Tierlist for classes (lvl 1-10)

[Anthrowhale]

If you're worried about the casting time, cast color spray instead.

Colorspray only gives you the helpless state for up to 2HD opponents. Even at level 1 this is limiting.

Like silent image or fengut, both of which are going to be better for that use-case that heartache is.

A save-or-die denies an enemy actions forever. Silent Image and Fengut are not save-or-dies.

Yeah, but unlike the Rogue with their skill points, the Cleric wants to use those domain selections for stuff that isn't just "having skills".

Are you arguing that the cleric is lower tier or that it is higher tier?

In any case, Substitute Domain is often useful and only a second level spell.

[RandomPeasant]

using lesser planar binding to get Astral Projection off of a Nightmare to adventure without fear of death for higher tier options.

The Cleric can use lesser planar ally to get that same Nightmare two levels earlier.

Meanwhile, you can do some heavy optimization of a Truenamer and you'll still have a character you can reasonably play at a table.

This is just arguing that the Truenamer is lower tier than those things. Which, yes, I agree. If you can optimize more with a Truenamer than you can with a class-agnostic strategy, that's a reasonable argument that the Truenamer is lower tier than any class.

I'd call that battlefield control.

Is stun ray "battlefield control"? Is hold person? I'm not even disputing that the utterances you're talking about are valuable, but words have meanings and "battlefield control" doesn't mean "anything that stops someone from moving".

Getting Solid Fog at level 8, and being able to reliably Quicken it at level 9, is also pretty damn good and a pretty solid way to start a combat.

That I would absolutely count as BFC.

Speed of the Zephyr, Greater is a single-target haste. It has less range than Haste, only working on one person, but as I said, you get to use it more often, and you don't have to worry about not having third-level spell slots for other spells you need, especially at lower levels when you might only have two or three slots to use for the entire day.

You get to use it more often, but are you in enough fights for that to matter? And being multi-target is a big part of what makes haste good. Dropping it on one ally is often going to be worse than simply having another similar character would be. It's the ability to high a frontliner and a Rogue-type and some minions that makes haste a compelling option.

Temporal Spiral is better than Snake's Swiftness because you can combo this with Extend Utterance. Whether that actually works or not is more a question for a DM but I'd say it does, and means you get to trade one turn of yours for an ally getting two move actions over two turns.

temporal spiral isn't anything snake's swiftness, it grants a move action not an attack. I will grant you that it probably does work with Extend Utterance, but the thing that is actually like snake's swiftness is temporal twist is which has a duration of Instantaneous and is therefore ineligible for Extending.

That's why I said it wasn't going to happen and made an alternative suggestion that was more reasonable.

There is no version of "I get to use rebuild item to reuse magic items" that DMs are going to consider reasonable. And anything else it does is just deeply unexciting.

Colorspray only gives you the helpless state for up to 2HD opponents. Even at level 1 this is limiting.

It gives you stunned for multiple rounds for opponents up to 4 HD. Yes, you can't coup de grace them, but I don't really care, because 1d4+1 rounds of beating on them is going to be fine. That's not any more survivable at 1st level.

A save-or-die denies an enemy actions forever. Silent Image and Fengut are not save-or-dies.

You'll note that heartache doesn't do that. It gives your ally a one-round window to kill a specific enemy. Will there be situations where you can execute that combo? Sure. But there will be a lot more situations where it'll be better to take an enemy out of the fight for several rounds (fengut), or throw up something that your opponent has to waste an action on before they even get a save (silent image).

Are you arguing that the cleric is lower tier or that it is higher tier?

I am arguing that the Cleric faces a higher opportunity cost for being a skill monkey, and should therefore invest their scarce resources in doing something else instead.

In any case, Substitute Domain is often useful and only a second level spell.

And it only gives you domains from the same god. Remind me, does Mystra offer the Kobold domain?

[Anthrowhale]

... because 1d4+1 rounds of beating on them is going to be fine.

If there's only one opponent it seems ok to dump a lot of actions into defeating an opponent.

I am arguing that the Cleric faces a higher opportunity cost for being a skill monkey, and should therefore invest their scarce resources in doing something else instead.

I agree with this in general---no need to rain on someone else's parade.

We may not be disagreeing. I'd argue that clerics are _at_least_ T2. They can be built to function as a rogue, a fighter, a bard (dip & take a feat), a paladin (persist & take the ACF), or a wizard (arcane disciple variant). With access to Anyspell, Substitute Domain, out of core spells, and spontaneous domain casting they start seeming like a high T1 to me. It's not quite an Uncanny Forethought wizard, but they can overcome quite a large array of obstacles.

[RandomPeasant]

If there's only one opponent it seems ok to dump a lot of actions into defeating an opponent.

What if there are two opponents? "Take this guy out of the fight so we can kill his buddy" is a distinct use-case from "kill this one guy". heartache is marginally better at the latter than fengut, but massively worse at the former. heartache is not a bad spell. It will frequently be worth preparing and casting. But it is not some revolutionarily impressive 1st level spell.

I agree with this in general---no need to rain on someone else's parade.

That's not quite it. Raining on someone else's parade is fine (from the perspective of the cold-hearted optimizer, obviously there are social reasons not to do it). The issue is that if you're going to do that, you need to make sure you are getting more for your resource expenditure than they are for theirs. So the Cleric out-Fighter-ing the Fighter is good optimization, because spending part of a character's resources to replace a whole character nets you resources. But blowing your domain and/or god selection to try and do something the Beguiler or Artificer gets for free is not. Just play a Cleric of Mystra and use your resources to do something uniquely powerful.

[pabelfly]

This is just arguing that the Truenamer is lower tier than those things. Which, yes, I agree. If you can optimize more with a Truenamer than you can with a class-agnostic strategy, that's a reasonable argument that the Truenamer is lower tier than any class.

Your argument is based on the idea that Truenamer is lower-tier than Diplomancer (which is Tier 1) and Wizard (also Tier 1). Like, what is your point? There is literally no dispute there.

Is stun ray "battlefield control"? Is hold person? I'm not even disputing that the utterances you're talking about are valuable, but words have meanings and "battlefield control" doesn't mean "anything that stops someone from moving".

Both of those sound like battlefield control to me since you're controlling the positioning and movement of enemies.

You get to use it more often, but are you in enough fights for that to matter? And being multi-target is a big part of what makes haste good. Dropping it on one ally is often going to be worse than simply having another similar character would be. It's the ability to high a frontliner and a Rogue-type and some minions that makes haste a compelling option.

I think the comparison needs to be reframed a little.

Let's say we've got two characters at level 10, a Truenamer and a Wizard.

Let's say they both have an INT score of 26 (Base 20 + 2 from levels + 4 from a +4 item) so the Wizard has 5 level 4 spell slots and 3 level 5 spell slots. Assuming three combats a day, they can use roughly one level 4 and one level 5 spell slot per combat and have a few spare fourth-level spell slots in case of an emergency. And I want to be clear, this is much better than a Truenamer, not only for the Wizard's spell variety, but the spells they can use similar to Truenamer are more potent and likely have better range, duration, etc.

The same Elf as a Truenamer could have a Truespeak score of, let's say, 54 (13 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 8 INT + 10 Paragnostic Assembly + 10 Amulet of Silver Tongue, Greater + 10 Custom Ring of Truespeak). They need to hit a 37 to buff their allies and a 57 to Quicken their buffs on allies.

They have four third-level utterances - probably Seek the Sky, Speed of the Zephyr, Temporal Spiral, and something else that might specifically work for the party. They also have Fog From the Void and a few other good utterances from lower levels like Inertia Surge. The Truenamer can use all of their third-level utterances each combat without issue, and a few of those as Quickened Utterances at the start of the day. While Quickening will become less feasible throughout the day (except the equivalent of Solid Fog, they'll be able to spam that all day), they'll be able to use all of their third-level utterances every combat since Truenaming makes no differentiation between utterance levels for their LEM utterances, only how much they're used.

Again, Truenamer comes out worse than Wizard. But Truenamer given sufficient opportunity to optimize gets to spam all their favourite utterances all day, and that actually isn't too bad.

[Kurald Galain]

Both of those sound like battlefield control to me since you're controlling the positioning and movement of enemies.

I would argue that anything that only puts a status condition on enemies is a "debuff", and anything that puts a cloud or wall or other obstacle on the battlefield is "BFC".

[RandomPeasant]

Your argument is based on the idea that Truenamer is lower-tier than Diplomancer (which is Tier 1) and Wizard (also Tier 1). Like, what is your point? There is literally no dispute there.

My point is that if you are optimizing in the exact same way as a build that ends up better than you, it's sort of questionable what the point of what you're doing is. If you look at, like, a Barbarian-based Ubercharger build, it's equally worse than the Diplomancer. But you can't simply swap "Power Attack" to "Diplomacy Power Attack" in the same way you can all the skill-boosting the Truenamer wants.

As far as the Wizard comparison goes, it's true that the Truenamer being worse isn't decisive. But the Truenamer is really a lot worse. haste is far from the best 3rd level spell the Wizard gets, so getting much worse haste is really quite unimpressive. A Wizard that could prepare the Wizard versions of the utterances a Truenamer is likely to take is not T3.

The same Elf as a Truenamer could have a Truespeak score of, let's say, 54 (13 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 8 INT + 10 Paragnostic Assembly + 10 Amulet of Silver Tongue, Greater + 10 Custom Ring of Truespeak).

Why not throw in an Item Familiar there while you're at it, or a couple of other custom items for Profane and Luck bonuses?

something else that might specifically work for the party.

There are like eight utterances at each level. You do not have enough depth to pick something that "specifically works for the party".

Again, Truenamer comes out worse than Wizard. But Truenamer given sufficient opportunity to optimize gets to spam all their favourite utterances all day, and that actually isn't too bad.

They get to spam them through a standard adventuring day. But they're not like a Warlock, who genuinely gets to use their invocations "all day". The Truenamer can use a given utterance eight times before they have a chance of failure (and a few more times before it becomes truly unreliable). That's a lot of times. It's more than a Wizard is going to get to cast any given spell, even if they are a Focused Specialist or something. But it's still profoundly limited when you measure it against the amount of time there actually is in a day. "bad haste" would not be an invocation every Warlock would take, getting a version of it that you can't even use at will is not close to being compelling.

I would argue that anything that only puts a status condition on enemies is a "debuff", and anything that puts a cloud or wall or other obstacle on the battlefield is "BFC".

Yeah. I have never seen anyone argue it the other way prior to this.

[Quertus]

A Wizard that could prepare the Wizard versions of the utterances a Truenamer is likely to take is not T3.

For clarity, are you saying,

A Wizard that could only prepare the (better) Wizard versions of the utterances a Truenamer is likely to take is not even T3.

Now, let’s ignore “likely” for a moment, and ask “optimal”. And even use an UA Generic Spell Caster, to get non-Wizard spells (to match things like the healing utterances). (EDIT: or perhaps, for a better comparison, we should go “STP Erudite”, to parallel the number of times that the abilities can be used?)

What would this character look like, and what tier would you consider it?

[pabelfly]

My point is that if you are optimizing in the exact same way as a build that ends up better than you, it's sort of questionable what the point of what you're doing is.

1) Because it's fun. We're allowed to have fun here.
2) We've ended up with a character that's somewhere between T3 and T4, and could actually be playable at a table. No DM is going to allow a Diplomancer

If you look at, like, a Barbarian-based Ubercharger build, it's equally worse than the Diplomancer. But you can't simply swap "Power Attack" to "Diplomacy Power Attack" in the same way you can all the skill-boosting the Truenamer wants.

Barbarian - as long as we always fight on a flat plane against enemies on the ground with no obstructions and I get to charge at my enemy, I'll do a ****-load of damage each turn, but don't even try to slightly change the conditions about that. Oh, and definitely don't ask me to do anything outside of that, please.
Truenamer - my damage each round isn't great, but I can do all knowledge checks, buff, debuff, control enemy movement, and heal the party out of combat.

RandomPeasant - these are the exact same level of power.

Your previous arguments have been pretty reasonable but this doesn't even remotely make any sense.

As far as the Wizard comparison goes, it's true that the Truenamer being worse isn't decisive. But the Truenamer is really a lot worse. haste is far from the best 3rd level spell the Wizard gets, so getting much worse haste is really quite unimpressive. A Wizard that could prepare the Wizard versions of the utterances a Truenamer is likely to take is not T3.

I'd say if you heavily nerfed Wizard's spell selection and pretty much took away blasting, you'd have a support version of Warmage and definitely end up as a T3 character.

Why not throw in an Item Familiar there while you're at it, or a couple of other custom items for Profane and Luck bonuses?

Because if you lose your Item Familiar your character might as well commit suicide.
Because a custom Competence item's pricing is deliberately spelled out in the DMG and costs the exact same as the enhancement bonus of an Amulet of Silver Tongue but there isn't a pricing on "X luck/profane bonus for Truespeak"
Because every character has other stuff to get like armor bonuses, save bonuses, consumables, etc.

They get to spam them through a standard adventuring day. But they're not like a Warlock, who genuinely gets to use their invocations "all day". The Truenamer can use a given utterance eight times before they have a chance of failure (and a few more times before it becomes truly unreliable). That's a lot of times. It's more than a Wizard is going to get to cast any given spell, even if they are a Focused Specialist or something. But it's still profoundly limited when you measure it against the amount of time there actually is in a day. "bad haste" would not be an invocation every Warlock would take, getting a version of it that you can't even use at will is not close to being compelling.

But you don't need to use Haste/Slow all day, you only need to use it while fighting enemies. And in any set of circumstances where giving someone Haste for five rounds eight times a day isn't enough, a Wizard has long run out of spell slots, has been stuck using a crossbow and keeps trying to tell the party they need to find somewhere to rest and has been ignored the whole time.

The hypothetical situation you're trying to create here where the amount of uses is actually relevant somehow makes the Wizard look even worse than the Truenamer by comparison.

[sreservoir]

Truenamer at level 1 is only slightly better than Commoner since you have roughly a 25% to 40% chance of not being able to cast your one utterance the first time that day.

Just to be clear, the PH-expected 1st-level fighter has coinflip odds of beating face against himself. The incarnate's +2 dissolving spittle has a 35% of missing against 10 touch AC, and at these levels you're more likely to see higher than lower. The wizard sees similar failure rates on something like color spray, DC probably 14ish unless you're going hard on pushing it up. The truenamer isn't alone in this boat, and while the effect they get on success is ... underwhelming and not necessarily better than crossbow plinking, frankly "only slightly better than Commoner" isn't ... that bad? by 1st-level standards.

[RandomPeasant]

What would this character look like, and what tier would you consider it?

Imagine a Favored Soul who can pick buffs and debuffs (instead of Cleric spells). There are certainly ways to build that character that is T2, or even T1, but they don't really involve picking spells that look like what a Truenamer gets. At 8th level, you want to be casting polymorph, not single-target haste. I think you might scrape into low T3 as a faux-Truenamer if you assume you'll always have a party that synergizes well with your buffs, but getting past that seems dubious, and even there you're ahead of the Truenamer in obvious ways. Your haste hits your whole team. At the level where the Truenamer gets temporal twist, you get mass snake's swiftness. I don't think "buff bot without buffing synergies" is a very strong build, and the Truenamer both doesn't get the top tier of buffs and gets worse versions of the buffs they do get.

1) Because it's fun. We're allowed to have fun here.

You're certainly allowed to have fun. But the Tier System is not obligated to evaluate on the basis of "fun". And, indeed, it cannot, because fun is inherently subjective.

2) We've ended up with a character that's somewhere between T3 and T4, and could actually be playable at a table. No DM is going to allow a Diplomancer

What's the argument for disallowing the Diplomancer if you allowed the Truenamer? It seems to me that the only one is "it's more powerful", but making that argument is abandoning the notion of "comparable optimization" the tiers are supposed to be based on.

RandomPeasant - these are the exact same level of power.

Actually, no, the Barbarian is substantially more powerful because he can kill things in combat. Ending fights is what it's all about, and the Ubercharger does that in a way the Truenamer just can't. The Truenamer gets a bunch of cute utility, but "I can make my Knowledge check big a couple times per day" doesn't really rate compared to "if I hit them, they die". You can try to make the case that the Truenamer is a utility T4, but remember that the Adept is also T4 and that guy gets animate dead, polymorph, and raise dead. Those may come online late compared to the real casters, but I'd sure rather have them than +5 to skill checks.

I'd say if you heavily nerfed Wizard's spell selection and pretty much took away blasting, you'd have a support version of Warmage and definitely end up as a T3 character.

The Warmage is T3 because, in addition to all that blasting, they get at least one good BFC or SoL spell at most levels. Plus they get to add various spells to their lists in various ways (even with just Eclectic Learning, you can get alter self, magic circle, and planar binding). And their list is pretty long at each level, even if there's a lot of redundancy. A hypothetical character who gets haste and fly as 3rd levels spells is not measuring up to that, especially since they're reliant on having a party where those buffs have value. Not a lot of call for haste in the Warlock/DFA/Binder party.

Because a custom Competence item's pricing is deliberately spelled out in the DMG and costs the exact same as the enhancement bonus of an Amulet of Silver Tongue but there isn't a pricing on "X luck/profane bonus for Truespeak"

I do not think "you can have any custom item with a defined price formula" is a rule that holds up to scrutiny for characters who aren't Truenamers.

Because every character has other stuff to get like armor bonuses, save bonuses, consumables, etc.

Is the suggestion that the Truenamer is not buying a Cloak of Resistance? Because I have notes about that strategy and its implications for your long-term survival prospects.

But you don't need to use Haste/Slow all day, you only need to use it while fighting enemies.

Then why do I care that you get more uses than the Wizard does? "I can last slightly longer than the other guy without resting" is a much less compelling strength than "I can last however long is necessary without resting". The Truenamer has the former, not the latter.

[pabelfly]

Why not throw in an Item Familiar there while you're at it, or a couple of other custom items for Profane and Luck bonuses

Because every character has other stuff to get like armor bonuses, save bonuses, consumables, etc.

Is the suggestion that the Truenamer is not buying a Cloak of Resistance? Because I have notes about that strategy and its implications for your long-term survival prospects.

Okay then.

[RandomPeasant]

Okay then.

Baffled by the implications of this, but if you're willing to accept the Truenamer isn't all that good, I suppose I don't mind what you're choosing to cite for your concession.

[pabelfly]

Baffled by the implications of this, but if you're willing to accept the Truenamer isn't all that good, I suppose I don't mind what you're choosing to cite for your concession.

No point continuing this further if you're going to see the text I write and read the exact opposite of what's there. Goof luck with the imaginary argument you're having, hope you win.

[Lans]

What's the argument for disallowing the Diplomancer if you allowed the Truenamer? It seems to me that the only one is "it's more powerful", but making that argument is abandoning the notion of "comparable optimization" the tiers are supposed to be based on..

I don't think it is especially relevant if he is conceding that there is over 2 tiers difference between the two.

I do not think "you can have any custom item with a defined price formula" is a rule that holds up to scrutiny for characters who aren't Truenamers

. I agree with this, and custom items have more against them than dumpster diving or the like.

Is the suggestion that the Truenamer is not buying a Cloak of Resistance? Because I have notes about that strategy and its implications for your long-term survival prospects

I think you may have added an "other" in his Statement.
r
I like the idea of comparing to the Adept and similar classes.

[pabelfly]

I agree with this, and custom items have more against them than dumpster diving or the like.

I feel like a custom competence item has some justification to it. The Amulet of Silver Tongue exists with the same price formula, and instead of competence bonus gives an enhancement bonus, which are usually harder to come across.

But here's the maths of how things go without it:

Spoiler: Truespeak Check versus DC

Show

Level 5
Ranks – 8
Skill Focus – 3
INT 21 – 5
Amulet of Silver Tongue, Lesser – 5
Paragnostic Assembly – 5

Total (before roll) – 26
Truespeak DC – 25

Level 10
Ranks – 13
Skill Focus – 3
INT 26 (includes +4 item) – 7
Amulet of Silver Tongue, Greater – 10
Paragnostic Assembly – 10

Total (before roll) – 43
Truespeak DC – 35

Level 15
Ranks – 18
Skill Focus – 3
INT 29 (includes +6 item) – 9
Amulet of Silver Tongue, Greater – 10
Paragnostic Assembly – 10

Total (before roll) – 50
Truespeak DC – 40


Level 20
Ranks – 23
Skill Focus – 3
INT 30 (includes +6 item) – 10
Amulet of Silver Tongue, Greater – 10
Paragnostic Assembly – 10
Total (before roll) – 56
Truespeak DC – 45

You can do it without it, but Quickening most utterances (LEM utterances at least) is a coinflip at best unless you start investing in other (weaker and/or more expensive) Truespeak-boosting options.

I think you may have added an "other" in his Statement.

More like, they somehow interpreted the idea of wanting money to purchase stuff like a vest or cloak of resistance as not wanting to purchase a vest or cloak of resistance. I'm happy to argue on the internet but I at least want the person I'm debating with to not represent the complete opposite of my views while doing so.

[Gnaeus]

I feel like a custom competence item has some justification to it. The Amulet of Silver Tongue exists with the same price formula, and instead of competence bonus gives an enhancement bonus, which are usually harder to come across.

But here's the maths of how things go without it:

You can do it without it, but Quickening most utterances (LEM utterances at least) is a coinflip at best unless you start investing in other (weaker and/or more expensive) Truespeak-boosting options.

Kind of, but some of those options are kind of low hanging fruit. Like a wand of Heroism is very affordable at most levels and helps with truenaming and also other stuff. Or a Luckstone. Common group buffs like prayer or Good hope. And of course Universal Aptitude which you got at second level.

[pabelfly]

Kind of, but some of those options are kind of low hanging fruit. Like a wand of Heroism is very affordable at most levels and helps with truenaming and also other stuff. Or a Luckstone. Common group buffs like prayer or Good hope. And of course Universal Aptitude which you got at second level.

I had a think about wands, since Truenamers get UMD. Here's the spells I'd consider:
- Guidance of the Avatar last an hour/level and could make sure you get a +20 competence to a skill check. I'd use this long before battle starts, and you can even combine it with other spells on this list since its bonus is different to the others
- Polymorph and turn into a Loquasphinx to get a +4 racial bonus to Truespeak
- Improvisation gives you caster level x 2 in luck points you can use as you want, such as boosting a skill check. You'd trade a standard action to hopefully have enough luck points to get Quickened utterances in the next few rounds to make the trade worth it.

But if there's a complaint about the legality of a custom competence item, I feel like the same would be said if I started citing custom wands, since they come from the same ruleset.

[RandomPeasant]

I don't think it is especially relevant if he is conceding that there is over 2 tiers difference between the two.

But it's the same strategy. We don't have separate rankings for "Mailman Builds" and "Mailman Builds, but inexplicably you only use acid splash and therefore deal way less damage". I'm not saying you've got to discount the Truenamer entirely, but the thing where it is optimizing in a way that is structurally identical to, but inherently worse than, class-agnostic options is something that you can't just handwave with "well I admitted it's worse".

Consider a similar sort of problem: what if there were a class that was the Wizard, but better in some real but minor way. Like they get Full (or even Average) BAB instead of Poor. If that class exists, there is no reason to ever play a Wizard. You can make the case that you still have to put the Wizard in T1 for all the stuff it can do, but seeing "Wizard" and "Wizard, but better" in the same tier is going to be confusing.

I feel like a custom competence item has some justification to it.

There's no "some justification to it". Either we get to use the custom item rules or we don't. And in every other context people are able to recognize those rules as producing absolutely bonkers outcomes. It's like the point I was making with Item Familiar: no one else assumes you get access from whatever you want out of Unearthed Arcana's pile of optional rules. But for the Truenamer, of course they get the thing that juices their skills.

More like, they somehow interpreted the idea of wanting money to purchase stuff like a vest or cloak of resistance as not wanting to purchase a vest or cloak of resistance.

Money is finite. Most characters do not have enough of it to buy all the things they want at most levels. Your suggestion that the Truenamer is going to buy two +skill items necessarily implies they are giving something up relative to other, better, classes that do not have to do that to use their abilities. Together, the +10 amulet and +10 custom ring are over 40% of your character's wealth at 10th level. Do you think everyone else is gearing up just fine on a bit over half of what the game says you get?

Kind of, but some of those options are kind of low hanging fruit. Like a wand of Heroism is very affordable at most levels and helps with truenaming and also other stuff. Or a Luckstone. Common group buffs like prayer or Good hope. And of course Universal Aptitude which you got at second level.

A lot of those are really marginal bonuses though. Getting heroism, a Luckstone, prayer, and good hope all at once is a smaller bonus than the +10 ring (though, yes, substantially better overall -- though that's another question: how far down the tier list do you have to go to find a class that can't make better use of all that?). universal aptitude I'm sort of skeptical of as a solution to your problem. It's taking an action in combat, and it's subject to all the same usage restrictions as everything else you do. If you want to use Quickened universal aptitude to fire off utterances, you've lost your action economy advantage and you're looking a strategy with a real absence of staying power.

I had a think about wands, since Truenamers get UMD.

Okay so now your plan is to literally use UMD. Can you please explain to me why this character is not just a bad and complicated version of the Expert who wakes up in the morning, buys a staff of holy word and UMDs it at caster levels of "you die"?

- Polymorph and turn into a Loquasphinx to get a +4 racial bonus to Truespeak

Oh, yes, polymorph, famously a spell that is both balanced and directly accessible to Truenamers. Did you buy that wand charged fully, or only in part?

[Gnaeus]

A lot of those are really marginal bonuses though. Getting heroism, a Luckstone, prayer, and good hope all at once is a smaller bonus than the +10 ring (though, yes, substantially better overall -- though that's another question: how far down the tier list do you have to go to find a class that can't make better use of all that?). universal aptitude I'm sort of skeptical of as a solution to your problem. It's taking an action in combat, and it's subject to all the same usage restrictions as everything else you do. If you want to use Quickened universal aptitude to fire off utterances, you've lost your action economy advantage and you're looking a strategy with a real absence of staying power.“

If you can use a quickened utterance AT ALL you beat the normal DC by 20, which is 10 uses per day. This is not a staying power issue. do people not prebuff before fights in your games? You should have at least 5 extended universal aptitudes a day, each easily good for a combat. Better use for all that? I can think of no more efficient use of an ability IN THE GAME than "here's a single charge from a wand of heroism. In addition to all the normal stuff it does it gives you an extra use per day of each of each of your 28 powers, from heal 10 hp through Gate. And all those things are things that will help you in general. No one is going to be upset at someone UMDing a wand of Good Hope, a generally good buff, which also happens to have an extra use for his class abilities.

Okay so now your plan is to literally use UMD. Can you please explain to me why this character is not just a bad and complicated version of the Expert who wakes up in the morning, buys a staff of holy word and UMDs it at caster levels of "you die"?
?

Because that is not how UMD works. By raw, despite your argument contrary, but more importantly at the vast majority of tables. You might as well be arguing that they are bad at healing because touch spells affect 6 people at a time. Your argument would be better if you were using diplomacy to make fanatical followers, which is clearly how diplomacy actually is supposed to work, even if no one uses it like that. So yes, it is vastly better than using UMD to work a staff at holy word at level 50, because not only does it actually likely work but also it doesn't poison the well by convincing the DM not to listen to your rules arguments then or in the future. They can of course use UMD normally, like any other class with UMD in class and some use for Cha.

[RandomPeasant]

do people not prebuff before fights in your games?

They pre-buff with spells with durations like "1 minute/level" or "10 minutes/level", not "5 rounds". Even Extended, universal aptitude is liable to end before fights start in lots of circumstances where pre-buffing with polymorph or bear's endurance would work just fine.

Because that is not how UMD works.

Oh, good, let's have the "no, caster level is totally not a class feature" argument again. That's such a plausible argument.

but more importantly at the vast majority of tables.

Sure, that I'll grant you. But at that point, it gets hard to justify that custom item. Hell, there are tables that will look at "Paragnostic Assembly" with a blank stare. Truenamer optimization always assumes you will be able to grab every skill booster you can imagine, and I have played at very few tables where that level of dumpster-diving is allowed.

But I think once we've admitted that our skill-boosting character can use the abusable skills, we have a much more difficult argument about why the Diplomancer is fundamentally different, and the argument against that build is always "it's broken", not "it's not RAW". So we're in that same awkward position of optimizing a character on a path that is just an explicitly worse version of something else.

They can of course use UMD normally, like any other class with UMD in class and some use for Cha.

But even that is better than mucking around with utterances. Suppose all we want to do is open up fights by activating a scroll of gate and having some high-CR outsider beat up the other guys. The DC to do that is 37. That's what a Truenamer needs to use any of their abilities twice as a 10th level character. So, really, what is the point of all those damn utterances? Are we just tuning a character to be at a power level the DM will accept? Because that's all well and good, but you'll recall that the question in the thread title is about tiering.