[WFRP] The Bloody Crown OOC XV

[-Sentinel-]

I mean, let's be blunt about this. Sforza isn't going to take the threat seriously until it's too late. That leaves us three real options

1. Put him in a situation where he can't deny it any longer
2. Kill him and deal with it ourselves
3. Sit on our hands and let things get worse

We can also try to deal with it ourselves without involving Sforza or his forces at all. Both the Vrani and the dwarfs are ancient enemies of Nahorek and are not under Sforza's command (or at least, act like they aren't).

[rax]

@LCP

Re social skill tests to convince Maglyn, Charm seems like the most obvious candidate ("...change the minds of individuals..."), but at the same time the description of Gossip says it's used to gather information and for "engaging in informal conversation", and Bardhyl is certainly digging for information through informal conversation here.

Which do you feel is appropriate to roll for?

[LCP]

I think here you're persuading her that sharing the info is in her interests, so charm.

[TheSummoner]

Some follow-on questions for Sieghard's plan:

1. How directly is Sieghard going to be assuming control of the division of labour? The villagers in Painford (and Thornwood folks in general) are used to largely managing their own affairs, as long as they pay their taxes. Will Sieghard be just ordering specific people to drop what they're doing and do specific jobs? If so, will he offer them any pay? Or will he use more indirect methods of encouragement?
2. On similar lines, what jobs does he want to use the Thorns for?
3. What's the rationing scheme going to look like? Will it apply just to Painford or to all Sieghard's land? Is it going to be on the honour system or is there some mechanism of enforcement? Most people have stores of food in their homes - are you going to centralise the stores so you can control how they're rationed out?

1) He'll try to provide direction and encouragement where he can, but he won't go to the level of outright ordering people. The primary method he'll be going about it is pretty much bluntly stressing that all of this is the best chance there is for everyone to make it through until next year.
2) At the moment, putting them to work hunting is probably the best use of their skills. He's not going to send everyone out of the village to do that, but they're no doubt the best shots and those that can be most trusted to actually bring back what they can find.
3) He's going to try to centralize things, yes. I don't think Sieghard really has the reach to enforce it beyond Painford. He can try to convince those outside to go along with it "You contribute now and we make sure you're taken care of when times get lean. And if you don't think they're going to get lean, look outside where there used to be green stuff". In Painford proper, he could enforce it, but he'd prefer to try to get them to go along with it willingly first. In Painford at least, he should have more leverage than elsewhere. "As long as you've known me, I've done everything I could to keep the people of Painford safe. Remember when Rorik sent his savages to attack the village? No one who listened to me was hurt." "What about Marta and Kirsten?" "No one who listened to me was hurt. I can't protect you if you don't trust me enough to listen"

I imagine this will all take some persuasion. Would fellowship-based intimidation be appropriate? Sieghard's not threatening them, but he's perfectly wiling to emphasize what's coming and how bad that will be if people don't get on board with what needs to be done.
(1d100)[12] vs 64
(1d100)[59] reroll

We can also try to deal with it ourselves without involving Sforza or his forces at all. Both the Vrani and the dwarfs are ancient enemies of Nahorek and are not under Sforza's command (or at least, act like they aren't).

Two problems with that. First, going under his nose is likely to just make him another obstacle when he inevitably finds out. It's something we can get away with for small things, but not for a war with the undead. Second, we're far more likely to succeed with his resources than without.

I've been thinking a bit about the whole ritual situation. Realistically, Elsa is the only one with any chance of permanently stopping Nahorek, or at least as permanent as it was last time. I realize this isn't exactly her specialty, but maybe she could devise a stronger prison for him. Maybe she could find a way to destroy his spirit. Maybe she could find out what they did last time and improve on that. Even if it's outside of her expertise, she's still more suited to it than anyone else in the party. She wouldn't necessarily have to come up with it alone either - the priests could probably be persuaded to help pretty easily and there's precedent for blending arcane and divine magics in Warhammer.

Another possibility that arguably could be a bit more in her area is the situation with the crops. The locusts are only part of the problem, the other one is the ticking clock that winter presents. Could she maybe come up with some sort if ritual that would prevent the ground from freezing? Something that would allow crops to grow through the rest of the year? She's no life wizard... She can't make them grow... But she might be able to create the conditions that will allow them to grow naturally. It seems feasible enough to at least bounce the idea around.

[-Sentinel-]

First, going under his nose is likely to just make him another obstacle when he inevitably finds out. It's something we can get away with for small things, but not for a war with the undead.

He certainly didn't oppose Kleinrabe's expedition. I think he mostly takes issue with people gambling with his resources, rather than people waging their private wars.

I've been thinking a bit about the whole ritual situation. Realistically, Elsa is the only one with any chance of permanently stopping Nahorek, or at least as permanent as it was last time. I realize this isn't exactly her specialty, but maybe she could devise a stronger prison for him. Maybe she could find a way to destroy his spirit. Maybe she could find out what they did last time and improve on that.

Right. Where would we find that knowledge?

I get the feeling that anything Elsa can do, those who imprisoned Nahorek millennia ago could do better.

Another possibility that arguably could be a bit more in her area is the situation with the crops. The locusts are only part of the problem, the other one is the ticking clock that winter presents. Could she maybe come up with some sort if ritual that would prevent the ground from freezing? Something that would allow crops to grow through the rest of the year? She's no life wizard... She can't make them grow... But she might be able to create the conditions that will allow them to grow naturally. It seems feasible enough to at least bounce the idea around.

I think cheating the very seasons across all of the Downlands is just too big for any ritual Elsa could realistically perform. Also, even if it could be done, keeping the ground from freezing does nothing about snowfall and short days.


@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

Spoiler

Show

It specifies no range. I don't know if it's an omission or if it's intended to be that powerful, just like the spell Fate of Doom from the Lore of Heavens.

[TheSummoner]

He certainly didn't oppose Kleinrabe's expedition. I think he mostly takes issue with people gambling with his resources, rather than people waging their private wars.

We are his resources. Well, except Bardhyl.

Right. Where would we find that knowledge?

I get the feeling that anything Elsa can do, those who imprisoned Nahorek millennia ago could do better.

Finding it's the challenge, but we've got groups generally inclined to help when it comes into looking into trying to dig up things like that.
Edit: Another possibility... One I'm not looking forward to, but may be something we have to deal with eventually anyways... There's probably clues in the Red Pyramid.

Also, I don't know why you'd assume that. Elsa matched Nahorek's spellcasting pretty well in Nath after all.

I think cheating the very seasons across all of the Downlands is just too big for any ritual Elsa could realistically perform. Also, even if it could be done, keeping the ground from freezing does nothing about snowfall and short days.

Who said anything about doing it across all of the Downlands? Even a smaller area could do a world of difference. Shorter days could still be an issue, but I don't think it's much of a stretch for a ritual that could work for, sake of magical mechanics, by infusing the ground with Aqshy to prevent the ground from freezing also be designed so that snow would melt upon touching it.

@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

Spoiler

Show

It specifies no range. I don't know if it's an omission or if it's intended to be that powerful, just like the spell Fate of Doom from the Lore of Heavens.

Ha. Wouldn't solve his problems, but it would certainly help with some of ours.

[LCP]

He's going to try to centralize things, yes.

I'd like some more detail there if poss.:

• Where will the stores be? Are there any measures you want to specify to keep them protected?
• How will you determine people are putting their fair share in and taking their fair share out?

I don't think Sieghard really has the reach to enforce it beyond Painford.

He is Warden of the Thornwood, and he's got tax collectors stationed in Ravenskird.

Bear in mind that if the rules only apply in a small area, some people may get clever about coming and going over the boundary.

I imagine this will all take some persuasion. Would fellowship-based intimidation be appropriate? Sieghard's not threatening them, but he's perfectly wiling to emphasize what's coming and how bad that will be if people don't get on board with what needs to be done.
[roll0] vs 64
[roll1] reroll

You have a reasonable amount of goodwill and people can see the necessity of measures like these, so you don't need rolls to secure agreement in principle. I'll take the rolls to represent how well Sieghard goes about "encouraging" people to execute the specific jobs he wants done as they need doing, though.

@ LCP: I've been looking at options in Realms of Sorcery, and while I found nothing that fits Sforza's vague demands to "magic my problems away", I did have a close look at the spell Burning Vengeance. Sounds useful to our campaign, but I'm just wondering... would you even allow it, or is it plainly overpowered? I know that some of the extra spells from Realms are poorly designed.

It looks to me like it ought to have a range. Wouldn't be the only spell to have its range omitted.

Doesn't seem broken otherwise though.

Finding it's the challenge, but we've got groups generally inclined to help when it comes into looking into trying to dig up things like that.
Edit: Another possibility... One I'm not looking forward to, but may be something we have to deal with eventually anyways... There's probably clues in the Red Pyramid.

You do have a fair few bits and bobs you've already dug up. Meskhenet, Zonbrynaz, Nahorek's mask... the book...

[rax]

I think here you're persuading her that sharing the info is in her interests, so charm.

Thanks, I'll get a roll and IC post up tomorrow. Had a really busy day today.

[-Sentinel-]

the hand-scribed account of a wandering Solkanite inquisitor,

Who are the Solkanites? Do I need to roll some kind of knowledge test?

[TheSummoner]

I'd like some more detail there if poss.:

• Where will the stores be? Are there any measures you want to specify to keep them protected?
• How will you determine people are putting their fair share in and taking their fair share out?

• Short term, the manor. Longer term, build dedicated building. Watched/Locked
• Taking, Sieghard's men can oversee distribution. Contributing, all that can really be done is keep track of things.

He is Warden of the Thornwood, and he's got tax collectors stationed in Ravenskird.

Bear in mind that if the rules only apply in a small area, some people may get clever about coming and going over the boundary.

The issue is more of manpower than anything else. He just doesn't have the sort to send people every time someone needs a meal. If the people more distant want to take what they can and move closer to the village, they have that option. Otherwise, I don't see there being lot he can do about it. This goes both ways though - If they want to be on their own in terms contributing to pooling resources, that also means they're on their own in terms of drawing from the pool. The best he can do is try to convince them it's in their own best interest as well as everyone else's. Survive together or risk starving alone sorta thing.

You do have a fair few bits and bobs you've already dug up. Meskhenet, Zonbrynaz, Nahorek's mask... the book...

I'm doubtful how much any of those could tell us about the ritual that imprisoned Nahorek originally. MAYBE the mask if we had Hieronymus study it via Lore of Verena, but that's probably got just a good a chance if not more of just giving him a bunch of horrific, insanity inducing visions of Nahorek doing Nahorek things. After what he's been through, I'm not sure if risking that sort of thing is the best idea. I think we already had either him or Adelbert check the spear, but I could be mistaken.

Who are the Solkanites? Do I need to roll some kind of knowledge test?

OOC answer that shouldn't affect anything relevant IC: A relic of early Warhammer back when they were copying Michael Moorcock's Law vs Chaos dynamic a bit more closely rather than going all in on the Chaos side of things. How canon they are has varied over time, but I think 4e brought them back as something that does exist in-universe while being fairly minor.

[-Sentinel-]

OOC answer that shouldn't affect anything relevant IC: A relic of early Warhammer back when they were copying Michael Moorcock's Law vs Chaos dynamic a bit more closely rather than going all in on the Chaos side of things. How canon they are has varied over time, but I think 4e brought them back as something that does exist in-universe while being fairly minor.

Thanks.

Ludo nodded. "The further away we send it, the less it's our problem. A shame that the knights of Morr didn't take it."

Come on now, we all know it can't be that simple. We know it IC (the Book has a mind of its own), and we know it OOC (there's no way LCP lets us get rid of such a plot-driving source of conflict just by handing it over to a bunch of randos).

This is like calling the police on Jason Voorhees.

[LeSwordfish]

Ludo furrowed his brow. "Who's LCP?"

[TheSummoner]

"Regional diety they worship a bit further north," Sieghard replied. "Ranald's cousin. God of the sort of luck that us usually ends in someone being maimed. Mostly worshipped by horse thieves and the sort of lackwit who spends too much time playing with dice."

[LCP]

A shifty-looking dog in the corner moved its eyes from side to side.

I'd like to wrap up Ludo's scene before I move things along too far with Elsa, since both characters are communicating with Sforza. Does Ludo have more he wants to say, or should I move things along? Not sure what's next on his list, whether he wants to visit Hieronymus today etc.

For Jarla, as well as going to her room and getting drunk, are there any other NPCs she wants to catch up with? There's the letter Carraciolo gave her for Barbaro, and she hasn't seen her bestie Irene yet.

Contributing, all that can really be done is keep track of things.

How you'll keep track is what I'm interested in. Will you be relying on the Thorns' memories for numbers and faces, or will you have some kind of ledger/register? Will a single person/small group of people oversee it or will you share the duty out?

This kind of civilian rationing is a fairly tricky logistical endeavour - in the 20th century it was done with things like ration books. You've got the advantage of working with a small, tight-knit community here, but you can expect it's still going to put that community under strain - I just need to know the shape of the order that's being imposed well enough that I can picture how people feel about it and interact with it as time goes on. I'm happy to abstract some of the planning with rolls etc., and for Sieghard to delegate if he can identify who he's delegating to, but the end result needs to be a method rather than an outcome.

[LeSwordfish]

I don't have a specific outcome I'm trying to achieve with Sforza - I think i've handed over the information we can reasonably give him and he'll respond to it as he wishes. Kind of wish I hadn't dissuaded him from sending people into the Red Pyramid, a squad of dead Iron Company would probably get his attention. Ludo wouldn't think that way, though. Feel free to close the conversation off now, i'll write myself over to Hieronymous' place when I have time.

[rax]

@LeSwordfish

When Bardhyl is done with Maglyn, I'm intending for his next line of inquiry to be to talk to Hieronymous. Perhaps Bardhyl and Ludo could handily meet up there?

I'd like to see if there's anything to be learned from the books Tshula was studying when we exorcised her the first time. As I noted at the time, it's not like she needed them to work out where the Book of Nagash is hidden, so what was she trying to learn?

[TheSummoner]

A shifty-looking dog in the corner moved its eyes from side to side.

How you'll keep track is what I'm interested in. Will you be relying on the Thorns' memories for numbers and faces, or will you have some kind of ledger/register? Will a single person/small group of people oversee it or will you share the duty out?

Sieghard is probably going to need a ledger to keep track of everything, which in turn also means bringing Ingwald back to Painford to handle most of the bookkeeping. Nominally, it's just going to be keeping track of how much food they've got on hand, but actual contributions will be written down as well so there will be a record if anyone seems to be slacking and trying to leech off the rest. As for whose overseeing it, probably a small group whose members are regularly rotated to make sure no one gets too comfortable with the position. I'd like to hope none of the soldiers would take advantage of being the ones overseeing the food supply, but I'm not so naive as ignore the possibility.

[LeSwordfish]

@LeSwordfish

When Bardhyl is done with Maglyn, I'm intending for his next line of inquiry to be to talk to Hieronymous. Perhaps Bardhyl and Ludo could handily meet up there?

Sure, though I think Ludo would prefer to have this conversation about the miracle in private, so if that's not done by the time you are perhaps it could be slightly timesplit? I've jumped Ludo forward to the 27th to line up with that.

[RossN]

For Jarla, as well as going to her room and getting drunk, are there any other NPCs she wants to catch up with? There's the letter Carraciolo gave her for Barbaro, and she hasn't seen her bestie Irene yet.

Ooh, I forgot about the letter. Jarla will deliver it as soon as she can get away from Sforza.

Jarla is going to avoid going straight to Irene. Irene's awful anyway and she'll likely be a thousand times worse with the locusts.

[-Sentinel-]

@ LeSwordfish: While you're with Hieronymus, you should tell him that Tshula has been exorcised for good. He deserves to know.

[LCP]

Sieghard is probably going to need a ledger to keep track of everything, which in turn also means bringing Ingwald back to Painford to handle most of the bookkeeping.

If you just want someone who's literate, there are probably others you could call on - but in terms of skills and experience he's certainly a good fit. Does that mean you'll be leaving Ravenskird to fend for itself unsupervised?

Irene's awful anyway

gasp

people can be so mean

[TheSummoner]

Not unsupervised. Just un-Ingwalded. I think Sieghard will need an update from Ingwald on how Ravenskird is doing post-locust before making any specific plans.

[rax]

@LCP

Re Maglyn's comments about the Shade coming in and out via the docks - is it a reasonable assumption that it's both arriving and leaving by boat? I ask because the hex map doesn't appear to show the river going all the way down to Last Water, so I'd assumed that it probably arrives in Savonne by road. Although, obviously it could go part of the way by road and then be loaded onto boats closer to Savonne. Conversely, could "out by the docks" also refer to the drugs being off-loaded in Savonne and then sent north by road via Alvarran?

I'm not trying to finagle a free answer here, just to get a feel for what it would be normal for Bardhyl to infer from Maglyn's explanation given his knowledge of how trade flows in and out of the Reaches.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not super familiar with the religion of the old world and was raised essentially atheistically myself, so please feel free to correct me if Ludo says something about the gods that jibes with what Everyone Thinks or Everyone Knows - I think this is something he's never really examined before and is now discovering, rather than the various unorthodox beliefs that Elsa or Adelbert have espoused at various times.

[RossN]

Given Adelbert ended up forsaking Verena and would have left the Temple had he survived he might not be the best spiritual example for Ludo.

[LCP]

I don't see anything in Ludo's assumptions or questions that seems out of place.

RossN, can I get a yes or no for if Jarla's going with Elsa?

[RossN]

She is going with Elsa. Sorry for the delay, real life busyness but I'll have an IC post up later today.

[rax]

@LCP

Did you see my post above?

[LCP]

Sorry - think I saw that and then clean forgot about it when I came back later.

A lot of stuff goes by the river even south of Savonne - riverboats are simply better than carts for moving large quantities of stuff. I think it's reasonable to assume that Maglyn means boats both ways.

Again this is an area where the other PCs already have some info IIRC.

[LeSwordfish]

Would Bardhyl be aware that it's possible to navigate the mere with a shallow boat, if you know the routes?