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    Default Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    D&D 3.5 - The Beguiler
    (Player's Handbook II, p. 6)

    If you delight in manipulating others, either to their disadvantage or for their own good, then the beguiler is the class for you.


    Hit Dice: d6

    Alignment: Any

    Starting Gold: 5d4x10

    Skill Points: 6 + Int

    Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge - Arcana (Int), Knowledge - Local (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)

    Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will Class Features 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Armored Mage, Trapfinding 5 3 - - - - - - - -
    2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Cloaked Casting (+2 DC), surprise casting 6 4 - - - - - - - -
    3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Advanced Learning 6 5 - - - - - - - -
    4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Skill Focus (Bluff) 6 6 3 - - - - - - -
    5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Silent Spell 6 6 4 - - - - - - -
    6 +3 +2 +2 +5 Surprise Casting (Move action) 6 6 5 3 - - - - - -
    7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Advanced Learning 6 6 6 4 - - - - - -
    8 +4 +2 +2 +6 Cloaked Casting (+2 to overcome SR) 6 6 6 5 3 - - - - -
    9 +4 +3 +3 +6 Improved Feint 6 6 6 6 4 - - - - -
    10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Still Spell 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - - -
    11 +5 +3 +3 +7 Advanced Learning 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - - -
    12 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Cloaked Casting (+4 to overcome SR) 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - - -
    13 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 -- 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - -
    14 +7/+2 +4 +4 +9 Cloaked Casting (+3 DC) 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 - -
    15 +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Advanced Learning, Coercive Spell 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - -
    16 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 Cloaked Casting (+6 to overcome SR) 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3 -
    17 +8/+3 +5 +5 +10 -- 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 -
    18 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Cloaked Casting (+4 DC) 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 3
    19 +9/+4 +6 +6 +11 Advanced Learning 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4
    20 +10/+5 +6 +6 +12 Cloaked Casting (Overcomes SR), Deceptive Spell 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5
    Spoiler: Beguiler Class Spell List
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    Note: Only the newly added spells for this Class Fix have either Links or cited sources so as to easily differentiate and locate them.

    Spoiler: Level 0 Cantrips
    Show

    Dancing Lights
    Daze
    Detect Magic
    Ghost Sound
    Mage Hand (SRD)
    Message
    Open/Close
    Prestidigitation (SRD)
    Read Magic
    Servant's Guise (WotC, Web)
    Silent Portal (Spell Compendium, p. 190)

    Spoiler: Level 1 Spells
    Show

    Alibi (Exemplars of Evil, p. 27),
    Charm Person
    Color Spray
    Comprehend Languages
    Dead End (Spell Compendium, p. 59)
    Detect Secret Doors
    Disguise Self
    Expeditious Retreat
    Hypnotism
    Mage Armor
    Obscuring Mist
    Rouse
    Silent Image
    Sleep
    Undetectable Alignment
    Whelm

    Spoiler: Level 2 Spells
    Show

    Blinding Color Surge
    Blur
    Daze Monster
    Detect Thoughts
    Fog Cloud
    Glitterdust
    Hypnotic Pattern
    Invisibility
    Knock
    Minor Image
    Misdirection
    Phantom Trap (SRD - also known as 'Leomand's Trap in the PHB)
    See Invisibility
    Silence
    Spider Climb
    Stay The Hand
    Touch of Idiocy
    Vertigo
    Wall of Gloom (Spell Compendium, p. 233)
    Whelming Blast

    Spoiler: Level 3 Spells
    Show

    Arcane Sight
    Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
    Crown of Veils
    Deep Slumber
    Dispel Magic
    Displacement
    Glibness
    Halt
    Haste
    Hesitate
    Hold Person
    Illusory Script (SRD)
    Inevitable Defeat
    Invisibility Sphere
    Legion of Sentinels
    Major Image
    Nondetection
    Phantom Steed (SRD)
    Slow
    Suggestion
    Vertigo Field
    Zone of Silence

    Spoiler: Level 4 Spells
    Show

    Charm Monster
    Confusion
    Crushing Dispair
    Freedom of Movement
    Greater Invisibility
    Greater Mirror Image
    Hallucinatory Terrain (SRD)
    Locate Creature
    Mass Whelm
    Phantom Battle
    Rainbow Pattern
    Shadow Conjuration (SRD)
    Solid Fog

    Spoiler: Level 5 Spells
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    Break Enchantment
    Dominate Person
    Feeblemind
    Friend to Foe
    Hold Monster
    Incite Riot
    Mind Fog
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Seeming
    Sending
    Shadow Evocation (SRD)
    Swift Etherealness

    Spoiler: Level 6 Spells
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    Greater Dispell Magic
    Illusory Pit (Complete Arcane, p. 112)
    Mass Suggestion
    Mislead
    Overwhelm
    Programmed Image (SRD)
    Shadow Walk
    True Seeing
    Veil

    Spoiler: Level 7 Spells
    Show

    Ethereal Jaunt
    Greater Arcane Sight
    Greater Shadow Conjuration (SRD)
    Mass Hold Person
    Mass Invisibility
    Phase Doors
    Power Word Blind
    Project Image
    Spell Turning

    Spoiler: Level 8 Spells
    Show

    Demand
    Discern Location
    Greater Shadow Evocation (SRD)
    Maddening Whispers (Spell Compendium, p. 135)
    Mind Blank
    Moment of Prescience
    Power Word Stun
    Scintillating Pattern
    Screen

    Spoiler: Level 9 Spells
    Show

    Dominate Monster
    Etherealness
    Foresight
    Mass Hold Monster
    Power Word kill
    Shades (SRD)
    Time Stop



    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Beguilers are proficient with all simple weapons plus the hand crossbow, rapier, shortbow, and short sword. Beguilers are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.


    Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler's spell list. You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time. Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature (see below) as you increase in level.

    To cast a beguiler spell, you must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level (Int 10 for 0-level spells, Int 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a beguiler's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the beguiler's Int modifier. Like other spellcasters, a beguiler can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1—1. In addition, you receive bonus spells for a high Intelligence score (PH 8).

    A beguiler need not prepare spells in advance. You can cast any spell you know at any time, assuming you have not yet used up your spells per day for that spell level.


    Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster's gestures, which can cause your spells to fail if those spells have a somatic component. A beguiler's limited focus and specialized training, however, allow you to avoid any chance of arcane spell failure as long as you restrict yourself to light armor. This training does not extend to any other form of armor, nor does this ability apply to spells gained from other spellcasting classes.


    Trapfinding: Beguilers can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    Beguilers can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap typically has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

    A beguiler who beats a trap's DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with his allies) without disarming it.


    Cloaked Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. You gain a +2 bonus to the spell's save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not).

    - At 8th level, you gain a +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target. (This effect stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)

    - At 12th level, you gain another +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target for a total of +4. (This effect still stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)

    - At 14th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +3.

    - At 16th level, you gain another +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target for a total of +6. (This effect still stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)

    - At 18th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +4.

    - At 20th level, you become able to automatically overcome the spell resistance of any affected target. If you have the feats Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, you lose those feats and instead gain a bonus feat (or bonus feats, in the case that you have both) in their place. The feat gained must have been something you would have qualified for at the time you took the feat being replaced.


    Surprise Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you successfully use the Bluff skill to feint in combat, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next melee attack you make against it or the next spell you cast. You must remain in melee with the target, and the attack must be made or the spell cast on or before your next turn. The target is not considered flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against you if you do not cast defensively.

    At 6th level, you gain the ability to feint in combat as a move action instead of a standard action. If you have the Improved Feint feat (gained at level 9), you can now feint in combat as a swift action.


    Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the Universal, Enchantment, or Illusion school or that has the Mind-Effecting spell descriptor and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.

    You gain another new Advanced Learning spell at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.


    Skill Focus (Bluff): At 4th level, you gain the feat Skill Focus [Bluff] (Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 100) as a bonus feat.


    Silent Spell: At 5th level, you gain Silent Spell (Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 100) as a bonus feat, and can add it to your spells automatically without having to raise the level of the spell you are altering, and without increasing the casting time as would normally be the case when adding metamagic.


    Improved Feint: At 9th level, you gain the feat Improved Feint (Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 95) as a bonus feat, even if you would not otherwise qualify for it.


    Still Spell: At 10th level, you gain Still Spell (Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 101) as a bonus feat, and can add it to your spells automatically without having to raise the level of the spell you are altering, and without increasing the casting time as would normally be the case when adding metamagic.


    Coercive Spell: At 15th level, you gain Coercive Spell (Drow of the Underdark, p. 47) as a bonus feat, and can add it to your spells automatically without having to raise the level of the spell you are altering, and without increasing the casting time as would normally be the case when adding metamagic.


    Deceptive Spell: At 20th level, you gain Deceptive Spell (CityScape, p. 60) as a bonus feat, and can add it to your spells automatically without having to raise the level of the spell you are altering, and without increasing the casting time as would normally be the case when adding metamagic.


    Spoiler: Author Notes & Changelog
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    I only altered 5 minor things about this class to improve its performance and get rid of several dead levels. A full breakdown of the 5 changes are in the post below to avoid cluttering this post.

    ~ Biscuit
    Last edited by Biscuit; 2023-01-16 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Changelog Breakdown

    This is a simple fix to make the Beguiler (Player's Handbook II, p. 6) more viable as a caster/rogue hybrid class. This adds a few spells that should have been in a Beguiler's arsenal to begin with, as well as a couple simple quality-of-life improvements to class features.

    Step 1 - Add the following spells to their class spell list for each spell level:

    Cantrips - Mage Hand (SRD), Prestidigitation (SRD), Servant's Guise (WotC, Web), Silent Portal (Spell Compendium, p. 190)
    1. Alibi (Exemplars of Evil, p. 27), Dead End (Spell Compendium, p. 59)
    2. Phantom Trap (SRD - also known as 'Leomand's Trap' in the PHB), Wall of Gloom (Spell Compendium, p. 233)
    3. Illusory Script (SRD), Phantom Steed (SRD)
    4. Hallucinatory Terrain (SRD), Shadow Conjuration (SRD)
    5. Shadow Evocation (SRD)
    6. Illusory Pit (Complete Arcane, p. 112), Programmed Image (SRD)
    7. Greater Shadow Conjuration (SRD)
    8. Greater Shadow Evocation (SRD), Maddening Whispers (Spell Compendium, p. 135)
    9. Shades (SRD)

    Reasoning: This adds a few very appropriate spells to the Beguiler class since it was mostly ignored in later splat books - which is a shame, as it is a fun and unique class that deserves attention. The addition of Mage Hand also qualifies them for Arcane Trickster, which is inequivalently thematic for the Beguiler class and it should absolutely have access to (even if they still wouldn't normally qualify to take it until level 10).



    Step 2 - As with the class features Silent Spell gained at level 5 and Still Spell gained at level 10, add similar class features Coercive Spell (Drow of the Underdark, p. 47) gained at level 15 and Deceptive Spell (CityScape, p. 60) gained at level 20 and give them the ability to add the corresponding +1 Metamagic effects to any spell cast without raising the spell's level or extending the casting time.

    Reasoning: A Beguiler does one thing better than any other spellcaster: Misdirect their opponents. The class feature should never have stopped with just Silent and Still, allowing for more misdirection and trickery and giving late-game levels of Beguiler a purpose instead of making it underpowered and easy to jump ship for a prestige class instead of taking high level Beguiler levels. It should also get a benefit to these instead of just a forced-choice bonus feat - the ability to use it inherently with their magic without penalty.



    Step 3 - Allow the Advanced Learning class feature to allow for the learning of Universal school spells and for any spell with the [Mind-Effecting] descriptor, on top of the normal Illusion and Enchantment school spells.

    Reasoning: This small change allows for thematic spells like Arcane Mark (Universal), Permanency (Universal), Cause Fear/Scare (Necromancy with the [Mind-Effecting] descriptor), Detect Thoughts (Divination with the [Mind-Effecting] descriptor), etc. that all fall well within a Beguiler's thematic wheelhouse.



    Step 4 - At 4th level, give them Skill Focus (Bluff) as a bonus feat and at 9th level, give the benefit of the Improved Feint feat without needing to meet its normal requirements (having the Combat Expertise feat). If they already have the Improved Feint feat, give them a Bonus Feat instead, as long as they qualify for the feat they choose.

    Reasoning: Surprise Casting depends on Feinting. If the mostly ranged caster class is forced to get up close and personal to use their class abilities, they should be given the tools to do so. This also solves both dead levels in the first 10 levels of the class.



    Step 5 - Change Cloaked Casting's benefits from the original to instead read:

    Cloaked Casting (Ex)
    : Starting at 2nd level, a beguiler's spells become more effective when cast against an unwary foe. You gain a +2 bonus to the spell's save DC when you cast a spell that targets any foe who would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not).
    • At 8th level, you gain a +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target. (This effect stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)
    • At 12th level, you gain another +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target for a total of +4. (This effect still stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)
    • At 14th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +3.
    • At 16th level, you gain another +2 bonus on rolls made to overcome the spell resistance of any affected target for a total of +6. (This effect still stacks with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration)
    • At 18th level, the bonus to your spell's save DC increases to +4.
    • At 20th level, you become able to automatically overcome the spell resistance of any affected target. If you have the feats Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, you lose those feats and instead gain a bonus feat (or bonus feats, in the case that you have both) in their place. The feat gained must have been something you would have qualified for at the time you took the feat being replaced.

    Reasoning: This clears up another 3 otherwise dead levels and progresses the ability to Overcome Spell Resistance a little instead of a single bump and then auto-success at 20 that the normal progression had. It also stops punishing you for taking all Beguiler levels if you had taken Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration, as they wouldn't simply become obsolete and useless at the capstone.
    Last edited by Biscuit; 2023-01-16 at 03:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Looks interesting, though you just copy/pasted the description for Still Spell for Coercive spell and Deceptive spell

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder999 View Post
    Looks interesting, though you just copy/pasted the description for Still Spell for Coercive spell and Deceptive spell
    Fixed! Thank you for pointing that out.

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Surprise Casting (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when you successfully use the Bluff skill to feint in combat, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC for the next melee attack you make against it or the next spell you cast. You must remain in melee with the target, and the attack must be made or the spell cast on or before your next turn. The target is not considered flat-footed and therefore can make attacks of opportunity against you if you do not cast defensively.
    The thing where the Beguiler (who is a caster with a d6 hit die and light armor) is supposed to run up into melee with people to feint on them has never really made sense. IMO this should either turn off AoOs, or more likely just be replaced with something else. Especially with the class getting greater invisibility, it's just not that hard for a Beguiler to flat-foot their enemies. I would give them some sort of class feature that helps out with their skill monkey-ing, rather than loading them down with more combat stuff when "cast SoDs that target Will" is already a fine combat strategy.

    Advanced Learning (Ex): At 3rd level, you can add a new spell to your list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation. The spell must be a sorcerer/wizard spell of the Universal, Enchantment, or Illusion school or that has the Mind-Effecting spell descriptor and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell you already know. Once a new spell is selected, it is forever added to your spell list and can be cast just like any other spell on your list.

    You gain another new spell at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th level.
    I've always felt that the non-Warmage fixed list casters should have access to Eclectic Learning if they wanted it. If you're re-writing the class, I think it's worth changing that.

    Coercive Spell: At 15th level, you gain Coercive Spell as a bonus feat, and can add it to your spells automatically without having to raise the level of the spell you are altering, and without increasing the casting time as would normally be the case when adding metamagic.
    This is a very minor editing note, but it makes it much easier for casual readers to understand the material if you list the source for stuff like this that isn't from Core or the same book as the Beguiler. Also this seems like a very weird pick for the Beguiler, because it's supposed to combo damaging and non-damaging spells. I guess the Beguiler technically has the whelm line, but it suggests a different sort of class to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    This adds a few very appropriate spells to the Beguiler class since it was mostly ignored in later splat books - which is a shame, as it is a fun and unique class that deserves attention.
    I mean, they do get Advanced Learning. IMO the list is fine, if you want them to have better access to non-standard spells, I would just make Advanced Learning more frequent. Maybe make it each odd level so they can grab a spell of each level if they want. I suppose it makes some sense to add mage hand and the Shadow spells to their list as they help with PrCs and fit well thematically (though giving the class easy access to Conjuration and Evocation, even by emulation, undercuts the fixed list focus).

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    The thing where the Beguiler (who is a caster with a d6 hit die and light armor) is supposed to run up into melee with people to feint on them has never really made sense. IMO this should either turn off AoOs, or more likely just be replaced with something else. Especially with the class getting greater invisibility, it's just not that hard for a Beguiler to flat-foot their enemies. I would give them some sort of class feature that helps out with their skill monkey-ing, rather than loading them down with more combat stuff when "cast SoDs that target Will" is already a fine combat strategy.
    I have always looked at is at a defensive ability for full Beguilers. If someone is getting all up in your business and you cannot get away, you have a way to increase the chances of having your spells be effective. And since you have a lot of spells designed to get you out of immediate danger or to alternatively lock down a threat, I have always seen this as a completely reasonable way to use this minor class feature.

    For certain Multiclassed or Prestiged Beguilers, it can actually be far more useful, and can even be seen as a main class feature rather than a minor optional one in such cases. Even moving it from a mostly defensive ability to an offensive one. Rogue/Beguiler/Unseen Seer or Rogue/Beguiler/Arcane Trickster, for example. Being able to Feint as a swift action means you then have the ability to apply spells more consistently or deal additional sneak-attack damage.

    Also, Rogues have the same HD and the same armor restriction (for most of their abilities)...and they are expected to just run up on folks and make them flat-footed to incorporate their main mechanic. I do not see why Beguilers would not be held to the same standard for a minor, optional class ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    I've always felt that the non-Warmage fixed list casters should have access to Eclectic Learning if they wanted it. If you're re-writing the class, I think it's worth changing that.
    The Beguiler spell list is already more extensive and varied than a Warmage's hyper-focused Evocation & Conjuration list, with the original Beguiler already having 9 Abjuration, 6 Conjuration, 15 Divination, 2 Evocation, and 13 Transmutation spells on their class list - a total of 45 spells not related to either Illusion or Enchantment. Compared to a Warmage who has all of 3 Abjuration, 1 Divination, 3 Illusion, 9 Necromancer, and 7 Transmutation spells - a total of 23 non-Conjuration and non-Evocation spells, the Beguiler is clearly already much more versatile.

    Changing Advanced Learning to work more like the Warmage's alternative class feature Eclectic Learning would just risk making Beguilers patently better than Sorcerers, with the right selection to augment their already good and versatile spell selection - and would be all but guaranteed if the rate at which you gain Advanced Learning spells were increased. Especially now that the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells have already been added to the base list with this fix. There are also several ways with which to add spells to your spell list already (Fiend-Blooded, Sand Shaper, Mother Cyst, Rainbow Servant, Unseen Seer, Nosomatic Chirurgeon, Frost Mage, Recaster, and Durthan all come to mind)

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    This is a very minor editing note, but it makes it much easier for casual readers to understand the material if you list the source for stuff like this that isn't from Core or the same book as the Beguiler. Also this seems like a very weird pick for the Beguiler, because it's supposed to combo damaging and non-damaging spells. I guess the Beguiler technically has the whelm line, but it suggests a different sort of class to me.
    You are absolutely correct, and I generally do cite sourcebooks for these things. I usually just go through and do so after I am done playtesting and tweaking. I've already added cited sourcebooks for all feats mentioned and will go through and do the same for the spells when I have a little more time. (If you are reading this and all spell already do have cited sources...I had time!)

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    I mean, they do get Advanced Learning. IMO the list is fine, if you want them to have better access to non-standard spells, I would just make Advanced Learning more frequent. Maybe make it each odd level so they can grab a spell of each level if they want. I suppose it makes some sense to add mage hand and the Shadow spells to their list as they help with PrCs and fit well thematically (though giving the class easy access to Conjuration and Evocation, even by emulation, undercuts the fixed list focus).
    While I agree that the original list was 'fine', as you say, any Beguiler worth their spit is already going to pick the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells as Advanced Learning spells as soon as they are able to, 9 times out of 10 (if not more). And if something is the 'only' choice because you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't take it, then it should really have been a part of the class to begin with because the class is underpowered without it, or they shouldn't have been a valid option to begin with because the class is overpowered with it.

    I opted to incorporate the 'obvious' choices so that the Advanced Learning feature can actually be used for personalization and not just "Well I have to take this one because it would be completely stupid not to." - mostly because the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells are still Illusions that always allow for saves to Disbelieve them, and there are entire categories of things that are immune to them because of that without additional consideration and preparation.

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Also, Rogues have the same HD and the same armor restriction (for most of their abilities)...and they are expected to just run up on folks and make them flat-footed to incorporate their main mechanic. I do not see why Beguilers would not be held to the same standard for a minor, optional class ability.
    No they're not, they're totally capable of using Sneak Attack at range, and in deed this is the expected strategy for optimized Rogues. And I would argue that the optionality makes it less compelling for the ability to be so situational. For the Rogue, you can at least argue that the class as a whole is expected to be built and played around turning on Sneak Attack. For the Beguiler, you've already got plenty of defensive options like "be invisible" or "have your minions stand between you and the bad guys".

    The Beguiler spell list is already more extensive and varied than a Warmage's hyper-focused Evocation & Conjuration list, with the original Beguiler already having 9 Abjuration, 6 Conjuration, 15 Divination, 2 Evocation, and 13 Transmutation spells on their class list - a total of 45 spells not related to either Illusion or Enchantment. Compared to a Warmage who has all of 3 Abjuration, 1 Divination, 3 Illusion, 9 Necromancer, and 7 Transmutation spells - a total of 23 non-Conjuration and non-Evocation spells, the Beguiler is clearly already much more versatile.
    I would argue that this is, to a large degree, a flaw with the Warmage. The class badly needs some kind of non-combat utility, and should probably get more BFC and finger of death-type SoD effects. Certainly Eclectic Learning is not a real corrective to this. Getting one 2nd level spell you cast out of 3rd level slots at 7th level is maybe a meaningful powerup if you pick exactly alter self, but honestly probably not even then. It's a flavor call that you can use to get a very limited amount of customization if that's important to you.

    Changing Advanced Learning to work more like the Warmage's alternative class feature Eclectic Learning would just risk making Beguilers patently better than Sorcerers, with the right selection to augment their already good and versatile spell selection - and would be all but guaranteed if the rate at which you gain Advanced Learning spells were increased.
    The Beguiler is already more powerful than the Sorcerer. They're not strictly better, but they're not strictly better if they can get scorching ray as a 3rd level spell at 7th level either.

    While I agree that the original list was 'fine', as you say, any Beguiler worth their spit is already going to pick the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells as Advanced Learning spells as soon as they are able to, 9 times out of 10 (if not more).
    I don't think this is true. Let's take a look at the options (by spell level, just because it's simpler to track that way).

    From 1st to 3rd, there are, of course, no shadow spells to pick from, so there's no choice. Though there is some stuff you might well pick instead, like fengut, shadow spray, or ray of stupidity.

    At 4th level, you've got battle hymn (nice defensive utility), greater rebuke (a somewhat niche pick, as you already get charm monster, but it does have a different offensive profile), and shadow well (gives you a non-mind-affecting offensive option, and can let you bypass some encounters). Plus with your changes to Advanced Learning, you can pick up fear, which is a solid enough choice.

    At 5th level, you've got sleep mote (force a save every round in addition to your other actions), and shadowfade (a bit redundant with the shadow walk you get next level, but there's interesting potential). Grabbing shadow evocation here is pretty tempting.

    At 6th level, you've got freezing glance (notable for not being mind-affecting, and doing the save/round thing), remorseless charm (generally a bad pick, but there are specific games where this will make your DM much more receptive to letting you do stuff with charm person/charm monster), transfix (AoE offense that's at least arguably better than mass suggestion), and permanent image/programmed image (which, if we're talking about things the Beguiler should just get, are way above the shadow spells).

    At 7th level, you've got hiss of sleep (again, arguably-better multi-target than what you get normally), final rebuke (no-save daze + save-or-die), and simulacrum (self-explanatory).

    At 8th level, you've got irresistible dance (no-save disables are fun), maddening scream (it's like irresistible dance, except arbitrarily better, but more obscure), maddening whispers (same deal as hiss of sleep and transfix), and wrathful castigation (objectively powerful, but IMO doesn't justify the higher-level slot compared to final rebuke).

    At 9th level, you've got mindrape/programmed amnesia (perhaps the most powerful Enchantments in the game), ice assassin (absolutely insane), and weird (yet another "better AoE" choice).

    Of course, it's absolutely true that the shadow evocation/shadow conjuration spells at each of these levels are compelling choices. Many Beguilers will pick them, and that's fine. But I think the idea that the overwhelming majority of Beguilers will do so is not accurate. The nature of the fixed-list caster is that you have to limit the list somewhere, and that there will be options that are more compelling for any given Advanced Learning pickup. That's just how it works. If you've added the shadow spells because they'd "always be picked", don't you have to do the same with simulacrum and ice assassin? And then, well, final rebuke is the obvious pick at 7th level, so give them that. And that suggests they'd get the little rebukes too. And so on and so forth down the line.

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    Default Re: Biscuit's Straight-Forward Beguiler Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    *critiques*
    I disagree with almost everything you said, except for the Warmage being terrible and in need of fixing.
    1. Yes, Rogues are offensive and Beguilers are defensive. You're only reiterated my original point.
    2. Sorcerers are better in that they are completely free (and encouraged) to prestige into a myriad of different prestige classes that increase their spellcasting in a variety of powerful ways and give them additional class features, generally more powerful than what a base class like Beguiler might provide, while a Beguiler's powers depend heavily on continued levels of Beguiler to keep improving their base abilities beyond just their very narrow field of spellcasting. They can prestige out, but they actually lose out on things when doing so, while Sorcerers only gain more power and have no restrictions on their spell selection, freeing them to pick only the optimal spells if desired, making them more powerful in that potential.
    3. We can argue spell choices until the sun dies, but I will maintain that Shadow Evocation & Conjuration spells are the optimal spell choices. As the Beguiler is meant to be a full ride from levels 1-20, simply including the optimal choices in their native spell lists makes sense so that the optional choices are actually meaningful to the character and not meaningful to the metagame. Which is also why the options were expanded slightly to include Universal school and [Mind-Effecting] spells.

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