My Thoughts On Final Fantasy 7

[Rynjin]

The "laziness" comes in from them failing to put that level of care into roughly the last 4-5 mainline entries (depending on whether you like XII or not) and instead tossing a Hail Mary play by going back to the same tapped well for the umpteenth time.

Any time Squeenix is losing money from their horrible business decisions it's time to make another Final Fantasy VII game!

I'd give Capcom the same flak, but at least they bailed out their failing franchise by making a good new game first, before they started shoveling out remakes.

[Dame_Mechanus]

The "laziness" comes in from them failing to put that level of care into roughly the last 4-5 mainline entries (depending on whether you like XII or not) and instead tossing a Hail Mary play by going back to the same tapped well for the umpteenth time.

If only Square-Enix had tried a little harder they wouldn't have had two massively popular MMORPGs bringing in consistent revenue after 20 years for the older one and three single-player titles that sold millions of copies while receiving massive critical acclaim! Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Rynjin]

If only Square-Enix had tried a little harder they wouldn't have had two massively popular MMORPGs bringing in consistent revenue after 20 years for the older one and three single-player titles that sold millions of copies while receiving massive critical acclaim! Yeah, that's the ticket.

I'm not sure if you realize how close Squeenix came to bankruptcy when 14's initial launch failed, but it was...very close. ARR literally saved the company.

That's how well FF 12 through 13-2 sold.

Hell, throughout its history Square, Squaresoft, Square-Enix, whatever it happens to be called after the NEXT buyout that removes its ass from the fire, has been constantly on the verge of bankruptcy. Famously it's how the company started the Final Fantasy franchise (as a quite literal last chance to save the company), it's the position they were in after FF 8 and 9 flopped, it was the position they were in after Final Fantasy XIV's initial launch flopped, etc.

"Square is a financially stable company" is a hell of a weird hill to die on. They are quite clearly doing SOMETHING wrong with their money and have been for close to 40 years.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Hell, throughout its history Square, Squaresoft, Square-Enix, whatever it happens to be called after the NEXT buyout that removes its ass from the fire...

None of those were buyouts. Squaresoft was Square's American branding and Square and Enix merged; the merger had been discussed for years and was put on pause when Square's first attempt at producing a movie bombed horribly and lost a huge amount of money, but the plans went through once Square stabilized more in...

Hang on, let me check my notes...

The very next year.

This is not surprising, because Square-Enix is a company with a very diverse set of entertainment holdings, and it also has a tendency to bet on a lot of things that wind up not working out terribly well. When you make a lot of wild bets, a lot of them don't pay off terribly well, and the sales of one game series do not determine the financial fortunes of a company with over five thousand employees worldwide. In fact, the whole "Square-Enix was nearly bankrupt after FFXIV flopped" thing is a known falsehood based on a misunderstanding of a quote from Naoki Yoshida claiming that another such flop could destroy the company - with his statement contextually being clear not in the sense of "there would be no more money" (at the time ARR was more than a year out from release) but "there would no longer be a reputation to salvage."

Not to mention that just on its face this is a silly statement, because if Square-Enix was truly down to cutting costs and saving money however it was possible, the far cheaper option was to just axe the service altogether instead of what actually happened. FFXIV's success was itself a pretty long bet for the company.

It's totally fine if you don't like FFVII's remake existing (I'm not thrilled about the outsized importance the game is afforded), it's totally fine if you don't fine recent series entries terribly fun (FFXV was hot garbage from both a mechanical and narrative standpoint), but none of that translates to "this was a desperate play to go to the only possible way to salvage the company" because it's simply not true. And that's shown even more clearly in the fact that if they were treating these projects as "Break Glass In Case Of Emergency" sure-fire hits, the project wouldn't be allowed to write major changes into the storyline. (This is without getting into the fact that the principle creatives associated with the game are the same in both cases, with the primary difference being that Sakaguchi is not involved with the project.)

"Oh, you're just a Square-Enix fangirl." Did you see what Yosuke Matsuda wrote at the start of the year? I just like actual facts.

[Rynjin]

The VII remake isn't a desperate play, it's just part of the tired trend of Squeenix going back to the Final Fantasy VII well any time they need quick and easy cash. It's cool if the game is good, but let's be real: even if the game was thoroughly mediocre, it would have sold like hotcakes because it has Cloud Strife in it.

My point was it would be nice if they could put the same care and attention into one of the other mainline tyitles, because XIII and XV were kinda trash, and even though I liked XII, I know it's a hugely divisive game.

That's not a great track record for mainline titles recently. XII came out in like 2006. That leaves the last pretty much universally liked singleplayer Final Fantasy at X...which is 20 years old.

[Zevox]

The VII remake isn't a desperate play, it's just part of the tired trend of Squeenix going back to the Final Fantasy VII well any time they need quick and easy cash. It's cool if the game is good, but let's be real: even if the game was thoroughly mediocre, it would have sold like hotcakes because it has Cloud Strife in it.

My point was it would be nice if they could put the same care and attention into one of the other mainline tyitles, because XIII and XV were kinda trash, and even though I liked XII, I know it's a hugely divisive game.

That's not a great track record for mainline titles recently. XII came out in like 2006. That leaves the last pretty much universally liked singleplayer Final Fantasy at X...which is 20 years old.

I don't disagree about 13. Can speak to 15 since I haven't played it - though that's in part because of the poor reputation that garnered, since I did have some amount of interest in it at first after seeing that the series was finally ditching the ATB and going for action-RPG combat. None of that changes that 7R is a great, well-made game, though.

As for whether that'll carry over into the main series, we'll have our chance to see in about half a year, when FF16 comes out. If nothing else, it should have actually good combat this time, given they have a combat designer from Devil May Cry 5 working on it. Whether the story will be any good is always a crapshoot with this series, but cross your fingers. Looking up the guy who's credited as the writer, it appears he's been an "event planner" for Final Fantasy Tactics and the main scenario writer for Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn and Heavensward, and had some amount of involvement in what I presume to be later expansions to FF14. So, even though I can't speak to those games' quality from experience, he seems to have a pedigree in games that were better received than FF13 and 15.

[Dame_Mechanus]

The VII remake isn't a desperate play, it's just part of the tired trend of Squeenix going back to the Final Fantasy VII well any time they need quick and easy cash.

As evidenced by the fact that the last time they released a game set in that universe was in... 2014, as a free-to-play mobile title absolutely no one remembers. Before that was back in 2007. Not exactly a well that's been wrung dry of every potential release multiple times. Not that the argument holds water anyway, since the project was in development for five years before release and cost an estimated $200 million, making this a definition of "quick and easy cash" that is inconsistent with most other definitions. It also, again, belies any motivation to change things instead of just running in a basically functional graphical update.

My point was it would be nice if they could put the same care and attention into one of the other mainline tyitles, because XIII and XV were kinda trash, and even though I liked XII, I know it's a hugely divisive game.

Again, you're sandwiching two unrelated concepts here. What exactly indicated that Final Fantasy XIII lacked care or attention? Or the launch version of Final Fantasy XIV? Or the revamped version? Or Final Fantasy XI? The only one your stated objection actually applies to is Final Fantasy XV, which was a rushed production that reused extensive stock assets due to a multi-year floundering development that failed to really account for how little was finished when Hajime Tabata was brought on to steer the project in. Every new mainline title has been controversial since the original FFVII, and you can still find people grousing about how that game turned the series into science fiction whilst longing for the days before science fiction elements had infested the franchise.

Which is equally absurd because there were robots back in the first game.

None of these games are lacking budget, care, personal attention, investment, or development time - again, except for FFXV, which comes down more to the fact that it was a project that inexplicably got shoved into a mainline entry from its original intention despite hardly being finished enough to need the added investment. The fact that your argument comes down to "FFXIII didn't get care or attention like FFVII because I didn't like it" doesn't have substance behind it, and trying to argue that it's a cash grab (which, in context, is synecdoche for a project made without an artistic impulse but simply a desire for sales) falls flat considering that it was a project offered to the principal creatives on the original game if it was an idea they were interested in. As it turns out, they were.

Looking up the guy who's credited as the writer, it appears he's been an "event planner" for Final Fantasy Tactics and the main scenario writer for Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn and Heavensward, and had some amount of involvement in what I presume to be later expansions to FF14.

He's credited as "Special Thanks" for Shadowbringers and Endwalker, which is usually something reserved for someone who was influential and/or created groundwork that was expanded upon later; considering how much of later expansions calls back to initial ones, this is not particularly unusual. He also served as the overseer coordinating the multiple writers who worked on Stormblood, which also means he probably was in no small part responsible for seeing Natsuko Ishikawa's potential and moving her into being the main scenario writer for the aforementioned Shadowbringers and Endwalker. (Ishikawa's writing is consistently cited as a high point in those expansions, and for good reason.)

[KillianHawkeye]

So since we're talking about game releases and finances now... I just wanna say that I don't know how successful the FF 1 through 6 remasters were in a financial sense, but they were extremely well done remakes of the older games in the series. They basically held true to the original visions of those older games while bringing in some modern conveniences, and the presentations were just magnificently done!

I know FF7 Remake is an altogether different beast, but I think FF Pixel Remasters deserve some recognition in how well they revived the classic games for modern machines and modern audiences.

[Wookieetank]

I know FF7 Remake is an altogether different beast, but I think FF Pixel Remasters deserve some recognition in how well they revived the classic games for modern machines and modern audiences.

I really don't need Yet Another Copy of FF1-6, but they do look tempting. Does it also include After Years for FF4? Haven't gotten a chance to play that yet.

[LaZodiac]

I really don't need Yet Another Copy of FF1-6, but they do look tempting. Does it also include After Years for FF4? Haven't gotten a chance to play that yet.

Does not, though there's been rumblings they're making After Years Pixel Remaster.

Honestly kinda hope they do, more people need to play these interminably bad games.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Does not, though there's been rumblings they're making After Years Pixel Remaster.

Honestly kinda hope they do, more people need to play these interminably bad games.

I don't know what I had expected with After Years as a sequel to a game I already disliked, but it definitely wasn't to dislike the source game even more as a result. Yet here we are. Maybe if it hadn't just given us the exact same cast all over again and made the whole "second generation" basically irrelevant?

But the pixel remasters are quite good, and not just because it's a good thing to have a version of FFIII that isn't the poorly rebalanced 3D remake available for everyone. I'm also tickled at the bespoke engine changes just for the opera scene in FFVI.

[Gnoman]

it's the position they were in after FF 8 and 9 flopped

I don't know where you got the idea that VIII and IX "flopped". Both were absolutely massive hits - VIII sold almost as well as every previous FF combined, IX sold a little less well largely because it wasan end-of-life release for the PS1. Square's financial problems that led to the Enix merger were 100% the fault of The Spirits Within, their disastrous attempt at revolutionizing the movie industry which resulted in a loss of nearly a hundred million dollars. Had they stuck to games, they'd have been fine.

[Quizatzhaderac]

FFIV after years was, just okay IMHO. Definitely only worth bothering if you loved FFIV, since there's no mechanical upgrade and the plot depends on you caring about this huge cast of characters.

Before FFVIIR was a thing I was hoping for a FVII after years, being as the ending was way too ambiguous (did humanity survive?), and that the world was, at best, still a cyber punk dystopia suffering a major disaster. I even had a bunch of specific ideas.

[Bartmanhomer]

I love the boss music of FF7. It's very entertaining for me.

[Psyren]

I'm enjoying 7make quite a bit, personally. I've been playing fairly slowly in between other releases and just arrived at the Shinra building.

This is the kind of remake that isn't afraid to update the more dated parts of the original, both narratively (The whole Wall Market/Honeybee Inn/Don Corneo sequence comes readily to mind, as well as... basically everything to do with the Avalanche members, especially Barrett himself) as well as the combat (needing to mash attack for a few seconds before you can cast anything is a bit annoying, as is not being allowed to use summon materia until Designated Boss Climax Time, but other than that it's a solid update to the formula.) When you run into other members of SOLDIER in this title it really does feel like a major event, and that includes Rude and Reno who felt like glorified stooges in the original, so coming out on top feels a lot more earned and impactful. And the fact that they're willing to at least tease potential story diversions is a bold direction even if nothing ends up changing ultimately, though I'm curious to see if things will.

With all that said though, I'm with Rynjin on one point - SQE does seem to return to this well when they have trouble. They had three high-profile flops this year between Babylon's Fall, ChocoboGP, and the third one is itself an example of what he's talking about (FF7 First Soldier.) All three games are being demonetized or outright shut down in 2023, and two of them were probably banking on that FF7 draw overtly. That pull not being sufficient to prop up bad games anymore has to have their execs a bit nervous.

[Delicious Taffy]

They had three high-profile flops this year between Babylon's Fall, ChocoboGP, and the third one is itself an example of what he's talking about (FF7 First Soldier.) All three games are being demonetized or outright shut down in 2023, and two of them were probably banking on that FF7 draw overtly. That pull not being sufficient to prop up bad games anymore has to have their execs a bit nervous.

Maybe if they'd stop putting all their eggs in one basket and hoping their next cash cow will be whatever over-monetized, incomplete mess of a game they put out most recently, then freaking out mere months later because it somehow failed to meet their impossible expectations (not to mention falling for scams to such a heavy degree that they jettisoned a ton of their IP just for a little extra starter cash), they might have less reasons to be nervous. The games aren't so much flopping as they are being flopped, by a company that's put itself into a state of perpetual panic.

[Zevox]

Maybe if they'd stop putting all their eggs in one basket and hoping their next cash cow will be whatever over-monetized, incomplete mess of a game they put out most recently, then freaking out mere months later because it somehow failed to meet their impossible expectations (not to mention falling for scams to such a heavy degree that they jettisoned a ton of their IP just for a little extra starter cash), they might have less reasons to be nervous. The games aren't so much flopping as they are being flopped, by a company that's put itself into a state of perpetual panic.

Yeah, Square Enix seem to be the only ones who didn't see Babylon's Fall's failure coming a mile away. As far as I could tell pretty much everyone they would've had interested in it based on Platinum Games being involved alone lost interest as soon as it was revealed to be a "Games as a Service" multiplayer-focused title, which left it as that kind of game coming out but as a full-priced title instead of the free-to-play model normally used for those, and without a big brand name like the Avengers to pull in at least some audience. (Not that their Avengers game was a smash hit either, but it at least had that name, and a half-decent single-player campaign, to help it fare better.) That something like that was a bigger flop than just about anything else in recent memory honestly should not have surprised them.

I don't know anything about Chocobo GP, but a quick look on Wikipedia tells me it was panned for having a mobile game-like monetization model, and I know that FF7 First Soldier was a free-to-play mobile shooter title they seem to have just slapped Final Fantasy branding on. So it kind of seems like the lesson of those games (and Avengers) is that Square-Enix is really bad at "Games as a Service" style games.

[Rynjin]

Maybe if they'd stop putting all their eggs in one basket and hoping their next cash cow will be whatever over-monetized, incomplete mess of a game they put out most recently, then freaking out mere months later because it somehow failed to meet their impossible expectations (not to mention falling for scams to such a heavy degree that they jettisoned a ton of their IP just for a little extra starter cash), they might have less reasons to be nervous. The games aren't so much flopping as they are being flopped, by a company that's put itself into a state of perpetual panic.

Don't...don't remind me about the NFT stuff, jeez.

It does at least give me hope that Embracer will produce some good Thief and Deus Ex games though.

[Psyren]

I don't know anything about Chocobo GP, but a quick look on Wikipedia tells me it was panned for having a mobile game-like monetization model, and I know that FF7 First Soldier was a free-to-play mobile shooter title they seem to have just slapped Final Fantasy branding on. So it kind of seems like the lesson of those games (and Avengers) is that Square-Enix is really bad at "Games as a Service" style games.

Yeah - reviewers I follow believe that ChocoboGP was actually a great game at its core, and had a decent chance of wresting the Kart Racing crown from Mario's death grip or at the very least being a solid contender. But they mired it in all the worst mobile game chaff imaginable, ranging from Battlepasses to Confuseopoly currency baggage to limited-time FOMO sales etc. All that on top of being a full-price game. It was vile.

[Zevox]

Yeah - reviewers I follow believe that ChocoboGP was actually a great game at its core, and had a decent chance of wresting the Kart Racing crown from Mario's death grip or at the very least being a solid contender. But they mired it in all the worst mobile game chaff imaginable, ranging from Battlepasses to Confuseopoly currency baggage to limited-time FOMO sales etc. All that on top of being a full-price game. It was vile.

Ah, so much the same sort of thing they did with Babylon's Fall, then. ...why did they need to learn twice in the same year that releasing a full-price game with all the worst parts of a F2P game is a bad idea?

Oh, right, this is the same company that sold a batch of reasonably valuable developers and IPs for NFT money, their management is obviously more greedy than smart. Guess we get to just cross our fingers that doesn't end up infecting their actually promising-looking games.

[Psyren]

Ah, so much the same sort of thing they did with Babylon's Fall, then. ...why did they need to learn twice in the same year that releasing a full-price game with all the worst parts of a F2P game is a bad idea?

Oh, right, this is the same company that sold a batch of reasonably valuable developers and IPs for NFT money, their management is obviously more greedy than smart. Guess we get to just cross our fingers that doesn't end up infecting their actually promising-looking games.

They've also doubled-down on NFTs this year despite the bottom falling out of the market, all the recent fraud and other crypto scandals, and their resounding rejection by most gamers and even other developers.

So yeah. Not the brightest bulbs in the Shinra storeroom.

[Zevox]

They've also doubled-down on NFTs this year despite the bottom falling out of the market, all the recent fraud and other crypto scandals, and their resounding rejection by most gamers and even other developers.

So yeah. Not the brightest bulbs in the Shinra storeroom.

Yeah, I saw that not long ago too. At the very least their President sure is dead set on that and incapable of reading the room. Doesn't bode well for their future. Here's hoping their first failures in that area do something to get the point through to him.

[Enceladus]

So yeah. Not the brightest bulbs in the Shinra storeroom.

Agreed.

Mr. Matsuda's 2023 New Year's letter is further indication of this especially the portion that reads "The market was driven more by speculative investors than by gamers though 2021. In other words, the content that was at the forefront was created based on the premise that blockchain and NFTs should result in monetization. However, in the wake of the aforementioned turbulence in the cryptocurrency industry, there is now a trend to view blockchain technology as a mere means to an end and to discuss what needs to happen to achieve the end of delivering new experiences and excitement to customers. I see this as a very beneficial development for the future growth of the industry.".

[Delicious Taffy]

Not the brightest bulbs in the Shinra storeroom.

Hehe. As ridiculous and stupid as Square's been acting lately, I've personally been loving all the comparisons to Shinra.

[Psyren]

Hehe. As ridiculous and stupid as Square's been acting lately, I've personally been loving all the comparisons to Shinra.

They literally called their premium currency for the third of the failed projects I mentioned "Shinra Coins." How... how does anyone miss the point of their own game that badly??

Agreed.

Mr. Matsuda's 2023 New Year's letter is further indication of this especially the portion that reads "The market was driven more by speculative investors than by gamers though 2021. In other words, the content that was at the forefront was created based on the premise that blockchain and NFTs should result in monetization. However, in the wake of the aforementioned turbulence in the cryptocurrency industry, there is now a trend to view blockchain technology as a mere means to an end and to discuss what needs to happen to achieve the end of delivering new experiences and excitement to customers. I see this as a very beneficial development for the future growth of the industry.".

There's a reason it wasn't driven by gamers Mr. Matsuda! There's no damn benefit for gamers!

[Ignimortis]

They literally called their premium currency for the third of the failed projects I mentioned "Shinra Coins." How... how does anyone miss the point of their own game that badly??

I think that part of the problem is that people in charge are not actually very (if at all) familiar with their own games. As far as I'm aware, Mr. Matsuda hasn't held any game-related positions in more than 15 years (at the very least). He's been listed as a CFO since 2004 before becoming president of SE in 2013.

[Bartmanhomer]

They've also doubled-down on NFTs this year despite the bottom falling out of the market, all the recent fraud and other crypto scandals, and their resounding rejection by most gamers and even other developers.

So yeah. Not the brightest bulbs in the Shinra storeroom.

This is also the reason why I prefer modern physical money.

[Psyren]

I think that part of the problem is that people in charge are not actually very (if at all) familiar with their own games. As far as I'm aware, Mr. Matsuda hasn't held any game-related positions in more than 15 years (at the very least). He's been listed as a CFO since 2004 before becoming president of SE in 2013.

It was mostly rhetorical - but fair enough.

This is also the reason why I prefer modern physical money.

Indeed, as well as regulated investment vehicles.

[Zevox]

I think that part of the problem is that people in charge are not actually very (if at all) familiar with their own games. As far as I'm aware, Mr. Matsuda hasn't held any game-related positions in more than 15 years (at the very least). He's been listed as a CFO since 2004 before becoming president of SE in 2013.

I very much doubt the company president was the one picking the name of the in-game currency for one of their games.

Personally, I'd be inclined to wonder if some of the devs did that deliberately. If they didn't want to include that sort of GaaS-style microtransaction economy, but the order to do so came from higher up and their hands were tied, something like that could be their small way of expressing their displeasure.

Or it could've been a decision made by someone who wasn't very familiar with FF7 I guess. I doubt there was no one who worked on the game and saw that currency name who knew how it sounded though - we'll just probably never know whether it was pointed out and ignored, or if anyone who noticed decided to just not say anything.

[Ignimortis]

I very much doubt the company president was the one picking the name of the in-game currency for one of their games.

Personally, I'd be inclined to wonder if some of the devs did that deliberately. If they didn't want to include that sort of GaaS-style microtransaction economy, but the order to do so came from higher up and their hands were tied, something like that could be their small way of expressing their displeasure.

Or it could've been a decision made by someone who wasn't very familiar with FF7 I guess. I doubt there was no one who worked on the game and saw that currency name who knew how it sounded though - we'll just probably never know whether it was pointed out and ignored, or if anyone who noticed decided to just not say anything.

Oh, certainly it wasn't Matsuda's decision to call it "Shinra Coins". But the general idea is that people in charge don't actually know how or why games function aside from the fact that you can make money off them, and this prompts them to seek any way that revenue flow can be improved. This, in turn,. leads to obsession with MTX and NFT and any other questionable practices.

Also, I am pretty sure that "Shinra Coins" is indeed either deliberate, or, just as likely, the result of someone going "hey, do we have any names related to corporate activity? Shinra? cool, thanks" and just...putting it on.