Aedilred's Athanasiac Random Banter #241

[Peelee]

1: Batman's strongly encoded sense of right and wrong means that chances are, he'd consider it a violation if he let somoene die for a crime they did not commit.

Bolding mine.

Batman is not all-powerul. The plan relies on Batman, who is neither a lawyer nor an agent of the state, to be able to stop an execution. This entirely ignores the third, likely option of "he is not able". And that considers that this is even in Batman's code, which is ridiculous, since by that logic he would consider it a violation if he captured a homicidal maniac known to be able to escape from the asylum to be out into the asylum where he would escape and kill more people. Every death by Joker would be a violation of Batman's creed.

Again. It's a poor story idea.

Eh, life imprisonment is a fine sentence to give to such a person.

I mean, Joker operates in a country which has the death penalty for his crimes.

Irrelevant unless he's being prosecuted federal. The state needs to have the death penalty for state prosecutions to enact it.

/semantics.

[Jasdoif]

Totally, valid. Harley gets actual character development while the Joker is trapped in his own neuroses.

...She was also a complete accident. She was made up for an episode of Batman the Animated series, for a scene that was ultimately cut. They decided to keep the generic minion design though and... Yeah.

I feel like you're unduly downplaying Arleen Sorkin here. How many other people have taken a voice they did for a dream sequence in an episode of a soap opera like Days of our Lives, and transferred it to a character in superhero fiction they would voice personally for two decades?

[LaZodiac]

Bolding mine.

Batman is not all-powerul. The plan relies on Batman, who is neither a lawyer nor an agent of the state, to be able to stop an execution. This entirely ignores the third, likely option of "he is not able". And that considers that this is even in Batman's code, which is ridiculous, since by that logic he would consider it a violation if he captured a homicidal maniac known to be able to escape from the asylum to be out into the asylum where he would escape and kill more people. Every death by Joker would be a violation of Batman's creed.

Again. It's a poor story idea.


Irrelevant unless he's being prosecuted federal. The state needs to have the death penalty for state prosecutions to enact it.

/semantics.

As I said earlier, the onus is kinda on Arkham there for not just, strapping this guy to a table. Or putting a bullet in his head.

I feel like you're unduly downplaying Arleen Sorkin here. How many other people have taken a voice they did for a dream sequence in an episode of a soap opera like Days of our Lives, and transferred it to a character in superhero fiction they would voice personally for two decades?

I'd have to run the numbers but I'd imagine ever so slightly more than you'd think.

[Rater202]

Bolding mine.

Batman is not all-powerul. The plan relies on Batman, who is neither a lawyer nor an agent of the state, to be able to stop an execution. This entirely ignores the third, likely option of "he is not able". And that considers that this is even in Batman's code, which is ridiculous, since by that logic he would consider it a violation if he captured a homicidal maniac known to be able to escape from the asylum to be out into the asylum where he would escape and kill more people. Every death by Joker would be a violation of Batman's creed.

Batman stopped the execution by following the bread crumbs to find the real killer.

Which is entirely within his power, as the World's Greatest Detective, to do.

I mean, I can't think of a single case where "objective proof that person in question was falsely convicted" wouldn't at the bare minimum get a stay of execution.

And the logic is "it is within your power to prevent someone from being falsely executed. Will you?"

[Fyraltari]

Usually, whenever the Joker's suicide-by-Batman impulse come up, he puts more work into it. Like killing a Robin or placing a bomb in an orphanage wired to explode if he's heart is still beating by midnight or something.

The notion that he would "win" if Batman doesn't save him from a situation that he deliberately put himself in is kind of weird. What would Batman's one rule force him to save him if he jumped from a bridge too?

Also, back to what I said, why would Joker be bothered by Batman saving his life when that was one of his two acceptable outcomes, anyway? In practice all that happened is that Joker tampered with an investigation (that Batman maybe would have looked into anyway) and made it harder by adding a time factor. Which I guess fits the character in a "he's a petty ****" kind of way, but is much more low stakes than what you described, Rater.

[S]I don't recall the exact minute of that scene but I don't recall doubting for a second Batman would have.

Yeah, well, you know... That's just, like, your interpretation, man.

Also, what DLC for Knight was that? I generally enjoyed that game but really hated the "you have a car so a ton of things are now car-based even though it makes no sense narratively" parts.

League of Assassins. Haven't played the game myself, cause I play on PC.

Eh, depends which Goblin.

The Green one. Funnily, because of that, all the various goblins, be they hob or knight or whatever end up being called bouffon, regardless of how serious they are.

Then again, they dress up in halloween costumes to attack people on hoverboards, so seriousness probably doesn't play a big part.

Also, Rater, I'm going to support the opinion that you should watch Harley Quinn at your earliest convenience, it's a riot through and through.

[Rater202]

The Green one.

There have been four Green Goblins. Five if you count the short-lived meat-robot Osborn made that one time.

Whether or not the Green Goblin can be considered a Joker counterpart depends on which Green Goblin you're talking about.

Norman is closer to a Lex Luthor type. Harry could be interpreted as a Joker analog but he was ironically maybe a little too crazy. The Third Goblin was just some random guy who stole some stuff and got killed because he had no idea what he was doing, and Phil Urich was ironically a hero as the Green Goblin.

For what it's worth part, when Marvel and DC collaborated in the 90s Joker was compared and contrasted against The Red Skull, Carnage, and Sabretooth.

[Peelee]

Batman stopped the execution by following the bread crumbs to find the real killer.

Which is entirely within his power, as the World's Greatest Detective, to do.

I mean, I can't think of a single case where "objective proof that person in question was falsely convicted" wouldn't at the bare minimum get a stay of execution.

And the logic is "it is within your power to prevent someone from being falsely executed. Will you?"

First, finding the person who did it is not the same as getting a convict released. The two are quite far apart. Batman's not a lawyer. He can find the person that did it, sure. Can he get the conviction overturned? That's a whole 'nother question entirely. And not in the purview of detectives.

Second, "objective proof" isn't what you think it is. The entire point of trials is that "objective proof" may not actually be objective nor proof, and even if it is, circumstances may change things. If Joker was convicted, then there was a very strong case against him. Reasonable doubt in court is a remarkably high bar to clear, intentionally so. Lawyers are pretty hesitant to put it to a degree of accuracy, but if pressed, they'll usually peg it around 95-98% minimum certainty that the accused is guilty. Joker apparently met that threshold.

Third, courts dont prove innocence. You can't plead innocent. The jury will never say "we find the defendant innocent". Courts prove guilt. Joker was found guilty. Batman found some other guy who did it? Great! That doesn't prove the Joker innocent. For all they know, Joker was still involved and the prosecution just got some details on their theory of the case wrong. But it doesn't "prove him innocent" because you literally can't do that. It also doesn't prove the other guy did it, because we have that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing, where even if you know for a fact that the other guy did it, legally your knowledge is completely worthless. The only thing that matters is the verdict. And guess what, its significantly harder to get convicted of killing Bob when someone else was already convicted of killing Bob. The evidence against Joker? That can, and will, be used by the defense to cast doubt on whether the real guy did the crime. And it was strong enough to convince a jury once already. It doesn't even have to convince the whole jury this time. Just one.

Fourth, death sentences are famously more expensive than life sentences because they carry a mandatory amount of extra legal processes, such as appeals. Because, ya know, it's death. There's no "oopsie" button to let them go in the unlikely event they do get the conviction vacated. Batman has a decade to do his stuff. Maybe two. He has one ironclad rule, and that rule ain't "let a omnicidal maniac out of jail if process wasn't served correctly". Every day Joker is in prison without breaking out is a day the people of Gotham are safe for him. Sure, Even if Batman subscribed to the frankly ridiculous idea that the Joker getting himself on death row unfairly means Batman killed him, he can damn sure take his time with delivering the evidence (which has no chain of custody and will be tossed out by the court leaving Joker to die because, again, his plan is incredibly stupid, but that's the case with a lot of Batman stuff so we'll ignore that).

Fifth, remember points two and three, where there's really strong evidence against the Joker? Let's pretend, for the moment, that Batman gets all the evidence needed to convict the real one, and also presents it to the authorities in a shockingly timely fashion (let's pretend that the Gotham judicial system is a complete ****ing kangaroo court and the death penalty gets enacted a couple weeks after sentencing why not - we already have a man in a Halloween costume punching clowns in 1980's New York City where the police apparently have never been issued guns despite Halloween costume supervillains who basically act as the world's worst form of rent control), AND ALSO the other guy gets convicted! This is literally the best possible scenario for the Joker. So he goes free, right? No! He wins the judicial lottery and gets a retrial! Where all of that aforementioned string evidence can now be used against him again! It was already strong enough once, so that's going to suck for him. And before you can point out that someone else being convicted means Joker's defense can use that evidence against Joker, don't forget that there is a newly convicted murderer looking at the death penalty and will just be itching to try to make a deal to lessen his sentence. And hey, if only he could implicate someone else as an accomplice. Someone who the police would love off the street, who the DA would love to have a meaningful conviction for, who the mayor would love to ride the "we got him!" wave for re-election. And hey, as it happens, that guy was already convicted of this exact thing, so the accomplice claim is shockingly strong! Do you think the guy who is now going to have his own head on the chopping block would choose to not swap places with the Joker when it presents itself as a golden opportunity? The murderer won't have an issue with telling a lie to save his own ass, and while that's the line defense lawyers always trot out in such cases, it'll probably be just a wee bit more effective when the defendant it's being used against is the Joker. Convicts cutting deals for testimony relies in whether the jury believes the defense or the witness, and the Joker has pretty abysmal credibility to any jury he'd get. It would be fitting for Joker since this plan is basically acting like a clown for no good reason.

But wait, there's more! Let's pretend that everything magically works out for Joker. Other dude gets convicted and out of an irrational spate of conscience cannot bring himself to lie and rope the Joker in to save his own life (or get him less prison time). Joker gets a retrial and gets acquitted. Miracle of miracles, he fought the law and he won! Justice! Free at last, free at last, than-oh, wait, he's still got all those other convictions and is still a ward of the state, which means he's not going free. And hey, he's now been declared mentally fit! And for people committed to mental asylums by the legal system, the criteria for release doesn't tend to be "is now declared sane", it tends to be "is no longer a danger to themselves or others". Nobody would claim that, so surprise, he gets to stay remanded to state custody! Except oops, he's now been found mentally fit, we can't toss him into an asylum. He wasn't fit to stand trial before, so we have all those cases backlogged against him that can now suddenly be enacted! Murder doesn't have a statute of limitations in most places, so while the trial must be speedy, they can wait as long as they like to actually press the charges against you. The floodgates are now open, and he's not in Arkham anymore. So, right back to death row for him.

This is a stupid plan.

[Mystic Muse]

As someone who binged all 3 seasons of the Harley Quinn show, it's worth the watch.

[Peelee]

I'm going to support the opinion that you should watch Harley Quinn at your earliest convenience, it's a riot through and through.

As someone who binged all 3 seasons of the Harley Quinn show, it's worth the watch.

What's it on?

[Fyraltari]

Batman's not a lawyer.

Wouldn't surprise me if he was. Dude is an everything.

Because, ya know, it's death. There's no "oopsie" button to let them go in the unlikely event they do get the conviction vacated.

It's the DC universe. There are several.

let's pretend that the Gotham judicial system is a complete ****ing kangaroo court

Pretend?

[Mystic Muse]

What's it on?

HBO Max, Youtube Premium, and Amazon Premium from a short googling.

[Peelee]

Wouldn't surprise me if he was. Dude is an everything.

Can't be. Bruce Wayne could but that'd take away from his cover. Batman would be background checked and fingerprinted, among other things, which he'd refuse to do and would not be allowed to be an officer if the court.

Also batman going to law school would be amusing. I want a return of Silver Age DC with that storyline.

It's the DC universe. There are several.

Eh, for Batman its just the Lazarus pits. DC tends to just reboot the universe more often than bringing people back and Marvel just brings people back more often than rebooting the universe.

Pretend?

Fair.

HBO Max, Youtube Premium, and Amazon Premium from a short googling.

Huzzah for the last option!

[Anonymouswizard]

Meanwhile I'm here trying to work which, if any, streaming service has Galavant in this backwards isle. Because Spotify shunted the soundtrack anlt me and darn it now I'm hooked.

[Fyraltari]

Can't be. Bruce Wayne could but that'd take away from his cover. Batman would be background checked and fingerprinted, among other things, which he'd refuse to do and would not be allowed to be an officer if the court.

Batman has other aliases. Now, I'm sure there's a provision somewhere that says that enrolling under a fake name voids it or whatever, but Batman isn't exactly the most law-abiding of law enforcers.

Eh, for Batman its just the Lazarus pits. DC tends to just reboot the universe more often than bringing people back and Marvel just brings people back more often than rebooting the universe.

You know Jason Todd? He didn't come back thanks to the Lazarus pits (that's only in the movie) he came back because Superboy punched reality. This not a metaphor.
Also, Batman has a colleague who goes by Deadman for a reason.

Seriously though, DC has had so many dead characters come back to life, they had a whole zombie apocalypse event about that which ended with the claim they would cut it from there on. They did not.

[LaZodiac]

Meanwhile I'm here trying to work which, if any, streaming service has Galavant in this backwards isle. Because Spotify shunted the soundtrack anlt me and darn it now I'm hooked.

There are... other, alternatives to streaming services.

But it will involve a bit of sneaking, sneaking, hush hush hush~

[Peelee]

Batman has other aliases. Now, I'm sure there's a provision somewhere that says that enrolling under a fake name voids it or whatever, but Batman isn't exactly the most law-abiding of law enforcers.

He can train as a ninja out of where he'd be recognized. But he's got to apply for the bar where he wants to practice. And then show up in court as that person.

You know Jason Todd? He didn't come back thanks to the Lazarus pits (that's only in the movie) he came back because Superboy punched reality. This not a metaphor.
Also, Batman has a colleague who goes by Deadman for a reason.

Seriously though, DC has had so many dead characters come back to life, they had a whole zombie apocalypse event about that which ended with the claim they would cut it from there on. They did not.

I didn't say DC didn't do it. I said they reboot their universe more. They can still do it a lot.

There are... other, alternatives to streaming services.

But it will involve a bit of sneaking, sneaking, hush hush hush~

I assume you mean legally sharing accounts among friends.

[Keltest]

He can train as a ninja out of where he'd be recognized. But he's got to apply for the bar where he wants to practice. And then show up in court as that person.

Only if you assume that he wants to practice law in the technical legal sense instead of have a solid understanding of the legal system, which is not implausible for batman, and not totally out there for some flavors of Bruce Wayne either.

And frankly, Batman could well be recognized as a lawyer in Gotham. I believe some dragon earlier commented on the shambles of their legal system.

[LaZodiac]

He can train as a ninja out of where he'd be recognized. But he's got to apply for the bar where he wants to practice. And then show up in court as that person.

I didn't say DC didn't do it. I said they reboot their universe more. They can still do it a lot.



I assume you mean legally sharing accounts among friends.

Yeah, of course! I'm a scoundrel, not a criminal.

[Fyraltari]

He can train as a ninja out of where he'd be recognized. But he's got to apply for the bar where he wants to practice. And then show up in court as that person.

I'm not seeing an issue? He's a mobster in Gotham as "Matches Malone", he can be Batt Burdock, attorney at maw too if he wants.

Edit:

Spoiler: Also

Show

Semi-remated, I have restarted to watch Better Call Saul.

I didn't say DC didn't do it. I said they reboot their universe more. They can still do it a lot.

More than Marvel, or more than they resurrect characters. Because one of those isn't true.

I assume you mean legally sharing accounts among friends.

*Awkwardly pushes bottle of rum out of sight*

[Keltest]

Apropos of nothing, I'd play the crap out of a Batman Ace Attorney game.

[LaZodiac]

Apropos of nothing, I'd play the crap out of a Batman Ace Attorney game.

There needs to be more games that emphasis that side of him, honestly. Too much bat themed punch-man, not enough bat-themed Columbo level detective work.

[Anonymouswizard]

There are... other, alternatives to streaming asservices.

But it will involve a bit of sneaking, sneaking, hush hush hush~

Sneaking, I believe that's the one done in Fortissimo.

I assume you mean legally sharing accounts among friends.

Yeah, I'm with family over Christmas, which means I'll be able to access everything for a short while. Enough to binge a series of an ordinary show, or a third of an American season.

ETA: now I want Law and Order: Justice League. Darn the lot of you to heck!

[Lord Raziere]

There needs to be more games that emphasis that side of him, honestly. Too much bat themed punch-man, not enough bat-themed Columbo level detective work.

Heh, I can see it being something the Miles Edgeworth games, where Batman goes around crime scenes arguing with people over who is and isn't innocent and solving crimes with pure logic while inwardly snarking about the people he comes across, his personality fits.

in fact are we sure there isn't a potential alternate universe where Phoenix Wright is Superman and Miles Edgeworth is Batman? because that would make a lot of sense.

[Rater202]

For what it's worth, in the DC Universe it's a matter of federal law that costumed vigilantes don't have to unmask themselves or do anything that would compromise their secret identities in order to give testimony and the evidence they collect is admissible in court.

This is mostly to justify narrative conceit but it's there.

Also "it won't stick" is one of Batman's arguments for why he doens't make exceptions to his No Killing Rule.

[LaZodiac]

Heh, I can see it being something the Miles Edgeworth games, where Batman goes around crime scenes arguing with people over who is and isn't innocent and solving crimes with pure logic while inwardly snarking about the people he comes across, his personality fits.

in fact are we sure there isn't a potential alternate universe where Phoenix Wright is Superman and Miles Edgeworth is Batman? because that would make a lot of sense.

Yeah, the style of gameplay Edgeworth's games has fits Batman a lot more.

Now I'm thinking of Superman doing Phoenix's animations and they fit really really well.

For what it's worth, in the DC Universe it's a matter of federal law that costumed vigilantes don't have to unmask themselves or do anything that would compromise their secret identities in order to give testimony and the evidence they collect is admissible in court.

This is mostly to justify narrative conceit but it's there.

Also "it won't stick" is one of Batman's arguments for why he doens't make exceptions to his No Killing Rule.

That's reasonable in a setting with super heroes.

I am a bit sad that Batman is, at least somewhat, aware of his place in the universe as a man composed of infinite suffering.

[Rater202]

That's reasonable in a setting with super heroes.

Yeah, any superhero setting that exists long enough is going to have all kinds of weird legal quirks get mentioned over time as writers feel the need to justify the conceits of the setting.

and sometimes they're baked in: The Parahumans Series(Worm and Ward) have laws on the books that restrict what a parahuman can and cannot do with their powers when it comes to making money.

Something about powers makes it unfair to non-powered competitors in certain fields.

...Which means that a lot of parahumans end up being superheroes or supervillains for lack of options. A member of the local branch of the government-sponsored team int he first story was going to be a baseball player but his powers mean he can't be a pro athlete even though they aren't directly useful for sports.

[Peelee]

For what it's worth, in the DC Universe it's a matter of federal law that costumed vigilantes don't have to unmask themselves or do anything that would compromise their secret identities in order to give testimony and the evidence they collect is admissible in court.

This is mostly to justify narrative conceit but it's there.

That is insane overreach and is terrifying to imagine.

[Rater202]

That is insane overreach and is terrifying to imagine.

It's that or let supervillains all walk for lack of admissible evidence.

[Peelee]

It's that or let supervillains all walk for lack of admissible evidence.

Testimony is evidence (testimony is actually the foundation of all evidence!). Superhero could testify without their identity being compromised, and without tossing out that pesky "unreasonable search and seizure" thing entirely.

[Anonymouswizard]

Superheroes tend to work a lot better if they're actual government agents. Probably not literally supercops, although they should definitely be a thing too. You can even play with some of the same secret identity tropes!

But yeah, it's just another one of the reasons I don't like superheroes. My one serious attempt to come up with a superhero story ended up seriously nerfing the power level before taking a hard turn into urban fantasy. Then I tried writing more of a pulp hero, which actually mostly went okay but ended up sliding into a more serious SF angle. I think I might just not like the power level and tendency to ignore extralegality of supers.