Wild Mass Guessing on Saving The World

[zenfrodo]

Fairly new reader here. I'm loving OOTS! (I just wish the Giant would issue the print books as ebooks). As I've been reading and rereading, I've noticed something, a possible hint as to how the whole tangled mess is going to resolve itself.

Spoiler: Let the Wild Mass Guessing Begin!

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So far, we've been told that the gods need The Dark One (via Redcloak) to cooperate with the other pantheons so they can either destroy the Snarl for good or lock it permanently away, right? That the Dark One is the fourth color, replacing the quiddity of the extinct Northern gods, right? The OOTS were not only trying to get to the last Gate to stop Xykon, but also for Durkon to attempt to convince the Dark One to play nice in the sandbox, right? Yet Redcloak decisively gave the whole "cooperate" idea a massive F.U. due to his own selfish reasons and the Dark One is convinced that destroying the world is the best option for the goblin, right? So everything's doomed, unless the OOTS can somehow destroy the last Gate and/or keep it safe from Xykon & Redcloak's plans, right?

But the Dark One isn't the only new color in the crayon box. The OOTS have unwittingly brought the true resolution to the last Gate.

Elan...and Banjo.

So. There used to be four pantheons/colors: yellow for the Norse gods, blue for the Twelve, and red for Marduk's Clan, with the Eastern gods and their "green quiddity" having been destroyed by the Snarl before the OOTS world was created. (#1141). Yet green quiddity has not vanished -- Banjo is the reborn green.

Remember Therkla? Remember as she was dying and Elan was trying to use his singing/bard magic to help her overcome the poison? "Your music is green...just like me." (#593) That's an odd thing for a dying person to say, and it seems kinda out of nowhere. Strangely foreshadowing, in fact...

Consider: Banjo has power, and Elan is Banjo's true Believer & Priest. We saw the power when Banjo was introduced -- Banjo smited Roy, at Elan's request (#80) Yes, it was a puny strike. Yes, Roy didn't even notice it. But it still happened, and Elan wasn't casting any bardic magic at the time. Banjo is even part of a pantheon, thanks to Giggles, the god of slapstick, and they have an entire island of believers (#561). Hell, the orcs believe strongly enough in Banjo to not only worship him, but to chase Elan & company when Elan tried to escape with their god. AND they believed Elan immediately when he presented the orcs with Banjo's fellow god, Giggles, and still believed in Banjo strongly enough to think him a rival to Giggles.

Even Thor and Odin seemed to take Banjo seriously as a possible god, remember? (#137)

And Elan's faith in Banjo has not wavered. If anything, it's gotten stronger with Elan's learning the cure spells, to the point that he's using Banjo as a focus for those spells (#949). As Elan's gotten stronger, so has Banjo. And Elan knows about storytelling and tropes, and how to use the power of stories to change things for the better.

For that matter, Tarquin (Elan's dad) seemed awfully insistent that Elan was somehow the hero of the story, beyond all observational evidence otherwise -- what if he was right?

The more I think about it, the more I keep seeing hints pointing to this possible outcome. Banjo's stuck around longer than a silly running gag should...unless there's a real reason that he has. Thoughts?

[Fyraltari]

I just wish the Giant would issue the print books as ebooks

They are available as PDFs here.

the Dark One is convinced that destroying the world is the best option for the goblin, right?

No? The Dark One's plan is still to negotiate from a position of force. flipping the table and starting over is still just a consolation prize. As far as we know. We have very little to go on when it comes to Big Purple.

But the Dark One isn't the only new color in the crayon box. The OOTS have unwittingly brought the true resolution to the last Gate.

Elan...and Banjo.

You are far from the first one to suggest this. You don't know, but ever since the gods started playing an important role in the plot, a great many people started bringing up Banjo as a potential solution. this is unlikely chiefly because, well... he's a puppet.
The author, and the comic itself (though, mainly int he side-books) has clearly stated that the goblins' basic grievances are real and the plot has moved in the direction of the heroes (namely Roy and Durkon so far) recognizing that they themselves have played a part in them. To side-step this witha "gotcha" twist solution involving an inanimate object would be an odd resolution to say the least, thematically speaking. Beating the "bad guy" isn't enough, the problem that created them must be addressed.

For that matter, Tarquin (Elan's dad) seemed awfully insistent that Elan was somehow the hero of the story, beyond all observational evidence otherwise -- what if he was right?

Tarquin is a deluded narcissist. The entire point of the last third of BritF is that he is thouroughly mistaken about pretty much everything.

The more I think about it, the more I keep seeing hints pointing to this possible outcome. Banjo's stuck around longer than a silly running gag should...unless there's a real reason that he has. Thoughts?

To contribute to Thor's ritual, The Dark One would need to provide enough divine essence to fuel a 9th-level spell. Neither Banjo nor Elan have ever demonstrated anything close to that level of power.

[Peelee]

Remember Therkla? Remember as she was dying and Elan was trying to use his singing/bard magic to help her overcome the poison? "Your music is green...just like me." (#593) That's an odd thing for a dying person to say, and it seems kinda out of nowhere.

Fyraltari addressed most of the things I wanted to (Banjo is a puppet, not a diety; Tarquin being wrong was the point; Banjo saving everything renders the villain's complaints, which are quite valid, entirely moot with no resolution at all), but this is still one thing that went unsaid. Therkla mentions Elan's music is green because Elan's music is green. It has been since the very beginning. Magic effects have color in Stickworld, which is unrelated to divine theoscopic particles, and the author has said that such colors are personal choice on the casters' part:

Every spellcaster has their own color; it is not based on their alignment or type of magic or anything. It is mostly a matter of choice or personality, though most clerics tend to clump into the same general color if they worship the same gods because they tend to choose the same colors and/or have similar personalities.

Elan's dweomer is blue. Elan's music, which is magical, is green. Simple as that. Therkla happened to note that his music was green, like she is, because she was reaching as hard as she could for any connection to him because of her personal issues. Sure, it could theoretically be foreshadowing, but I doubt it.

Also, I don't want to make it seem like we're tamping down on your theory here. It's just that, as Fyraltari mentioned, that theory has been tossed out a lot, and after many, many discussions, it's become pretty easy to consolidate the major points against it.

[Jasdoif]

Also, I don't want to make it seem like we're tamping down on your theory here. It's just that, as Fyraltari mentioned, that theory has been tossed out a lot, and after many, many discussions, it's become pretty easy to consolidate the major points against it.

Yeah; I could definitely see Elan and Banjo pushing a plan over the finish line, but being the plan in their own right would be quite a stretch. If nothing else, the "get Redcloak onboard" idea is Thor's, and Thor's aware of Elan and Banjo.

[SlashDash]

To slightly add more to the point above - to assume that this would resolve without the Dark One's help is to miss the entire point of this story.

If we skip over the first book that was mostly rule jokes, everything since then had a clear and cut motif about how monsters are also "people" in a sense and the whole part about how we never think of them as beings who have lives or feelings is a terrible one.

From the constant look at how the goblins are treated to even the party killing a black dragon knowing that it was a teenager but never thought how horrible that would be for his mother.

This particular strip is one of the better examples

And you can probably find dozens of other examples.
So it's fair to assume that however the story ends, it will have something to do with some form of peace between the goblins and the pc races.

[Metastachydium]

Also, I don't want to make it seem like we're tamping down on your theory here. It's just that, as Fyraltari mentioned, that theory has been tossed out a lot, and after many, many discussions, it's become pretty easy to consolidate the major points against it.

Pretty much. And not bringing up Giggles even earns some good points with me (as well as exemption from being subjected to my SCREAMING FURY).

[Fyraltari]

Also, music/color theory is new.

[Metastachydium]

True! And there's no mention of the Greenhilts being vessels for dead gods either!

(Still, much to my frustration, I've just noticed that my initial skim of the OP was blissfully superficial. [Enters SCREAMING FURY mode.] DIE, GIGGLES, DIE!!!!)

[Synesthesy]

Also, music/color theory is new.

A none, none said it was just a Synesthesia. It's in my name :P did you know that in real world there is people that can see the music just as our friend half orc? :)

Ok, I'm going OT.

[Fyraltari]

A none, none said it was just a Synesthesia. It's in my name :P did you know that in real world there is people that can see the music just as our friend half orc? :)

Ok, I'm going OT.

Yes, yes, I did. Just like I know there are people who cannot make pictures inside their mind (that's aphantasia, if you're curious).

[Dame_Mechanus]

But what if Banjo gets the Crimson Mantle?! That would... not actually solve anything, but picturing Redcloak's face almost would make it worth it.

"I don't know which is worse: That a puppet is replacing me or that it turns out he actually was better for my people."

[Metastachydium]

But what if Banjo gets the Crimson Mantle?! That would... not actually solve anything, but picturing Redcloak's face almost would make it worth it.

"I don't know which is worse: That a puppet is replacing me or that it turns out he actually was better for my people."

How exactly that damn thing would transition from "puppet with delusions of godhood projected onto it" to "trusted 17th level celric of Big Purple" is kind of beyond me, you know.

[KorvinStarmast]

That the Dark One is the fourth color, replacing the quiddity of the extinct Northern gods, right?

No, the Eastern (Greek-ish) deities who were consumed by the Snarl when it first manifested.

Elan...and Banjo.

Nope. Banjo's a puppet.

"Your music is green...just like me."

And Roy's magic sword does green stuff versus undead. I raised that, some years ago, here along the lines of 'maybe that meteorite shard in Roy's sword brought with it traces of Green quiddity' and received explanations of "nope" that are well supported.

For that matter, Tarquin (Elan's dad) seemed awfully insistent that Elan was somehow the hero of the story, beyond all observational evidence otherwise -- what if he was right?

Given that Elan knows Tarquin is wrong, and that the story has shown Tarquin to be wrong ... nope.

[Dame_Mechanus]

How exactly that damn thing would transition from "puppet with delusions of godhood projected onto it" to "trusted 17th level celric of Big Purple" is kind of beyond me, you know.

I'm liking that out of the entire murderer's row of reasons my silly suggestion is definitely not going to work, this is the one you picked out as the biggest problem. Which means that the intentional silliness is now making me grin even more at the thought of the Dark One communing with Banjo rubbing his chin and saying, "Look, I don't mind granting you levels, but I'm just not sure if I trust you yet."

[Peelee]

I'm liking that out of the entire murderer's row of reasons my silly suggestion is definitely not going to work, this is the one you picked out as the biggest problem.

Well, it's a magic item so it resizes to fit, Redcloak would indeed have quite the reaction to a puppet donning a major artifact that he has had for decades, and Banjo has had notably less genocidal effect on the goblin people than Redcloak has.

So your suggestion is pretty reasonable, all things considered.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Well, it's a magic item so it resizes to fit, Redcloak would indeed have quite the reaction to a puppet donning a major artifact that he has had for decades, and Banjo has had notably less genocidal effect on the goblin people than Redcloak has.

So your suggestion is pretty reasonable, all things considered.

"Why is a human our high priest now?"
"Oh, I'm not the high priest, I'm his puppeteer. Your high priest is Banjo."
"Our high priest is a puppet?"
"Your old one is a hat!"

And then Belkar dies of a heretofore undetected case of Plot Illness. He's got it right in the plot.

Roll curtains, the end, no moral!

[Peelee]

"Why is a human our high priest now?"
"Oh, I'm not the high priest, I'm his puppeteer. Your high priest is Banjo."
"Our high priest is a puppet?"
"Your old one is a hat!"

And then Belkar dies of a heretofore undetected case of Plot Illness. He's got it right in the plot.

Roll curtains, the end, no moral!

Oh, you didn't say anything about him being a high priest. You'd said nothing would have changed. If the puppet is high priest then yeah I gotta alter my position.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Oh, you didn't say anything about him being a high priest. You'd said nothing would have changed. If the puppet is high priest then yeah I gotta alter my position.

I said it wouldn't solve anything, not that nothing would change.

Although that might have been premature of me. If the mantle resizes to fit Banjo, it does solve something if the question you wanted solved was "will an artifact resize to fit Elan's puppet-god?" Which is an odd question to ask, but you live your truth.

[RobertaME]

I too have given a lot of thought to whether or not the Clown Pantheon (Banjo and Giggles) could be the big goofy ending of the story arc. I'm still not (totally) convinced that it won't end that way. (or at very least that The Clown Pantheon won't have some effect on the outcome of the story)

I get it... a lot of people think it's silly and stupid... but this is a comic about self-aware D&D stick figures... not a college thesis on moral relativism. I mean, Belkar has the skill Craft: Disturbing Mental Image, (among a few thousand other gags) so it's not like this would be out of the normal bounds of ridiculousness OotS has shown to date. :^Þ

Seriously though, if this thread is open to anyone's Wild Mass Guessing... I have one... and it's a game-changer.

Spoiler: My Wild Guess

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Ever sense "The Crayons of Time" (comic 273-277) everyone has known that the Snarl destroyed the Eastern (Greek) gods...

...but just how do we know this? The Order of the Scribble learned it somehow, right? The only beings that have existed through all the many worlds since the Snarl was created are the Western, Southern, and Northern gods... so they're the only ones in a position to have imparted this information once the Scribbles began looking for ways to stop the rifts. Thor (comic 1141) confirmed the story with Durkon and Minrah... so that's pretty much confirmation that the gods themselves are the source of the story...

...but how do the gods know that the Eastern gods were destroyed at all? They didn't even know about the world(s) inside the rifts, so they're obviously not all-knowing. Thor himself admits (comic 1141 again) that the Snarl is more real than any of the gods... or even all of them combined. Who's to say that the Snarl destroyed the Eastern gods?

Maybe it just pulled them inside itself... and that's where they still are.

I mean, if the gods can't even tell that there are entire worlds inside the rifts, what else don't they know about the Snarl and the rifts? It's been uncounted (billions?) of years since the Snarl was created and the Eastern gods were attacked by it. The Crayon drawings of dead Eastern gods torn asunder is the only "proof" we have of their death... and that was a story passed down by word of mouth for three generations as told by Shojo in his old age... and we have no idea if he was being honest about it all or not. (he was, after all, Chaotic)

I think its entirely possible that the Eastern gods were not destroyed by the Snarl, but consumed by it... and thereby they became a part of the Snarl. It's also possible that they've been world-building on their own through the Snarl, but eventually their world(s) collide with the worlds that the other three pantheons create and the rifts are formed where the worlds "poke through". Alternately, the Eastern gods are still trying to figure out a way to escape the Snarl and the rifts are the manifestations of these attempts.

So how can the world be saved if the Dark One won't help the other pantheons do it? The OotS finds some way of reaching out to the Eastern gods trapped in the Snarl and the same four pantheons that created it unmake it.

OK, it's thin... but this is supposed to be Wild Mass Guessing, right? :^Þ

Thoughts and refinements welcome.

[Peelee]

I too have given a lot of thought to whether or not the Clown Pantheon (Banjo and Giggles) could be the big goofy ending of the story arc. I'm still not (totally) convinced that it won't end that way. (or at very least that The Clown Pantheon won't have some effect on the outcome of the story)

I get it... a lot of people think it's silly and stupid... but this is a comic about self-aware D&D stick figures... not a college thesis on moral relativism.

In light of this statement by the author:

But beyond that, no fiction is meaningful if its lessons cannot be applied to the world that we, real actual humans, live in. If you are going to dismiss any themes or subtext present in any fantasy story as simply not applying to our world because that world has dragons and ours doesn't, then you have largely missed the point of literature as a whole, and are likely rather poorer for it. Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism. So if I can make even one person think about how we treat people of other races (or religions, or creeds, or what have you) by using the analogy of Redcloak, then it will have been time well spent on my part.

I cannot find a way to reconcile the "puppets will save the world" proposed ending with his stated purpose behind writing the story.

[Crimsonmantle]

Evidently Banjo and Giggles are lesser deities in the purple pantheon and their role in completing the ritual will be rewarded when orcs as well as goblinoids get their fair share of the world.
Including all of the puppies.

[Metastachydium]

For the record, I counted the damn orcs. There's some four dozen of them appearing on-panel. Assuming that the tribe numbers in the low hundreds seems generous to me. The "vague land spirit" with the caves and reefs has a higher chance of having attained godhood than stupid Giggles will have had years after the conclusion of the entire story.

[Peelee]

For the record, I counted the damn orcs. There's some four dozen of them appearing on-panel. Assuming that the tribe numbers in the low hundreds seems generous to me. The "vague land spirit" with the caves and reefs has a higher chance of having attained godhood than stupid Giggles will have had years after the conclusion of the entire story.

Dont forget the time the orcs ate their god! Everyone knows eating a god grants you it's power.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly, I think the most lokely thing to have happened, is that Banjo worship lasted like a week before the something else caught the tribe's fancy and they started worshippong that.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Dont forget the time the orcs ate their god! Everyone knows eating a god grants you it's power.

Considering said god's power seemed to be limited to being delicious with cheese slices on a hamburger bun, it remains ambiguous if the orcs would want to claim that power or advertise the possibility.

[Fyraltari]

Considering said god's power seemed to be limited to being delicious with cheese slices on a hamburger bun, it remains ambiguous if the orcs would want to claim that power or advertise the possibility.

Spoken like someone who's never looked a bull in the eye.

[Dame_Mechanus]

Spoken like someone who's never looked a bull in the eye.

If "being a bull" had helped it at all it wouldn't have disappeared coinciding with those hamburger buns, would it?

[WanderingMist]

In light of this statement by the author:

I cannot find a way to reconcile the "puppets will save the world" proposed ending with his stated purpose behind writing the story.

For what it's worth, while I enjoy the comic, I heavily disagree with the Giant about reasons for fantasy literature. It can be valuable in its own right without needing to apply to anything in the real world. So often people look down on escapism as something cowardly.

"Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word, and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter."

-J.R.R. Tolkien

[Peelee]

For what it's worth, while I enjoy the comic, I heavily disagree with the Giant about reasons for fantasy literature.

So do I, but if we're discussing a work of fiction written by the Giant, then his opinion on it is pretty damned relevant.

[Metastachydium]

Spoken like someone who's never looked a bull in the eye.

Now, now. Bullseyes are for us to hit them!