Are the evil afterlives actually punishments?

[ZhonLord]

So, we know that each alignment has a dedicated afterlife. Celestial Realm is the only one we've directly seen in comic, but the others have been referenced multiple times. The IFCC directors even have "inboxes"!

Now the fiends and other outsiders are always trying to tip the cosmic balance in favor of evil. So presumably they'd want to encourage evil and cruel acts. One of the things that scares people away from such is the fear of the Big Hellfire Below. The afterlife of torment.

So, wouldn't it make sense for the evil afterlives to be actually something an evil aligned character would enjoy instead? A reward, just as the good and neutral races have their own rewards. Wouldn't some evil souls like Kilkil thoroughly enjoy working under someone like Director Lee? Sure there'd be backstabbing and cruelty and callousness, but they're all used to that from doing it themselves.

So how much of a punishment, or reward, would the Evil afterlives of OOTS actually turn out to be?

[Peelee]

Yes. They are punishments.

Because I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

[Metastachydium]

So, we know that each alignment has a dedicated afterlife. Celestial Realm is the only one we've directly seen in comic

Technically, we've seen Hel's domain as well and it had souls in it – enslaved, essentially. Granted, she could more than afford that.

Wouldn't some evil souls like Kilkil

Kilkil is canonically Lawful Neutral. Just saying.

[ZhonLord]

Yes. They are punishments.

......whelp, that answers that. Guess I need to read deeper into Giant Interviews next time.

[Peelee]

......whelp, that answers that. Guess I need to read deeper into Giant Interviews next time.

I figured someone would link it eventually so I just went ahead and got it out of the way. But generally, that's probably going to be the case in any setting where one can actually just go and hop on over to the afterlife while still alive to see what it's all about. Plane Shift, for example, is a standard spell on the Cleric spell list. Now sure, the average Joe ain't gonna be scoping out the Abyss for themselves because their friend on MaceBook advocated "do your own research!", but enough high level characters would have adventure in such places and returned to tell the tales that the majority of the world will probably have a pretty good understanding of how it all works. "Probably" being a key word there, but still.

[Metastachydium]

But generally, that's probably going to be the case in any setting where one can actually just go and hop on over to the afterlife while still alive to see what it's all about. Plane Shift, for example, is a standard spell on the Cleric spell list. Now sure, the average Joe ain't gonna be scoping out the Abyss for themselves because their friend on MaceBook advocated "do your own research!", but enough high level characters would have adventure in such places and returned to tell the tales that the majority of the world will probably have a pretty good understanding of how it all works. "Probably" being a key word there, but still.

Given that it's apparently easier to enter Celestia if one's buddies with an Evil cleric than it is for Good folks, I tend to agree.

[hamishspence]

Xykon's "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Down Below" comments to V, do suggest he's quite aware of the hazards of the afterlife, for evil beings.

[Fyraltari]

So, we know that each alignment has a dedicated afterlife. Celestial Realm is the only one we've directly seen in comic, but the others have been referenced multiple times. The IFCC directors even have "inboxes"!

Now the fiends and other outsiders are always trying to tip the cosmic balance in favor of evil. So presumably they'd want to encourage evil and cruel acts. One of the things that scares people away from such is the fear of the Big Hellfire Below. The afterlife of torment.

So, wouldn't it make sense for the evil afterlives to be actually something an evil aligned character would enjoy instead? A reward, just as the good and neutral races have their own rewards. Wouldn't some evil souls like Kilkil thoroughly enjoy working under someone like Director Lee? Sure there'd be backstabbing and cruelty and callousness, but they're all used to that from doing it themselves.

So how much of a punishment, or reward, would the Evil afterlives of OOTS actually turn out to be?

There's an old short story, I like: "In Hell, everyone sits at great big table, with the most delicious looking food in their plates. However everyone's cutlery is tied to their hands and so long they can't reach into their mouth, but could reach into their neighbours'. In Heaven, it's the exact same. In Hell everybody is terribly hungry, in heaven everyone eats to their hearts' content."

The fiends can't make their afterlives actually pleasant, that's antithetical to their nature as utter bastards, and if they tried to make it tolerable, their "customers" would ruin it anyway.

As for why it's not a detriment to getting new souls, think of it like a Ponzi scheme. Each and everyone of the people sent there either thought like Xykon that they were going to be the one in a million who would find a way to escape it forever
or be the one in a million who would get to be the top dog. They're wrong. But they didn't do whatever they did that got them sent there without thinking they could escape the consequences of their action in the first place.

Edit:

Given that it's apparently easier to enter Celestia if one's buddies with an Evil cleric than it is for Good folks, I tend to agree.

It seems much harder to stay for a significant among of time, though.

[Rockphed]

Given that it's apparently easier to enter Celestia if one's buddies with an Evil cleric than it is for Good folks, I tend to agree.

The only lawful good person who we have seen have problems enter Celestia is Eugene. Considering that he is mostly stuck in the waiting room because the people who run Celestia are, in effect, holding him to his own standards, I don't think we have enough information on how hard it is to get into Celestia.

[Peelee]

The only lawful good person who we have seen have problems enter Celestia is Eugene. Considering that he is mostly stuck in the waiting room because the people who run Celestia are, in effect, holding him to his own standards, I don't think we have enough information on how hard it is to get into Celestia.

We've seen at least two people unable to enter Celestia, at least for a time, and Roy got a good grilling and was at one point in danger of losing both Lawful and Good afterlives.

[Metastachydium]

It seems much harder to stay for a significant among of time, though.

Heh. Too true!

The only lawful good person who we have seen have problems enter Celestia is Eugene. Considering that he is mostly stuck in the waiting room because the people who run Celestia are, in effect, holding him to his own standards, I don't think we have enough information on how hard it is to get into Celestia.

We've seen at least two people unable to enter Celestia, at least for a time, and Roy got a good grilling and was at one point in danger of losing both Lawful and Good afterlives.

There's also a queue and an annoyingly big mountain which those running the place think is a feature. Be Evil! Use Plane Shift!

[Fyraltari]

Heh. Too true!





There's also a queue and an annoyingly big mountain which those running the place think is a feature. Be Evil! Use Plane Shift!

I'll take the mountain over the sword in the face, myself.

[Metastachydium]

I'll take the mountain over the sword in the face, myself.

Fair again, but I'm pretty sure most locals didn't die married to their swords!

[Peelee]

There's also.... an annoyingly big mountain which those running the place think is a feature[/URL].

Imean, let's be fair here, if Mount Celestia was not entirely composed of mountain, I would be a bit confused on the name.

[Fyraltari]

Fair again, but I'm pretty sure most locals didn't die married to their swords!

I don't get it.

Imean, let's be fair here, if Mount Celestia was not entirely composed of mountain, I would be a bit confused on the name.

Would you find a giant horse an acceptable substitute?

[Peelee]

I don't get it.

Roy and Eugene had a sword to fight against the adventurers because they saw it as an extension of themselves. Sarah, for example, did not have any weapons and could have died (or something?) without them.

[Fyraltari]

Roy and Eugene had a sword to fight against the adventurers because they saw it as an extension of themselves. Sarah, for example, did not have any weapons and could have died (or something?) without them.

Sure, but Mount Celestia is full of devas, many of which porbably have way bigger swords wreathed in Holy Flames^TM and everyone being so casual about the whole affair makes me believe that the permanent damage is very one-sided when that happens.

[Metastachydium]

Would you find a giant horse an acceptable substitute?

A herbivore?

Sure, but Mount Celestia is full of devas, many of which porbably have way bigger swords wreathed in Holy Flames^TM

Well, yes, um, but, um, only three of the five main types of devas carry greatswords and only the movanics' are actually on fire; astrals and monadics prefer maces.

and everyone being so casual about the whole affair makes me believe that the permanent damage is very one-sided when that happens.

Technically, only Horace was certifiably casual about it (it's hard to tell with lantern archons, you know), but yeah.

[Fyraltari]

A herbivore?

Look, I'm sure D&D has carnivorous mounts somewhere, we can make it work!

[Peelee]

A herbivore?

What if they can survive entirely on mushrooms?

[Ruck]

The only lawful good person who we have seen have problems enter Celestia is Eugene.

I can't miss an opportunity when one presents itself to express my belief that Eugene is not actually Lawful Good at all.

[Millstone85]

I can't miss an opportunity when one presents itself to express my belief that Eugene is not actually Lawful Good at all.

I can see him being told "Okay, your family oath is fulfilled. NOW we are reviewing your alignment."

[Ruck]

I can see him being told "Okay, your family oath is fulfilled. NOW we are reviewing your alignment."

Yeah, I think some folks tend to read the final scene of Start of Darkness as Eugene being approved but I think it's more likely the review stopped at that point.

Or, at least, my rationale is that it did, because I don't possibly see how anyone who so consistently acts self-centered and dismissive of his responsibilities to other people every time we see him on the page, alive or dead, could be considered Lawful Good.

[WanderingMist]

Yeah, I think some folks tend to read the final scene of Start of Darkness as Eugene being approved but I think it's more likely the review stopped at that point.

Or, at least, my rationale is that it did, because I don't possibly see how anyone who so consistently acts self-centered and dismissive of his responsibilities to other people every time we see him on the page, alive or dead, could be considered Lawful Good.

Julia's True Neutral and according to Roy, she's basically just a young, female Eugene. I believe Eugene believes he's Lawful Good, though, because he didn't do explicitly Evil things.

[brian 333]

Getting killed would result in the destruction of the soul. Which would shortcut the usual process by a few eons. Win-win!

[Peelee]

Yeah, I think some folks tend to read the final scene of Start of Darkness as Eugene being approved but I think it's more likely the review stopped at that point.

Or, at least, my rationale is that it did, because I don't possibly see how anyone who so consistently acts self-centered and dismissive of his responsibilities to other people every time we see him on the page, alive or dead, could be considered Lawful Good.

It totally reads as if it stopped at that point, but when Roy was being judged they went ahead and did the full thing anyway because why not. And that throws a wrench in the gears of the "isnta-stop" argument (which I also subscribe to, for what the record).

[dancrilis]

Yes. They are punishments.

I disagree, sure you might be tortured into a puddle of lawful evil as a direct result of living your life in a lawful and evil way but nobody is doing it to punish you not the devils or the gods or the plane itself etc, it is merely the natural order of things.

Seperately the domain of The Dark One (at least as presented) didn't seem to go the whole punishment angle either.

The evil afterlives aren't out to punish anyone, it is just that that are ran by powerful entities who happen to be evil and so unless you have befriended one of them you are likely going to have a bad time when you got there - if whoever runs the one you end up in does happen to like you (for whatever reason) then you might be largely fine (except perhaps for all the other evil people around you who now have specific cause to resent you and who want to see you suffer solely due to such patronage).

[Ruck]

Julia's True Neutral and according to Roy, she's basically just a young, female Eugene. I believe Eugene believes he's Lawful Good, though, because he didn't do explicitly Evil things.

Yeah, I think these are both good points. I also think if Eugene was genuinely Lawful or Good, that the Giant would have shown him acting that way at some point. Even in his wizardry and adventuring days he seemed more concerned with praise and recognition, feeding his own ego, than with helping others or acting altruistically.

It totally reads as if it stopped at that point, but when Roy was being judged they went ahead and did the full thing anyway because why not. And that throws a wrench in the gears of the "isnta-stop" argument (which I also subscribe to, for what the record).

The oath wasn't a problem for Roy in the end, though. He just assumed it would be. Maybe that's why his never stopped-- the Deva just didn't correct him on that point until the very end.

I disagree

Well, the author of the story disagrees with you.

[Peelee]

I disagree, sure you might be tortured into a puddle of lawful evil as a direct result of living your life in a lawful and evil way but nobody is doing it to punish you not the devils or the gods or the plane itself etc, it is merely the natural order of things.

A distinction without a difference.

[Keltest]

A distinction without a difference.

Disagree. A punishment is made as a specific reaction to something you did. It may be a punishment in a vaguely karmic sense, but they arent actually doing anything about your deeds and you may not even have actually done anything besides being grouchy and jealous of people.