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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    I'm interested in starting work on a tier list for Pathfinder, in the same way that we have a tier list for 3.5 (link). This link is a collection of discussions about the power and versatility of all the base classes of 3.5 DnD, and it’s quite a useful resource. I think Pathfinder could do with a similar resource as a point of information and discussion.

    There has been an informal attempt to do a tier list for Pathfinder, which I've also used as part of the reference to this thread: (link). But this lacks discussion on the classes and a shared consensus on how scoring works, both of which are as important as the tier number itself.

    The current, work-in-progress thread for Pathfinder Tiers version of this thread is here (link). This thread has links to previous tiering threads and short summaries of thread discussions for those who missed them when they were posted. Contributions and votes for older threads are still welcome and your votes still count.

    This time, we’ll tier the Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch. For reference, in the informal thread:

    Arcanist is tiered at 1
    Oracle is tiered at 1.5
    Shaman is tiered at 1.25
    Witch is tiered at 1

    So, the questions are: what should each of these be tiered at? Are any of these options notably more or less powerful than the rest? And are there any notable archetypes for these classes that deserve separate tiering? I guess a discussion thread is the way to find out.




    What are the tiers?


    The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

    A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

    Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

    Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of Clerics, Druids, and Wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

    Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the Sorcerer and Chained Summoner level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

    Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a Bard, Skald, Unchained Summoner and Inquisitor. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

    Tier four: Here we're in Fighter and Barbarian territory. Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

    Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of chained Monk, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an Aristocrat or a Commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

    Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Arcanist and witch: T1
    prepared fullcasters from very broad arcane lists, clearly T1. witch trades out some of the wizard repertoire for a bunch of spells from divine lists, arcanist is a bit weird in preparing spells known each day. Nothing interferes with the standard T1 definition, they can solve any problem and do anything if they prepared for it that day.

    Oracle: T2
    spontaneous cleric casting, but with other class features! this should be the new T2 yardstick in both description and design, because the oracle class is inherently flexible across builds but can't rebuild every day like a prepared caster.

    Shaman: T0.75
    Shaman is a cleric with a mostly worse list in most ways. With that you'd think it would be a contender for worst T1 verging on high T2, except spirits are good, hexes are nice, and wandering spirit/wandering hex is stupidly good. Changing out a small section of your talent selections and extra spells known would be good enough, but some of those spirits are insane. Take lore spirit: prepare a handful of any wizard spells you want every day which verges on "prepare spells daily from the entire wizard list" levels of good - and you can just pick something else tomorrow! You can't hit true schrodinger wizard capability inside the day, but you can prepare literally any wizard spell and be a ripoff wizard with an infinite spellbook.

    Unsworn shaman: T0.5
    shaman, but even more flexibility. This is peak prepared: an unsworn shaman does not make any permanent choices - every class feature becomes a daily selection of whatever you feel like that day. Alone this would be fantastic, but unsworn's hex selections are also all daily selections! So now when you're done crafting the big 6 for your party you can switch it out for craft potion to burn more downtime, or back to flight or evil eye on adventuring days. Want a different spirit bonus? change it any morning! including some extra saucy options like getting a fresh animal companion, chosen anew every morning. that's some gross stuff.
    unsworn is a really stupid upgrade in flexibility with no lost features, it just delays your second spirit slightly. obscenely powerful, very clunky, and needs to be piloted very well to actually pull any of this off properly.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Arcanist is definitely tier 1, while the slower spell progression hurts, it's got the best casting mechanic. Few things quite say Tier 1 like Quick Study just pulling whatever spell you need out. At even levels it's arguably a better wizard, at odd levels it's obviously worse.
    1.1, a little below wizard to account for those even levels, but still close.

    Oracle is Tier 2, for much the same reason as sorcerer really, strong class features paired with spontaneous 9th level casting. The list is substantially worse than the sorcerer's, and definitely designed with cleric style prepaared access in mind, but there's good enough spells to still be tier 2.
    2.0, a fair bit below sorcerer.

    Witch has a worse spell list than a wizard, with a lot less utility and buffing, but does have some very nice debuffs like Ill Omen and of course the hexes are very strong, well the good ones anyway, At-Will save or lose, some utility, buffs, debuffs. The right Patron can get you some of the big spells you're missing.
    Tier 1.3, prepared casting with some solid class features.

    Shaman is very similar to Witch, good prepared casting mechanic, hexes and a somewhat weaker spell list than other full casters. The main difference is that with the right, admittedly quite MAD, build you can be getting your pick of sorcerer/wizard spells each day and they can grab cleric spells as a favoured class bonus, so they're really good at expanding the list.
    It's only a few spells each day, a much weaker base list, and Arcane Enlightenment means you need int and cha on top of your wis, it sounds good in theory, but you're not actually going to oudo the wizard who potentially has his entire list to pick from (and functionally has most of the actually good spells) every day and can easily just fill an empty slot later.
    It's really not much better than Paragon Surge+Emergency attunement to grab spells known on a sorcerer.
    Tier 1.3 normally, Tier 1.1 with wandering arcane enlightenment hex to grab a few sorcerer/wizard spells each day
    Last edited by Thunder999; 2022-12-02 at 08:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    As I said in an earlier thread:
    Arcanist: Tier 1.0
    Witch: Tier 1.1
    Shaman: Tier 1.4

    I’ve heard it argued that the Shaman spell list doesn’t have enough good spells to be Tier 1. I think there are enough to be more versatile than a baseline spontaneous caster. The base Shaman spell list is probably outshone by a Sorcerer with +17 spells known from FCB. But if we’re counting FCB, the Shaman can get spells from the Cleric list (half-elf, half-orc, human), spells from the Druid list (gathlain, ghoran, grippli, vine leshy), spells from the Psychic spell list (shabti), or Enchantment spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (kitsune).

    Arcane Enlightenment is nice, but then again, as a divine caster, you have access to Dreamed Secrets anyway. Arcane Enlightenment comes online at 6th level, and Dreamed Secrets at 7th, so not much of a difference.

    As an anecdote, the only time I built a Shaman, I went with Ancestral Speaker, for theme, so I didn’t even have access to Wandering Spirit or Wandering Hex. I took Arcane Enlightenment anyway, even though I was locked into the same spell selection every day. I only had the ability scores to manage a single 1st-level spell. I went with Blood Money, also for theme.

    For oracle, I think I’ll go with 2.2.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Arcanist: Tier 1 all the way here.
    Shaman: Not sure. I want to say tier 2, but some builds can get it up to tier 1. It has a lower floor than most divine castors.
    Oracle: Tier 2. The sorcerer of Divine Casting.
    Witch: Tier 1.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Vote Update:

    Arcanist
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Maat Mons, Vasilidor – 1

    Average – 1



    Witch
    Exelsisxax, Vasilidor – 1
    Maat Mons – 1.1
    Thunder999 – 1.3

    Average – 1.13



    Oracle
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Vasilidor – 2
    Maat Mons – 2.2

    Average – 2.05



    Shaman
    Exelsisxax – 0.75
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4

    Average – 1.15



    Shaman (Unsworn Archetype)
    Exelsisxax – 0.5
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4

    Average – 1.06

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Arcanist is a wizard/sorcerer hybrid, so it makes sense to tier it right between those two other classes. Compared to a wizard, it has a number of tradeoffs, such as less spells per day but flexible casting; and no arcane school but a good DC boost numerous times per day. I'd call this a draw, except that arcanist gets each spell level one level later than wizard. Being one spell level behind for roughly 40% of the game is a notable drawback; so I'd place him at Tier 1.5. Note that the wizard archetype Exploiter is, in practice, a better arcanist than the arcanist.

    Oracle is the spontaneous divine caster; a sorcerer with the cleric's spell list. It also gets revelation powers that are thematic, but less powerful than cleric domains or wizard schools; and a mandatory drawback in the form of a curse. As noted in threads on the cleric and warpriest, the downside is that the cleric list is noticeably weaker than the wizard list, and in particular pretty bad at low levels. Overall, a solid class but not quite as good a sorcerer, so Tier 2.5.

    Witch is a popular caster that has less spells per day in exchange for infinite-use hexes. It should be obvious that spells are stronger than hexes; that's why you get limited spells and unlimited hexes - e.g. the Evil Eye hex (one target gets -4 to hit) is weaker than multitarget debuffs like Glitterdust or Slow. However, the witch spell list is markedly weaker than the wizard's; the combo of less spells per day and weaker spell list and weaker-than-spell hexes is a downgrade compared to a wizard.
    The most popular hexes (Evil Eye and Slumber) are mind-affecting, a common immunity. Aside from that, wizards and sorcerers have crappy defenses, and need spells like Mirror Image or Stoneskin to compensate - and the witch doesn't get these, making the class decidedly squishy. Overall, witches are good but clearly no match for a wizard or sorcerer, making them Tier 2.
    In practice, the witch attracts players that like unlimited-use abilities (because otherwise, why play one?), so a common playstyle is to ignore spells and rely almost exclusively on hexes. Such witches spend most combats using only Evil Eye and Cackle, and this playstyle is at least a tier lower. It's unfortunate that what attracts players to the witch is not what makes the class good.

    Notable archetype: the White-Haired Witch has no hexes and uses hair as a reach melee weapon, but still has lousy AC, HP, and BAB, and the aforementioned lack of defense spells. This is a pretty ineffective way to create a frontliner, and should be considered tier 3, or frankly even lower if it uses standard actions on its hair-based melee attacks.

    Finally, Shaman is a rarely-played hybrid that combines the witch's hexes (but doesn't get the more powerful Major Hexes) with a watered-down version of the cleric spell list (which was not the strongest list in the first place) and some flavorful but not very impressive familiar abilities. This ends up as clearly the weakest of all 9-level casters; I'd rate it Tier 2.5 but it arguably deserves to be lower. (edit) except if you poach spells from other lists, in which case see below.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2022-12-03 at 05:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    Take lore spirit: prepare a handful of any wizard spells you want every day which verges on "prepare spells daily from the entire wizard list" levels of good
    That's certainly a good trick, but this should really be rated separately. The lore spirit is not an example of a spirit that has such tricks, but literally the only spirit that does that.

    In addition, lore spirit gives you a number of spells based on charisma, if you have the minimum intelligence for the spell on a wisdom-based caster. This is very awkwardly MAD, and not nearly as impressive in practice as in theory. And, well, if you want to be able to take your pick of wizard spells each day, why not play a wizard in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    if we’re counting FCB, the Shaman can get spells from the Cleric list (half-elf, half-orc, human), spells from the Druid list (gathlain, ghoran, grippli, vine leshy), spells from the Psychic spell list (shabti), or Enchantment spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (kitsune).
    Yes, and since these are all races, any individual shaman can get only one of those. But if you want spells from the druid list, why not just play a druid? The pattern I'm seeing is that shaman needs to poach spells from other lists to be good; and that is not a good sign for the baseline shaman.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    A Shaman actually using a Shamans ability to grab spells from other lists, such as a Lore Wandering Spirit (Arcane Enlightenment), certainly deserves a Tier 1 rating. Whether 1 or 1.5 I do not care. But it certainly fulfills the T 1 criteria - it can have any tool needed for any job.

    There's one argument to be made for rating the Lore seperately - the need for Charisma and Intelligence to make it work.
    But in effect, that means that you progress your Wisdom a bit slower to get Headbands that also boost one or both of those stats, and are either fine with lower-level spells (which are often still perfectly fine for problem solving) or lower Charisma (which means weaker Hex-DCs but that can be fine).

    That is certainly important to keep in mind, since it heavily screws over the Shaman with lower point-buys. But it is a capability the Shaman has.

    So a Shaman using a (Wandering) Lore Spirit is certainly Tier 1 or 1.5. They may have somewhat worse stats compared to e.g. a Cleric, but they have a greater variety of spells. And if you rate the Cleric at that tier, the Shaman certainly deserves that rating.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    As I said in an earlier thread:
    Arcanist: Tier 1.0
    Witch: Tier 1.1
    Shaman: Tier 1.4

    I’ve heard it argued that the Shaman spell list doesn’t have enough good spells to be Tier 1. I think there are enough to be more versatile than a baseline spontaneous caster. The base Shaman spell list is probably outshone by a Sorcerer with +17 spells known from FCB. But if we’re counting FCB, the Shaman can get spells from the Cleric list (half-elf, half-orc, human), spells from the Druid list (gathlain, ghoran, grippli, vine leshy), spells from the Psychic spell list (shabti), or Enchantment spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list (kitsune).

    Arcane Enlightenment is nice, but then again, as a divine caster, you have access to Dreamed Secrets anyway. Arcane Enlightenment comes online at 6th level, and Dreamed Secrets at 7th, so not much of a difference.

    As an anecdote, the only time I built a Shaman, I went with Ancestral Speaker, for theme, so I didn’t even have access to Wandering Spirit or Wandering Hex. I took Arcane Enlightenment anyway, even though I was locked into the same spell selection every day. I only had the ability scores to manage a single 1st-level spell. I went with Blood Money, also for theme.

    For oracle, I think I’ll go with 2.2.
    You appear to misunderstand the things dreamed secrets can actually do. It cannot provide any caster with any spells outside their existing list, making it virtually useless for divine prepared casters (as they cannot prepare spells during the day) and just 2 lower-level swappable spells know for spontaneous casters from a subset of their existing list.
    Relevant FAQ thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r93x&p...w-Spells-Known
    Yeah, it kind of sucks once interpreted how the spell rules actually work rather than what I can only presume to be the author's intent. This is the same reason that paragon surge arcane eldritch heritage is mostly crap.

    Lore spirit is dramatically far and away superior. It remains one of the only ways of poaching spells flexibly, because it explicitly does add them.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Vote Update:

    Arcanist
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Maat Mons, Vasilidor – 1
    Kurald Galain – 1.5

    Average – 1



    Oracle
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Vasilidor – 2
    Maat Mons – 2.2
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 2.14



    Shaman
    Exelsisxax – 0.75
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 1.49



    Shaman (Unsworn Archetype)
    Exelsisxax – 0.5
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 1.42



    Witch
    Exelsisxax, Vasilidor – 1
    Maat Mons – 1.1
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Kurald Galain – 2

    Average – 1.28

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by exelsisxax View Post
    You appear to misunderstand the things dreamed secrets can actually do. It cannot provide any caster with any spells outside their existing list,
    It's overall much more likely that a GM will let you cast wizard spells with Dreamed Secrets (because that's what the feat is for, and that's what Paizo's designer suggests in the thread you've linked) then that you'll get high enough int/cha scores to get a meaningful amount of extra spells out of Lore Spirit (standard point buy is 15, good luck with that). The former is practical gameplay, the latter is a schrodinger build.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    I had a private complaint about the votes outside of the 1-6 scale for Shaman. I’m inclined to agree – the voting scale was created years before the Pathfinder tiering project and these set of threads have been set up based on that scale. Even if we had a class that everyone accepted was better than Pathfinder Wizard, they would both still fundamentally be the same in being able to “solve nearly all problems”.

    I’ve thus adjusted the two votes that were less than 1 for the Shaman class so that they’re 1. Apologies to Exelsisxax for this. After the vote change and adding my vote, Shaman is still at the bottom of Tier 1, so nothing has really changed.

    Vote Update:

    Arcanist
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Maat Mons, Vasilidor – 1
    Kurald Galain – 1.5

    Average – 1.1



    Oracle
    Exelsisxax, Thunder999, Vasilidor – 2
    Maat Mons – 2.2
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 2.14



    Shaman
    Exelsisxax – 1
    Pabelfly – 1.2
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 1.55



    Shaman (Lore Spirit)
    Exelsisxax, Serafina, Pabelfly – 1
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 1.36

    Shaman (Unsworn Archetype)
    Exelsisxax, Pabelfly – 1
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Maat Mons – 1.4
    Kurald Galain – 2.5

    Average – 1.44



    Witch
    Exelsisxax, Vasilidor – 1
    Maat Mons – 1.1
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Kurald Galain – 2

    Average – 1.28

    White-Haired Witch
    Exelsisxax, Vasilidor – 1
    Maat Mons – 1.1
    Thunder999 – 1.3
    Kurald Galain – 3

    Average – 1.48

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    I am curious what are peoples opinion of Unlettered Arcanist (aka the Arcanist / witch hybrid which uses the witch spell list, does not get hexes, for it keeps the Arcanist exploits.)

    Tier 1 still or something between 1 and 2?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2022-12-05 at 04:54 PM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am curious what are peoples opinion of Unlettered Arcanist (aka the Arcanist / witch hybrid which uses the witch spell list, does not get hexes, for it keeps the Arcanist exploits.)

    Tier 1 still or something between 1 and 2?
    It's definitely a downgrade (given that the Witch spell list is weaker than the Sor/Wiz list, and Exploits are weaker than Hexes), but not a full tier.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Unlettered Arcanist is without question the worst prepared 9th level caster in the game, it's got a relatively weak spell list, the worst possible BAB, worst possible HD, slow spell progression, not that great class features (quick study is only as good as your spellbook, and the witch list isn't nearly so filled with niche instant solutions as the wizard one, potent magic is also only as good as the spells your boosting the DC or CL of and they're the two big exploits, still not bad, but not nearly as good as Hexes, Animal Companions or the really good domain powers, school powers and bloodlines).

    If any prepared caster is tier 2 it's Unlettered Arcanist.

    Normal Arcanist, much like the Wizard and Sorcerer, gets a lot of its power from the fact that the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is the best in the game.
    Last edited by Thunder999; 2022-12-05 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Exploits are weaker than Hexes
    I'd say exploits are stronger than hexes, and the reason is action economy. A hex is something you do instead of a spell, whereas numerous good exploits can be used in addition to a spell. The arcanist can teleport as part of a move action, counterspell as an immediate (without having to ready it first), and boost his spell DC as a free action.

    (to be fair, arcanist has a number of "direct damage" exploits, all of which are rather ineffective)

    Spell with exploit > spell > hex > direct damage exploit.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I'd say exploits are stronger than hexes, and the reason is action economy. A hex is something you do instead of a spell, whereas numerous good exploits can be used in addition to a spell. The arcanist can teleport as part of a move action, counterspell as an immediate (without having to ready it first), and boost his spell DC as a free action.

    (to be fair, arcanist has a number of "direct damage" exploits, all of which are rather ineffective)

    Spell with exploit > spell > hex > direct damage exploit.
    I don't think action economy matters that much when many witch hexes are long-game things that can seemingly compete with any spell that doesn't include Miracle, Wish, or Demiplane in its name. Witch hexes seem like Paizo's attempt to replicate spirit binding from 3.5e like psychic magic is Paizo's attempt to replicate psionics (complete with various sorts of powers and point pools.) Most arcanist exploits can be replicated by other features such as oracle revelations, sorcerer bloodlines, races, and feats, so it seems more viable to play a class with a better spell list if you're giving up witch hexes, which are the only thing that I think makes witches and many archetypes that get hexes such as spirit guide oracles and pact wizards tier 1 at all to begin with. In fact, going for hexes and a better spell list is a no-brainer. I think shaman is generally rated above witch because they get hexes and they get a better spell list.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    It's definitely a downgrade (given that the Witch spell list is weaker than the Sor/Wiz list, and Exploits are weaker than Hexes), but not a full tier.
    I think the unlettered arcanist is worse than the sorcerer, way worse than the oracle, and possibly even worse than some 6th-level casters like the occultist (the occultist effectively has 9th-level spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities that are probably better than anything on the witch list once you remove their hexes and patron and archetype spells) because the witch spell list is such a downgrade. The sorcerer is spontaneous, but between being able to pack their list full of Anyspells that aren't even on the witch list, their bloodlines, and some of the archetypes, they would be able to completely outperform an unlettered arcanist any day, especially the good sorcerer bloodlines like Arcane, Psychic, Fey, and Efreeti.
    Last edited by Coeruleum; 2022-12-06 at 04:26 AM.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum View Post
    I don't think action economy matters that much when many witch hexes are long-game things that can seemingly compete with any spell
    It would help if you mention which hexes, specifically, you're talking about. The most popular ones in my area are Slumber, Evil Eye, Cackle, and Healing; none of which are "long-game things that can seemingly compete".
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It would help if you mention which hexes, specifically, you're talking about. The most popular ones in my area are Slumber, Evil Eye, Cackle, and Healing; none of which are "long-game things that can seemingly compete".
    Coven, Flight, Cauldron (only as prerequisite for some other hexes,) Cook People, and basically all of the grand hexes. The grand hexes basically function like 9th-level spells but without the limits. Hexes like Coven and Flight are basically a class feature. Things like Cook People won't be used by non-evil characters generally, and lots of long-game stuff probably won't function in Pathfinder Society play since that's basically just crawl into the dungeon with random strangers, hit things with your sword four times or throw fire at it, and leave. The debuffing hexes are your combat hexes and those are extremely important in a wargame and healing is important if you don't have a healer, but without being able to destroy the village with grand hexes I don't think the witch would even be tier 1, just a really good tier 2 specialized debuffer with some healing ability who is probably made irrelevant as soon as even the generally-considered-tier-2 sorcerer can cast Wish, Limited Wish, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Conjuration and those kinds of things while the witch only has Shadow Transmutation and Greater Shadow Transmutation on a non-gish and Create Demiplane, Greater/Lesser when the only real source of minions or followers for a witch is their hexes such as Coven, Charm, and Summon Spirit, or the same Leadership feat anyone else including wizards, sorcerers, and psychics who are better-poised to use it and can also cast Demiplane spells can get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Yes, and since these are all races, any individual shaman can get only one of those. But if you want spells from the druid list, why not just play a druid? The pattern I'm seeing is that shaman needs to poach spells from other lists to be good; and that is not a good sign for the baseline shaman.
    The baseline shaman is rather poorly-designed, but these threads are asking about strength, not how pristine or clunky it is. And playing a shaman over a druid makes a lot of sense if you want the spirit and the hexes more than you want wildshape and an animal companion, so it's mostly just wildshape. Lots of people would probably like to play a nature-based person who has a shtick other than turning into animals, but forcing people to play specific races to do that seems extremely clunky to me, just like the Paizo port of a telepath obligatorily being a shapeshifting fox person from East Asian mythology just so you can get passable DCs on your mind control, debuffs, and buffs.
    Last edited by Coeruleum; 2022-12-06 at 04:58 AM.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeruleum View Post
    Coven, Flight, Cauldron (only as prerequisite for some other hexes,) Cook People, and basically all of the grand hexes.
    While I agree with your point about grand hexes, I see that Coven takes a standard action and lasts one round; Flight takes a standard action and lasts one minute; and Cook People takes an hour to activate and lasts an hour. I don't really consider that long-term.

    I don't think the witch would even be tier 1, just a really good tier 2 specialized debuffer with some healing ability who is probably made irrelevant as soon as even the generally-considered-tier-2 sorcerer can cast Wish, Limited Wish, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Conjuration and those kinds of things
    I completely agree.

    And playing a shaman over a druid makes a lot of sense if you want the spirit and the hexes more than you want wildshape and an animal companion
    Unfortunately, shaman doesn't get major and grand hexes.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    While I agree with your point about grand hexes, I see that Coven takes a standard action and lasts one round; Flight takes a standard action and lasts one minute; and Cook People takes an hour to activate and lasts an hour. I don't really consider that long-term.
    Coven makes a permanent coven that you can engage with other witches, hags, and people who have used certain jank with to empower your hexes and spells. Flight is more important for the at-will Feather Fall and the static bonuses since that's basically kineticist, warlock, etc. level stuff and now you're basically immune to gravity as long as you can take mental actions. Being able to make potions and buffs with Cauldron, Cook People, and those kinds of hexes lets you play the long game as long as you can plan it out right and have ways to automate production even if you have to wait or speed it up.

    Unfortunately, shaman doesn't get major and grand hexes.
    Yes, but it gets to poach spells of pretty much whatever list it wants even if doing that is über jank. There are some sorcerer and oracle builds I might personally consider T1 and thus put the class as a whole at T1 even though I'm not voting on sorcerer right now. Shaman way outdoes that since it can just take spells from any list but it also has good features. I think that's extremely bad game design, which is why I mostly play 3.5e, but not low-powered by any means. Pretty much the same issues as how I think occultist is T2... taking things from other classes is jank and doesn't reflect well on game design, but doesn't mean you should rate the class by the weakest base version when that's not what people will be playing in practice. If I were to rate any sorcerer builds as T1 they'd also be jank that take things from other classes, and the faith and rebirth discipline psychics, especially with an archetype that's just a straight buff like formless adept, are arguably better than the oracle so I'd probably rate those as T1 but again only for the subclasses and archetypes that makes them the least like the base class. This seems like a Pathfinder game design issue in general to me.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    On the topic of the Oracle: we should have a separate rating for the Wolf-scarred Face curse (who gets 20% spell failure chance, a horrible drawback on any spellcaster), and the Site-Bound curse (who must stay within a couple thousand feet of one particular spot, FOREVER, or become nauseated and take con damage). I suggest the former is a full tier lower because of its high impractibility in combat; and rate the latter as tier 5 for being utterly unplayable (as your action radius is way too small even in a city campaign).

    Then for the Witch, I'd like to add Hagbound at the same rating as White-Haired Witch, i.e. losing your hexes in exchange for being a melee warrior with low BAB, low AC, and low hit points; simply a terrible idea. Then there is the Putrefactor, which loses most hexes in exchange for pretty bad abilities; the Havocker, which loses all hexes in exchange for mediocre at-will blasting; and the Ley Line Guardian, a spontaneous caster akin to the sorcerer. I welcome discussion which of these (if any) should be considered lower tier.

    Finally, the Shaman has the Primal Warden archetype... whenever he casts a spell from one of his bonus slots, it instead becomes a completely random spell of one level higher. This is not a tier change since you can just not use that, but the ability is so utterly bizarre (as well as useless) that I felt like mentioning it.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    On the topic of the Oracle: we should have a separate rating for the Wolf-scarred Face curse (who gets 20% spell failure chance, a horrible drawback on any spellcaster), and the Site-Bound curse (who must stay within a couple thousand feet of one particular spot, FOREVER, or become nauseated and take con damage). I suggest the former is a full tier lower because of its high impractibility in combat; and rate the latter as tier 5 for being utterly unplayable (as your action radius is way too small even in a city campaign).

    Then for the Witch, I'd like to add Hagbound at the same rating as White-Haired Witch, i.e. losing your hexes in exchange for being a melee warrior with low BAB, low AC, and low hit points; simply a terrible idea. Then there is the Putrefactor, which loses most hexes in exchange for pretty bad abilities; the Havocker, which loses all hexes in exchange for mediocre at-will blasting; and the Ley Line Guardian, a spontaneous caster akin to the sorcerer. I welcome discussion which of these (if any) should be considered lower tier.

    Finally, the Shaman has the Primal Warden archetype... whenever he casts a spell from one of his bonus slots, it instead becomes a completely random spell of one level higher. This is not a tier change since you can just not use that, but the ability is so utterly bizarre (as well as useless) that I felt like mentioning it.
    Hagbound does not trade away all your hexes, as you keep the ones at 6, 16 and 18. So technically speaking you can at least try to patch up your hex progression with feats. At any rate, you're trapped in the class until you either lose it or become a monster at 20 (I don't think you necessarily become an NPC, though). There's some weird language there, too, as it says "immunity to charm, fear, and spell effects" which is probably not meant in a literal sense. It's certainly more of an NPC archetype, though I'd rate it higher than White-Haired Witch, simply because the latter explicitly trades away the Hex class features in all forms and shapes and as such can't even be patched up anymore with Extra Hex. There might be a weird gish build possible with it, but on its own, White-Haired Witch is really weak.

    Primal Warden might actually warrant a much lower rating as well. Sure, there's the plain weird ability you mentioned (also very troublesome to use, jeez), but it offers some more sucktastic stuff with glorious RNG in case you want to interrupt the game's flow even more. First you lose two hexes and in their stead gain the ability to roll a die. A d4 until level 12 with a wonderful 25% chance to just inflict a -2 penalty to attacks/skills/saves, randomly enlarge or reduce by one size category, gain an enhancement bonus to land speed or a 20% miss chance (that one's actually decent I'd say). Later it's a d6 with the additional option to add a luck bonus to things, including AC which is rare or Haste. At level 12 I'd say it's a 50% chance to be decent, but before that it's a 75% to be irrelevant or a hindrance for your party and a dangerous chance to possibly buff an enemy. It's just bad on its own, costs you hexes and in addition you gain the privilege of "A primal warden shaman cannot select the chant hex, the evil eye hex, the misfortune hex, or any witch hexes.", which is to say no Slumber, Cackle or whatever for you. No extending Fortune either. You're stuck with a reduced hex list, reduced number of hexes, locked out of some of the best ones and get a cumbersome and mostly bad ability in return. I'd say together with the awkward unstable casting thing that's around a tier lower.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    At a guess I'd probably put those witch archetypes somewhere in tier 2.
    The spontaneous one is just the usual Sorcerer/Oracle setup, it's tier 2 because you don't get to change your spells daily, and have slower spell progression, but still have all the same actual spells you could know and the power that means.
    Witch isn't the best spell list, but I think it's good enough to be tier 2 even with bad class features, you still get to go arround save or lose-ing things, flying, teleporting, magic jar-ing etc. Might even still be bottom tier 1 since you've at least got the good spell progression and versatility of a prepared caster.

    Wolf scarred is probably tier 3, you can take Silent Spell, slap it on everything and be the game's only 8/9 caster.

    Site Bound is tier 6, literally unplayable as a PC, an option that solely exists for NPCs.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    I'd advocate for only Tiering an archetype separately if it's higher-tier than the baseline class.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Site-Bound Oracle is an NPC tool. It's an almost free +1 CL for many one-off encounters, and it supplies a ready excuse for why the high level resurrection provider won't solve the quest herself.
    Last edited by Bucky; 2022-12-06 at 04:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I'd advocate for only Tiering an archetype separately if it's higher-tier than the baseline class.
    Oh that is no fun 😆 Some of the other archetypes may lower the tier yet are still fun even if it’s a power decrease. Likewise it may fundamentally change the style of play. Yet people still want to play them.

    Other archetypes do the exact same thing but are not fun to play and there is nothing there to induce the desire to play them.

    Yet while I am disagreeing I hear you Maat for 80% of material is often not worth it / not fun to play, but 20% of it is interesting with the general now D&D 80-20 rule.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Oh that is no fun 😆 Some of the other archetypes may lower the tier yet are still fun even if it’s a power decrease. Likewise it may fundamentally change the style of play. Yet people still want to play them.

    Other archetypes do the exact same thing but are not fun to play and there is nothing there to induce the desire to play them.

    Yet while I am disagreeing I hear you Maat for 80% of material is often not worth it / not fun to play, but 20% of it is interesting with the general now D&D 80-20 rule.
    Im personally a fan of mixing garbage and cheese to try to come up with something playable and interesting mechanically without being too OP.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Arcanist, Oracle, Shaman and Witch

    Arcanist and Witch are clearly 1s, Oracle is staple T2.

    Shaman, tho, has a stupidly restricted spell list. I'd say it's the weakest T1, so something like 1.9.

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