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Thread: Willow on Disney+
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2023-01-03, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
It's ridiculous because the argument is that they both simultaneously do not care enough to actually watch the show while also caring enough to leave a review and also that those people represent a significant enough portion of the total reviews to sway the overall score in a meaningful way when put up against the people who did watch it and left a review reflecting their honest opinion.
The entire argument is just something that the corporations involved came up with to delegitimize criticism and far too many people buy it.
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2023-01-03, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
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2023-01-03, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
If you want to leave those two quotes next to each other and let them speak for themselves, then by all means let's do so. I'm more than confident enough in what they say to leave it as the final word.
It's not a ridiculous notion in and of itself, but it seems to always come with a giant helping of special pleading where people leaving dishonest reviews only ever flows in one direction and only ever explains the reviews they don't like. Amazon was caught red-handed producing staged "Superfan" reactions in promotional materials, but of course our working assumption should be that there must be tons of people who haven't watched the show giving it negative reviews but that Amazon would never do anything like using sock puppet accounts to add fake positive reviews.
There's just no evidence that "fake reviews" are systematically resulting in lower user review scores. Media that ends up being definitively successful never seems to have much trouble getting good user reviews. The fact that media which isn't even financially successful can often get positive user review scores even demonstrates the opposite- that the inherent bias is toward positive review scores, and that it seems to take pre-existing investment in a franchise in order to get people who don't like something motivated enough to leave negative reviews.
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2023-01-10, 04:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I know Scotlands real, I've been several times.
Someone wrote that he used to make less angry post until one time when he was hungover and people liked it. So it might be that it's that fake anger/hangover that grinds my gears rather than the accent.
So I'll apologize for that, the accent is most likely real, but inflated/mixed with someting else that I find unpalatable.
My critique follows the same vein his does, overly agressive and sweeping judgements, or as you would say:
Ooor he's a guy who makes videos on the internet talking about his opinions about movies and shows. Agree with what he says or don't...
Ooor I'm a guy who makes comments on the internet talking about my opinions about youtube critics. Agree with what I say or don't...
That was me, and yes, that would have worked a lot better than what it seems they are doing now.
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2023-01-13, 04:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Last couple of episodes were better.
Still baffled by the music choices.
Loved the visuals on the shattered sea.
Ruby Cruz and Erin Kellyman are great characters, just wish they were in a better written show.
Last ten minutes were awesome. Stinger didn't make much sense, but was pretty damn cool.
Mostly, the show is disappointing and makes me sad about Val Kilmer, but it was good enough that I am still hoping for a season 2.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2023-01-17, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Yeah, the tonal clash is one of the biggest problems the series has and the music doesn't help. I like Money For Nothing, but it's a horribly inappropriate choice for a fantasy series. The costuming and way that the characters act/speak like they're from 2022 LA rather than a fantasy world have been consistent issues though, so as Jarring as Money For Nothing was, it's not a new issue.
All in all, the series went more or less where I was expecting it to as far as the main characters were concerned, so I can't say I'm disappointed. Just rather unimpressed. Kit being the big hero who gets to use the magic armor feels unearned. Jade continues to feel bland and unnecessary. Graydon still has potential, but I was really hoping it would be more "I've learned to be confident" and less "I can suddenly do magic now too". Boorman and Elora I still like as characters, but didn't care for what the final episode did with them. Boorman was cheated out of what should've been a great moment for him... The man solos the enemies who have been chasing them for the entire season (how he could when the group could do very little against them up until this point is separate issue), but we see none of it. As for Elora, I was expecting she'd end things with Airk and expect that she'll probably end up with Graydon in the end, but the way it was handled isn't convincing. She decides that she's just not into him, but what has changed between them between the first and final episodes to bring about that change of heart? He's acting strangely, but it's obvious both in-universe and out that he's doing it under magical influence from the crone and the... worm... goo...
Anyways... Airk himself. The twist where he's turned evil was something that I hadn't expected. It's not some shocking twist, but it was something that could've had some genuine weight behind it. The show doesn't treat it like that though. He's a man who was abducted and left stranded with no food or water and held out until he was on the brink of death before drinking the slurm and being corrupted. It's a tragic story but the show doesn't really treat it that way.
All in all, it's a fairly standard current-day Disney production. Middling at best writing that tries to prop itself up on nostalgia and CGI. It's certainly not the worst thing I've seen, nor even the worst fantasy series from 2022 specifically that I've seen, but I wouldn't call it good either. I don't have high hopes when Disney is involved, though.
I did like the trolls from episode 6. Probably because they reminded me of Orcs With Normal Voices. Sorta fits in with the issues about tonal clash, though. I found them hilarious, but if the series was meant to be taken serious, is that the reaction the show should be going for?
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2023-01-17, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I felt like there were a few too many characters here, like they went beyond love triangle into love octogon territory. I feel like they could have combined a few of the characters; Jade could have been merged with Elora or Kit and maybe Borman and Graydon could have been merged as well and imo it would have made for a much tighter show.
Also, LOL at the futurama referance. I didn't think of it at the time, but yeah.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2023-01-17, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Originally Posted by TheSummoner
…the characters act/speak like they're from 2022 LA….
Explains a lot, really.
Originally Posted by TheSummoner
It's certainly not the worst thing I've seen, nor even the worst fantasy series from 2022 specifically that I've seen….
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2023-01-17, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Agreed. Erik Kain (of Forbes) put up a video discussing how he thinks the series could've been if they had merged some of the characters and worked to keep the tone consistent with a fantasy setting. Might be worth a watch.
Honey comes from a bee's behind. Milk comes from a cow's behind. Concentrated evil comes from a worm's behind. And have you ever used toothpaste?
Which could also work if you went all in on comedy/parody rather than a mostly played straight fantasy story.
No, last year. Willow started in 2022, and both Rings of Power and Witcher: Blood Origin exist.Last edited by TheSummoner; 2023-01-17 at 05:40 PM.
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2023-01-17, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
So I've only seen the first episode so far, but I saw it after having just watched the film. In comparison it kind of sucks.
Yes, in very loose terms the film follows the same hero's journey tropes as many popular stories, but it didn't feel generic. This is partially due to a few things that the series doesn't do, particularly the first character focused on is the somewhat unusual main character, a grown family man with no real adventuring skills roped into this because of a big heart, and the shot of the crossroads bringing a desolate feel to the 'lands beyond safety'. Actually, the film does this brilliant bit where moving towards Bavmorda the lands become more barren, and moving away they become more lush, it really works.
But at this point I can see two ways for the show to be good: it can play it with a straight face and use strong writing to get away with things it couldn't with a wink and a smile, or it could go full Galavant* style parody and make me laugh. But from the looks of what I've seen it's going to do neither, and is showing serious danger of going into Marvel movie 'too jokey to get away with silly, not enough of a comedy to get away with silly'. There's silly moments in the original film, but it's earnest enough and puts enough effort into justifying them that you don't mind.
I mean, it's not like I hate bad media, I watched Anna and the Apocalypse yesterday because the last third sounded delightfully bad (it was annoyingly competent, but still enjoyable) and I love the Dungeons & Dragons movie for what it is. But this, as others has said, is just kind of bland.
* I'm very annoyed I can't get that over here.
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2023-01-17, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Watched it. Just hope my feed isn't filled with MRA videos for the next six months like that time I watched a Critical Drinker link...
Yeah, I mostly agree. I like the idea of Kit looking for Madmartifan much better than Airk, and I think I would merge Jade and Elora and Borman and Gradyson.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2023-01-18, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I pretty much agree with everything you said here. I'll add that I really find it disapointing that they didn't treat the fact that Airk has been litterally tortured for don't know how long with more weight. That could have compensated for some of the silliness. Guess it would have been to dark for the show.
I really did like the part with Eloras hair, how it changed colour gradually, nice touch.
Also liked the whole love between siblings in the end, if it's one thing Disney does right it's the whole true love exists in many forms and not just between lovers.
Did not like the push for Elora and Graydon as a thing, they have zero chemistry.
Overall it's kind of average. It's held back by weird tonal shifts and way to modern looks and music. Also held back by too much teen drama.
One thing that I came to think of is that it feels a bit like one of those DnD campaigns were the GM constantly put up super powerful enemies in small numbers so the PC:s always have to gang up on them. And how you then never get to feel really bad ass.
The fight scenes in this reminds me of that, they never have like a clear win against any enimies that showcase how good they are. So are Boorman & co good fighters and the bad guys super tough, or are the bad guys kind of average and Boorman & co sucks?
Just a thought.
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2023-01-22, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I rewatched the last episode again and noticed something; the army in the last scene is not made up of trolls as I had thought, but what appear to be serpent-people right out of a Howard story. That's a neat touch, I wonder how it fits in to the lore of the setting.
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2023-01-23, 07:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2023-01-24, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I think the decision on the size of the cast ultimately boils down to the fact that if you want to present this as a “growing to be the heroes” -story, what it pretty much was for Élira and Gradyson, you need some competent (ok, semi-competent will do) people around to explain how the group survives even their first encounter with hostile world. As Willow is no Gandalf, and should not be, you kinda need Jade and Birman to watch over the three protagonists (Kit, Elora and Gradyson).
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2023-01-24, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Saw the first season last week. Here are some of my thoughts.
SpoilerThe modern dialog is very jarring when put into a fantasy setting. One of the characters referred to killing as "ganked". I was not aware that there was a rich and thriving League of Legends/CS:GO gamer community in the Willow-verse. Stop talking like a bunch of american highschoolers please.
Also they have very mixed accents that do not fit their character.
The modern attitudes and sensibilities were also jarring. This is a medieval feudal society, why are the main cast characters giving each other post-modern critiques?
Onto the cast.
I hate princess Kit Thantalos. I will never sympathize with spoiled, pampered, privileged, protected young adults and children who spend all day crying about how unfair their life is. If this character died it would've been a better show. I really hope she ends up abdicating, make Elora the new princess.
Elora Danan is fine though. I like that she's basically a baker, it's funny that she joins them on the adventure. I don't know why I like it, I just do. One of the adventurers is a baker. I think she got too powerful too fast, it was too abrupt. She went from just a baker, to being barely able to perform the easiest spell, to suddenly "ganking" the Lili. I would've preferred a team effort from the whole group.
Jade Claymore I'm 50/50 about. She's fine but is also kinda boring. Even when the story centers on her she can't really keep the spotlight.
Grayson Hastur, he started out boring and never got past that stage. I'm sorry but killing your brother is not a character trait.
Tharaxus Boorman. I love him. He's great. I hated it when he said "this is not my story" WELL WHY NOT? MAKE IT HIS STORY, HE IS ONE OF THE FEW COOL CHARACTERS. MAKE A STANDALONE STORY, we can call it "The Great Adventures of Tharaxus Boorman". I'd watch that. Also give him the Lux Arcana. He's 100% more worthy than Kit.
Willow. Willow is great. Honestly, without Warwick I would not have watched the show.
Airk Thantalos. What can you say about him? Standard pretty boy prince. The other characters said as much. Because that's all he is.
The silly hijinks they get into.
I think that's fine, I was expecting it. Willow from 1988 was a silly fantasy movie, it was good because it had heart, not because it was set in some very special fantasy setting. What made Willow good was the characters and that it didn't take itself too seriously. So I didn't mind that this show didn't take itself seriously either. But at least the movie featured medieval people with medieval dialog and medieval sensibilities.
Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2023-01-24, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I've seen a post inspired by the recent Forspoken discourse that, I think, also applies to the new Willow: https://www.clockworkworlds.com/post-cringe/
They're doing it because if they didn't they'd have to write fantasy straight and sincerely, and they don't think they can sell it that way.
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2023-01-25, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I think this is very much a question of preference as ultimately it did not bother me that much. After all, the show was clearly not taking itself or the setting all that seriously so I did not think there was tonal clash between the dialogue/aesthetics and the story they were trying to tell. But maybe they should have made it more obvious that this is not going to be serious (or god forsaken gritty) fantasy but lighthearted fun more akin the Knight’s Tale.
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2023-01-30, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Originally Posted by The Last Unicorn
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2023-02-20, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Nice, mostly-family friendly, light-hearted fantasy.
It felt like a young teen D&D campaign for sure.... and that was fine by me.
I actually liked the "modern" vibes, as it felt more "real" to how current fantasy fans like their stuff.*This Space Available*
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2023-02-20, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
It fits Frey because she actually is from another world.
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2023-02-21, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Yeah. The dialogue didn't bother me at all. I also got very much a "Knights Tale" feel from the series. And liked it. Was actually refreshing for once to not have a bunch of modern folks all speaking in ridiculous accents in order to make the audience think "this is in Ye Olden Times" or something. It's a stylistic thing. And I'm ok with that, as long as it's consistent. Which it was. I actually enjoyed the series a lot more than I thought I was going to.
Oh. And I don't know what some folks are talking about. I absolutely *loved* the cover songs. It tied the whole syle thing together perfectly IMO.
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2023-02-22, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
A friend of mine likes the first two episodes but felt Warrick Davis's acting was phoned in, I still haven't suffered all the way through episode two. Honestly the big difference seems to have been that I've seen the original film while she hasn't.
To me it feels wrong in the way a grim and gritty Robin Hood feels wrong. The fact it doesn't take itself seriously is a massive problem, as it leads to a massive tonal clash coming from the film. It also feels likf Disney wanted to make an MCU-style D&D series but couldn't get the rights, so slapped a different licence on it, and to be honest the MCU style started to lose its charm around the time of Avengers Assemble.
Plus unlike the film, which very much has a clever twist, it feels like it's going nowhere.
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2023-02-22, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
You know, I've tried really hard to stay out of this thread, but I'm really sick and tired of hearing this particular comment.
To be clear, the original film had scenes such as Val Kilmer in a giant snowball plowing down a hill through an enemy camp. Full on Looney Tunes style.
Not taking itself seriously is EXACTLY on par with Ron Howard's original film. It's like the nostalgia goggles keep people from seeing that.
I'm sorry you are not enjoying it after episode one. I would stop, because you aren't going to start liking it at any point because it stays pretty consistent.Last edited by Wintermoot; 2023-02-22 at 10:52 AM.
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2023-02-22, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2023-02-22, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
It does stuff like that with a straight face. It's a silly scene, but it makes sense in context and the film takes it completely seriously. Taking itself seriously doesn't mean it's not also allowed to be fun.
Plus well done on cherry picking the single most out there scene in the entire film.
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2023-02-22, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
I mean, do you want me to list out ten scenes? What's your metric requirement?
High Aldwin: Go in the direction the bird is flying!
Burgelkutt: It's going back to the village!
High Aldwin: Ignore the bird! Follow the river!
Rool in love with a cat
Madmartigan cross dressing. "Wanna breed?"
You know, the more I think about it, the more I think Ron Howard ripped off Looney tunes wholesale. If only Pepe Le Rool had a skunk stripe in his hair when he was chasing that cat.
I dunno. seems like you watched a different movie. Like I said, it offends me when people disparage the show because "it's so tonally different than the movie" when it wasn't. In fact I think they did an admirable job going back, looking at the movie, and aping its style.
Now they did a lot of other things wrong. Series was far from perfect.Last edited by Wintermoot; 2023-02-22 at 12:52 PM.
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2023-02-22, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
Which could also be labeled as "tonal disconnect", right? The original film "worked" precisely because it had characters that were not really your stereotypical "heroes", wandering about, getting involved in silly things along the way, but with the backdrop of an actual seriously bad situation that had to be dealt with. And it did this by being very direct and "real" with the characters.
Which is almost the exact same feel in the series. Yeah. There are some differences (there's things you have to do differently when telling a story across an entire season of a show rather than in a single film format). More charactes, for one. More focus on interpersonal stuff, for another. Some of it somewhat troped, but I like that the characters actually seem aware that what they are doing is silly and tropish, but then moving on.
If you only got the first couple episodes in, I would seriously suggest continuing. The first two episodes are more or less the "set up", and a lot of things are pretty contrived (and yeah, intentionally so). It settles down into a more straightfoward adventure story after that point.
Two most quoted lines from Willow (the film):
"Ignore the bird; Follow the river!"
And (my personal favorite):
"Not a woman!"
Literally no one remembers any of the dramatic serious dialogue from the film. They're there. They're just not memorable. And even the "serious plot points" are gleefully stepped over by random events and humor. The bad guys are basically defeated because the brownies get into love potion hijinks, causing Madmartigan to fall in love with Sorsha accidentally, which leads to her actually falling in love with him and then switching sides. The only one played straight is the general. Bavmorda, the big bad, manages to get tricked by Willow, but instead of doing something normal like blasting him and then checking to see what he did with Elora, she manages to knock over her spell components, and triggers her own banishment spell on herself. I mean, if we're going to critique this as a serious film, that's a pretty ridiculous way for the big bad to die, right? Random lab accident?
What's next? Sauron accidentally impales himself in the eye and dies in a puff of smoke? The Master Control Program typoed a command and deleted himself ('/bin/rm -rf /', ooops!)?
It worked precisely because it had the right balance of "serious threat" and "fun/silly things". It also came at a time when actual fantasy films were virtually non-existent. And the few we'd had over the previous couple decades either fell into the "muscle bound hero" trope, or just took themselves way too seriously (or both), or were just aimed at kids. The film showed that you could inject humor into an otherwise "serious" story, and if you did it correctly, and in the right ways, it would work. It would not surprise me at all if that film had at least some influence over someone like Joss Whedon, who more or less mastered that form of entertainment a decade later.
I wouldn't say that the Willow series is "perfect" or anything. But I do think it succeeds at hitting the same kind of feel that the film had, and does tells a pretty decent story along the way too. I mean, it's not like Bavmorda wasn't basically a cliche'd villian in the film, right? The series expands on the world we saw in Willow, and IMO does a pretty darn good job of doing so.
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2023-02-22, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Willow on Disney+
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