OneD&D UA - THE CLERIC AND REVISED SPECIES

[Mastikator]

This is true, but guidance does not apply.

Yes, you're right. Persuasion and deception checks won't get that bonus. There are a lot of other skills though, having a +1d4 on all 16/18 skills is still broken. Remember we're also talking about acrobatics checks to not fall down a ledge, athletics checks to bust open a door, thief's tools check to pick a lock, performance checks to dance. Everything.

[stoutstien]

It just shouldn't be an ability. Or if it is, it needs to be high level and limited. Things like Guidance are why the default DCs math is too high. And that's a problem, because it means you need a Cleric or go home.

Nah. Just rework to not mess with the base math. Like reaction to treat any d20 roll of X or lower as Y or only allow it to cancel disadvantage. Limit it to 1-2 a SR and it's a handy feature that doesn't effect the max value(s).

[Tanarii]

Nah. Just rework to not mess with the base math. Like reaction to treat any d20 roll of X or lower as Y or only allow it to cancel disadvantage. Limit it to 1-2 a SR and it's a handy feature that doesn't effect the max value(s).

Limit it is the key. It can actually be fairly powerful in that case. Either as a spell or feature.

[stoutstien]

Limit it is the key. It can actually be fairly powerful in that case. Either as a spell or feature.

True. Limits are easier to apply when it's not a spell(cantrip) and spellcasting is already bloated.

I personally am of the mind that divine magic should be completed separate from arcane other than very specific cases.

[Tanarii]

True. Limits are easier to apply when it's not a spell(cantrip) and spellcasting is already bloated.

I personally am of the mind that divine magic should be completed separate from arcane other than very specific cases.

Really it's a case of do you want this (magical) limited thing to be available to multiple class spell lists, or with D&Done a shared class list for multiple classes, and do you want it to be yoinkable by other class specials that yoink spells?

Or is it (a magical) something that should be limited to the one class?

(They really need a shared non-magical resource system that uses the same logic.)

Example:
Greenflame and Booming Blade should never have been cantrip. They should have been a bladesinger class feature.

[Sorinth]

Your NPCs must always be incredibly suspicious. Again, I agree with you, this makes sense sometimes, but not all the time. Not all NPCs are expected to know what a spell looks like. Not all NPCs are extremely suspicious.

Aside from making their own Arcana/Insight checks, they have no way of knowing what kind of influence you had, if any. Honestly, I’d think they were more concerned with the other person that’s actively attempting to intimidate/deceive/persuade/investigate/etc. them in the first place.

Not at all but casting a spell as part of a conversation is going to get a reaction just like drawing your sword will get a reaction.

[animorte]

It just shouldn't be an ability. Or if it is, it needs to be high level and limited. Things like Guidance are why the default DCs math is too high. And that's a problem, because it means you need a Cleric or go home.

I don’t know if that’s strictly the reason for higher DCs, just because Expert is a group now and the overlap of skill proficiency accessibility is more prominent. I can definitely let see this concern though.

Any sane NPC is going to be suspicious of what unknown spell was just cast around them, if not outright hostile.

If recognizing a spell cast, or maybe even style of spell (divine or arcane), was possible PHB it might be different. If the DM allows any and all NPCs to use e Xan optional rule to identify spells being cast and they successfully identify it, it might be different. But otherwise an NPC that doesn't get suspicious is incredibly trusting.

And casting Guidance in the middle of any kind of negotiation should be considered a hostile act, if successfully identified.

So basically what I’m getting from multiple sources is that every NPC (of sound mind) is always assuming and enacting hostility, by default.

In my experience, some NPCs sometimes are actually nice. Some you may have a history with. Some may not have any idea what any sort of spell-casting is supposed to look like.

Not at all but casting a spell as part of a conversation is going to get a reaction just like drawing your sword will get a reaction.

One of those is obviously hostile, while the other is… not. (Though, I agree, it can be.)

Why, by default, should every single NPC automatically assume hostility when they happen to be near a spell being cast even if they have absolutely no idea what it is?

Maybe it’s just because I’ve had little sleep, but this is coming across as a bit extreme.

Remember we're also talking about acrobatics checks to not fall down a ledge, athletics checks to bust open a door, thief's tools check to pick a lock, performance checks to dance. Everything.

Absolutely. I would also like to take into account the limited range in the spells, and you still only have one reaction, so it can’t apply to everybody all the time, especially oneself. I don’t think it’s necessarily broken, but it is strong.

[Psyren]

I do believe that is certainly a possibility that would occur sometimes, but definitely not so consistently that every NPC reacts this way.

The point is that it's not truly "Proficiency+ in everything!" as was mentioned. The scenarios in which its useful are indeed affected by it being a noticeable verbal spell, at-will or not. And that's putting aside that at low levels, proficiency alone doesn't matter nearly as much as ability scores and circumstance. Even if you could Guidance your way through a stealth challenge for instance, your cleric with 14 Dex and scale mail is still going to be a poor choice for scout. (Obviously the Druid and Ranger will fare much better, barring the first issue, but they're both supposed to be good if not great scouts so that's okay.)

Moreover, while it's definitely useful when used on yourself, using it on someone else is now much harder. If you want to try and guidance that rogue who is disarming a trap for example, now you'll need to be standing in the blast radius with them, with no guarantee that a 1d4 will even help. That will make the spell much less of a no-brainer than it is now.

{Resistance is} functionally a +1d4 on all your saves

Once per round, and you can't use your reaction on anything else. That's useful - vastly more useful than the original - but has a tangible cost. That's really all these spells need.

[animorte]

Moreover, while it's definitely useful when used on yourself, using it on someone else is now much harder. If you want to try and guidance that rogue who is disarming a trap for example, now you'll need to be standing in the blast radius with them, with no guarantee that a 1d4 will even help. That will make the spell much less of a no-brainer than it is now.

Once per round, and you can't use your reaction on anything else. That's useful - vastly more useful than the original - but has a tangible cost. That's really all these spells need.

And all of that is exactly why I don’t think it’s too strong.

[Jakinbandw]

Also no more precasting guidance, then walking up to someone and making a deception check.

[Unoriginal]

In my experience, some NPCs sometimes are actually nice.

That has nothing to do with being nice or not. Being nice doesn't stop you from getting hit by a Fireball or mind-controlled.

Some you may have a history with.

I'll grant you that this can get you a pass. If you're a trusted person, they may not react in fear, but people are unlikely to not at least ask what you did once you're done.

Some may not have any idea what any sort of spell-casting is supposed to look like

In most D&D worlds? Basically all sapient species know what a spell is supposed to look like.

Even if they somehow have never witnessed magic or heard others talk about it, your interlocutor stopping talking with you to do a series of specific, deliberate sounds and movement is going to result in questions. And if you lie about it they may realize you are lying.

Why, by default, should every single NPC automatically assume hostility when they happen to be near a spell being cast even if they have absolutely no idea what it is?

Yes, if they don't think they know what the caster is doing.

Casting a spell without warning is the equivalent of pulling out a gun and waving it around.

[Mastikator]

Absolutely. I would also like to take into account the limited range in the spells, and you still only have one reaction, so it can’t apply to everybody all the time, especially oneself. I don’t think it’s necessarily broken, but it is strong.

Even if you only ever use it on yourself and nobody else it's still overpowered.

Limiting it to only other creatures with range may help a bit though. But 10 feet is still long enough

[Kane0]

Guidance could have just been a feature that lets you take the Help action when you otherwise wouldnt be able to (such as by lacking the proficiency)

[stoutstien]

Guidance could have just been a feature that lets you take the Help action when you otherwise wouldnt be able to (such as by lacking the proficiency)

I already use that for my 1/2+ caster bard homebrew.

[animorte]

Casting a spell without warning is the equivalent of pulling out a gun and waving it around.

You have a lot of good points but I will never be able to agree with this as it continues to be put. Many spells can be helpful, many spells can be flashy, many spells can be silly, and many spells can be dangerous.

I continue to agree that it is the case sometimes, maybe even more-often-than-not, but I will never be convinced that it is always perceived as so overwhelmingly aggressive as it is repeatedly being framed (waving a gun in somebody’s face).

Every NPC should not treat every instance of the possibility of a spell as if their life is in danger. It’s that simple. Sure, some people might be suspicious of that weird thing you did, and some might not.

But… I’ve been alone on the top of my little hill multiple times before where others just seem to think the topic is black/white with absolutely no middle ground.

[Kane0]

I already use that for my 1/2+ caster bard homebrew.

In addition to Bardic Inspiration?

Every NPC should not treat every instance of the possibility of a spell as if their life is in danger. It’s that simple. Sure, some people might be suspicious of that weird thing you did, and some might not.

But… I’ve been alone on the top of my little hill multiple times before where others just seem to think the topic is black/white with absolutely no middle ground.

I hate the Xans spell ID rule, but Guidance still has V and S components to handle. In my theatre of the mind it would be something along the lines of the priest raising a hand and announcing 'Praise the sun!' or something similar.
In stealthy situations this is not going to help anyone, unless youre specifically doing it as a distraction.
In social situations it might be fine if the others acknowledge/respect the same deity and might even respond in kind, but you run the risk of someone figuring youre attempting to 'shift the balance of power' in the conversation and respond accordingly, or just getting annoyed by your interjection.
In exploration situations, no problem at all. Toss out your prayer as much as you want unless your party threatens to gag you.
In combat, the tradeoff isnt in the components but in the reaction, range and likelihood of an ability check coming up versus a save (resistance), opp attack, counterspell, etc.

[Psyren]

Even if you only ever use it on yourself and nobody else it's still overpowered.

It's really not.

You have a lot of good points but I will never be able to agree with this as it continues to be put. Many spells can be helpful, many spells can be flashy, many spells can be silly, and many spells can be dangerous.

I continue to agree that it is the case sometimes, maybe even more-often-than-not, but I will never be convinced that it is always perceived as so overwhelmingly aggressive as it is repeatedly being framed (waving a gun in somebody’s face).

Every NPC should not treat every instance of the possibility of a spell as if their life is in danger. It’s that simple. Sure, some people might be suspicious of that weird thing you did, and some might not.

But… I’ve been alone on the top of my little hill multiple times before where others just seem to think the topic is black/white with absolutely no middle ground.

I completely agree there are times you can get away with doing a guidance mid-convo, but the player often won't know when those times are. That's all that's needed to curtail the problem they were seemingly trying to solve - constant guidance spam every few minutes at the table.

[animorte]

I hate the Xans spell ID rule, but Guidance still has V and S components to handle. In my theatre of the mind it would be something along the lines of the priest raising a hand and announcing 'Praise the sun!' or something similar.

That’s a good example. Everybody’s verbal and somatic components are expected to be different.

In stealthy situations this is not going to help anyone, unless youre specifically doing it as a distraction.
In social situations it might be fine if the others acknowledge/respect the same deity and might even respond in kind, but you run the risk of someone figuring youre attempting to 'shift the balance of power' in the conversation and respond accordingly, or just getting annoyed by your interjection.
In exploration situations, no problem at all. Toss out your prayer as much as you want unless your party threatens to gag you.
In combat, the tradeoff isnt in the components but in the reaction, range and likelihood of an ability check coming up versus a save (resistance), opp attack, counterspell, etc.

Good points, all. Thank you.

I completely agree there are times you can get away with doing a guidance mid-convo, but the player often won't know when those times are. That's all that's needed to curtail the problem they were seemingly trying to solve - constant guidance spam every few minutes at the table.

That’s a good point, and if it’s being abused or just downright annoying, there’s nothing wrong with addressing it creatively, I think.

[LudicSavant]

1D&D Resistance is a powerful cantrip. It would be powerful even if its range was self-only, let alone 10 feet.

You generally won't use it (and therefore your Reaction) unless you already failed a saving throw by 4 or less. At which point, it'll give a substantial chance of converting a failed save into a successful save as a Reaction (25% chance if you miss by 4, 50% chance if you miss by 3, 75% chance if you miss by 2, and 100% chance if you miss by 1). And given how debilitating failed saves can be, that equation's often going to be well worth it.

It's only a slightly smaller saving throw bonus than the War Wizard 2 Reaction feature, and that one was self-only and prevented you from using leveled spells on your next turn.

Resistance has no such consideration. It's basically just a boring auto-take option that buffs casters (and 1-level cleric dips) and makes you generically better than not having the option. It might even be less interesting than Silvery Barbs.

[Kane0]

1D&D Resistance is a powerful cantrip. It would be powerful even if its range was self-only, let alone 10 feet.

You generally won't use it (and therefore your Reaction) unless you already failed a saving throw by 4 or less. At which point, it'll give a substantial chance of converting a failed save into a successful save as a Reaction (25% chance if you miss by 4, 50% chance if you miss by 3, 75% chance if you miss by 2, and 100% chance if you miss by 1). And given how debilitating failed saves can be, that equation's often going to be well worth it.

It's only a slightly smaller saving throw bonus than the War Wizard 2 Reaction feature, and that one was self-only and prevented you from using leveled spells on your next turn.

Resistance has no such consideration. It's basically just a boring auto-take option that buffs casters (and 1-level cleric dips) and makes you generically better than not having the option. It might even be less interesting than Silvery Barbs.

Perhaps if anyone with a shield could also use their reaction to add their shield's AC bonus to a Dex save

[stoutstien]

In addition to Bardic Inspiration?

Closer to a modified version of it. This version of Bards make extensive use of the help action and can do so with any action (action, bonus action, reaction). They have limit per round but eventually they could just do a triple help if they wanted to.
Each version has the opportunity to be enhanced by the bard depending on subclass (acting similar to the printed version though flat bonus dice to D20s are practically removed. Some fun options exist like recycling spell slots)

For example one college can target an ally within 30 ft with a bonus action help. That ally in turn can target a different ally(5ft limit) with a bonus action help on their turn. This can chain to a growing number of targets as the bard levels up and later on get growing effects per link.

[Psyren]

You might not be able to use Resistance even if a suitable saving throw failure presents itself though - say, if you already used your reaction on an OA, or to counterspell something, or on Shield, or a readied action etc. I agree that this is a clear buff and more options are good, but I don't see it as a problem.

[diplomancer]

A spell to make something or someone more persuasive is literally what advertising is (and if you think I'm exaggerating, meditate for a while on the words "spell" and "glamour")... I wonder if some people here go about attacking billboards for "using subterfuge to influence their decisions".

[Psyren]

A spell to make something or someone more persuasive is literally what advertising is (and if you think I'm exaggerating, meditate for a while on the words "spell" and "glamour")... I wonder if some people here go about attacking billboards for "using subterfuge to influence their decisions".

Most people don't attack billboards, but its reasonable to expect they'd react negatively if someone put a billboard right in front of their faces mid-conversation.

[diplomancer]

Most people don't attack billboards, but its reasonable to expect they'd react negatively if someone put a billboard right in front of their faces mid-conversation.

And yet those car sellers who have good sales techniques still get better results than those who don't...

But my main point is: in a world with magic, Guidance, at least when properly identified as Guidance, should not be viewed with more suspicion than Expertise in Persuasion (or Bardic Inspiration, for that matter, to use an example even closer to advertising. Vanilla Bardic Inspiration is not magical at all).

[sambojin]

New Resistance and Guidance are strong. But they're also pretty common. It's not like it's just Clerics that can get them.

Rangers can. Druids can. There's a pretty good chance Paladins will be able to. Anyone that takes Magic Initiative (either Divine or Primal) can. Ardlings can. Wood Elves probably will be able to.

Then there's Expertise, Bardic Inspiration, Enhance Ability, Bless, Pally aura, and everything else.

While the DCs of skills are a bit weird, it's not like it's a one-class problem/ solution here. These cantrips are on 2-out-of-3 spell lists, and these characters can change their cantrips and spells each day. I think it's kind of assumed that there'll be some skill/ save enablers sprinkled throughout most parties in 1dnd if you want them to be.

(Having "stuff happen" is probably almost as common as the Help action. Guidance being cast, or a Bard Inspiring, is probably like two people with persuasion trying to talk you into something. However you'd react to two smooth talkers, one helping the other, is probably how you'd react to magical help (unless you personally or culturally disliked or didn't trust magic). Some people dislike con artists, some people just see it as per pressure, others like "going along with a plan". There may be a bit more anti-magic sentiment, but with how often it probably happens in DnD worlds, it's probably just looked at as super-peer-pressure or going from smooth talker to a bit of a con artist. And people deal with that kind of stuff irl and probably in dnd-life all the time without reacting violently. You might not trust them doing it again though, and start to suspect their motives for all kinds of stuff where you normally wouldn't have if there was no magic cast.
Then again, a party of murder-hobos did just turn up in town. They might be pretty suspicious of you anyway (or see you as saviours, or the king's helpers/ enforcers, or whatever)).

[animorte]

"using subterfuge to influence their decisions".

Hilarious

But my main point is: in a world with magic, Guidance, at least when properly identified as Guidance, should not be viewed with more suspicion than Expertise in Persuasion (or Bardic Inspiration, for that matter, to use an example even closer to advertising. Vanilla Bardic Inspiration is not magical at all).

This. Yes, all of which should similarly be recognized for what they are.

[Kane0]

Like an ad for Raid Shadow Legends in the middle of a youtube video. Imagine responding well to that

[animorte]

Like an ad for Raid Shadow Legends in the middle of a youtube video. Imagine responding well to that

Definitely relatable. I imagine most people just roll their eyes by now.

[Tanarii]

And yet those car sellers who have good sales techniques still get better results than those who don't...

But my main point is: in a world with magic, Guidance, at least when properly identified as Guidance, should not be viewed with more suspicion than Expertise in Persuasion (or Bardic Inspiration, for that matter, to use an example even closer to advertising. Vanilla Bardic Inspiration is not magical at all).

Considering how used car sellers and other such marketers are generally viewed, I feel that NPCs viewing any and all of the folks in game you're describing should be with distrust and suspicion is incredibly on point.