Interest poll: D&D 3e Upgrade Project?

[Renegade Paladin]

My proposal is as follows: 3rd Edition is essentially a good system at its core, but there are aspects of it, particularly classes and the magic system, that can be and in many cases clearly are unbalanced. The solution Wizards of the Coast has come up with is to scrap the whole thing and make 4e. Now, this is something that I'm unwilling to do simply because of the sheer amount of money I've already invested into the current edition. That they're making sweeping flavor changes, and ones that suck at that, is not serving to convince me. I know there are others who share my views on the matter.

So the question is this. Is there enough support in the gaming community to create, sustain, and ultimately finish our own "3.75e" of sorts? Keep in mind when responding that designers aren't all that this project would need: It would also require playtesters, proofreaders, editors, and even just people with good ideas to contribute. It's a huge project, and not one to be undertaken lightly, but there would be a place for just about anyone who wants to help, and with a large community behind it I believe it could succeed. Feel free to post and ask if you have questions.

So: Who's in?

(I'd make a poll, but we can't do that anymore. Sad. )

Edit: Another board I posted this poll on had a slight misunderstanding, so let me clarify.

I'm not suggesting the attempt to herd cats that actually trying to get a unified, single edition out of a bunch of guys on the Internet would be. Essentially what I want is a clearinghouse for posting and playtesting house rules. I think that such an effort could eventually create a cohesive ruleset (or more likely several different ones), but for now the objective is to make 3.x easier to houserule and balance, and maybe continue to get a few pre-made adventures on the side. (After all, what do you do with your old adventure ideas after they've been run? Might as well make them available somewhere if that's your thing, I think.)

[brian c]

I plan on doing this sort of thing with my homebrew setting, incorporating parts of the new 4e mechanics with 3e stuff and getting rid of the more overpowered things. If you get something going, I'd be interested.

[Renegade Paladin]

Evidently another board I posted this poll on had a slight misunderstanding of my intent, so I edited in a clarification to the OP.

[Gralamin]

I'd probably help out, assuming I'm not swamped with tests at the time the project begins.

[SilverClawShift]

My gaming group's actually discussed this. We've decided that even if we switch to 4th edition (which we probably won't, just on account of being so familiar with 3rd and 3.5), we're going to keep developing our Dustlands world with 3.5 edition rules. So that's at least more content and adventures for anyone wanting to stick with 3rd. If they find the material that is

[Renegade Paladin]

My gaming group's actually discussed this. We've decided that even if we switch to 4th edition (which we probably won't, just on account of being so familiar with 3rd and 3.5), we're going to keep developing our Dustlands world with 3.5 edition rules. So that's at least more content and adventures for anyone wanting to stick with 3rd. If they find the material that is

The "if they find the material" is the part I'm working on here. I know there's a lot of good house rules and good adventures scattered around the Internet; the idea is to have a clearinghouse where you can find a good chunk of them and ideally links to the rest. And then for those actively participating, their material gets feedback on balance and playability, and they can fix it.

[Darkxarth]

Well, I'm not too great at making houserules and checking balance, but The Campaign Builder's Guild has threads about that kind of stuff on a regular basis.

Different magic systems, different combat systems, variations on races, new races, monk fixes (at least one good one), and of course entirely new worlds and campaign settings.

You're very likely to find a lot of good stuff there, just make sure you talk to the posters before you link to their stuff.

[SilverClawShift]

The "if they find the material" is the part I'm working on here.

Like the "From the Playground" thread on the homebrew forum, but on a massive scale.

I like it.

[Lord Tataraus]

I'd be interested, as long as I don't have other big projects going (though the avatar project should be over relatively soon). I plan on doing something like this anyway and I assume a lot of other people are as well.

[shadow_archmagi]

I support this. So, would I be clear if I said the ideal end result would be that you folks copy-paste the entire d20 SRD website, and then just edit in all the new rules, creating a comprehensive guide to 3.75?

[Ne0]

Good idea. It was hard enough for me to get hold on a 3.5 book, I don't want to go through all that for 4e. I'd be willing to run a few test games, since I need some DM experience to prepare a campaign setting that has been roaming my head lately...

[Renegade Paladin]

I support this. So, would I be clear if I said the ideal end result would be that you folks copy-paste the entire d20 SRD website, and then just edit in all the new rules, creating a comprehensive guide to 3.75?

Essentially, yes, though the nature of the thing means that lots of people will have different ideas about what should be done. It'd probably develop into a lot of diverging editions, and if we can set up a wiki or something that can separate them as needed, that's just fine.

[shadow_archmagi]

A wiki would be a truly beautiful thing.

[Renegade Paladin]

A wiki would be a truly beautiful thing.

Well good, because I'm currently talking with the guys running the Akashic Record about hosting this on their server.

[streakster]

Should the Akashic Record deal not work out, try PBWiki. Free wiki space for all!

Just found that as I was reading this post. Man, I love Stumbleupon.

[Renegade Paladin]

I was thinking Wikia as a provisional host, but I'm leery of their content license. The project would have to be OGL, of course, but I wouldn't want everyone to have to surrender their copyrights for participating. I'll look into PBwiki; thanks.

[Roderick_BR]

If dipping in every once in a while is allowed, I'd like to join the project.
I have some ideas I'm using in my games that could work better if more people could look into it, and I'm sure there's enough stuff I could get from others. I already check the homebrew for ideas to add in my games, this sounds like an interesting idea.

[Renegade Paladin]

Roderick, we're talking about a voluntary project. Nobody's getting paid, so nobody can be held to set work hours. This is an as much or as little as anybody wants sort of proposition.

Everyone would have to agree to license the stuff they put up under the OGL for this to work, obviously. I don't think that's too onerous, and it's necessary for anyone to get permission to work on anyone else's material without having to ask every single time. I'm just pointing that out so everyone knows.

[hamstard4ever]

Interesting. I'm not sure how much consensus you're ever going to get, particularly considering how fundamental some of the problems are. In the end I think if you were aiming at a truly balanced system you'd probably end up with something more like a... 3.9e (that is, a system more closely resembling 4e--it wouldn't necessarily have to be borrowing any mechanical concepts directly, but it would need to address similar problems). Unless of course you're just willing to live with the problems.

I've been thinking about 3e fixes a lot lately, though, so I'd definitely be willing to contribute in any case.

[shadow_archmagi]

So, I believe you ought to lay out a definate format for changes, and get the wiki up now, so we can have an ongoing, constant record.

[Renegade Paladin]

Working on getting the wiki up as fast as I can; since I don't control the Akashic Record server, I can't just set it up on demand. I'll post as soon as it's done.

[Renegade Paladin]

The site is up.

http://3eupgrade.akashicrecord.org/

There's nothing there yet; I only just registered my own profile. Starting to formulate a proper front page now. Feel free to jump in and get started.

[Suzuro]

I haven't really heard too much about 4th edition, so I can't say much about that, but I'd be willing to help if I'm not overly busy.


-Suzuro

[shadow_archmagi]

*bump*/ Ooohh, pretty.

I can see this turning out real nice.

[fireinthedust]

...And my axe!


Oh wait, we're past that. Hmm.

Anyway, I think a long discussion should be what, exactly, the problems are in 3.5. What is unbalancing everything? What can we do to change those imbalances?

Also, do we need another site? Oh well, too late. I was just thinking that putting a special note on threads in the homebrewing section would be good.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd also be interested. 3.75 could end up being a better system than either 3.5 or 4th.

[fireinthedust]

So what's wrong with 3.5?

My problem is that higher levels arn't... well, they get a little crazy. I had a gestalt game with players who know the rules waaay better than I do, and one of them trashed an army in one round. not fun.

What I am doing to fix the problem is this:

1) spell points for all spellcasters (although sorcerers are the same, I treat them as being spell-like abilities rather than spells; think rakshasas and dragons, rather than wizards). Also 8 spells they can prep at any one time, up to their max level they can cast. They can switch if they have a spellbook, or a holy symbol (with their PHB list and domains), and it only really takes a round or two. However, it really cuts down on the drudgery of spells as well as making spell selection more simple.
Also, spell points recharge a little every hour (4+ points), so the game doesn't slow down.
Not only that, but spellcasters a) won't suck at first level, and b) being stingy, players will be more reluctant to use higher-level "expensive" spells even though they would have used them anyway.

2) Get rid of all insta-kill rules. Some spells are fine for that, but I'm talking about Massive Damage vs. death from the fighters hitting monsters; it means that bbeg dragons don't go down in just one round, which is good.

3) Play up to 30th level max... or higher if we want, but I'm writing the plot so they fight zeus, orcus and Cthulhu around 20+ level. Anyway, having a scale work is a good idea.

That's what I can think of for now. any other suggestions?

[Roderick_BR]

Ok, got an account up. I'll look around a bit to learn how Wikis work.

[Lord Tataraus]

A word of warning/advice:

The first thing you do to run a successful project of this magnitude is to get a definite leader. This person must be enthusiastic about the project and have the time and energy to run something of this size. Then you need a small inner core of people to jump up and do things (as I have done with the avatar project). Then you need to have a set goal and terms to direct the project that should be laid out at the start. This should be a list of every major the leader wants to change and will not be disputed without a very, very, good reason. And lastly, remember that even though this is a community project, you must follow the leader's lead and realize that it is mostly his project, otherwise you will have a breech in authority and the project will fail.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, do we need another site? Oh well, too late. I was just thinking that putting a special note on threads in the homebrewing section would be good.

If I were limiting this to GitP, that's all it would be. As it stands, I'm pulling in people from Monte Cook's forum and the Wizards official board, and I'm going to start recruiting from other major boards pretty soon.

Besides, there's a definite advantage to using a wiki for this. It saves old versions of the page, so you have a complete version history of every rule posted to it automatically.

A word of warning/advice:

The first thing you do to run a successful project of this magnitude is to get a definite leader. This person must be enthusiastic about the project and have the time and energy to run something of this size. Then you need a small inner core of people to jump up and do things (as I have done with the avatar project). Then you need to have a set goal and terms to direct the project that should be laid out at the start. This should be a list of every major the leader wants to change and will not be disputed without a very, very, good reason. And lastly, remember that even though this is a community project, you must follow the leader's lead and realize that it is mostly his project, otherwise you will have a breech in authority and the project will fail.

Well, as of now I'm the leader by default. What I want to do right now is compile and test house rules for awhile; actually making a new edition out of the mess is a long way off, and something I wouldn't want to finalize before getting a chance to loot the 4e SRD for ideas anyway. My ambitions aren't so grand so soon; right now what I'm going for is simply a house rules testbed. After some time of testing and seeing what works and what doesn't, we can begin to get an idea of where we want to go when compiling it all into 3.75 (or multiple versions of 3.75, if we really do wind up with irreconcilable differences, but I'd prefer to avoid that).

De facto, it's my site. I make the rules, I administer the thing, and except for my kind hosts (who say they'd rather take a hands-off approach to the whole thing) I'm the only one with admin access, so major decisions kind of have to go through me. I have time to do this, and I intend to be as strong a leader as the project needs; if it turns out needing to have more direct leadership than I think it will, then so be it, but I'm going to see where it goes for awhile.

Additionally, the forum is up.