Black Panther: Wakanda Forever

[KillianHawkeye]

Re: Wakandan Succession

Pretty sure each of the 5 or 6 tribes has their own "royal family", which is why there is a succession challenge ritual at all. Any member of the Wakandan nobility seems to be allowed to challenge, it's just seen as a mere formality in Black Panther 1 due to everyone being happy with the status quo which has seemingly been in place for so long.

The most curious thing to me is that the throne reverted to Queen Ramunda after T'challa's death rather than someone new taking the throne. I suppose it may have been out of respect for T'challa that no one at all took the challenge? They don't really go into it in the film, but that makes enough sense to me, I guess.

I disagree that the challenge can happen at any time, though. Everyone was against Killmonger making a late challenge in the first film. It was only T'challa overruling them that allowed the second challenge to take place, because he felt Killmonger deserved it as a lost heir or whatever. It didn't seem to be a normal practice. So M'Baku is probably going to stay King until he dies or retires, I'd guess.

[M1982]

Good point about Killmonger's challenge to a reigning monarch being an exception of the general rule

[Trafalgar]

Re: Wakandan Succession

Pretty sure each of the 5 or 6 tribes has their own "royal family", which is why there is a succession challenge ritual at all. Any member of the Wakandan nobility seems to be allowed to challenge, it's just seen as a mere formality in Black Panther 1 due to everyone being happy with the status quo which has seemingly been in place for so long.

The most curious thing to me is that the throne reverted to Queen Ramunda after T'challa's death rather than someone new taking the throne. I suppose it may have been out of respect for T'challa that no one at all took the challenge? They don't really go into it in the film, but that makes enough sense to me, I guess.

I disagree that the challenge can happen at any time, though. Everyone was against Killmonger making a late challenge in the first film. It was only T'challa overruling them that allowed the second challenge to take place, because he felt Killmonger deserved it as a lost heir or whatever. It didn't seem to be a normal practice. So M'Baku is probably going to stay King until he dies or retires, I'd guess.

I like to think that there was a challenge but Queen Ramunda kicked their ass.

[Ramza00]

Re: Wakandan Succession

Pretty sure each of the 5 or 6 tribes has their own "royal family", which is why there is a succession challenge ritual at all. Any member of the Wakandan nobility seems to be allowed to challenge, it's just seen as a mere formality in Black Panther 1 due to everyone being happy with the status quo which has seemingly been in place for so long.

The most curious thing to me is that the throne reverted to Queen Ramunda after T'challa's death rather than someone new taking the throne. I suppose it may have been out of respect for T'challa that no one at all took the challenge? They don't really go into it in the film, but that makes enough sense to me, I guess.

I disagree that the challenge can happen at any time, though. Everyone was against Killmonger making a late challenge in the first film. It was only T'challa overruling them that allowed the second challenge to take place, because he felt Killmonger deserved it as a lost heir or whatever. It didn't seem to be a normal practice. So M'Baku is probably going to stay King until he dies or retires, I'd guess.

We do not know how the succession worked during the Blip when T'Challa was gone / dead for 5 years. Maybe we will learn more in the Disney plus show, or maybe we never learned what happened over the last 6 years of Wakanda MCU time.

[Wintermoot]

We do not know how the succession worked during the Blip when T'Challa was gone / dead for 5 years. Maybe we will learn more in the Disney plus show, or maybe we never learned what happened over the last 6 years of Wakanda MCU time.

I, for one, look forward to the flashback scene were we see Angela Bassett beating the crap out of M'baku to the stunned looks of awe around the waterfall.

[Kyberwulf]

I watched this movie. All together it wasn't bad. I agree it felt messy. I almost feel as though this could have been a Disney + series. It had a lot going on in it.

One question I have to ask. What are the Doro Malaje? I mean half the time they seem to be semi supersoldiers. M'Baku seems to take somee serious damage and just shrug it off. I am asking if there is an in universe reason why? Part of me wants to say that is because they have magical metal in their close that helps them be super human.

[Giggling Ghast]

The Dora Milaje are the personal guard of the Black Panther, though in practice they function more like Wakanda’s special forces.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Milaje

M’Baku in the comics has superhuman strength and durability as a result of consuming a sacred white gorilla’s flesh. In the MCU, he’s just a very tough dude, though I would imagine his people might gain some enhanced strength from their worship of Hanuman, the god of the Jabari tribe.

[Palanan]

Watched this the first night it was available on Disney+. And I can’t remember the last time I was so glad I didn’t pay to see a movie in the theater.

—Well, except for Eternals. And Black Widow. And Dr. Strange 2. And Love & Thunder. Just about all of the recent batch, really.

Except those were simply unengaging and poorly conceived. This movie was a bitterly frustrating experience on a personal level—all the more so for having enjoyed the first Black Panther so much, and for having waited so long to see more of Wakanda and its people.

Except we didn’t.

Spoiler

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With the exception of a quaint riverside scene or two, we saw nothing more of Wakanda than we did in the first movie—and in fact we saw a good deal less in this one. The first movie gave us some truly spectacular vistas, powerfully evoking the beauty and strength of the land itself. But here there’s only a token nod, in a scene which is a direct copy of a longer and more effective sequence from the first movie.

Otherwise, we only get a few city scenes and a brief glimpse of the Jabari lands, and a campfire on a beach at night. And there’s even less attention to the tribes of Wakanda, with generic happy citizens that give no real sense of the cultural diversity of the Wakandan nation. Despite having the name of the country in its title, there’s a disappointing lack of Wakanda in the movie itself.


Funeral and Tribute

While the opening funeral ceremony was touching, it felt too brief compared to the significance of the character and the real-world legacy of the actor. I would have liked to see how each of the tribes honored T’Challa in their own way—each tribe with their own processions, memorials, tributes, rituals.

It also would have been nice to see how T’Challa was honored as head of state on the international scene. A glimpse of a ceremony at one of his outreach centers, or even just a symbol of remembrance would have added a great deal—to say nothing of a few words from a speech by a young person whose life was changed by T’Challa’s decisions. Sadly we saw nothing like this.


United Nations

The scene at the UN really turned me off, because it felt like a petty and mean-spirited swipe at the international community. It flies in the face of the attitude T’Challa was aiming for, which was sharing through humility. Instead the scene is contrived and nothing like an actual UN meeting, and exists only to point a finger of blame.

Anyone who’s been paying attention to Africa over the past ten or fifteen years knows exactly which large country has been throwing its money and weight around—and this would be the one nation which would be most feverishly searching for vibranium, and whose soldiers Wakanda would be most likely to capture. But there’s not a trace of this here, and instead we have a gratuitous jab at nations based on their past rather than present involvement. It felt spiteful and unnecessary, and for me it put an ugly tinge on the rest of the movie.


Casual Murder Without Consequences

This really bothered me. There was a substantial body count on the streets of Cambridge, but no one seemed to care.

During the prolonged, unnecessary chase scene (another echo of the first movie) the local police set up a roadblock—which Riri firebombs in a strafing run, causing a tremendous explosion that sweeps away the patrol cars in an all-consuming fireball. There’s no way that some of those police officers weren’t killed or severely burned. But like a similar scene from the most recent Batman, we’re apparently not supposed to care about the ordinary people our “heroes” just casually killed.

And right after, during the fight on the Massachusetts Avenue Bridge, one of Namor’s people quickly cuts through several more police officers, who are never again acknowledged in any way. There isn’t so much as a regretful line from Shuri about civilian casualties, much less Riri—and there’s never a word about accountability for anyone involved.


Shuri

In the first movie I found her downright irritating, the bratty little sister, and during Infinity War she was a bit of a smarmy know-it-all. She’s grown some since then—as M’Baku acknowledged in the best line of the movie—and she’s set up to be an empathetic character. I don’t dislike her; but I don’t feel much of anything else for her, and I’m not especially motivated to root for her.

I’m also still not convinced she’s the best choice either for Black Panther or the next ruler of Wakanda, and the movie itself punts on a key aspect of claiming the throne. The ending felt more like a cheap gimmick than a meaningful setup for another movie—and while I like M’Baku, I’m not sure what he’s hoping to accomplish here, unless it turns out he’s Wakanda’s biggest practical joker.

As for Shuri’s path forward, I just don’t care. I was completely checked out long before the ridiculous giant top-heavy boat appeared (seriously, that thing should’ve capsized with the first ankle-high wave) and her final fight with Namor went from silly to absurd, when she takes a vibranium spear to the gut and then walks it off.

Also, with all the fighting of mer-people in the open air, no one thinks to just pull off their breathing masks? It's hard to care when so much nonsense is flying around.


Riri

In contrast to Shuri, there’s just not much to like about Riri. When we meet her she’s helping other students cheat and getting paid for it. This is outright academic dishonesty, which is a serious problem in the real world, and casually glorifying it here does no one any favors. Riri should be put on probation or expelled for what she’s doing.

And there’s no indication that she has any trace of heroism to her. When Peter Parker was starting out, he was helping people wherever he could, even dressed in his goofy red onesie. Riri is a super-genius tech prodigy who can actually freakin’ fly, but there’s not a word of her using her gifts to help anyone; she’s just boasting about her quantum computer and the YouTube channel that follows her. She seems to have no real personality apart from being extremely full of her own accomplishments. She’s unethical, uninteresting and not really likable, and I found nothing to draw me to the character.

As for her super-suit during the final battle, it looked too goofy for me to take it seriously. Most likely this was drawing on a different aesthetic for power armor, but it didn’t speak to me. Presumably she’ll have a different design for the Ironheart series.

Speaking of which, I’d been mildly looking forward to that, but after this introduction to the character I won’t be in a hurry to watch it. Now that Armor Wars will be a movie instead, that’s two fewer Marvel series for me to care about on Disney+.


Nakia

I’d been strongly rooting for her to be the next Black Panther, since she has experience dealing with the outside world tempered with compassion for many of its people. She’s also a much more interesting character to me, torn between her love for T’Challa and all she wants to do outside Wakanda. I’m not sure what the real-world dynamics were for favoring Letitia over Lupita, but I found Nakia’s second-rank status in this movie to be one more deep disappointment. The character we met in the first movie really deserved better.

Hand it to Nakia, though, for hiding her son in plain sight—among overlooked and abandoned children, in a country the rest of the world tries to forget whenever possible. It’s quietly brilliant, and allows Nakia to do some real good at the same time. Doing good is more of an abstraction for Shuri, and it doesn’t even factor for Riri, but for Nakia it’s deeply personal and central to her life and being. With the possible exception of M’Baku, there’s no one worthier of being Black Panther.


Okoye

She was amazing in the first movie—a character in soul-rending conflict and pain, thoroughly admirable for her devotion, her honor and her conscience.

But here she’s treated very badly for something that was no fault of her own—and I refuse to believe that Wakanda, which has its own satellite fleet and can likely penetrate any security system on Earth, suddenly and conveniently couldn’t access a single video to corroborate what Okoye was saying. Even a bodycam from a casually murdered and unacknowledged cop could have given valuable evidence, but somehow Wakanda can’t get that?

Even without that, this is Okoye, and her word should mean something. That it suddenly doesn’t speaks very poorly of the Queen, the Council, and Wakanda in general.


M’Baku

As much as I respected Chadwick Boseman, for me the true hero of the first movie is M’Baku, because he’s the one that made a heroic choice. In the first movie he was a force of nature and a power player from start to finish, and he didn’t disappoint in Infinity War.

But here M’Baku is almost reduced to a buffoon, whose role for most of the movie is to show how awesome Shuri is by contrast. That may serve a purpose in the movie as a whole, but it’s hardly respectful to M’Baku as a character. He deserved so much more.


That CIA Guy We’ve Seen Before

What exactly is Agent Ross doing here? In the first movie he was brave, loyal, dedicated and risked his life on the front lines to help stop a world war. (And then he sort of vanished, but still.)

Here he’s more of an afterthought, feeding the Wakandans a few dribbles of information before he’s handcuffed by his ex-wife. And the “twist” of Valentina being his ex-wife is utterly idiotic and contrived, exactly the sort of needless connection that just calls attention to itself. It smacks of being cutesy, and only further diminishes Ross—to say nothing of the ugly comment made later at his expense.


Namor

Utterly hated him from start to finish. He and his people murdered indiscriminately and without provocation, and he’s been planning a war for centuries without any real attempt to find an alternative. He’s supposed to be the “bad guy with a point,” but for reasons we can’t discuss here it really isn’t. Namor is just a brutal hypocrite who murders unarmed civilians, condones the elimination of witnesses and threatens an entire peaceful nation with slaughter and subjugation. His last-minute alliance with Shuri isn’t convincing in the slightest, and I have zero interest in seeing him in anything else.

Also, I get they wanted to distinguish his realm from the over-CGI’d monstrosity of Atlantis in Aquaman, but they failed utterly with the design and with basic marine science. Most of Namor’s supposedly glorious undersea realm looked grubby, silty and unimaginative, and it’s clear the director didn’t feel the need to listen to anyone with actual experience in marine ecology. A Caribbean coral reef inhabited by actual merfolk could have been a transcendent wonderland of color and delight, but instead we get…what, exactly? I couldn’t even tell, but it was awful.



This movie isn’t just a disappointment; it feels like a door slammed in my face. In the first movie, I felt like I was being welcomed wholeheartedly into a marvelous new world. But with this movie…I’ll just say I don’t feel that. Much the opposite.

Ever since the Wakanda series was announced, I’ve been eagerly looking forward to it, hoping to explore more of Wakanda’s cultures and biomes. Right now the series is more of a pipe dream than anything, and it’ll be years before it hits Disney+, if ever.

But I no longer care. I’m done with this director and done with Wakanda.

[ecarden]

So, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but not on Okoye. Her job is to protect the royal family, at which she has singularly failed at that point. It's not that she's disbelieved, it's that whether or not she could win is irrelevant. She took the crown princess into danger (if I'm recalling correctly, directly against orders from the queen) and then failed to protect her. Being fired for that is harsh, but not unreasonable.

[Dienekes]

I was amused watching it, that for a movie that actually involves itself quite a lot with the ideas of sovereignty, ownership, protecting borders and resources the Wakandans do not give a single burning crap about anyone's except their own.

Like the Avengers get away with it mostly because the movies just don't pay attention to it / it could be handwaved away with SHIELD being some sort of international group given access. And after SHIELD falls Avengers just carries on, at least until it suddenly does become a big deal with Civil War. But then, the fallout from that directly interacts with the rest of that movie along with basically everything until Endgame.

This brings up the concepts of sovereignty directly. Straight into the audience's face. And then has their main cast completely ignore it when convenient and kinda sorta pulling covert ops and potential kidnappings on foreign soil. Which is... not a great look.

Now what gets interesting is how this interacts with the show going on. They seem to be taking the idea that T'Challa's attempts at progressive peaceful trade and monetary based interference is in the process of failing. Possibly with the argument that government bodies are inherently selfish, resource consuming, and destructive. And you know. Fair enough. And there's interesting ways to go from that standpoint. I feel the easy kinda boring meaningless way is to completely disregard all the wrongs of Wakanda (as this movie mostly does) and just wag their fingers at everyone else. Or they can analyze how Wakanda is complicit with the various systems of international power, acting basically like any other hegemony throwing their weight around. Which could be interesting, but seems like it would be more work and would probably require adding nuance to Madame Not Hydra.

Though I will admit, I'm actually more interested in De Fontaine as a potential villain than Kang. Sure, she seems poised to slot into generic evil shady government figure, and may be some skrull or something with Secret Invasion, which would be disappointing but, ehh, I'll just say that twist is not without precedent. But I'm curious if they can make another normie threat. I quite liked Zemo, I'll be interested if they can do that again.

[TeChameleon]

So, just watched the movie, and... hmm.

Spoiler: Spoiler-riffic

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* As a tribute to Chadwick Boseman, I think it was serviceable, and I'm impressed that they managed to sneak what looked to be some genuinely heartfelt stuff through the usual soulless Hollywood meatgrinder.

* Letitia Wright looked like she was struggling a bit to carry the emotional weight of the movie, but I think a lot of that was her being hobbled a bit by the script- the emotional whiplash through what felt like some weird abortive form of the five stages of grief was just too abrupt to be carried off convincingly by even the most talented actor.

* Both Wakanda and Atlantis (I don't care, I struggle to remember even approximately what name they substituted for it) suffered from what I call created-world-abbreviation, where they had to try and make us care about not one, but two separate cultures that have no direct real-world equivalent in less than three hours, so we get happy generic children playing while wearing traditional garb and so forth. Didn't really work, had trouble caring about either much, even though I kind of wanted to.

** As others have stated, the random murder of extras felt weird and wrong.

* Namor. Namor, Namor, Namor. This is where the movie really fell apart for me. Ergh, not sure how to start...

** Why no widows-peak or angry-Spock-eyebrows? If you're going to include his stupid little ankle-wings, you may as well include all of his 'classic' look. And I haaaaaaaaaaaaated that douchey little chinstrap he had going on.

** A lot of the Maya stuff looked somewhere between ludicrous and idiotic underwater. Where the hell did they even get those feathers from? And loose robes while swimming? Uh..? Would it really have been that hard to preserve the general aesthetic while making it even marginally practical underwater? Although I did like the touch of having some kids playing ulama (pitz?) that we saw briefly when Namor was showing Shuri around.

** Speaking of Maya... making Namor Maya while keeping a lot of his comic trappings rendered the character kind of incoherent. Him yelling "Imperius Rex!" ended up having a Mesoamerican character randomly shouting in (mangled) Latin. Having him take his name from (mangled) Spanish for 'no love' is nonsense- where did he learn Spanish?, and having him be set up as immortal god-king is bizarre. It changes his motivation from 'I must protect my people' to 'I have a xenophobic grudge based on stories that I heard as a child and have nursed it to rabid raving hatred over the course of five hundred years with a grand total of one shown interaction with the surface world prior to the movie'.

** His magic spear, that could kill (vibranium?) airplanes with the flimsy excuse of being 'raw vibranium'. If 'raw' vibranium could slice right through processed(?) vibranium, why not use that with all your weapons? Or at least edge/tip them with it?

** This is mostly a personal preference thing, but having Namor be so speedy and nimble in combat felt... odd. Comics-Namor is tanky as all get-out, and prefers to just walk/fly through blasts and shots. He's really not much of a dodger.

** Namor's characterization felt inconsistent, with only one unifying touchpoint. His jumping from wanting to ally with Wakanda (to murder the surface world) to psychotic rage that Wakanda had dared to act to rescue a member of their royal family (so he decided to murder that specific bit of the surface world), to grudgingly allying with Wakanda at the end in a Machiavellian scheme that, long-term, Wakanda would be isolated and turn to them as allies (to murder the surface world) was sort of jarring. Especially since he really hadn't shown much indication of being clever prior to that point.

** Speaking of inconsistent... why the heck did Namor show up in Wakanda, murder a bunch of people (including the Queen) and then just... leave? He clearly had the upper hand at that point, already wanted to murder everyone, and was in a prime position to do so. And then he just wandered off after making vague threats and telling Shuri that she was the queen now. What.

Going back to other stuff...

* With how isolated Atlantis was supposed to have been, where on Earth did they get the breathing masks from? Especially in the 16th Century? And how did they do any kind of metallurgy? And how did they maintain genetic diversity with a starting pool of what looked like less than 20 people?

* Did... did the Atlanteans sink the piece of land they started from? Because their variant of the heart-shaped herb was growing on land, in 'vibranium-rich soil' (and then it was growing in salt water?). Then all of a sudden their vibranium mound (vein, whatever it was supposed to be) was deep in the Atlantic. The geography in this film hurts my brain, with characters zipping back and forth across the Atlantic like they were splashing through a puddle on the sidewalk and major landmarks wandering around like they'd gotten lost at a convention.

* With the Midnight Angel suits... I kept thinking the Predator had wandered into this movie by accident. Potentially neat concept, unfortunate design.

* Riri was kind of disappointing- it really felt like we could have gotten a 'Science Sisters' to equal the Banner-Stark Science Bros if she'd been given a bit more screentime with Shuri. Instead she was just sort of... there. And then she left, despite being all excited about being 'recruited' earlier.

* How did the Contessa bug the beads, exactly? They're beads. It's not like there were internal electronics (at least that non-Wakandan science could access) she could slide a transmitter into.

* T'Challa, son of T'Challa felt both clever and lazy at the same time. It lets later screenwriters timeskip a little, and all of a sudden we have T'Challa the Black Panther again.

Overall, the slower, more contemplative pacing was good for a lot of things, but also let a lot of the cracks show through, and Namor was a weirdly garbled-feeling villain, with his 'more complex' origins not bearing up under scrutiny (at least as presented). And Shuri's plan at the end was dumb.

[GloatingSwine]

So, just watched the movie, and... hmm.

Spoiler: Spoiler-riffic

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* How did the Contessa bug the beads, exactly? They're beads. It's not like there were internal electronics (at least that non-Wakandan science could access) she could slide a transmitter into.

Spoiler

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Alien science. Even bet that she's a Skrull. In fact I think it's reasonable to assume that everyone Ross speaks to in person in his scenes is a Skrull and if he hadn't been sprung at the end of the movie he'd be replaced as well.

Basically all his scenes after the first are MCU tax to set up Secret Invasion.

[Talakeal]

It's my understanding from the comics that raw vibranium is stronger but a lot less stable, and once it absorbs too much kinetic energy it will simply explode.

Also, I would hazard a guess that the Eternal or one of Marvels other "ancient aliens" are to blame for any of their anachronistic technology.

[Trafalgar]

Spoiler: Mickey the Impaler

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Has surviving being impaled through the stomach become a Disney thing?

Shuri survived being impaled.
Reva survived being impaled twice.
Tony Stark survived being impaled.
Kylo Ren survived being impaled.

Are there others I have forgotten?

[TeChameleon]

It's my understanding from the comics that raw vibranium is stronger but a lot less stable, and once it absorbs too much kinetic energy it will simply explode.

... from where I sit, that sounds like an argument in favour of using it, at least for projectiles.

Spoiler: Mickey the Impaler

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Has surviving being impaled through the stomach become a Disney thing?

Shuri survived being impaled.
Reva survived being impaled twice.
Tony Stark survived being impaled.
Kylo Ren survived being impaled.

Are there others I have forgotten?

Spoiler: Impalings

Show

Not sure that's a Disney thing, necessarily- it really feels like the modern variant on the old 'shot in the shoulder' injury, right down to the quietly ignoring all the various hideous complications.

Spoiler: Back to Wakanda Forever

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One thing I forgot in my various ramblings was my utter disappointment that Namor didn't use any of the enormous, stupid-looking monsters that were his stock-in-trade for most of the Silver Age. Frankly, a couple of url=https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Giganto_(Atlantean_Beast)]Gigantos[/url] could have gone a long way towards making the Atlanteans a more credible threat, given that one of them can facetank a direct nuclear strike. But noooo, the magic fish-people had to be 'realistic'

As an aside, one thing I did like was Tenoch Huerta repeatedly striking Namor's signature 'one leg straight, one leg bent' hovering pose. Even the kid playing lil' Namor did it.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, the problem with using the stuff as projectiles. Is they don't want any of the magic metal to fall into anyone else's hands.

[gbaji]

Not Movie Spiderman. Catching cars seems to be close to the upper limit of his ability.

That's comic book Spidey too. Some of the portrayals have some serious variation in his strength level. He's "strong", and clearly in the "super human" level. But nowhere near Thor/Thing/Hulk/Namor levels of strength.

On the average, Spidey is treated as really strong. He doesn't rely on it in the way that the Hulk does, he's very much about using his wits first, but examples like him holding the ferry together or holding back a collapsing building are pretty common to just about any movie he's in. It's definitely somewhere significantly north of car level, though he can also definitely lift a car. He usually will dodge attacks even if he could tank them, though, and is very agile. Namor is sort of similar in that he's also nimble, and both move in 3d space effectively. Namor might be slightly stronger, but he also might just rely on strength more. We don't see him do anything terribly clever. Of the two, Spidey is definitely more likely to pull his punches.

Again. There's "really strong", as in, if you punch a normal person with full strength, your fist will go right through them. That's where Spider Man is. Then there's "absurdly strong", as in, if you punch a building with full strength, you'll pulverize said building and kill everyone in it. That's where the "top hitters" in the Marvel Universe are. The Hulk once held up a freaking mountain (yeah, just don't think too hard about it though). Spider Man is significantly stronger than a normal human (I'd say "can pick up a car and toss it a short distance" is accurate), but his main power is his speed and agility and spider sense that allows him to just not get hit by things.


I do think the Namor in the film was a significant departure from the comic book version, and not all in good ways. I suppose they needed to differentiate him from Aquaman. It also felt like they really really really felt the need to drum up yet another "indigenous people/victims who've grown powerful in secret" bit, so as to bookend Wakanda itself. But then kinda took a left turn, then another, then fell into a dump truck, and more or less lost the whole point they were going after.

The cosmetic stuff, being more nimble than he should have been, etc, were annoying, but I could get past that. And I honestly didn't initially have an issue with the whole "I'm at war with the surface world" bit either. That's actually pretty accurate to the original Namor, as introduced back in the day (he was more or less the aquatic version of the freaking Mole Man if you stop and think about it). It's the direction they took with it after that point that was... well... weird. There was rationalization after rationalization given, but when you got to the end, none of it really made any sense. We're left not quite being sure of the motivation for their actions. Do they want to remain hidden and fear discovery? Then why do any of what they did? They could have easily sabotaged the deep sea thingie, and just moved on, and none would have been the wiser. The entire conflict was completely unnecessary.

Which leaves us with: They really want to come onto the world stage and be a presense. In which case, they did it kinda exactly "wrong". Are the concerned because they are vulnerable to attack? They suggest that's not the case, but then seem super worried if anyone even knows of their existence. If they really are that powerful, then why not do exactly what the Wakandan's did, just laying claim to all Vibranium on the ocean floor instead? If they wanted to openly reveal themselves, that is. As it is, his actions really make zero sense.

And that's before we get into questions about population growth rates starting from a relatively small tribe of folks in the 1500s to today, yet claiming he had more soldiers in his army than Wakanda had blades of grass. Then also seeming to be able to sense anything and everything going on everywhere in the worlds oceans, but we never seem them traveling via any means other than hitching rides on whales. It's implied (sorta) that having access to vibranium some how gives them great power, but we're not shown *how*. Unlike Wakanda, we're not shown that they have any technological capabilities, except when we see advanced tech breathing masks and water bomb thingies (and apparently sufficient metalurgical abilities to work vibranium). It's a bit disjointed. Like they really wanted to show these people being very "one with nature", but also needed them to have special weapons and tech, so they just kinda punted?

Although, to be fair, we're kinda left with the same gaps with Wakanda anyway. We're shown super tech, and buildings, and fllying vessels, and it's all waved away with "vibranium" as the explanation. But, uh, not everything is made out of vibranium, right? I mean, the buildings are presumably made from normal materials, like steel, aluminium, plastics, etc. Where is the industry they would need to make this stuff? Where are the mines? The foundaries? The factories? We're supposed to believe that it's beautiful lush natural lands, and high tech buildings, living in harmony, but nothing exists in between? Er... It's a very "first world, I drive my electric car to the organic market, while wearing modern fabricated clothing, and listening to music on my iphone, with ear buds, all while clapping myself on the back for being so eco friendly or something". Um... You get that this stuff all comes at a cost of the "dirty" bits being offshored somewhere else, right?

But Wakanda isn't presented as offshoring its industry. Again though, to be even more fair, we could say the same thing about every high tech/magic civilization in the MCU (well, or a lot of made up universes). We saw the same sort of thing with Asgard as well. So I get the hand-wave bits. Kinda. But if you're actually making a point about a civilization somehow being "better" because they live in greater hamony or something, that's the kind of hand waving that does bother me a bit.

It's mostly an issue with every plot being a "save the world" type thing.

Nobody really has an issue with the more street level comics, or adventures like Strange's where other heroes have no real way to participate.

Big ol' world threatening apocalypses are harder to justify. Both in comics and on screen, some comics are definitely frigging crazy, no argument there.

Eh. Have there really been any huge "save the world" stories in this phase? It's all been much like phase 1 was. More introductions and origin stories, with a small amount of interlinking going on to build up to something.

The catch phrase is "Avengers Assemble" for a reason. It's also a team that was somewhat unique all along in the comics in that their membership constantly changed over time, often included characters who had their own books, going off on their own adventures, and then "assembled" for major things (well, sorta). So yeah, I'm not bothered by their apparently absense. It's following the pattern in the comic books (well, earlier comic books before every other story was a massive crossover).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gbaji
The Hulk once held up a freaking mountain (yeah, just don't think too hard about it though).

It was an alien mountain on an artificially assembled planet, though, so it probably had some funky crystalline structure that prevented it from shearing and crumbling all around him. Or something like that.

Originally Posted by gbaji
It also felt like they really really really felt the need to drum up yet another "indigenous people/victims who've grown powerful in secret" bit, so as to bookend Wakanda itself. But then kinda took a left turn, then another, then fell into a dump truck, and more or less lost the whole point they were going after.

Wait, they had a point?

Originally Posted by gbaji
There was rationalization after rationalization given, but when you got to the end, none of it really made any sense.

Yup, they’re brutal thugs who casually murder innocent bystanders who might be witnesses, but we’re supposed to be all “awww” because they, I dunno, tickle whales or something? Despite the fact they’re clinging to a five-hundred-year-old grudge.

At the very least, Wakanda had people who were out in the modern world and could see its value, case in point being Nakia. Namorlandia doesn’t even have that, just “murder the witnesses, and unarmed women and children too.”

Really, what was the point again? Because the final effect is to convince me to avoid any future Namor-related media if at all possible.

Originally Posted by gbaji
It's also a team that was somewhat unique all along in the comics in that their membership constantly changed over time, often included characters who had their own books, going off on their own adventures….

Sounds like the X-Men, who were constantly gaining and losing members, and with characters pursuing solo stories in separate titles.

[gnownek99]

It was amazing!! Little tiny, foot wings are cool.

[gbaji]

It was an alien mountain on an artificially assembled planet, though, so it probably had some funky crystalline structure that prevented it from shearing and crumbling all around him. Or something like that.

Ok. It's impressive that you caught the exact reference. And to be fair, IIRC, Iron man's arm was being used as a lever to "help" as well. And yeah, we just let physics weep over in the corner over there...

Wait, they had a point?

Now you're forcing me to think. Er... They were trying to prevent the surface dwellers from using vibranium. Because, see, the moral of the story is that only certain nations are responsible and "good" enough to handle the awesome responsiblity that is the power of vibranium. And apparently, those nations are not ones which choose their leaders via democratic processes, or have checks and balances to "supreme executive power", but rather either worship them as god kings, or select them via ritual combat, and said kings are all powerful and can't be overruled even if they are doing incredibly dangerous/dumb/harmful things.

Hmmm... Yeah. Maybe that doesn't actually make sense as a moral concept after all.

Sounds like the X-Men, who were constantly gaining and losing members, and with characters pursuing solo stories in separate titles.

Yeah. I thought of this right after writing that. X-Men did have the whole "mutant" niche though. And there weren't the same degree of membership changes back in the original series. It wasn't until they started spliting off into an extra 3 or 4 of them that things got kinda "silly" (X-force. Seriously...? Loved them in Deadpool2 though!). I actually stopped collecting comics back in the mid 90s due to how silly Marvel got with things in pursuit of more money.

Prior to that point, they had a single roster for the "original" group, then went more international with their "new" group (introduced Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler, Collosus, etc). Then they trimmed out some of the original team (Beast, Angel, and Iceman), and dropped a few of the new folks (Banshee, Polaris, Havok? (can't remember)). Uh... then they killed of Thunderbird pretty early on, cause everything he did was already present on the team between Collosus and Wolverine, so...

That core team stayed around for a pretty long time, with the occasional addition (Kitty Pryde, and Rogue much later on). Some heroes came along with them for a while during a story arc or something, but that was about it. Oh, and of course, there was the whole New Mutants thing. But they were always in their own book and kinda off to the side.

The Avengers kinda kept a core membership. But that was pretty much Captain America and Iron Man for the first 2 or 3 decades of the comic. The rest really fluttered around. But they always had a pretty strong roster. Usually had a heavy hitter (Thor, Hulk, Hercules), people with odd powers (Scarlet Witch, Mantis, Vision, Quicksilver), and various sneaky/skilled folks as well (too many to list here).


Oh. And speaking of X-men. I did notice that they did actually use the "M-word" in this film. So that happened.

[Joran]

Oh. And speaking of X-men. I did notice that they did actually use the "M-word" in this film. So that happened.

Yeah, they're referencing the M-word more often. I assume they'll enter the MCU eventually, although, the fake-out in Wandavision was hilarious.

Spoiler: Ms Marvel

Show

They used the m-word during Ms. Marvel, along with the cool 90's guitar riff from the X-Men cartoon.

Spoiler: Dr. Strange 2

Show

And of course Professor X shows up, along with Blackbolt, as a member of the Illuminati. I think this is the first reference to Inhumans existing since the Inhumans TV show flopped and Agents of SHIELD got sectioned off from the rest of the MCU.

[Kornaki]

T'challa would have recognized this guy for the psychopath he is and killed him.

This movie does raise a somewhat interesting question. If the US found out that Kim Jong Un was personally in Boston, covertly meeting an MIT scientist, what would they do? Would they arrest him? Somehow the Boston swat team is what broke my immersion, because I couldn't decide if it fundamentally made any sense.

[gbaji]

Yeah, they're referencing the M-word more often. I assume they'll enter the MCU eventually, although, the fake-out in Wandavision was hilarious.

Spoiler: Ms Marvel

Show

They used the m-word during Ms. Marvel, along with the cool 90's guitar riff from the X-Men cartoon.

A buddy of mine, who's really into following all the MCU gossip, made a big deal out of it. But if you notice, she says it's a "mutation". Didn't actually use the word "mutant".

Spoiler: Dr. Strange 2

Show

And of course Professor X shows up, along with Blackbolt, as a member of the Illuminati. I think this is the first reference to Inhumans existing since the Inhumans TV show flopped and Agents of SHIELD got sectioned off from the rest of the MCU.

Yup. But that was in an alternate universe. It was nice to see (even though the actual actions of the folks there, including professor X, were frankly stupid and insane for <plot reasons>). But doesn't say anything about introducing actual X-men style "Mutants" into the main MCU setting.

Not that Namor calling himself a mutant has any direct bearing on introducing modern mutants as a source of superpowers into the setting either, but it at least stepped over that legal hurdle (they literally couldn't use the word "Mutant" as a type of character due to trademarks/rights/whatever issues). So... progress?

T'challa would have recognized this guy for the psychopath he is and killed him.

Maybe. Maybe not. The problem is that Namor is initially presented to the Wakandans as someone very similar to themselves. Hiding from the rest of the world. Holding huge power due to vibranium. If you think back to the first film, he's not acting towards outsiders much differently than T'challa did. Well. Except that he acts that way towards the Wakandan's too, and insists on them joining his "side" or being an enemy. So there's that.

This movie does raise a somewhat interesting question. If the US found out that Kim Jong Un was personally in Boston, covertly meeting an MIT scientist, what would they do? Would they arrest him? Somehow the Boston swat team is what broke my immersion, because I couldn't decide if it fundamentally made any sense.

Not a great analogy. More like if Prince Harry was meeting a student at MIT, would a swat team be sent to go in guns blazing and arrest them all? She's the daughter of a head of state, of a recognized nation, which is not an enemy to the US as far as we know (more complicated than that, but still).

The point of that scene is to show the evils of western colonial powers, who can't help but be over the top ridiculous and violent for no apparent reason at all. You do get that the entire theme of the Black Panther films is to turn the power structure upside down and show a nation(s) from colonized rather than colonial geographical regions holding all the actual power, and then show the ramifications of that. So yeah, you kinda have to go full on with the "we can't allow this!" bit. And yeah. They have to hit you over the head with this. But then, honestly, run afoul of their own theme, because they have to also somehow show Namor's people as "enemies", but also "victims" at the same time.

Which makes the whole thing a muddled mess. Real people in the real world don't actually behave like this. Only on TV and in films do they do so. And usually it's precisely because the writers are trying really really hard to get a socio-politcal "message" out there, but then have a hard time writing a coherent story along the way (which maybe suggests that the "message" has some issues, but I'm not going further than that). It's too bad too. Because they could write some great stories with these characters and peoples. But they can't help but do it "wrong".

[Joran]

Not that Namor calling himself a mutant has any direct bearing on introducing modern mutants as a source of superpowers into the setting either, but it at least stepped over that legal hurdle (they literally couldn't use the word "Mutant" as a type of character due to trademarks/rights/whatever issues). So... progress?

It's because Marvel had sold the movie rights to the X-Men to Fox. There was some weird partitioning of the Marvel properties, including allowing Quicksilver in both studios' movies, but only using some portion of their backstory.

We both have [Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch]. There’s a specific arrangement with those two characters that would allow us to use them with “Avengers,” but not discuss or reference their mutant or Magneto-related lineage. They can use them as mutants and as Magneto’s relatives, but cannot have anything to do with “The Avengers.”

The MCU couldn't use any mutant characters or use the concept of mutants. Earlier on, it looked like Inhumans would be the mutant substitute in the MCU with the movie (later turned into a TV show) and Agents of SHIELD using them. I remember there being some controversy where the Inhumans played a more important role in the comics, with the X-Men taking a backseat, because Marvel didn't own the movie rights (someone who is more familiar with the comics can weigh in if this is true.)

In 2019, Disney purchased 21st Century Fox and along with it, the movie rights to the X-Men, so they're free to start using the X-Men (and Fantastic Four) again in the MCU.

Spider-man movie rights however are owned by Sony, hence why they haven't reverted back. There is an agreement between Marvel and Sony to collaborate and use each other's characters, but as long as Sony keeps pumping out Spider-man movies, they can hold onto the movie rights.

[Kornaki]

.
Not a great analogy. More like if Prince Harry was meeting a student at MIT, would a swat team be sent to go in guns blazing and arrest them all? She's the daughter of a head of state, of a recognized nation, which is not an enemy to the US as far as we know (more complicated than that, but still).

They were fairly convinced wakanda was behind the attack at the start, so I think my analogy is closer, but not perfect.

[Clertar]

God forbid that a Marvel movie remind us that today's post-colonial nations were and are built on the genocide of indigenous people

[ecarden]

This movie does raise a somewhat interesting question. If the US found out that Kim Jong Un was personally in Boston, covertly meeting an MIT scientist, what would they do? Would they arrest him? Somehow the Boston swat team is what broke my immersion, because I couldn't decide if it fundamentally made any sense.

I mean, even accepting the analogy...of course we wouldn't? He's the leader of a nuclear power and has neither been indicted nor convicted of any crimes in the US? Arresting him would be insanely risky for essentially no benefit? Exactly the same as Shuri, in fact.

But my impression was they weren't after Shuri at all, but after Riri, in order to make sure she wasn't killed (after all, she'd invented the tech which had ended in a massacre). Which made the whole 'let's murder a bunch of people thing' sort of worse...

[GloatingSwine]

T'challa would have recognized this guy for the psychopath he is and killed him.

This movie does raise a somewhat interesting question. If the US found out that Kim Jong Un was personally in Boston, covertly meeting an MIT scientist, what would they do? Would they arrest him? Somehow the Boston swat team is what broke my immersion, because I couldn't decide if it fundamentally made any sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense at all.

Even if the US decided to take official action in a case like that local SWAT would not be involved. It would be DHS or Secret Service.

The MCU couldn't use any mutant characters or use the concept of mutants. Earlier on, it looked like Inhumans would be the mutant substitute in the MCU with the movie (later turned into a TV show) and Agents of SHIELD using them. I remember there being some controversy where the Inhumans played a more important role in the comics, with the X-Men taking a backseat, because Marvel didn't own the movie rights (someone who is more familiar with the comics can weigh in if this is true.)

The focus on the Inhumans on the comic side was down to Ike Perlmutter. His influence over the MCU ended at Civil War which was the point where Kevin Feige went to the overbosses at Disney and said "get him out of the picture or I walk".

Perlmutter is, alongside being bitter and vindictive about not having the X-Men license, amazingly tightfisted. He was the one who pushed Terence Howard out as Rhodey after Iron Man 1 because he was asking for too much money (and he figured the audience wouldn't notice swapping two black guys anyhow), and he wanted Hulk to lead the pro-reg side in Civil War because Mark Ruffalo was a lot cheaper than Robert Downey Jr, which was what prompted Feige to finally issue his ultimatum which led to Marvel Studios being completely disconnected from Marvel Comics rather than subordinate to it.

It was also him who insisted on Scott Buck as showrunner on Inhumans and Iron Fist because Buck's reputation, alongside ruining the last season of Dexter, is doing stuff fast and on the cheap. (Why do you think they throw Medusa under the bus in episode 1? The most expensive character to include because of the need for CGI hair, and why do you think nobody on Iron Fist got any training for fight scenes at all? That ****'s expensive and time consuming just shoot wide angle in the dark!)

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: closed for review.