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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Apr 2020

    Default Re: Great Weapon Master Math

    Maybe its the tables I play at, but at the end of tier2 I rarely see a party that isn’t boosting the attack stat in some way. Usually its some sort of reliable advantage generation (Faerie fire/proning etc), or bless, or boosts like peace cleric or items.

    All of these things massively favor GWM over a simple str boost. Moreover as others have pointed out, the average dpr increase in some sense misses the point b/c you are really fighting against a distribution of ACs and you don’t always power attack if you can guesstimate an enemies ac.

    Played optimally, GWM will thus be a significant damage boost over an ASI integrated over the course of an adventuring day..

    The only reason to take an ASI if your primary is a heavy weapon is if you are going for more of a control playstyle with grappling.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Great Weapon Master Math

    So, the math I did tells you at what to-hit number you need for using GWM to outdamage +2 str. If the foe has less AC, you do less damage than you would with +2 str.

    There is a lower AC that makes it worthwhile, given that you have GWM, to do -5/+10, but at that AC you would still be better off having +2 str instead.

    The AC required without advantage is quite low. Bless moves the AC by 2.5, but that still results in a quite low AC for it to matter.

    In many games I have played, the more important fights often have foes with higher AC; so this also makes +2 strength better.

    However, what dominates all of this is do you like crunching the numbers and optimizing for -5/+10? If you do, then go for it; even if sub-optimal, the math can be fun. If you do not, don't bother, +2 strength is a very solid choice.

    Exceptions:

    Monte Haul: Out of scope gear, like +3 gear at level 1, or weapons that deal 10d6 damage, completely change the above math. Also, Belts of Giant strength make +2 strength useless.

    Archery: If magical arrows are common enough that you can reliably use them, and you have +2 archery style, between the two of them the accuracy boost can be big enough to make -5/+10 almost always worth it. Stacking that with a hand crossbows need for longer than 30' short range and SS becomes tempting.

    Advantage: Advantage is big enough of an accuracy swing that it turns -5/+10 into a no-brainer on most foes. So on a Barbarian who always reckless attacks or similar, -5/+10 can be almost always better than +2 strength.

    ----

    But how big can it get?

    Suppose you have a 60% chance to hit and have advantage, so 75% hit rate 10% crit rate. You are doing 8.3 dice damage and +5 static.

    GWM drops hit chance to 35% raw or 57% with advantage, so 14.1 damage per swing.
    +2 strength does 13.4 damage per swing.

    You aren't giving up a huge amount you'll notice.

    An extreme case would be 80% base chance to hit and has advantage. So 98% hit chance with +2 str, and 80% with GWM -5/+10.

    +2 str does 14.8 damage per swing, while -5/+10 does 19.47, a 30% edge.

    That is the kind of "extreme" situation where GWM is a no brainer; but it only really happens when you are very accurate and have advantage on top of it.

    Barring that kind of situation, the -5/+10s big "advantage" is having fun doing the math and determining if you should use it. If you do the math right, you get up to +2 damage per swing.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Sep 2015
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    Maine
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    Male

    Default Re: Great Weapon Master Math

    Quote Originally Posted by Mud Puppy View Post
    I took Crusher at 4th level for background...
    Where is your Con sitting? Seeing how it effects your rune DC and the number of times you can use Runic shield it's a side bar to the str vs GWM question but should be considered.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2020

    Default Re: Great Weapon Master Math

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    Do you have any example of how it changed? Like, comparable CR monsters/NPCs where the difference between newer and older stuff is obvious?
    Sorry for not responding earlier. Didn't see this.

    Without getting into too much detail for spoilers, check out the Balder's Gate (early levels) portion of Descent into Avernus. Many of the baddies in there have ACs far beyond what's expected for their CR. They tend to have some other abilities too that look good, but the ACs really stand out. My sense when I DMed it was that it was a deliberate attempt to balance some of the power creep on the PC side.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Great Weapon Master Math

    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    All of these things massively favor GWM over a simple str boost. Moreover as others have pointed out, the average dpr increase in some sense misses the point b/c you are really fighting against a distribution of ACs and you don’t always power attack if you can guesstimate an enemies ac.
    Agreed, and the enemy AC needs to be quite high for it not to be worth using. Typically AC 16 without any sort of bonus involved at all in Tier 1. And that rapidly goes up if you have any sort of hit bonus, on a 1 for 1 scale.

    Conversely if you find something like a Flame Tongue it drops on a 1 for 2 for added damage.

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