High Level Support?

[MagneticDragon]

How does one play a Support character at high to epic levels?

At low to mid levels, it's rather easy to play a support-focused character. You could be a Bard, using Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness to buff up your allies. You could throw down spells like Bless, Magic Weapon, Magic Fang for animal companions and Haste to boost the entire party. It's not that difficult to do, and it can be a quite effective way to act as a force multiplier for your group.

However, as the levels increase, and the numbers keep scaling upwards. I become more and more uncertain about what options are available, and how one can take a support build to the next level?

Inspire Courage optimization is all well and good but is that all a Bard can do? Is Inspire Excellence worth picking up, or is it not an epic feat looking into? Are there powerful high-level buff spells that I have not been aware of, or are buffing spells mostly focused around lower-level spells? Is there feats and prestige classes that allow me to empower and magnify the buffs I am giving out? As I genuinely don't know what options are available for support characters to make them more effective at support.

And what about the action economy? I've heard that increasing the action economy is one of the strongest possible options and that spellcasters have plenty of options to do so through spells such as Time Stop, Clerity and Arcane Fusion. But what about giving my allies extra actions, is there any spells or abilities that allow me to boost their action economy at all?

Sorry if this is a bit of a newbie question, but while reading handbooks and the like has helped me become comfortable with mid-levels and selfish high-level options. I'm rather uncertain about what support abilities are unlocked at higher levels of the game, and I would be deeply grateful for some help in figuring out what to build.

[Gruftzwerg]

I have to ask to what extend you wanna optimize here. At higher lvls there are many options and some may be gamebreaking.
Are you looking for a more normal "buffer" who just casts buffing spells or are we free for any kind of support build?

If it is the first, you should first set on a full caster with access to good buff spells and maybe even get some cross class spells via Wyrm Wizard or Recaster (e.g. Wu-jen have "Giant Size" and "Body outside Body" as great support spells).

If it is the latter, there are some options but there we are getting into high lvl optimization (not character lvl, the optimization lvl!). Thus the question at which optimization/cheese level do you play (or is this just a thought lesson?).
E.g. my B.O.R.G Queen build abuses the Symbiotic template to share her mental stats and all abilities (of all participating individuals) to anyone who joins her "collective". You could link all your party members and share some special qualities across for a mere +1LA template.
Or on a equal gamebreaking lvl, you could optimize the "White Raven Tactics" maneuver that you could spam it every round to give an ally a 2nd turn in that round.

So, can you maybe more precise with your request?

[MagneticDragon]

Giant Size and Body outside of Body are both personal only spells. How am I meant to be a good support using spells like that?

And I fail to see how I can be more precise with my requests. I want to know what non-standard options they are for playing a support character at high levels, what high-level buffing spells there are, and is something like Inspire Excellence would be worthwhile.

But to answer your question about the cheese levels? Let's keep the cheesiness down quite low. This Borg-Queen build of yours seems very cheesy to me, so it is not what I am looking for.

White Raven Tactics meanwhile, is simply strong, not cheesy, and I am aware of its existence. It's an option I am considering for sure.

[Gruftzwerg]

Giant Size and Body outside of Body are both personal only spells. How am I meant to be a good support using spells like that?

And I fail to see how I can be more precise with my requests. I want to know what non-standard options they are for playing a support character at high levels, what high-level buffing spells there are, and is something like Inspire Excellence would be worthwhile.

But to answer your question about the cheese levels? Let's keep the cheesiness down quite low. This Borg-Queen build of yours seems very cheesy to me, so it is not what I am looking for.

White Raven Tactics meanwhile, is simply strong, not cheesy, and I am aware of its existence. It's an option I am considering for sure.

So you wanna keep the cheese at a low to mid level (no symbiont cheese, but white raven tactics is ok. that is a point to start from).

Regarding "personal spell" on others. There are some options. E.g. Craft Contingent Spell. Takes preparation time and is expensive, but these are meant serve as panic buttons and are not intended for the every day use. But there are other options IIRC (maybe someone else can else can add options here)


I'm a bit short on time atm. Maybe I'll add more suggestions later when I have more time.

[MagneticDragon]

No rush, I'm more than happy to wait a few days and learn what options there are for high-level/high-powered (but non-cheesy) support characters.

[Gruftzwerg]

Other options to use personal spells on others:

Divine:
Inscribe Rune feat, and if you like that, the Runecaster prc.

Arcane:
Be a necropolitain (template that turns you undead) monk1/full caster X/warshaper 1 and cast Polymorph any Object on yourself to permanently (+9 duration) turn into a "Ghostly Visage". Due to the Polymorph rules, you get the type (and thus the traits) and Special Attacks.

The "Meld" attack lets you join another creatures body as symbiont. And via the "Share Spell" symbiont trait you can now share any spell that you cast on yourself. To cast spells you first need to grow your monk's unarmed strike as "Morphic Weapon". Now you are ready to cast any spell and can share it with your host creature. Note that all ability DCs scale with your HD. DC = 10 + 1/2 HD + attribute modifier of the skill (in the case of the Ghostly Visage CHA).
This allows you to even Meld into enemies and try to wrestle for control if you want.


____

I still think I'm missing out on options here... Anyone else who can jump in and help us out here?

[Biggus]

Inspire Courage optimization is all well and good but is that all a Bard can do? Is Inspire Excellence worth picking up, or is it not an epic feat looking into? Are there powerful high-level buff spells that I have not been aware of, or are buffing spells mostly focused around lower-level spells? Is there feats and prestige classes that allow me to empower and magnify the buffs I am giving out? As I genuinely don't know what options are available for support characters to make them more effective at support.

Inspire Excellence can certainly be useful: +4 Con that stacks with pretty much everything would be the default as it's useful to everybody, but in some parties others might be better (I made an epic party once with a Paladin, Cleric, Bard and Sorcerer which optimized Cha for everyone for example).

Also, it specifically notes "this feat is treated as a bardic music inspiration ability for purposes of feats that affect such abilities" so most ways to optimize it should work. You'd have to check with your DM about Words of Creation though, by RAW it doesn't work (based on the wording of WoC) but I strongly suspect RAI is that it does (based on the wording of IE).

The epic feat Epic Inspiration can improve the bonuses of all your inspiration abilities, but it got nerfed hard in 3.5: it can be taken multiple times and stacked though.

Some good high-level buffs which can be cast on others include Brilliant Blade/Aura (SpC), Fortunate Fate (SpC), Mass Spell Resistance (SpC), Greater Spell Immunity, Investiture of the Pit Fiend (FCII, evil only), Energy Immunity (SpC), Mind Blank, Superior Invisibility (SpC), Foresight, Aura of Vitality (SpC), Superior Resistance (SpC) and Greater Anticipate Teleportation (SpC). At high levels, the 10 minute per level ones (Fortunate Fate, Greater Spell Immunity and Foresight) last 6+ hours when Extended.

And what about the action economy? I've heard that increasing the action economy is one of the strongest possible options and that spellcasters have plenty of options to do so through spells such as Time Stop, Clerity and Arcane Fusion. But what about giving my allies extra actions, is there any spells or abilities that allow me to boost their action economy at all?

Sakkratar's Triple Strike (LEoF) is a 5th-level S/W spell which gives multiple allies two extra melee attacks, AFAIK the only spell in the whole of 3.5 which does so, and also gives their weapons the keen and flaming burst properties. It only lasts for one round, but at high levels it can be Extended and/or Quickened.

Giant Size and Body outside of Body are both personal only spells. How am I meant to be a good support using spells like that?

There are some ways to cast personal-only spells on others, have a look here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ells-on-Others

With these, Greater Visage of the Deity (SpC), Shapechange, Holy/Infernal Transformation (SpC) and Stormrage (SpC) all become good options, in addition to those already mentioned.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about getting some better spells and more bardic music types to buff with? A couple of levels in sublime chord followed by virtuoso? Get your higher level wizard buff spells going, then slam down with all the bardic music you can.

[MagneticDragon]

Well, thank you very much for the feedback, I will have to look into the spells that have been shown to me and consider how useful they are, and how much investment it would take into being a good support at this level and what other options I might have if I do invest into being a support.

I will admit, I had been considering a Bardblade build so that I have strong support abilities though Inspire Courage and White Raven Tactics, but now that I have all these other options and considerations. I will most certainly have to do my research carefully.

Thank you very much for the feedback, especially you Biggus. But, any more advice and suggestions would still be appreciated, in case anyone sees this thread/post and has a few more ideas.

[lylsyly]

I've had a lot of succes with Bard 7 / War Weaver 2 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / War Weaver +3 / Virtuoso +5.
Made be hard on skill requirements and feats to an extent but the ability to have multiple buffs ready to trigger and share them with the entire party is really good. ToB is a hard ban at our table so I can't really speak to Whit Raven Tactics.

[Rebel7284]

Here is a nice support character I theorycrafted. Comments have other alternatives, including ones with less flaws.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e-Legend-Maker

I agree that Craft Contingent Spell is one of the best ways to add actions to your allies.

[Biggus]

Well, thank you very much for the feedback, I will have to look into the spells that have been shown to me and consider how useful they are, and how much investment it would take into being a good support at this level and what other options I might have if I do invest into being a support.

It's certainly worth it: in the campaign I'm currently DMing, there's a 20th-level Bard who's optimized buffing and she makes a HUGE difference to the team, and she doesn't even have Words of Creation or any Prestige Classes. With classes like Sublime Chord, War Weaver and/or Spellguard of Silverymoon she could be a whole lot better. The feats Melodic Casting (CM), Song of the Heart (ECS) and Lingering Song (CAdv) make her music very effective; combined with the spells Inspirational Boost (SpC) and Harmonize (RoS) she can start a powerful new Bardic Music each round and cast two spells if one of them is a swift action.

Some high-level Bard buffs not mentioned yet include Snowsong (FB), Renewed Vigor (PHB2) and Inner Beauty (FCI, good only). Greater Blink (SpC) is also very good if you can get personal spells onto other characters. Sublime Chord gets you access to all the high-level S/W buffs.

The other main option for a buffer is Cleric: most of the high-level spells I mentioned in my previous post are on the Cleric list. Persistent Spell can get Elation (BoED), Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC), Recitation (SpC), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC), Bear's Heart (DotF) and Blessing of the Righteous (PHB2) all day for the whole party, and again if you can get personal spells onto others there are a whole bunch more. DMM: Persist and all the usual metamagic reduction techniques can help with the +6 spell slot cost, although in an epic game that's not so much of a problem anyway (and you can take Improved Metamagic). Also, Miracle can be used to emulate the relatively few good buffs that a Cleric doesn't have access to, such as Aura of Vitality.

Of course, the ultimate source of buffs for an epic character is Epic Spellcasting, but that's very much dependent on what your DM will let you do with it (if they allow it at all).

Edit: Renewed Vigor can arguably be Persisted, you'd need to ask your DM about that one though.

[MagneticDragon]

Okay, after looking at the spells and what they do, I have to admit, I am somewhat disappointed. A lot of the spells that have been recommended to me come across as mainly just, ways to increase numbers, or can be dealt with by other means? From what I can see, the only spells that truly stand out to me are Fortunate Fate, Spell Resistance/Immunity and Foresight. Most of the other spells mentioned seem to be ways to simply increase the stats that you have. Buffing saves, or ability scores, or maybe just a flat attack and damage bonus instead.

As it is, however, there is still plenty of interesting spells, and the suggestion of using DMM to Persist aura spells for 24 hour buffs is an option that I do enjoy. Especially as my build was already going to be making use of Turn Undead anyway. So I much appreciate the option for sure. Plus, Nood, the Legend Maker introduces me to Heartfire Fanner and Focused Performance allows me to take my previous bard builds to the next level. Something I am undoubtedly going to take advantage of.

Thank you for the feedback, and I am curious... is Psionics any good at buffing? I've noticed that no one has brought it up, it's only been spells and WRT.

[Rebel7284]

Thank you for the feedback, and I am curious... is Psionics any good at buffing? I've noticed that no one has brought it up, it's only been spells and WRT.

Psionics is good at self-buffing, but mediocre at best at buffing the party.

[Anthrowhale]

Trickerster Spellthief 9/Spelldancer 1/<your choice 10>

Pick up persistent spell and extend spell.

Every day you steal magic jar from the wizard, then possess members of the party one by one. While possessing a party member, you steal whatever personal spells desired from other party members and cast them on your possessed body. These spells can be replaced for the day using pearls of power, and then the process can repeat with the next party member, until everyone has all the personal buffs from all available spell lists that they can afford the pearls of power or spell slots for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics is good at self-buffing, but mediocre at best at buffing the party.

Any psionic manifester with access to a high level Convert-Spell-to-Power erudite and the psychic chirurgery power can get access to all psionic powers known, all arcane spells converted to psionic powers known, and there are ways to convert any divine spell to arcane spells, which can then be converted to psionic powers.

So with enough optimization, manifesters are the BEST buffers.

[Thunder999]

IF you want to be a bard you'll need Music of The Gods as the whole party are probably immune to mind affecting abilities at this point.
You probably want to go Sublime Chord so you have 9ths (both for their inherent power and to access all the Epic Feats with 9th level spells as a prereq)

[MagneticDragon]

The problem with Music of the Gods (as well as Epic Inspiration and Inspire Excellence) is that they require 30 Ranks in Perform to be able to take.

That asks for level 27. tHat's quite high, even for an Epic game.

[Anthrowhale]

Empyreal Ecstasy is persistable and provides immunity to mind-affecting while explicitly allowing previous mind-affecting to continue to apply.

[Biggus]

Okay, after looking at the spells and what they do, I have to admit, I am somewhat disappointed. A lot of the spells that have been recommended to me come across as mainly just, ways to increase numbers, or can be dealt with by other means? From what I can see, the only spells that truly stand out to me are Fortunate Fate, Spell Resistance/Immunity and Foresight. Most of the other spells mentioned seem to be ways to simply increase the stats that you have. Buffing saves, or ability scores, or maybe just a flat attack and damage bonus instead.

Some people are never satisfied

Seriously though, yes a lot of the spells I mentioned are "just" ways to increase existing abilities, but the important thing about many of them is that they stack with other spells and each other. Elation and Aura of Vitality don't stack with each other but do stack with all other spells, and Snowsong, Inner Beauty*, Renewed Vigor, Greater Visage of the Deity and Holy*/Infernal Transformation all stack with everything. Likewise Inspire Excellence also stacks with all of them.

*minor exceptions: the Paladin spells Righteous Aura and Righteous Fury (both SpC) don't stack with the Cha bonus from Inner Beauty and the Str bonus from Holy Transformation respectively

As for whole new abilities, Miracle can do basically anything (without costing XP) as long as it doesn't exceed the power level of an 8th-level spell. Was there anything in particular you were looking for?

Oh yes, a few other high-level group buffs I forgot about: Mass Invisibility, Mass Death Ward (SpC), Empyreal Ecstasy (BoED).

PS: if Dragon Compendium material is available, the feat Ability Enhancer is excellent for a buffer. It increases the bonuses of all transmutation spells which give bonuses to ability scores by 2, which includes the Bull's Strength line, Righteous Might, Divine Agility (SpC), Renewed Vigor, Inner Beauty, Holy/Infernal Transformation, Greater Visage of the Deity and Aura of Vitality. It can add up to as much as an additional +12 to an ability score.

[King of Nowhere]

i created a very successful high level npc support caster as wizard/war weaver/initiate of the sevenfold veil
war weaver lets you share single target buffs among allies. you can basically cast most buffs as a mass version.

unfortunately the class caps at 5th level spells, though there is a trick to lower a spell level for a few spells (it was a feat that causes a spell to count as one level higher in certain conditions, but one level lower in all other conditions) that I used to also include greater heroism among the stuff to be shared.
greater heroism being +4 to hit and saving throws, it's pretty big to be able to cast it on all your team, and refresh it after a dispel.
another thing you can do is store a bunch of buffs that you can cast as a move action. again, great if you are surprised and can't buff before a fight, or if your normal buffs are dispelled.

initiate of the sevenfold veil lets you raise partial prismatic walls as immediate actions. which means basically you can negate any one action anyone around you can take.

this character was so effective, the first time the party fought him I ended up apologizing for accidentally making a too strong character. mostly for the prismatic walls spam. the buffs were also very strong, but the party has a strong debuff component, so they were able to handle those.


expanding from that, I envisioned a similar concept of war weaver/mystic theurge. Nothing in the war weaver descrption says you can only share arcane buffs, so with that combo you can cast mass buffs as both wizard and cleric. say hello to mass spell resistance. using the same level reducing trick, cast mass heal as a 6th level spell.
the major downside with that build is that it takes forever to shine, having to wait 9th level before you can start sharing spells - and only first level ones - and fully hitting stride only at level 19. plus, you give up on 9th level spells

[MagneticDragon]

Some people are never satisfied

Seriously though, yes a lot of the spells I mentioned are "just" ways to increase existing abilities, but the important thing about many of them is that they stack with other spells and each other. Elation and Aura of Vitality don't stack with each other but do stack with all other spells, and Snowsong, Inner Beauty*, Renewed Vigor, Greater Visage of the Deity and Holy*/Infernal Transformation all stack with everything. Likewise Inspire Excellence also stacks with all of them.

That is true, but there is also the problem of investment. Aura of Vitality for example, is a 7th Level Druid Spell, meaning I need to have a way to cast 7th level Druid spells to be able to make use of it. Snowsong is a 6th Level Bard Spell, Inner Beauty a 4th Level Bard Spell, Holy Transformation is a 7th level cleric spell and Visage of the Deity, Greater is a 9th level Cleric Spell.

Getting access to these spells, even just some of them, is a considerable investment. Some of them, like Elation, Inner Beauty and Mass Lesser Vigor for example, seem entirely worth the investment to get, thanks to being middle-level spells when all is said and done. But getting a spell like Visage of the Deity, Greater, when I can focus on bardic music instead, for a similar, if not higher amount of bonus attack & damage? Or perhaps an increase to HD with Inspire Greatness or Saves with Inspire Heroics? It's not an easy ask.

... Admittedly. Hearthfine Fanner being allowed as a Prestige class that gives any caster 5-9 (maybe 6-10?) levels worth of Bardic Music for the cost of 2/3 feats and a few skill points does make that investment far far easier to bear. But it's still a little disappointing that these high-levels spells don't really wow me, no matter how stackable they might be.

Hmmm, War Weaver is quite a strong option, I will admit. You can't put Personal Spells into the Eldritch Tapestry sadly. Though with the link shared previously, it might be able to get around that. Not to mention it allows you to use lower-level spell slots for mass casting, instead of having to depend on the Mass Spells themselves either. And taking a single spell and making it a mass spell can lead to a significant increase in spell level.

Spell Resistance goes from 5 to 7, for a 2-level increase. But Heal goes from a 6th-level spell to a 9th-level spell for a 3-level increase, and Bull's Strength goes from a 2nd-level spell to a 6th level spell for an astonishing increase of 4 spell levels. That means a War Weaver will undoubtedly save on a considerable margin of spell slots if utilized in such a manner. I will have to consider it moving forwards.

... Although... I think I have a different angle for you. If I'm reading it right. The level of the spell you can cast into the Eldritch Tapestry is determined by the class level... and is it not uncommon for people to use LEgacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster to increase the levels of a prestige class? Normally I've seen it used with Hellfire Warlock in order to massively ramp up the amount of damage that you can do with an Eldrich's Blast. But it should be a viable option hear as well to raise the level of Eldritch Tapestry spells all the way up to level 9. It would also increase the Quiescent Weaving ability as well, which is nice.

[King of Nowhere]

... Although... I think I have a different angle for you. If I'm reading it right. The level of the spell you can cast into the Eldritch Tapestry is determined by the class level... and is it not uncommon for people to use LEgacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster to increase the levels of a prestige class? Normally I've seen it used with Hellfire Warlock in order to massively ramp up the amount of damage that you can do with an Eldrich's Blast. But it should be a viable option hear as well to raise the level of Eldritch Tapestry spells all the way up to level 9. It would also increase the Quiescent Weaving ability as well, which is nice.

yes, you can do that. i didn't mention it because that kind of tricks is generally frowned upon at my table. then again, i would definitely support houseruling a class to advance war weaver past level 5, possibly losing another caster level but getting to share spells up to level 9.
i also can't think of many high level wizard buffs that aren't personal, but i'm sure there must be. i'm also sure there's some metamagic feat somewhere to cast personal range spells on others.
those resources would greatly push up the power of the class; depends on the power level one wants to play; sharing shapechange with the whole party would be pretty big

[Rebel7284]

i'm also sure there's some metamagic feat somewhere to cast personal range spells on others.

Spellguard of Silverymoon is the only class that explicitly allows this as far as I know. With that said, there are some other methods.

1. Symbiont cheese/possession mentioned above.
2. Craft Contingent Spell
3. Shalantha's Delicate Disk
4. Possibly Skull Talisman

There are no metamagic feats in first party content that I know of.

As far as spell access, it's certainly the case that some of the best buff spells are sprinkled through the different spell lists. This is good design and means that casters are at least somewhat different from one another. With that said, at higher levels, throwing a limited wish onto a party member or two to get off-list buffs is core and is definitely intended and of course Miracle and (Greater) Anyspell give Clerics even more access to off-list spells.
Additionally, Archivists and Sha'ir have MUCH wider spell access if you would like that.
Finally, don't underestimate a little bit of UMD here or there to top up your buff stack.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Item creation allows allies to use self-only spells they don't have natively.

The soul crystal psionic power, from Magic of Incarnum, allows a manifester to create psionically-charged stones that allow others to use the powers embedded in them.

The spellsword weapon enhancement allows you to redirect the spell it's attuned to onto another target. Nothing is said about preventing targets that normally couldn't be...um...targeted.

The spell storing and power storing weapon enhancements allow a spell or power to be inserted, which can then be used by anyone wielding the affected weapon(s).

Hallow and unhallow cast whatever spell is attached to them onto anyone within their AoEs. Feel free to cast said AoE under an oak tree, and then cast acorn of far travel on it, to take those buffs wherever you go.

[MagneticDragon]

... Okay, the soul crystal power especially is darn badass and amazing, and something I wish I had known about before. Because, wow that is a fantastic way to pass around buffs. It's a level 7 power, so it's not cheap to use or to get access to. But Psionics has plenty of ways to get around the pesky power point per day limitation, and when you'er at that level, what does it matter?

Definitely aI need to remember for later.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Combine with quintessence to increase their shelf lives.

[Rebel7284]

On a side note, the best buffer in general is Artificer since they get access to all spells and get it early while also getting infusions that allow for sharing those spells. However, since crafting requires at least a little downtime and patience, it may be sub-optimal in some faster paced games.

edit: and before someone jumps in to argue that Dedicated Wright allows Artificer to continue adventuring, it certainly helps, but crafting still takes time, money, and GOOD planning to have the right items ready at the right time.

[MagneticDragon]

Artificers, right. Can you explain them a little more please, how they are potentially the best buffer?

I've given their handbooks a quick glance over, but more opinions and answers never hurt. Especially as the Artificer seems like an incredibly difficult and complex class to really do right compared to some of the other classes.

[Thunder999]

Artificer functionally has access to every spell list in the game, both via crafting scrolls and from Spell-Storing Item infusion, they also have ways to easily persist those buffs.