Penalties for feats?

[ReluctantReaper]

I think I have heard some places that you can take like a mental penalty or fear or something and get another feat? I dont have a PhB on me right now, so can anyone tell me more of what this is, I am slightly interested. Thanks

[Mr.Moron]

You're probably thinking about flaws. A variety of drawbacks you can take to receive a feat in exchange.

[ReluctantReaper]

yup thats it

[Idea Man]

Dragon magazine put out a bunch more flaws, tailored to the various classes and races, but not neccesarily exlusive to them. As long as you quilified for the flaw, you could take it.

One nice one allowed you to drop your familiar summoning feature. Now, really, is that a flaw?

[OneWinged4ngel]

One nice one allowed you to drop your familiar summoning feature. Now, really, is that a flaw?

Pretty much. Familiars are potentially fantastic, depending on how you use 'em.

It's certainly more substantial than the BS they give us like "Shaky."

[Miles Invictus]

Thing is, though, unless you're going to make extensive use of those fantastic familiar abilities, you're better off sacrificing it to get another feat. The penalty from Shaky is a lot harder to get around; all an enemy has to do is remain outside of melee range, and you're at a significant disadvantage.

[AlterForm]

Dragon magazine put out a bunch more flaws, tailored to the various classes and races, but not neccesarily exlusive to them. As long as you quilified for the flaw, you could take it.

One nice one allowed you to drop your familiar summoning feature. Now, really, is that a flaw?

It most certainly is! I mean, if you took away a wizard's familiar, you'd have to give him, like, full BAB and free metamagic and armored casting and weapon profs and tons of free actions and a ton of flavor to make up for it! Making him really really really really really really really fast and calling him a "lightning warrior" or something might do it... [/sarcasm]

[The_Snark]

Thing is, though, unless you're going to make extensive use of those fantastic familiar abilities, you're better off sacrificing it to get another feat. The penalty from Shaky is a lot harder to get around; all an enemy has to do is remain outside of melee range, and you're at a significant disadvantage.

Unless you have targeted and areas spells, in which case you'll never need to make a ranged attack in your life. Except rays, if you choose to use them, and really... -2 on occasional touch attacks won't hurt you very much.

[Roderick_BR]

Dragon magazine put out a bunch more flaws, tailored to the various classes and races, but not neccesarily exlusive to them. As long as you quilified for the flaw, you could take it.

One nice one allowed you to drop your familiar summoning feature. Now, really, is that a flaw?

You can gain a feat for doing that? Great!

It most certainly is! I mean, if you took away a wizard's familiar, you'd have to give him, like, full BAB and free metamagic and armored casting and weapon profs and tons of free actions and a ton of flavor to make up for it! Making him really really really really really really really fast and calling him a "lightning warrior" Warmage or something might do it... [/sarcasm]

Fixed

[AlterForm]

Ehh...I think you just failed a Knowledge(Wizards Forums) check.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

One nice one allowed you to drop your familiar summoning feature. Now, really, is that a flaw?

Yes.

Not because familiars are any good, but because the alternate class features you can trade for them are. Abrupt Jaunt, anyone?

[Jack_Simth]

Familiars can be very useful, but it depends on several things.

1) Familiars have the skills of the animal they once were - which means that Hawk familiar has the best Spot check in the party at level 1. That bat probably has the best Listen check, and it knows if anything comes within it's blindsense range (20 feet). That Rat is probably the best level-1 scout in the game. Anything with Scent (such as a snake) knows if something is within 60/30/15 feet, depending on the wind. In and of itself, these can be a lifesaver - although primarily at low levels.
2) Familiars have the same skill ranks as their master. This means they can Aid Another for a +2 bonus on basically any skill check, or give an extra try on things that are normally no retry (e.g., Knoweledge checks - you can't retry them, but your familiar can have a separate roll).
3) Familiars get their own actions. They're not very good at using them for much by default, but if you take a lot of Use Magic Device and a familiar that can speak (Raven) they can zap away with wands - which is an extra spell off every round, that stacks with Quicken. Branch out of Core, and you can get Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability - which means your familiar can help you spell dump even faster.

[Craig1f]

Unless you have targeted and areas spells, in which case you'll never need to make a ranged attack in your life. Except rays, if you choose to use them, and really... -2 on occasional touch attacks won't hurt you very much.

Using your familiar for targeted spells is a great way to get him killed. They're tiny creatures, so the target of a touch spell that the familiar delivers gets an AoO.

[AstralFire]

Meh. Far as I'm concerned, Hexblade was the first base class to handle Familiars/Animal Companions/Special Mounts particularly well.

Psions and Psicrystals too, I guess, though they're a totally different usage.

[Kaelik]

Using your familiar for targeted spells is a great way to get him killed. They're tiny creatures, so the target of a touch spell that the familiar delivers gets an AoO.

Targeted spells. As in Dispel Magic, Magic Missile, ect. Not touch attack spells. He was saying that Shaky isn't as big a flaw as losing your amazing familiar, the one that can cast spells UMD items, and perform all the same skill checks as you.

[bugsysservant]

Making no familiar a flaw is a bad idea. The premise of flaws is that they are worse than feats. You take a greater penalty than a feat could grant in reverse, but you get to choose the area where you want it. Now there is a feat "acquire familiar" meaning that at low levels (where familiars are pretty useless anyway) you can trade a feat you will use, like extend spell. At high levels, where a good familiar comes into its own, you just buy it back. This is even worse with retraining rules, but I'm not getting into that (actually, come to think of it, can you retrain flaws?)

Of course I'm really tempted to use this flaw, than go arcane heirophant just to see if my DM will let me still boost my animal companion.