OOTS #1270 - The Discussion Thread

[alceryes]

So the problem with that and why you don't really find it popular in games is the "what happens at the edges" question. With Portal-like portals or the effect we see in the comic here, that's a non-issue - the edges are always on some form of surface so it doesn't matter. With RAW Teleportation circle, it also doesn't matter - if any part of you touches the surface inside the circle, you're teleported.

With the standing coin portal, what happens if you try to place your palm up to the edge from the outside and move it forward? Or from the inside? What happens if you're passing through the portal and part of you happens to graze against the edge? Without the entirety of the edging being on a surface, this becomes ugly immediately, and games which are usually designed for ease of play typically completely ignore this can of worms by simply having the edging always be on surface. As does the effect we see in the comic.

As far as RAW goes, I don't see how this would be an issue.
You touch any part of it (even the edge) you're teleported, instantaneously.

How it was portrayed in OOTS(?), yeah, that may be an issue. Assuming that the portal is somehow made to fit the exact dimentions of the passageway (imperfections and all) solves some of the issue, but sticking your hand/head in as shown? That's not right.

[arimareiji]

The first point is fairly strong. The only rebuttal I can think of is that she had already used up a first batch doing it repeatedly and is brewing a second batch for the paladins and the Order, but this has some holes in it - most notably that if she was done with the paladins, she could have already made 'em forget and cut them loose. Unless she wanted to do all the people at once.

The second point, however, is very weak. Just because she's not doing them at that point doesn't mean she didn't do it before.

I think I may have a stronger rebuttal: This assumes she's telling paladins the unvarnished truth, under conditions where doing so would be detrimental to her plans.

[gerryq]

I'm glad the Giant got a break but I do hope that the plot can start moving again soon.

That said, this was a cute callback and Sunny continues to be adorable.

Edited: let a little too much frustration leak though.

My theory is that Rich is sitting in front of a big whiteboard, with scribbled scraps of paper all over the floor, trying to get all his ducks in a row for the final showdown.

[brian 333]

How the swapovers perform is simple:

There are two magical planes joined so that there is no intervening space between them. Call them Side A and Side B. From Side A one can see into the space beyond B and walk through because there is no intervening space. One does not teleport. One cannot lose a limb by sticking it through any more than sticking the limb through a curtain.

As one enters Side A a status marker is employed which triggers Side B to reciprocate: otherwise Side B is inert. Passing through Side B without having passed through Side A results in nothing happening. One cannot see or step into Side A if one has not stepped through from there. To observers from Side B, there is no gate, portal, or whatever. The only ones who can see and step into the doorway in Monster Hollow are those who went through Side A. And they cannot see what is beyond that point on Side B.

The Order did not get to Side B. They got to the back side of Side A. When Xykon spoke his sound reached Roy, but when Roy ranted, his sound only reached the end of the tunnel. Roy's sword and his head only went to the space he could have seen if there had been no portal at all.

Simple, right?

[Metastachydium]

5trying to get all his ducks in a row

Duckies are nice!

[Liquor Box]

I think I may have a stronger rebuttal: This assumes she's telling paladins the unvarnished truth, under conditions where doing so would be detrimental to her plans.

Not really. The point relies simply on her appearing to just be finishing brewing her potion, not on anything she says at all.

What she said about not needing a cauldron for the two of them is an answer to the possible rebuttal to the suggestion that she had previously brewed the potion for the paladins and was now brewing a second batch. I do assume she's telling the truth there because she had no reason to talk about the potion at all at that point - the paladins hadn't asked her about it, not saying anything would not have been detrimental. She just volunteered the comment. So you could assume she was lying, but then it would be reasonable to assume she is lying about any part of her narrative.

Like I said to Peelee, there are rebuttals to my point, and I'm not ruling out the possibility of multiple cycles of questioning/memory wipes, even though I find it doubtful. But I think the rebuttal Peelee got to (that perhaps the potion expires quickly and she made several small dosages previously) remains stronger than your "she was just lying when she didn't need to" rebuttal.

[Ruck]

I was baffled. "PLOT^TM" would have been pretty clear; "PWOT^TM" not so much.

I was pretty sure I got it (I did), but the combination of all-caps, the misspelling, and the trademark does make it seem like it's supposed to be an acronym for something else.

[gbaji]

Where do we get that they'd been asleep for two days when they woke up?

I get it from this strip. V states that their ETA is two days. The paladins wake up here (ok, technically we first see them in the last panel of the previous strip). This is after the order has arrived, after they've scouted the ledge, after Durkon attempted to talk to Redcloak, after the Order fled into one of the tunnels, after they found and disabled the swapover, and while they are standing there waiting to ambush team evil.

So yeah. Two days. So either they slept for the entire two days, or they woke up sometime during that two days. And if they did wake up, they should remember it, unless they were fed amnesia potion to forget that. And if she erased their memories such that they didn't remember waking up previously, why wouldn't she have questioned them as well? And if she did, then she would reasonably know all of the things she knew in this conversation without needing anything else.

One logically follows from the other.

In any case, if you are looking for a explanation for why they slept for two days, I can think of two which are simpler that they'd previously been woken up and then given amnesia potion to go back to sleep. The first is that she kept redosing them with sleeping poison until the amnesia potion was ready to keep them docile. The second is simply that the sleeping poison lasted two days.

Sure. Could be. But it's not like she just stumbled upon the paladins here. They were there for quite some time (weeks?), watching team evil. She picked that time to attack them. So, if she had the ability to make amnesia potion, and seemingly had all the time in the world to make it, and picked the time when she chose to capture the paladins, why do it before the amnesia potion was ready to use?

Serini picked the time to capture them. Her stated reason for attacking them is to dose them with amnesia potion and drop them off somewhere else. Doesn't it make far more sense that she did this, took the time to question them a bit (knowing they would remember nothing of it), and *then* discovered that the order is on their way (she could have overheard Lien telling O'Chul this too), so she redosed them (maybe a few times, so she could pump them for info on the order), while making a bigger batch of amnesia potion for them and the order?

That makes absolute complete sense. The idea that she'd arbitrarily capture the paladins 2 days before the amnesia potion she planned to use on them was ready, and then keep dosing them with sleep potions for two days seems strange. Why not just wait two more days to capture them if she wasn't ready?

This may be a silly point for me to delurk for, but I feel I should point out the sleep poison was strong enough to get through Paladin saving throws + O-Chul's ridiculous Con score. So either it *was* amazingly strong stuff or she got a really lucky roll.

I'm not super familiar with the intricacies of potion rules in D&D, but from a quick scan on google, it seems most sleep potions last like 1 minute (presumably intended for use in combat). I'd certainly speculate the ability to make ones with longer durations (an hour or two maybe?). But two days? That seems extreme.

Obviously, there's no way to say for absolute certain how this all went down, but it just seems as though in order for the "dosed repeatedly with amnesia potion and questioned" scenario to work, we just have to assume she could make amnesia potion (which we know she can, unless she was lying about that all along), and merely assume that her sleep poison didn't just knock them out for two full days. In order for the "they slept two full days and that was the first time they talked to her" scenario to work, we have to assume the sleep poison lasts that long (so just as reasonable as assuming it doesn't, I suppose, knowing nothing to the contrary), but then also have to come up with a number of other possibilities for how she knows the things she knows about the paladins, the order, their actions regarding the gates, O'Chul's specific actions regarding his own weapon being used to destroy one of the gates, etc.

Again, assuming we're equally on the fence in terms of the sleep poison duration, then one of those scenarios explains every single thing with no need to add anything other than what's right there shown to the readers to be in Serini's possession. The other requires extrapolating any number of other things, some of which are extremely difficult to nearly insanely impossible for her to have done.

I'm going with the far simpler explanation until some significant evidence in a strip shows otherwise.

[Liquor Box]

I get it from this strip. V states that their ETA is two days. The paladins wake up here (ok, technically we first see them in the last panel of the previous strip). This is after the order has arrived, after they've scouted the ledge, after Durkon attempted to talk to Redcloak, after the Order fled into one of the tunnels, after they found and disabled the swapover, and while they are standing there waiting to ambush team evil.

Gotcha, thanks

Sure. Could be. But it's not like she just stumbled upon the paladins here. They were there for quite some time (weeks?), watching team evil. She picked that time to attack them. So, if she had the ability to make amnesia potion, and seemingly had all the time in the world to make it, and picked the time when she chose to capture the paladins, why do it before the amnesia potion was ready to use?

Serini picked the time to capture them. Her stated reason for attacking them is to dose them with amnesia potion and drop them off somewhere else. Doesn't it make far more sense that she did this, took the time to question them a bit (knowing they would remember nothing of it), and *then* discovered that the order is on their way (she could have overheard Lien telling O'Chul this too), so she redosed them (maybe a few times, so she could pump them for info on the order), while making a bigger batch of amnesia potion for them and the order?

That makes absolute complete sense. The idea that she'd arbitrarily capture the paladins 2 days before the amnesia potion she planned to use on them was ready, and then keep dosing them with sleep potions for two days seems strange. Why not just wait two more days to capture them if she wasn't ready?

Her reason for capturing them, as implied by what she said, was that they might destroy the gate to keep it from Xykon. Dosing them with amnesia potion was just her solution to that problem. If that was indeed her reason for capturing them, I think it makes more sense for her to capture them as soon as she located to stop them carrying out any such plan straight away - or at least as soon as she was ready too (she may have had to brew the sleeping potion).

In order for the "they slept two full days and that was the first time they talked to her" scenario to work, we have to assume the sleep poison lasts that long (so just as reasonable as assuming it doesn't, I suppose, knowing nothing to the contrary),

Again, assuming we're equally on the fence in terms of the sleep poison duration, then one of those scenarios explains every single thing with no need to add anything other than what's right there shown to the readers to be in Serini's possession. The other requires extrapolating any number of other things, some of which are extremely difficult to nearly insanely impossible for her to have done.

I'm going with the far simpler explanation until some significant evidence in a strip shows otherwise.

You profess here to go with the simpler explanation, but the simpler explanation by far is that the sleeping potion lasts two days.

You say that the two possibilities are equally likely, but they are not on the face of what we have seen in the comic. We see they are given the sleeping poison and then apparently waking up for the first time two days later. Sure you can come up with a complicated explanation for those involving repeated doses of both sleeping poison and amnesia potion, but why postulate such a complicated theory when a sleeping poison that lasts two days explain what happened so much more simply.

I'm not sure you are wrong, but I'd only give your theory 1 chance in 5 of being right.

[arimareiji]

Her comment about not brewing a whole cauldren just for them suggests that they had not already polished off a cauldren prior.

I think I may have a stronger rebuttal: This assumes she's telling paladins the unvarnished truth, under conditions where doing so would be detrimental to her plans.

Not really. The point relies simply on her appearing to just be finishing brewing her potion, not on anything she says at all.

1) You yourself already clarified that her words suggest they hadn't already been dosed with it, which I appreciate.

2) I should have been clearer with my definition of "unvarnished truth", or more aptly its opposite, since not everyone shares it. To me, a "lie" is a deliberate attempt to make someone believe that which the "liar" believes to be untrue - whether it's by overt word or deed, omission thereof, insinuating it, or anything else.

At the very least, suggesting X when the suggester believes (or worse, has solid reason to know) X to be false is less than the unvarnished truth... at least in my book, though not everyone is reading from it.

[Liquor Box]

1) You yourself already clarified that her words suggest they hadn't already been dosed with it, which I appreciate.

True, but the primary point, which Peelee had addressed in his rebuttal was the preceding one:

First, it seemed that she was still finishing the brewing of the potion in 1225 when the paladins first woke up

What her words go to is the obvious counter-point that she may have already brewed a cauldron.

2) I should have been clearer with my definition of "unvarnished truth", or more aptly its opposite, since not everyone shares it. To me, a "lie" is a deliberate attempt to make someone believe that which the "liar" believes to be untrue - whether it's by overt word or deed, omission thereof, insinuating it, or anything else.

At the very least, suggesting X when the suggester believes (or worse, has solid reason to know) X to be false is less than the unvarnished truth... at least in my book, though not everyone is reading from it.

Sure, I don't quibble with that definition.

But her words in 1229 were is response to Lien saying that Serini imprisoning the paladins wouldn't end things. The unvarnished truth seems to have been that Serini knew others were present and had plans to deal with them too (because that is what she tried to do). Whether she chose to reveal this or not, she needn't have said anything about why she might have brewed a whole cauldron of amnesia potion. What is the unvarnished truth you think her statement might have departed from?

[gbaji]

Her reason for capturing them, as implied by what she said, was that they might destroy the gate to keep it from Xykon. Dosing them with amnesia potion was just her solution to that problem. If that was indeed her reason for capturing them, I think it makes more sense for her to capture them as soon as she located to stop them carrying out any such plan straight away - or at least as soon as she was ready too (she may have had to brew the sleeping potion).

You're assuming it took her that long to locate them and/or that she waited to brew the sleep poison but for some reason didn't wait to finish brewing the amnesia potion that she knew she would need? They were sitting there for how long (my count is 4-5 days)? dunno. They weren't going anywhere, and showed no signs of taking any direct action by themselves against Xykon any time soon. Why rush?

You profess here to go with the simpler explanation, but the simpler explanation by far is that the sleeping potion lasts two days.

If the only effect of the two options is just whether she dosed them with sleeping poison to knock them out for two days, or dosed them with sleeping poison to capture them, then repeatedly woke them up questioned them and dosed them with amnesia potion, then yes, assuming the sleeping potion is the simpler one.

But that's not all that's involved. We also have to account for all of the statements she made about the paladins and the order and their actions. Those statements cannot be explained if the two paladins were asleep for the full two days and she didn't question them. Thus, for the "simple" explanation to be true (sleep potion lasted two full days) we must add some additional explanation(s) for her knowledge (especially O'Chul's connection to the destruction of Soon's gate). This requires significant and much more complex assumptions like she had some form of epic scrying on the throne room in Azure city (which Xykon could not scry into due to blocking magic), or that she had some way to overhear the conversation on the island where V teleported the fleet (and later MiTD sent them to), or some other possibly even more contrived way to do this. And actually, those other's almost don't count because she knew not only that his personal weapon was used to destroy Soon's gate (which could have been overheard, maybe, somehow), but also that he intended to do it himself as well (which there is zero way for anyone other than O'Chul, Xykon, Redcloack, and perhaps Miko to know. Are we suggesting she talked to them? Or maybe questioned the spirits of the Ghost Martyrs maybe?

The only possible alternative way she could have known this is if she was somehow physically present in the throne room at the time. Which would require a remarkable amount of "perfect timing", and her choosing to be in such close proximity to someone she's abjectly terrified of, and do nothing while there except... watch? Why? And to be perfectly honest, if she had been there and watching (I raised this earlier), given that Redcloak and Xykon were within a hairs breath of being destroyed by Soon's ghost, why on earth didn't she backstab Miko? The one thing she is willing to take action on is prevent the destruction of the gates, yet she does nothing to prevent just that? We can only conclude that she wasn't there. And if she wasn't, then she could not have known what happened there unless she got that information from one of the people who was.

Which again, leads us back to the most obvious explanation: O'Chul told her. He's one of the short list of people who would know, and he's been her prisoner for two days. So then we ask "How could she have questioned him without him knowing?", and we're literally told the answer: "She's got amnesia potion". Duh.

You say that the two possibilities are equally likely, but they are not on the face of what we have seen in the comic. We see they are given the sleeping poison and then apparently waking up for the first time two days later. Sure you can come up with a complicated explanation for those involving repeated doses of both sleeping poison and amnesia potion, but why postulate such a complicated theory when a sleeping poison that lasts two days explain what happened so much more simply.

I said "equally likely" purely in the context of none of us knowing the particulars about the sleeping potion she used. So it could just as easily be something that lasts for an hour or two, or a couple days.

I'm also not sure why it's "complicated" to assume that something we already know she has could have been used in such a way. It only requires that we *not* assume the sleep poison lasted two full days. What's much more complicated is how we explain all the knowledge Serini has without her having questioned the paladins in the method I describe. How do we explain that she knows about O'Chul's actions in the Azure city gate room? How do we explain her knowing that it was the Order who destroyed Girard's gate? Heck. How did she know Roy's last name?

I'm not sure you are wrong, but I'd only give your theory 1 chance in 5 of being right.

I'm hesitant to place any odds on predictions on this comic. But I still will put it in the "best explanation based on what we have seen so far" category.

[drDunkel]

Serini’s been around snooping for monsters for a good while, right? She’s been with Sunny for how long? My impression from this strip is that she and Sunny’s been together doing these “raids” for some while, as Serini has to (again) tell Sunny that the other people are just adventurers, as if that was some familiar occurrence.

[bunsen_h]

Serini’s been around snooping for monsters for a good while, right? She’s been with Sunny for how long? My impression from this strip is that she and Sunny’s been together doing these “raids” for some while, as Serini has to (again) tell Sunny that the other people are just adventurers, as if that was some familiar occurrence.

Sunny is familiar enough with the concept of "random adventurers" that they're not a surprise to him, but unfamiliar enough to not want to dismiss them out of hand -- Sunny is nice enough (capital-G Good enough?) to want to go out of his way to help them without knowing much about what they might need. I don't have a strong impression about how long Serini and Sunny have been out recruiting.

[dave_smith354]

I was baffled. "PLOT^TM" would have been pretty clear; "PWOT^TM" not so much.

This may be a cultural thing. If you grew up in the UK this would be an obvious reference to the way little children (ikkle chiwdwen) speak, for other variants of English there are different ways of sounding twee. If English isn't your first language then it wouldn't be obvious at all.

Besides, as mentioned above, "this is a thing now, we're doing this".

[Peelee]

This may be a cultural thing. If you grew up in the UK this would be an obvious reference to the way little children (ikkle chiwdwen) speak, for other variants of English there are different ways of sounding twee. If English isn't your first language then it wouldn't be obvious at all.

Besides, as mentioned above, "this is a thing now, we're doing this".

Nah, that's also how people over here use to emulate kiddy speak. But nothing else in the post was done like that, and it was all caps, and it was made to look trademarked, so all of those made it seem, ya know, not that.

[Fyraltari]

Nah, that's also how people over here use to emulate kiddy speak. But nothing else in the post was done like that, and it was all caps, and it was made to look trademarked, so all of those made it seem, ya know, not that.

Trademarking isn't part of the U.S.'s baby-speak?
I expected more of your corporate culture.

[Ruck]

Trademarking isn't part of the U.S.'s baby-speak?
I expected more of your corporate culture.

You're thinking of Boss Baby-speak.

[snowblizz]

Trademarking isn't part of the U.S.'s baby-speak?
I expected more of your corporate culture.

It's probably stuck in litigation.

[gbaji]

This may be a cultural thing. If you grew up in the UK this would be an obvious reference to the way little children (ikkle chiwdwen) speak, for other variants of English there are different ways of sounding twee. If English isn't your first language then it wouldn't be obvious at all.

Personally, all I heard (to be fair, once it was explained) was:

Wewease... Wodderwick!

[arimareiji]

Personally, all I heard (to be fair, once it was explained) was:

Wewease... Wodderwick!

But he's a wobbah!

[bunsen_h]

But he's a wobbah!

They're called "wogues" now.

[F.Harr]

Well, it's too bad she couldn't get to Trigack before it was too late. Those lawyers are responsible for quite a bit.

[arimareiji]

They're called "wogues" now.

Hm. Now I wonder if the "clueless" woman in the scene who adds "and a pickpocket!" was a first-edition player. (^_~)

(If memory serves, both the descriptive text and the "titles" by level emphasized this role.)

[bunsen_h]

Hm. Now I wonder if the "clueless" woman in the scene who adds "and a pickpocket!" was a first-edition player. (^_~)

I'm strongly tempted to make a religious joke here, but it would almost certainly fall afoul of forum rules.

(If memory serves, both the descriptive text and the "titles" by level emphasized this role.)

A first-level Thief was referred to as a "Rogue (Apprentice)". Fourth-level were "Robbers". "Pickpocket" wasn't one of the "titles".

[hamishspence]

A first-level Thief was referred to as a "Rogue (Apprentice)". Fourth-level were "Robbers". "Pickpocket" wasn't one of the "titles".

True - but I recall the skill that is now called Sleight of Hand, was called Pick Pockets prior to 3e.

[bunsen_h]

True - but I recall the skill that is now called Sleight of Hand, was called Pick Pockets prior to 3e.

It was referred to as picking pockets in 1e. I didn't know it had been changed.

[arimareiji]

A first-level Thief was referred to as a "Rogue (Apprentice)". Fourth-level were "Robbers". "Pickpocket" wasn't one of the "titles".

I mostly had in mind the general emphasis placed in gameplay at the time (for example, it's the top skill listed under a thief's "primary functions") -- but the unique titles associated with picking pockets (cutpurse is virtually a synonym; footpad and filcher are associated but not synonymous) are as or more common than any of the other things commonly associated with "thieves" in contemporary fantasy/-esque stories*. (Lock picking = burglar/robber, mugging = robber/footpad, swindling = sharper/magsman.)

* - Ymmv, but personally I think it's a fair assertion that picking pockets was probably the primary plot device associated with "thieves" in those stories circulating at the time... which had been the fertile ground in which 1st edition and the dungeons written for it sprouted.

[brian 333]

The titles at each level were for roleplaying purposes. It was a way to say, "My character is a level 5 thief," while remaining in character. The titles did not unlock special powers, nor did they dictate any roles. They were pure flavor.

[arimareiji]

The titles at each level were for roleplaying purposes. It was a way to say, "My character is a level 5 thief," while remaining in character. The titles did not unlock special powers, nor did they dictate any roles. They were pure flavor.

Thank you for stating that for the benefit of anyone who didn't know. I mostly found them amusing, even back then.