a thousand years would I have expected heated seats, though. That would drive me right out the door, unless I could turn it off myself.

It's a good idea so I made a thread. If someone doesn't care to go ahead and post a link in this one I would appreciate it. It's obviously a busy weekend and I post off of my phone so I don't have the patience to do a link right now.😅

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Here you go: Theater thread.

[GloatingSwine]

I thought it was pretty great, it does have to take quite a bit of time setting up Namor and Notlantis but outside that the performances are all strong, with Angela Bassett being the core for the first half of the movie, and the action scenes are servicable.

Spoiler: Spoilery Thoughts

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Spoiler: The New Black Panther and Wakandan Royalty

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I don't like Shuri as the new Black Panther, even putting all my issues with her actress aside that I won't elaborate on here. Physically, she's nowhere near ready for the role; she's as skinny as a twig, she doesn't look at all believable in melee, her suit is lame (come on, you're the gadget queen, couldn't you add one new feature to it?) and her fighting style doesn't incorporate any kind of cool agility or techniques. And for the role itself, she takes the power for all the wrong reasons - desire for revenge, lack of respect for the spiritual aspects, and worst of all, putting herself at colossal risk with an untested herb despite being the only one with a prayer of synthesizing more of it in the whole kingdom. And don't get me started on her getting Killmonger's spiritual endorsement of all people, which to me suggests her tenure won't be long, or the fact that Wakanda now has a succession crisis in the making if she ever ends up having children of her own (maybe her fake herb will nip that in the bud, no pun intended, by making her sterile though.) Oh wait, they might have one anyway, since I guess M'Baku is running unopposed for the throne now too? What if he has kids? I can't help but think about this stuff!

Nakia by far would have been the superior choice (and I'm not the only one who thinks so - she proves herself to be a capable badass even with no powers at all during the film, and she's royalty now herself due to being the mother of T'Challa's child assuming that's a hard requirement. And she has shown she fulfills the number one job description for the BP, i.e. being a multifaceted agent and fighter who can secure and protect Wakandan interests at home and abroad. Hell, Queen Ramunda herself turned to Nakia in the kingdom's darkest hour, and she delivered - you can't get a better endorsement than that. But no reason is given for them not even considering her for the job. When she showed up in the lab right as Shuri finished the herb I got excited, only for my hopes to be dashed. When M'Baku proclaimed Shuri as the new BP, it was positioned as some kind of triumphant moment, but my theater was dead quiet, and the underwhelming feeling was palpable.

Spoiler: Colonizers

Show

The Val and Ross subplot was another chunk of wasted motion. It served one purpose early on - Ross helping Wakanda locate Riri (I'll get to her). But after that, Ross commits a bunch of treason by telling the Wakandans nothing, gets caught by Val and arrested (Apparently they were... married? And she keeps handcuffs in his kitchen? Eww) then freed by Wakanda and now he... I dunno, lives there? I guess? It's all very vague and very little of it was necessary for an already bloated 3 hour movie. I feel like they could have had Wakanda locate Riri on their own much more easily, or had Bilbo's help occur off-screen.

Spoiler: Riri

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I love Dominique Thorne in this role, but there was quite a bit of suspension of disbelief here. She's really the only person who can make a vibranium detector? I get that Tony funded everyone's MIT projects, which probably explains how she was able to put together her Mark I and develop the detector, but it's not like there's no vibranium to study outside of Talokan and Wakanda (hell, a bunch of doofuses got their hands on a vibranium needle in She-Hulk somehow, on top of Todd buying an entire spear in a black market auction.)

I was really hoping she'd have been more involved with T'Challa's legacy, i.e. the Wakandan robotics outreach centers in POC communities he established, but being an MIT genius following more closely in Stark's footsteps is fine too I guess.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous

Show

The T'Challa funeral was touching. Ramunda's was rushed.

M'Baku and the Jabari continue to be the best part of these movies.

Ramunda taking down Okoye verbally was well-deserved, even if her timing royally (heh) sucked.

Namor was solid but I don't have too much to say about him, he was just Killmonger 2.0 here really - charismatic yet genocidal demagogue - but with a foundation laid for him to become more in future movies.

The action scenes were meh. By far the best one was extracting Riri from the US. The boat climax and the duel between Shuri and Namor were silly. (Seriously, your big Wakandan boat only has one weapon on it, and no plan B if the Atlanteans wreck it?)

The visuals in both Wakanda and Talokan were stellar, as was the view of MCU Haiti.

Spoiler: Spoiler Stuff

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Spoiler: New Black Panther

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I doubt they ever seriously considered anyone except Shuri as the new Panther, but I agree that Letitia Wright didn't really make much impact. Her action scenes were okay, but never really more than that and Danai Gurira carried most of the action of the film.

Hopefully for the next one they'll at least get a good fight choreographer who can design a style around her being so thin and having such little presence in a fight scene because of it.

I think she did a lot better with the rest of the character though, with Bassett and Gurira both having a lot of screen presence there was a risk she would get lost out of the action as well as in it and that didn't happen, she just doesn't land in fight scenes.

Spoiler: Ross

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Such is the price of continuity. Ross' scenes are 99% setup for Secret Invasion, and Val is probably a Skrull.

Spoiler: Riri

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The MCU is full of improbable one-off geniuses. Peter Parker makes web fluid basically nobody can replicate in a high school science lab. Also the combination of the big shoulder boosters and arm cannon made her full Ironheart suit look a bit like Samus Aran, and that's worth extra points from me.

[Peelee]

An example of silliness is that 3D movies used to be more expensive because the company that owned the technology wouldn't sell you the equipment, they RENTED it to you and that was on top of them getting a cut of the ticket prices.

And on top of renting the movie itself. I assume that's still being done, at least. I'd be surprised if it wasn't.

3D moves have pretty much fallen out of favor outside of imax though so it hasn't been too much frustration in years. People just don't want to wear the glasses.🤷

You mean "IMAX".

I also ran 70mm IMAX in a dedicated IMAX dome and was second in line to theater director, the top position in the theater department at the company (and a position where you can only quit during a 2-month period every 2 years or pay $20,000 in penalties, because every other year they send you to Toronto for intensive training at IMAX headquarters, where among other things, you learn how to take apart the entire projector - which is massive, bytheway) down to each individual part and out it back together again).

Working there may have biased me against "IMAX" upgraded auditoriums at chain theaters.

[Talakeal]

Did anyone else think the movie was very dark? I had trouble seeing what was going on, especially in the underwater scenes, and I can’t tell if it was the movie or the theatre. Last time I had this problem was Pacific Rim.


On the subject of underwater, I thought Aquaman did I much better job of presenting a wondrous underwater civilization. Tlaloqan (sp) was kind of underwhelming. Its unusual for DC to do visual spectacle better than Marvel.

[GloatingSwine]

The underwater scenes were quite dark, yeah.

It's on purpose to give it an oppressive atmosphere and contrast with Wakanda.

[Talakeal]

The underwater scenes were quite dark, yeah.

It's on purpose to give it an oppressive atmosphere and contrast with Wakanda.

I figured as much.

It seems kind of strange though; Shuri is acting as if she is seeing this wondrous civilization that is worth preserving, but all we see is dark and oppressive gloom.

[GloatingSwine]

Taking it to spoilers:

Spoiler

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Yeah, though also going with a naturalistic "bottom of the sea is actually quite dark" presentation is that it increases the impact of Namor's artificial sun, because he literally brought light to a people who had to hide in darkness.

Also finding an entire undersea nation is pretty wondrous in the first place, even with the lights turned off.

[Psyren]

I thought it was pretty great, it does have to take quite a bit of time setting up Namor and Notlantis but outside that the performances are all strong, with Angela Bassett being the core for the first half of the movie, and the action scenes are servicable.

Spoiler: Spoiler Stuff

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Spoiler: New Black Panther

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I doubt they ever seriously considered anyone except Shuri as the new Panther, but I agree that Letitia Wright didn't really make much impact. Her action scenes were okay, but never really more than that and Danai Gurira carried most of the action of the film.

Hopefully for the next one they'll at least get a good fight choreographer who can design a style around her being so thin and having such little presence in a fight scene because of it.

I think she did a lot better with the rest of the character though, with Bassett and Gurira both having a lot of screen presence there was a risk she would get lost out of the action as well as in it and that didn't happen, she just doesn't land in fight scenes.

Spoiler: Ross

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Such is the price of continuity. Ross' scenes are 99% setup for Secret Invasion, and Val is probably a Skrull.

Spoiler: Riri

Show

The MCU is full of improbable one-off geniuses. Peter Parker makes web fluid basically nobody can replicate in a high school science lab. Also the combination of the big shoulder boosters and arm cannon made her full Ironheart suit look a bit like Samus Aran, and that's worth extra points from me.

Spoiler: 1-2-3

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1) I know she was always intended to be the successor but some explanation in-universe why it couldn't be anyone else would have been nice... Anyway, my hope is that they go with the comic arc where Bast finds her unworthy and she gives up the mantle.

2) I don't even know what setup is here. Ross getting arrested for helping Wakanda with classified intel might as well have happened offscreen since it didn't end up meaning anything for this story. And Val's setup here is essentially the same as where we left her in FATWS; we learn that she's smart, devious and highly connected in the US government, none of which is new information.

3) I have no problem with improbable prodigies being capable of unique technology in Marvel, but "vibranium detector" isn't really part of Riri's identity the way "web shooters" are for Peter, "Pym particles" are for Hank or "arc reactor" is for Tony. Still, for the sake of this film I can certainly buy her being the first to crack it, but Namor's grand plan still seems kind of silly.

[Deadkitten]

The underwater scenes were quite dark, yeah.

It's on purpose to give it an oppressive atmosphere and contrast with Wakanda.

CGI also looks better or hides the poorly done graphics when it's dark. 3D can also make it SLIGHTLY darker cause there is usually an extra lense used

[Ranxerox]

The underwater scenes were quite dark, yeah.

It's on purpose to give it an oppressive atmosphere and contrast with Wakanda.

I don't think so. The people of Talokan, the underwater city, didn't seem particularly oppressed. We see people working, socializing, and playing games, and none of them seem unhappy. I suspect that to the Talokan people, the city is not dark. Their eyes are adapted to the low light. It is only because we are seeing it as Shuri see it that the city looks dark.

[Tyndmyr]

So, this film is, for me, very mixed.

On the one hand, they fixed one of my beefs with the original Black Panther film, and showed us a broader swathe of Wakanda. On the other hand, the entire film is basically a memorial to Chadwick. Don't get me wrong, his loss sucks badly, and it really is a shame he wasn't with us for this film. However, it does bring down the mood a lot from most comic book movies.

All in all, I consider it very mixed, but I expect it to make buckets of money on the domestic market, but do fairly miserable overseas.

Spoileriffic review:

Spoiler

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There is yet another race of superpowered beings that have been hidden this entire time. Their leader is a mutant, which I guess I'm supposed to squee over because Xmen, but he really, really hates when things happen to his people or in the ocean. Not Thanos's snap, that was cool, I guess. Also, not bothered by the events of the Eternals, when a plant cracking godbaby begins to emerge from the Ocean. Also ok. But when someone turns on the wrong kind of metal detector, it's time to murder everyone.

There is a side plot in the US. It doesn't matter. Pretty much nothing about it will ever matter, the power level is ludicrously lower than anything else.

Angry goddude wants to murder the metal detector creator who is...an insane genius even by marvel standards. She's 19. She also somehow wants to be recruited by Wakanda, but is upset at being taken to Wakanda and wants to go home. It isn't really ever clear what she wants. However, she has invented quantum computing, broken basically all encryption, made a super metal detector, an iron man suit, and half a dozen other things. Also, she refurbished a car at the age of three. Three.

You should probably just turn your brain off while watching this movie when it comes to explaining how anything works. Apparently god dude actually flies not from magic, but from tiny ankle wings. It's comics, just....don't think about this too much. Or think about how since guns work on the bad guys, they are actually not that much of a threat if you just call upon any of the many forces that embrace firepower instead of resorting to melee fighting the strong dudes.

Shuri's the protaganist, and I guess the main theme of her story is that it really sucks that Chadwick died. Okay. This never really presents an obstacle to her at any point, and she's largely reacting, not proactive, with the exception of the naval battle idea, which is strategically wild. The movie skips to a "yes, this guy has straight up murdered everyone I know without mercy or remorse, but I must forgive him and spare his life, after offing hundreds of his underlings" finale, which....okay.

I kind of wish they had gone a little more hardcore Aztec on the sea people, and finished with a finale of Suri holding their leader hostage to end the conflict. Much more morally ambiguous, a nice historical nod, and leaves you the obvious sequel bait of Namor's return.

It was not entirely bad, but it was a long movie, and it felt long, and I have no desire to see it again.

[Ramza00]

Tyndmyr the arc.

Spoiler: The Arc

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Shuri’ arc is internally driven. She is an avoidant person who avoids pain, and tries to dismiss it, and the problem is all her coping strategies are unable to tackle the challenge at hand. She has to wrestle with her anxiety, and wrestle with the grief. A person who is so dismissive of stories that her culture has given her to help manage the grief, the tradition, and feelings of betrayal. Well Shuri feels all alone. And normally this type of person feels more comfortable with controlling the distance with people and tradition, to insert some space and not seek out closeness…but now she feels alone and it is too much.

Note this is parallel to the Queen Mother Ramonda who is also dealing with grief but also has different coping mechanisms and there is a parallel mirrors of Shuri and Ramonda.

Shuri does not want to cry, she is a dismissive avoidant person when it comes to anxiety (30% of people are), she wants to solve the problem and nip it in the bug. She hated how the heart shape herb could not be technology that cures her brother but it was not available at the key moment, she hates how she wanted to connect with her brother, mother, and father on the ancestral plane when she became black panther (a nearly unconscious desire), and this too she feels this was stolen from her by Killmonger. For as much as she wants this desire of closeness, another part of her wants revenge is more connected to her anger, her feelings of betrayal, her feelings of “abandonment”.

Thus she finally connects with her mother, and her mother is not gone when she offers mercy to Namor*. This is not what Shuri wants to do, but she picked a choice she did not want in order to feel connected to her mother, and she can hear the voice of her Queen mother in her head why it makes logical sense which is make the choice of mercy to unite Wakanda and Talokan.

Contrast this with Namor who picks his name No Love in the MCU lore, for he feels betrayed by the outside world he can walk through but his people can not. There was a cultural genocide, and he had to start anew with a new culture. And now that old culture could destroy the things he does care about and love. It is a similar desire with Shuri, both feel betrayed by an aspect of the kosmos and they must stand alone as their nation’s cultural hero.

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I have lots more thoughts about other aspects of the movie but this response is long enough for now. I am sure I will have space to voice those other things later.

[Psyren]

My biggest hope from this movie:

Spoiler

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Wakanda should now realize that pinning the bulk of their national defenses on one hero is ludicrous. The massive losses they suffered at the hands of Talokan were entirely due to the fact that Talokan has an army of supersoldiers instead of just one; by all means, have one titular Black Panther, but those next in line for succession like Nakia and M'Baku should be able to defend themselves properly too.

Shuri is sort of acknowledging this by developing the Midnight Angel suits for the elites of the Dora Milaje, but I don't think "create a bunch of Iron Women" is the right answer either; it detracts from the Dora's iconic visual design to stuff them all into blue CGI tin cans.

[Talakeal]

My biggest hope from this movie:

Spoiler

Show

Wakanda should now realize that pinning the bulk of their national defenses on one hero is ludicrous. The massive losses they suffered at the hands of Talokan were entirely due to the fact that Talokan has an army of supersoldiers instead of just one; by all means, have one titular Black Panther, but those next in line for succession like Nakia and M'Baku should be able to defend themselves properly too.

Shuri is sort of acknowledging this by developing the Midnight Angel suits for the elites of the Dora Milaje, but I don't think "create a bunch of Iron Women" is the right answer either; it detracts from the Dora's iconic visual design to stuff them all into blue CGI tin cans.

Its a comic book movie. Technology and power will always be held in the hands of a few heroes.

There is also no reason why every world power doesn't have their own "Iron Man Corps" or the equivalent, but we will never see it.

[Ramza00]

My biggest hope from this movie:

Spoiler

Show

Wakanda should now realize that pinning the bulk of their national defenses on one hero is ludicrous. The massive losses they suffered at the hands of Talokan were entirely due to the fact that Talokan has an army of supersoldiers instead of just one; by all means, have one titular Black Panther, but those next in line for succession like Nakia and M'Baku should be able to defend themselves properly too.

Shuri is sort of acknowledging this by developing the Midnight Angel suits for the elites of the Dora Milaje, but I don't think "create a bunch of Iron Women" is the right answer either; it detracts from the Dora's iconic visual design to stuff them all into blue CGI tin cans.

Tech

Spoiler: Tech

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They have forcefields and laser spears. Or was it sonic spears?

They do not need super strength… dexterity, speed, maneuverability , situational awareness is far more important in real life if you have force fields and sonic spears.

But like every action tech tv show or movie with forcefields the forcefields are useful when the plot requires it and it loses it when the plot does not require it (same thing with super-strength.) It is not real life. It is more fun to see a Dora Milaje twirling their spear blocking bullets than to see a border tribe raise their cloak and there is a forcefield which blocks bullets. Why did T’Challa give Steve Rogers a vibranium shield that was merely durable and used for smashing? Because you want the story to be selective when the Paladin has magic tech powers or not.