OOTS #1270 - The Discussion Thread

[Metastachydium]

No no no, it’s wizards that have no sense of right or wrong!

I feel that you're being somewhat unfair there!

[SlashDash]

It's pretty clear why Serini didn't want Dorukan to know she's there - and it's not the oath - it's what she actually says : She's poaching monsters from his dungeon to join her. She's literally robbing him. Obviously he wouldn't like that.


As for the notion that they invented the oath to kick Soon out, it doesn't seem logical. Girard expected Soon to break his oath, that was the whole point of his bet with Serini and the hologram in the desert.

To paraphrase Haley here, Girard had no idea how a Paladin's mentality works, or he wouldn't make that bet. So assuming they made the oath expecting a paladin to be the only one to keep his end seems illogical.

What would be the point of doing it to him if you expect him to break it?


The point of the oath, based at least on what the crayon story showed us, was that the party couldn't stop fighting after Kraggor's death. So they made the oath as a way of splitting up peacefully. It was basically teacher's way of separating children who fight each other.

It is pretty much given that those of them who had no quarrel with each other would still be in touch - like Dorukan and Lirian.

[danielxcutter]

“Girard” and “logical” require interplanar travel to connect, so.

[brian 333]

Serini may have been poaching monsters from Dorukon's dungeon because she knew Dorukon had been defeated. It would have been beneficial to recruit them before Xykon could, at the least, and to remove them as obstacles before adventurers killed them while going after Xykon.
If childlike Sunny didn't know that Papa Dorukon was dead, Serini may have simply lied to him to avoid a grief-stricken child trying to get revenge on his killer

[Metastachydium]

Serini may have been poaching monsters from Dorukon's dungeon because she knew Dorukon had been defeated. It would have been beneficial to recruit them before Xykon could, at the least, and to remove them as obstacles before adventurers killed them while going after Xykon.
If childlike Sunny didn't know that Papa Dorukon was dead, Serini may have simply lied to him to avoid a grief-stricken child trying to get revenge on his killer

Yeah, Dorukan and Serini/Sunny had tea every other week. That's what made the "lie" that Dorukan wouldn't want them "snooping around" in his dungeon believable.

[WanderingMist]

As for the notion that they invented the oath to kick Soon out, it doesn't seem logical. Girard expected Soon to break his oath, that was the whole point of his bet with Serini and the hologram in the desert.

The bet's with his family, not with Serini.

See, this is exactly why i come to these forums: in depth discussion of left handed instruments.

As someone who played a large brass instrument in school, all string instruments have it easy since you can breathe while playing.

[snowblizz]

No no no, it’s wizards that have no sense of right or wrong!

you would say they are morally ambidextrous?

[137beth]

Oh my northern gods the callback to Strip 32 is perfect!
[/late to the party]

[danielxcutter]

you would say they are morally ambidextrous?

That would be having no sense of right and left.

[bunsen_h]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I feel compelled to point out that Dorukon's Dungeons wasn't necessarily her only source of monsters.

We saw her taking delivery of a bunch of purple worms, so probably not. Assuming the accuracy of the crayon drawing, of course, and that she didn't somehow nick the worms herself but had them delivered by other people.

[Rinazina]

Dear forumites, there is something I am missing.

• Serini knows that Xykon killed Dorukan (at least, she does now).
• This should have happened 6 months before OOTS entered the dungeon (right? I have this recollection from some of the prequel books?).
• However, Serini mentions Dorukan in the last comic. It's like she hasn't discovered it yet?

Am I forgetting some important information, or could this be the hook for a new backstory exposition?

Thanks

[hamishspence]

The last but one panel of this comic is a flashback. In that flashback Serini is not yet aware that Dorukan is dead.

At some point after that, she discovered Xykon killed him. Hence her mentioning that Xykon killed Dorukan and Lirian, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1249.html

[Metastachydium]

Precisely. It's nothing outlandish, really. I mean, the guy's own employees weren't sure whatever became of him shortly before Xykon moved in.

[arimareiji]

you would say they are morally ambidextrous?

Thanks, it's been a while since I've seen even a moderately-clever malapropist joke outside of a Weird Al video. (^_~)b

[masamune1]

Dear forumites, there is something I am missing.

• Serini knows that Xykon killed Dorukan (at least, she does now).
• This should have happened 6 months before OOTS entered the dungeon (right? I have this recollection from some of the prequel books?).
• However, Serini mentions Dorukan in the last comic. It's like she hasn't discovered it yet?

Am I forgetting some important information, or could this be the hook for a new backstory exposition?

Thanks

Basically, she didn't discover Durokan was dead until at least 6 months after the Order showed up in his dungeon.

It's entirely possible that she discovered it while raiding his dungeon for monsters, in fact.

She presumably thought that all of the goblins and monsters running around worked for Durokan, and only later discovered they served Xykon.

I can imagine her spying on the dungeon, seeing a bunch of monsters running around, and thinking to herself that Durokan has decided to beef up security and that she wants a slice of that action, unaware of the terrible truth until it was much too late.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think it's still telling that none of them took the oath entirely seriously. Though it's possible that Dorukan used that age bonus to his Wisdom score to realize that continuing to completely flaunt the oath was a bit of a jackass thing to do, especially when Soon never broke it. Still, Lirian and Dorukan were still continuing their relationship, Girard setting his message trap to alert Serini, and Serini sneaking into Dorukan's Dungeon do show they didn't really care about the oath that much.

Also maybe Dorukan didn't want Serini on his premises for a reason outside the oath.

Well, the totally jackass thing to do was obviously following the oath to the letter.
Dorukan dating Lirian, Serini sneaking, or Girard sending messages didn't endanger the gates in any way.

While the SG, being so "honorable to the letter", kind of "created" Redcloak.

[KorvinStarmast]

I can imagine her spying on the dungeon, seeing a bunch of monsters running around, and thinking to herself that Durokan has decided to beef up security and that she wants a slice of that action, unaware of the terrible truth until it was much too late.

And then having to GTFO once Elan tripped the self destruct button. Which was only a day or so after that strip? She and Sunny either were almost done and left before Elan did the stupid thing, or, she and Sunny heard the rumbling and got the heck out. Which might mean that she has one more thing that annoys here about the Order: they showed her how stupid, collectively, they are with that dumb stunt.

[gatemansgc]

Well, that's confirmation that Sunny was indeed the Beholder from 1238 strips ago. RIP, horned bugbear theory, you weren't really credible anymore anyway.

horned bugbear theory???? that sounds hilarious

[faustin]

No no no, it’s wizards that have no sense of right or wrong!

In a wizard battle, is not a matter of who is right, but who is left.

Disintegrate + gust of wind.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, the totally jackass thing to do was obviously following the oath to the letter.
Dorukan dating Lirian, Serini sneaking, or Girard sending messages didn't endanger the gates in any way.

While the SG, being so "honorable to the letter", kind of "created" Redcloak.

Those things don't actually follow at all from one another.

[brian 333]

Basically, she didn't discover Durokan was dead until at least 6 months after the Order showed up in his dungeon.

Source for this?

It's entirely possible that she discovered it while raiding his dungeon for monsters, in fact.

She presumably thought that all of the goblins and monsters running around worked for Durokan, and only later discovered they served Xykon.

Does this not contradict the first quoted statement?

I can imagine her spying on the dungeon, seeing a bunch of monsters running around, and thinking to herself that Durokan has decided to beef up security and that she wants a slice of that action, unaware of the terrible truth until it was much too late.

Is there information to support this? Or is it simply imagination-based?

Why is it not possible that she knew Dorukon was dead, and took advantage of the situation to recruit more monsters? Serini is known to lie when it suits her, and not telling the child-like Sunny her boss was murdered is a lie of kindness.

[masamune1]

Source for this?

The comic.

Does this not contradict the first quoted statement?

No, it doesn't.

Is there information to support this? Or is it simply imagination-based?

Why is it not possible that she knew Dorukon was dead, and took advantage of the situation to recruit more monsters? Serini is known to lie when it suits her, and not telling the child-like Sunny her boss was murdered is a lie of kindness.

I literally said "I can imagine", so obviously I'm just speculating.

It's possible she was lying, but the obvious interpretation is that she thought Dorukan was still alive as that is how she phrased it.

There wouldn't be much reason for her to lie about this. Sunny would be on-board with rescuing monsters from Xykon after all.

Up to Rich to confirm or deny any of this either way.

[pearl jam]

Source for this?



Does this not contradict the first quoted statement?



Is there information to support this? Or is it simply imagination-based?

Why is it not possible that she knew Dorukon was dead, and took advantage of the situation to recruit more monsters? Serini is known to lie when it suits her, and not telling the child-like Sunny her boss was murdered is a lie of kindness.

I think the intent of their statement is 6 months after (he died when) the Order showed up in his dungeon, but it's a little bit unclear from the way it was written

[danielxcutter]

Anyways the implication is that she didn't learn that Dorukan had croaked at that point. Which means it was relatively recent.

Hmm. That does explain why her caster friends getting murdered by Xykon was such a big thing beyond the obvious. For her, Dorukan at least is a very fresh wound.

[ozmar]

That was a fun callback! To think what could have been if the Order had actually called her back. It also puts into perspective how much the art style has grown in 18 years.

Holy crap! I've been reading this story for 18 years!

This is awesome. Thanks so much, Giant, for this story. I can't wait (but clearly, can and will wait) to see how it resolves, and also kind of hope it never ends.

-Ozmar the Patient

[brian 333]

Anyways the implication is that she didn't learn that Dorukan had croaked at that point. Which means it was relatively recent.

That's the part my question was about. What source do we have to support the idea that Serini didn't know Dorukon had died? Serini was an epic rogue moving around in a dungeon at least nominally under Xykon's control. Play the character yourself: how would you not know about Xykon? She already knew that Lirian's gate had been destroyed. Why would she not check in on her old buddy to talk about it?

At the time of the flashback panel she was talking to Sunny, a child-like being. If Sunny didn't know at that point that Dorukon was dead, what effect would that have had? Perhaps Sunny would have taken it well, or perhaps she would have had a full tantrum right there and went floating off to attack the lich who killed Pop. Why not get her away from the dangerous lich first?

I think Serini knew. That was why she was there: to see what was going on. Opportunism and kindness lead her to recruit the monsters she could before they became minions of Xykon, or dead. Even if that meant telling a lie to a child for her own good.

[Robots]

That's the part my question was about. What source do we have to support the idea that Serini didn't know Dorukon had died?

Well, I think people can infer she didn't know he was dead because she speaks about him in the present tense. "We need to recruit more monsters before Dorukan finds out we're snooping as usual in his dungeon." Also it's not spelled Dorukon.

[danielxcutter]

I mean, if she knew Dorukan was dead and Xykon was near she’d probably be freaking out a bit? Also as mentioned earlier the man’s own employees didn’t know he was dead for a while.

[Ionathus]

Concrete evidence that Soon was the only one who gave half a deep-fried tanar’ri turd about the oath, in letter as well as in spirit.

Really it does seem even more likely that it was just an excuse to kick him out of the party. At least, Serini herself might not have intended that but that’s essentially how it turned out.

Yeesh.

Yeah, I'm sure we'll hear a bit more about Soon's shortcomings in future scenes, but I'm pretty annoyed that even the woman who proposed the "go our separate ways" plan violated it.

I know these were flawed, traumatized people, but it sucks that they all deliberately weakened their defenses by compartmentalizing each gate, and the only one who took that separation seriously is the one who takes the most scorn and criticism from the rest of the party.

To paraphrase Roy: what the hell happened to these people?

its absolutely fascinating to see a view of the early chapters with the newer artstyle, though I wonder if it would be funny for if in the flashback for the dungeon and gang be depicted with the old artstyle, while sunny and serini in the new style x)

I believe rich has said it causes him emotional pain to go back to the old art style in those few moments he needs to. Having read some of my own writing from 10 years ago, I know how embarrassing reviewing your own past work can be!

[bunsen_h]

I mean, if she knew Dorukan was dead and Xykon was near she’d probably be freaking out a bit? Also as mentioned earlier the man’s own employees didn’t know he was dead for a while.

If she knew Xykon was around the place, I can't imagine she'd have gone anywhere near it. She has other resources for getting monsters than nicking Dorukan's, and she wouldn't have risked not only her own life but Sunny's.

EDIT:

I believe rich has said it causes him emotional pain to go back to the old art style in those few moments he needs to. Having read some of my own writing from 10 years ago, I know how embarrassing reviewing your own past work can be!

Sometimes I feel the same way. But a couple of times, I've encountered some bit of writing on-line that I've particularly liked, as it perfectly tweaked my sense of humour or approached a problem in an especially elegant way. And when I looked into it more deeply, discovered that I'd written it myself a decade or two earlier, and had utterly forgotten about.