WH40K coming to Amazon stream

[BloodSquirrel]

Eh, isn't Eisenhorn like "really 700 years old" anyway? Does it matter if he's 400 and looks 50 or 400 and looks 39?

Adding ten years to a 39 year old an actor isn't exactly hard anyway. A little bit of grey hair will about do it.

[dancrilis]

they are not justified. they are not good. they are the cruelest and bloodiest regime imaginable, and they are not to be taken as who are doing the best they can, or the right thing.

... even the existence of Chaos does not justify its crimes.

... hmmm, sounds like heresy.

It's no coincidence that the leaders of every chaos faction in 40K are Space Marines.

I think you might be forgetting the very real gods and the infinite demons that they have at their command - the chaos space marines come to your world you are having a bad day, much like if the orcs, tyranids come to your world (maybe a bit worse), but if the deamons of chaos come to your world you are about to have one of the worst days imaginable and they can show up anywhere at any time.

There is a reason that the Ordo Malleus is the most powerful Inquisition faction - and the initial focus point of the Inquisition.

On the topic of deamons, a 40k show about 'The Adventurers of Skulltaker' essentially in the same kindof idea as 'One Punch Man' might work - you know at some point he will show up and kill whoever it is he is killing today but that could act as more a framing device for what viewers know to expect and the episodes could focus on anything in any location across the 40k universe.

[GloatingSwine]

I think you might be forgetting the very real gods and the infinite demons that they have at their command - the chaos space marines come to your world you are having a bad day, much like if the orcs, tyranids come to your world (maybe a bit worse), but if the deamons of chaos come to your world you are about to have one of the worst days imaginable and they can show up anywhere at any time.

Daemons in 40k don't really just manifest in the materium like that though. They need help from the mortal side. It's not like WHFB where there can be major daemonic incursions at army scale without mortals pulling the trigger on it.

And usually that help is from one of the traitor legions.

[Fyraltari]

... hmmm, sounds like heresy.

Thanks! Did you know that the word "heresy" comes from the Greek word for "choice" and is best translated as "the process of deciding for oneself how to live rather than deferring to authority"?

I think you might be forgetting the very real gods and the infinite demons that they have at their command - the chaos space marines come to your world you are having a bad day, much like if the orcs, tyranids come to your world (maybe a bit worse), but if the deamons of chaos come to your world you are about to have one of the worst days imaginable and they can show up anywhere at any time.

No they can't. That's why they reached to Horus in the first place.

There is a reason that the Ordo Malleus is the most powerful Inquisition faction - and the initial focus point of the Inquisition.

And they're bad at their jobs. They literally burn their own planets to cinders (when they don't use virus bombs while one of their main enemies feeds on disease, real smart move, there) and murder any witnesses they can find.

[pendell]

Thanks! Did you know that the word "heresy" comes from the Greek word for "choice" and is best translated as "the process of deciding for oneself how to live rather than deferring to authority"?


No they can't. That's why they reached to Horus in the first place.


And they're bad at their jobs. They literally burn their own planets to cinders (when they don't use virus bombs while one of their main enemies feeds on disease, real smart move, there) and murder any witnesses they can find.

That's one of the many, many ironies of the WH40K universe that everything the Empire does to restrain chaos actually feeds it. Go to war? Khorne has a feast of skulls and blood. Drop a virus bomb? Nurgle gets to party. There isn't one thing they can do that won't make the situation worse, including nothing. The Empire is at best fighting a holding action, but the situation is not stable.

However, WH40K being what it is, I suppose we'll never in-universe see the 43rd or 44th millenium or any solution to the problem. Instead we will endlessly see the same factions locked in never-ending combat, like replaying 1916 over and over and over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GloatingSwine]

No they can't. That's why they reached to Horus in the first place.

Lorgar.

Lorgar was the first traitor, whose fear of Chaos and belief in the inevitability of its victory due to the divine nature of the Chaos gods and the rejection of religious worship from the Emperor led him to believe that submission to the Ruinous Powers was humanity's only hope for survival.

[LeSwordfish]

Lorgar.

Lorgar was the first traitor, whose fear of Chaos and belief in the inevitability of its victory due to the divine nature of the Chaos gods and the rejection of religious worship from the Emperor led him to believe that submission to the Ruinous Powers was humanity's only hope for survival.

Sure but the chaos gods used Lorgar and Erebus to get their in with Horus.

[Fyraltari]

That's one of the many, many ironies of the WH40K universe that everything the Empire does to restrain chaos actually feeds it. Go to war? Khorne has a feast of skulls and blood. Drop a virus bomb? Nurgle gets to party. There isn't one thing they can do that won't make the situation worse, including nothing. The Empire is at best fighting a holding action, but the situation is not stable.

However, WH40K being what it is, I suppose we'll never in-universe see the 43rd or 44th millenium or any solution to the problem. Instead we will endlessly see the same factions locked in never-ending combat, like replaying 1916 over and over and over.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I gotta ask, why are you insisting on calling it "The Empire" instead of "The Imperium"?

Also, the solution is to educate people about Chaos and magic so that they understand why it's better to stay away, to treat your citizens with decency so that Chaos doesn't have much to offer to them, to not to go to war every five goddam minutes, to cooperates with the aliens that can be reasoned with like the Eldar, the Necrons and the Tau (the Orks and the Tyrannids are lost causes, frankly) and to advance technological research to find countermeasures to Chaos and FTL that doesn't rely on the warp (the Necrons have both of those things so it's definitely possible).

And again, human factions outside of the Imperium worked it out better than it did. The Leagues of Votann have mutually beneficial relationship with their A.I.s and genetically engineered themselves to keep under Chaos's radar, the Gueva'sa enjoy more freedom and higher standards of living that 99.99% of the Imperium's population and they're not flooded with bloodletters, and the historical human factions like the Interex and the Diasporex were dealing with Chaos just fine until the Imperium steamrolled them.

Edit:

Lorgar.

Lorgar was the first traitor

Don't you mean Erebus or Kor Phaeron?

[Catullus64]

However, WH40K being what it is, I suppose we'll never in-universe see the 43rd or 44th millenium or any solution to the problem. Instead we will endlessly see the same factions locked in never-ending combat, like replaying 1916 over and over and over.

Hmm. I can't tell if you're stating this as a problem or just a fact. This is true, but it's most definitely a feature. 40k isn't a story, it's the texture of a story, there to provide a sense of narrative and epic scope as you smash your army of tiny action figures against the other guy's. That, and to provide a sense of emotional investment that justifies spending a month's rent on said tiny action figures.

[dancrilis]

Daemons in 40k don't really just manifest in the materium like that though.

No they can't.

Yes they can.

Daemons can speak to mortals through the warp into real space (and can hear mortals in turn) - that is how the corrupt people, and if those people succumb to corruption then they could become daemonhosts or be guided into other service. Psykers are particularly easy to speak to but they can speak to seemingly anyone (probably not blanks).

For instance Gheistos Cataclysm where a latent psyker with no knowledge of anything lashed out at a single guy and doomed a world.

Also the warp occassionally simply eats planets and spits them out later (i.e the War of Piety).

Another example would be the incursion of Ferrite Mons where a joke was heard in the warp and responded to.

Another would be the Purging of Camp 109 didn't seem to have any psykers, and traitor marines etc - just a desperate man offering a prayer to a power of the warp and the power responding.
Actually the Purging of Camp 109 might make a fine series - enough going on there to hold audience attention and tell a story with various characters.

Ignoring all this the Chaos Gods can seem to simply open warp rifts if they want - they just don't normally, if I recall correctly.

The fact that the Imperium has no real way of dealing with this isn't really the fault of the Imperium - their enemy is simply beyond them.

[GloatingSwine]

Yes they can.

Daemons can speak to mortals through the warp into real space (and can hear mortals in turn) - that is how the corrupt people, and if those people succumb to corruption then they could become daemonhosts or be guided into other service. Psykers are particularly easy to speak to but they can speak to seemingly anyone (probably not blanks).

There's a difference between daemons speaking to mortals and influencing them and them just being able to manifest from the warp. Random bloodthirsters don't just show up and wreck stuff, they need something to weaken the boundaries of reality from the materium side.

[dancrilis]

There's a difference between daemons speaking to mortals and influencing them and them just being able to manifest from the warp. Random bloodthirsters don't just show up and wreck stuff, they need something to weaken the boundaries of reality from the materium side.

The details are somewhat scatchy but it seems Skarbrand did materialise (rather the was summoned) on Lutoris Epsilon.

Ignoring that Bloodthirsters and other daemons do engage Elder, Necrons etc seemingly without any Imperial (or traitor) presence - so they can get to real space without such.

Whether it weakens them or is uncomfortable or they have better things to do at home etc they seem to normally stay in the warp, but they can seem to get around that if they feel the need.

Some random person on some random planet who is proud of their ability to fight would be better not calling out a challenge to any who might hear - just in case something does hear and chooses to respond, the chances of that responce are low but higher then zero.

[Fyraltari]

Regardless of whether its impossible or merely extremely hard for daemons to manifest in large numbers without mortal help, it reamins true that they wouldn't have the Traitor Legions, the Dark Mechnaicus, who-knows-how-many renegade Guard regiments and astartes chapters if it weren't for the Imperium, and that those forces certainly seem to be their main ones. The Black Crusades aren't lead by Be'lakor.

[dancrilis]

Regardless of whether its impossible or merely extremely hard for daemons to manifest in large numbers without mortal help

Well I would say it is not impossible* anyway Ix'thar'ganix seeded worlds with lesser daemons who stayed on them for thousands of years manipulating events, and they personally opened a warp rift and lead a daemonic invasion to capture the powers of one oracle (although opening the rift was difficult apparently).
Tz'Keth'K'Zar gave visions to psykers tricking them into thinking he was the Emperor and then greatly enhanced their powers, and only manifested when they called to the Emperor for help, at which point he transformed them into a warp rift - so again he wasn't actually summoned (although the barrier was likely weak).

*of course chaos does not tend to follow the rules - even their own rules - so even when something is stated as absolute exceptions are likely plentiful.

, it reamins true that they wouldn't have the Traitor Legions, the Dark Mechnaicus, who-knows-how-many renegade Guard regiments and astartes chapters if it weren't for the Imperium, and that those forces certainly seem to be their main ones. The Black Crusades aren't lead by Be'lakor.

I don't think those forces really matter (much) to the discussion on Imperial control - the citizens of the Imperium are not being oppressed to avoid bringing the Traitor Legions down on themselves it is so that they don't have hope, despair, rage, joy etc and effectively exist in a state of apathy as such is less likely to attract attention from the immaterium.

The mortal forces of chaos are effectively the scouting party, testing the defences and setting the stage for the real forces - without the Imperium the forces of Chaos would want a different scouting party but likely such would be acquired without much effort.

[Trafalgar]

Adding ten years to a 39 year old an actor isn't exactly hard anyway. A little bit of grey hair will about do it.

Hopefully, using makeup to add 10 years to Henry Cavill will be much easier than using CGI to remove his moustache.

[pendell]

I gotta ask, why are you insisting on calling it "The Empire" instead of "The Imperium"?

Because "The Imperium of Man" sounds a lot like the "Empire of Man" in Jerry Pournelle's Codominium universe. They are both religious dictatorships which claim to be the sole legitimate government for all humanity, and when I'm typing in a hurry I can confuse the two. Imperium and Empire are synonyms in English, in any event.

Also, the solution is to educate people about Chaos and magic so that they understand why it's better to stay away, to treat your citizens with decency so that Chaos doesn't have much to offer to them, to not to go to war every five goddam minutes, to cooperates with the aliens that can be reasoned with like the Eldar, the Necrons and the Tau (the Orks and the Tyrannids are lost causes, frankly) and to advance technological research to find countermeasures to Chaos and FTL that doesn't rely on the warp (the Necrons have both of those things so it's definitely possible).

I don't know if these next quotes are reliable, but human encounters with the Eldar have been a lot less friendly than those they had in Tolkien's world.

Trust not in their appearance, for the Eldar are as alien to good, honest men as the vile Tyranids and savage Orks. There is no understanding them for there is nothing to understand - they are a random force in the universe.

It is too easy for an Eldar to embrace the obscene virtues of Chaos, for Slaanesh is nothing more than a manifestation of the Eldar mind in its most wild and unconstrained form. Human morality is meaningless to the Eldar, and to the dark side of the Eldar mind all live is to be expended at a whim. Cruelty and generosity are but the impulse of a moment. Beauty and sensuality are virtues that can be expressed in bloodshed just as easily as in song. To an unfettered Eldar mind there is neither sanity nor madness, but merely a wave of perfect existence fulfilled by its own savage momentum.

Eldrad is the greatest among us. He is the sun which eclipses the light of our stars. He is Ulthwé and the fate of our kind rests in his hands. His eyes are the keenest, no detail goes unnoticed. Four thousand runes can he cast, guiding our path through torment and war, death and salvation. He is the pathfinder, the seeker, the true guide. Even your race has trembled before his might, though you may not have known it. It was he who guided us to the Ork known as Ghazghkull, and commanded us to steer his path to your world of Armageddon. Ten thousand Eldar lives would have been lost if he had not done so. What sacrifice is a million humans for such a cause?

He knows your affairs better than you do yourself. He warned that weakling seer you call Emperor of the treachery of Horus and the strife which would engulf us, just as it engulfed the rest of the galaxy, but your arrogance deafened you to his words. Your stupidity almost destroyed the galaxy, yet you never knew how close the forces of light were to our ultimate defeat. He saw the Great Devourer and warned our kin on Iyanden, even before they had neared our galaxy.

To him all futures are laid out, just as your crude implements of torture are laid out on the cold metal of that shelf. You say we are random and capricious, we say you are vulgar and idiotic. Some of you call us your enemies. All races are our enemy in time. Some of you call us your allies. You are not allies, any more than a butcher’s knife is his ally. You are tools, nothing more. To be used and expended to protect our race, that is your fate.

Your kind think you are so magnificent, yet even now, at the nadir of our power, we can manipulate you, turn you to our ends, as easily as you might pull a trigger and fire a gun. Our time will come again, Eldrad has promised us. Once more you upstart Mon-keigh [subject spits] shall kneel before our power! This time we will not be so lenient! We will exterminate you, every world, every vessel, every one of you! Eldrad has seen the stars stained red with your blood, and it pleases him!

You think us weak, but we will be your doom, children of Earth.

And again, human factions outside of the Imperium worked it out better than it did.

The best rebuttal of this is the simple fact that the Imperium is still around and those other factions aren't. Yes, the Imperium may have destroyed them, but the Imperium is one peer faction among several. If these smaller human groups can't repel the Empire, they can't repel the Tyrannids, Chaos Legions, etc. etc. either.

The Imperium survives, they do not. So all in all, I'd say the Imperium must be doing something right .. in-universe. I still consider them utterly abhorrent.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't know if these next quotes are reliable, but human encounters with the Eldar have been a lot less friendly than those they had in Tolkien's world.

It's important to remember that the Eldar place absolutely no value on any other life compared to their own.

If a billion mon-keigh had to die to save a single Eldar soul from She-who-thirsts, that's not even a choice to them.

[awa]

The best rebuttal of this is the simple fact that the Imperium is still around and those other factions aren't. Yes, the Imperium may have destroyed them, but the Imperium is one peer faction among several. If these smaller human groups can't repel the Empire, they can't repel the Tyrannids, Chaos Legions, etc. etc. either.

The Imperium survives, they do not. So all in all, I'd say the Imperium must be doing something right .. in-universe. I still consider them utterly abhorrent.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Definitely
Most were destroyed almost casually with only a small fraction of the Imperiums military force.

A key thing to note is that war-hammer is not the vision of a single person or group it is a thing that has existed for decades with vast amounts of wildly contradictory material and outright retcons, depending on which bits of the cannon you read almost any perspective of the setting could be found.

[Sapphire Guard]

There are also no good factions in, say, Cyberpunk or Vampire, but that doesn't mean you can't tell stories in those settings. Space Marine made a great game out of being at the coalface of an ork invasion, uniting most characters in the desire not to be eaten by orks, without compromising the setting.

[TheSummoner]

Amazon being attached to this gives me a bad feeling and the only thing that's cause for any degree of cautious optimism is Henry Cavill's position as executive producer. Whether the show has a chance or not, really comes down to how much creative control he has over it. There's plenty of recent evidence that Amazon simply does not care about staying accurate to the source material in their adaptations, while at the same time Cavill himself is known to care about keeping true to the source material and is also a fan of 40k. I wouldn't call myself hopeful, but my outlook is better for this than it has been for many shows or movies that have come out lately. Time will tell.

[Fyraltari]

Because "The Imperium of Man" sounds a lot like the "Empire of Man" in Jerry Pournelle's Codominium universe. They are both religious dictatorships which claim to be the sole legitimate government for all humanity, and when I'm typing in a hurry I can confuse the two. Imperium and Empire are synonyms in English, in any event.

Okay, it's just a tad confusing because "The Empire of Man" is the main faction in the Fantasy setting.

I don't know if these next quotes are reliable, but human encounters with the Eldar have been a lot less friendly than those they had in Tolkien's world.

Yes I know, this isn't called PeaceHammer. But I did say "can be reasonned with" not" friendly". It's entirely possible to find common ground with the Tau, the Necrons and the Eldar. Your own quotes there point out that Eldar tried to warn the Imperium about the Horus Heresy and they just refused to listen.

The best rebuttal of this is the simple fact that the Imperium is still around and those other factions aren't.

The Leagues of Votann are older than the Imperium (probably, it's hard to tell) and they're still around.

Yes, the Imperium may have destroyed them, but the Imperium is one peer faction among several. If these smaller human groups can't repel the Empire, they can't repel the Tyrannids, Chaos Legions, etc. etc. either.

There wouldn't be Chaos Legions if not for the Imperium. Orks have been everywhere for as long as Mankind has had interstellar travel so clearly they could deal with them. And the Imperium can't deal with Tyrannids either. Like, it's straight-up said in the fluff that there are more Tyrannid organisms than bullets in the galaxy. Genestealer cults would have harder time of doing their thing in a society not as corrupt and repressive as the Imperium, though.

The Imperium survives, they do not. So all in all, I'd say the Imperium must be doing something right .. in-universe.

That's such a weird argument. You're familiar with The Man in the High Castle? if not, the only important thing is that it's a world where the Axis won WWII and managed to take over the entire world. Would you say "The Nazis survive, the Allies do not. So all in all, I'd say the Nazis must be doing something right... in-universe"?

Like "The Imperium are the best at defending Humanity against aliens and demons, as proven by the fact that they destroyed most other human factions" isn't a very convincing argument.

It's important to remember that the Eldar place absolutely no value on any other life compared to their own.

If a billion mon-keigh had to die to save a single Eldar soul from She-who-thirsts, that's not even a choice to them.

Which is to be constrasted with the Imperium which places absolutely no values on even the lives of their own. If the commanders of the Imperial Guard have to sacrifice a billion men to kill a few Eldars, they'll do it.

It's always funny to me when people argue that the Xenos are jsut as bad as the Imperium because they do to other people less than a tenth of what the Imperium does to its own. Frankly, can you give me a reason why the average human would be better off under the Imperium than as a Gue'vasa, a Kin or even under the rule of a Chaos Lord?

[hamishspence]

The description of the Men Of Stone (created around M21) sounds very much like the Leagues of Votann:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Men_of_Stone

Artificially created (all organic Leagues of Votann members are cloned), lack of "being affected by daemons", and the building of Men of Iron, fit perfectly. The difference being that theirs are not enemies to them. Perhaps the decision to make them citizens and part of the Leagues, was what kept the Leagues from being destroyed by their Men of Iron - now known as Ironkin.

[pendell]

Which is to be constrasted with the Imperium which places absolutely no values on even the lives of their own. If the commanders of the Imperial Guard have to sacrifice a billion men to kill a few Eldars, they'll do it.

It's always funny to me when people argue that the Xenos are jsut as bad as the Imperium because they do to other people less than a tenth of what the Imperium does to its own. Frankly, can you give me a reason why the average human would be better off under the Imperium than as a Gue'vasa, a Kin or even under the rule of a Chaos Lord?

Here's where I have to ask a lore question because I'm not familiar with it.

Just how large is the Imperium? And how many of those worlds are, at any time, a battleground or the subject of an exterminatus?

I haven't seen that part of the lore, but if it's anything like the star wars universe, I expect there are many worlds, perhaps millions, where all of this is nothing but a bedtime story for the children and the subject of endless commissar lectures which the populace sleeps through. Like in Orwell's 1984 -- things are terrible in the theaters of war where the three factions fight a never-ending stalemate, but the entire point of the 1984 world order is these regions are relatively small compared to the massive territories ruled over by the factions. To Smith and everyone he knows, war is something that happens on a telescreen, the subject of a ten minute's hate. He doesn't experience air raids or Eurasian tank raids. The world of 1984 is in state of war not all that different from the real-world cold war; a war in which there are firm rules confining the various conflicts to peripheral theaters, not the all-out wars of the 1940s.

Given the fact that the Imperium has been in a stalemate for centuries if not millenia by this point in the story, I would expect it to be a similar situation -- you would have a thin slice of worlds and space in which the Imperium sacrifices lives by the billion to secure the peace of the thousands of worlds and trillions (quadrillions? quintillions?) of human citizens who know nothing of it. Who pay exorbitant war taxes and labor the whole lives for the war machine but who are nonetheless living more-or-less peaceful lives.

That fragile peace is the reason the Imperium exists ; to provide a refuge and sanctuary from war for the human race. And to a commissar or inquisitor, that fragile peace is worth any cost and any sacrifice. Worth both dying for and killing for.

Again, I'm willing to be corrected if the lore doesn't work that way. But if you're dealing with a society which is locked in a stalemated war for such a long time I would expect there to be some "safe" region which supplies the fighting troops. If the entire Imperium was under threat at all times they should have already collapsed centuries ago. I see it sort of like the Roman Empire circa 200 CE -- war on all the peripheries but invisible to the vast majority of citizens in the interior provinces, who experience pax romanum.

UPDATE: According to this the Imperium consists of more than a million worlds and has a population , according to extrapolation , of 8 quadrillion citizens. 8 THOUSAND THOUSAND BILLION people. And that's just the Hive Worlds.

Again: How many of these are experiencing war at any time?

To us, sacrificing an entire world and a billion people is a catastrophe because we only live on the one world. But if you're in the Imperium and you're weighing up a single world in the scales against a million worlds and 8 quadrillion citizens -- well, suddenly a billion lives looks like a bargain, if it means we buy 8 quadrillion citizens a breathing space of peace. Compared to a quadrillion, a billion is less than one percent of one percent, not even a rounding error.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[dancrilis]

Frankly, can you give me a reason why the average human would be better off under the Imperium than as a Gue'vasa, a Kin or even under the rule of a Chaos Lord?

Due to these groups having less negativity towards dealing with xenos races they are more likely to deal with the Dark Eldar - and the average human likely is better off being as far from the Dark Eldar as possible.

Just how large is the Imperium? And how many of those worlds are, at any time, a battleground or the subject of an exterminatus?

It depends on the story being told.

Saying a thousand worlds are destroyed daily be the inquisition due to filing errors where someone put the world in the heresy folder instead of the non-heresy folder, is likely to most people a caricature of the setting.
Saying the the inquisition destroys a world maybe once a century and only when it is beyond salvation (daemon world, tyranid infestation etc) is likely low according to most lore.

There are indications (which I think are more modern) that there are ~1,000,000 human populated imperial worlds - but this seems fairly low to me, particularly as the Imperium itself has no clue as they lose worlds all the time (the routes to them cut off by warp storms) and they find worlds all the time (Rogue Traders do have a job to do after all).

So I think the best answer you will get is they have 'lots' of worlds, and 'very few' of them (as compared of 'lots') are destroyed with any frequency by their own side (or any side).

As for the average imperial citizen they will go through life never having a chance to burn the heretic, kill the mutant or purge the unclean.

[hamishspence]

I see it sort of like the Roman Empire circa 200 CE -- war on all the peripheries but invisible to the vast majority of citizens in the interior provinces, who experience pax romanum.

The Imperium is pretty thinly spread. The whole thing could be said to be peripheries to some extent. Even quite close to Terra there will be large areas of non-Imperial worlds between the Imperial ones.

[snowblizz]

Here's where I have to ask a lore question because I'm not familiar with it.

Just how large is the Imperium? And how many of those worlds are, at any time, a battleground or the subject of an exterminatus?

I haven't seen that part of the lore, but if it's anything like the star wars universe, I expect there are many worlds, perhaps millions, where all of this is nothing but a bedtime story for the children and the subject of endless commissar lectures which the populace sleeps through. Like in Orwell's 1984 -- things are terrible in the theaters of war where the three factions fight a never-ending stalemate, but the entire point of the 1984 world order is these regions are relatively small compared to the massive territories ruled over by the factions. To Smith and everyone he knows, war is something that happens on a telescreen, the subject of a ten minute's hate. He doesn't experience air raids or Eurasian tank raids. The world of 1984 is in state of war not all that different from the real-world cold war; a war in which there are firm rules confining the various conflicts to peripheral theaters, not the all-out wars of the 1940s.

Given the fact that the Imperium has been in a stalemate for centuries if not millenia by this point in the story, I would expect it to be a similar situation -- you would have a thin slice of worlds and space in which the Imperium sacrifices lives by the billion to secure the peace of the thousands of worlds and trillions (quadrillions? quintillions?) of human citizens who know nothing of it. Who pay exorbitant war taxes and labor the whole lives for the war machine but who are nonetheless living more-or-less peaceful lives.

That fragile peace is the reason the Imperium exists ; to provide a refuge and sanctuary from war for the human race. And to a commissar or inquisitor, that fragile peace is worth any cost and any sacrifice. Worth both dying for and killing for.

Again, I'm willing to be corrected if the lore doesn't work that way. But if you're dealing with a society which is locked in a stalemated war for such a long time I would expect there to be some "safe" region which supplies the fighting troops. If the entire Imperium was under threat at all times they should have already collapsed centuries ago. I see it sort of like the Roman Empire circa 200 CE -- war on all the peripheries but invisible to the vast majority of citizens in the interior provinces, who experience pax romanum.

UPDATE: According to this the Imperium consists of more than a million worlds and has a population , according to extrapolation , of 8 quadrillion citizens. 8 THOUSAND THOUSAND BILLION people. And that's just the Hive Worlds.

Again: How many of these are experiencing war at any time?

To us, sacrificing an entire world and a billion people is a catastrophe because we only live on the one world. But if you're in the Imperium and you're weighing up a single world in the scales against a million worlds and 8 quadrillion citizens -- well, suddenly a billion lives looks like a bargain, if it means we buy 8 quadrillion citizens a breathing space of peace. Compared to a quadrillion, a billion is less than one percent of one percent, not even a rounding error.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

So the problem is that there isn't really any "safe space". The nature of Warhammer 40k, and it is specifically written so, allows war to come to any place at any time. Not every world is always at war, but all of it are under threat, internally or externally. And those who aren't actively at war are usually producing resources and feeding the ones who are. The threat always exists. Any day the planet you live on can be subjected to a threat that was completely unforeseen and a massive Space Hulk filled with millions of orks just popped into existence at the fringes of your solarsystem. If you are lucky. The Imperium is incomprehensibly large, but stretched over incomprehensible amount of space as well with a lot of "dead" space in between the concentrations. If the Warp wasn't such a fickle and dangerous place to navigate, there just is no assurance you will end up where you want to go usually, other than the shortest most stablest routes, the Imperium would have fallen along time ago. The Imperium is basically everywhere, but also beset from all sides. Also don't be fooled by the "stalemate". Vast "territories" are lost or regain constantly. Entire (sub-)sectors can be cut off, lost to invasion and eventually retaken.

[Fyraltari]

Like in Orwell's 1984 -- things are terrible in the theaters of war where the three factions fight a never-ending stalemate, but the entire point of the 1984 world order is these regions are relatively small compared to the massive territories ruled over by the factions. To Smith and everyone he knows, war is something that happens on a telescreen, the subject of a ten minute's hate. He doesn't experience air raids or Eurasian tank raids. The world of 1984 is in state of war not all that different from the real-world cold war; a war in which there are firm rules confining the various conflicts to peripheral theaters, not the all-out wars of the 1940s.

That's not... What!? Have you read 1984, because that is very much not the point.

For Winston Smith, the war is real, London is under semi-permanent bombing and it is theorized in-universe (by Julia) that the Party is the one bombing the city to ensure compliance with the regime in the name of winning the war. O'Brien, of the Innee Party says that the three world powers all adhere to the same ideology under different name and only keep the war going to control their respective populations. And given what doublethink is, it's entirely possible that Eurasia and Eastasia don't even actually exist and that Oceania covers anywhere between all of the globe and as little as Airstrip One and made the war up.

The point isn't that Winston Smith lives a relatively cozy existence far away from the war (he really doesn't, his life is appalling at every level) it's that "the War" is something the Regime keeps going to legitimize its uncessary abuses.

Given the fact that the Imperium has been in a stalemate for centuries if not millenia by this point in the story, I would expect it to be a similar situation -- you would have a thin slice of worlds and space in which the Imperium sacrifices lives by the billion to secure the peace of the thousands of worlds and trillions (quadrillions? quintillions?) of human citizens who know nothing of it. Who pay exorbitant war taxes and labor the whole lives for the war machine but who are nonetheless living more-or-less peaceful lives.

If you can call a life of constant toil, terrified of your superiors who do little to nothing to protect you against gangs and literal monsters but while execute an entire factory for demanding a 17-hour workday "peace". The highborns of the hive cities literally go to the underhives to hunt humans for sport.
Also every planet has to pay a tithe which includes people for the Guard, the Astartes or to be devoured by the Golden Throne

That fragile peace is the reason the Imperium exists ; to provide a refuge and sanctuary from war for the human race.

No, it does not. The Imperium is constantly involved in wars of conquest and agression. The Imperium attacked the Tau not the other way around.

And to a commissar or inquisitor, that fragile peace is worth any cost and any sacrifice. Worth both dying for and killing for.

Nope, to an inquisitor or a commissar, the existence of anything but humans in servive to the God-Emperor is a personal affront. It is the Imperium stated goal to purge the galaxy of anything but themselves. They just don't have the means to do it, but not for lack of trying. Any human life not spent in the constant struggle is seen as worthless, wasted or heretical.n

Again, I'm willing to be corrected if the lore doesn't work that way. But if you're dealing with a society which is locked in a stalemated war for such a long time I would expect there to be some "safe" region which supplies the fighting troops. If the entire Imperium was under threat at all times they should have already collapsed centuries ago.

Yeah, it should. The kore of the games where big man in armor beats tank doesn't have very realistic logistics. Big surprise.

I see it sort of like the Roman Empire circa 200 CE -- war on all the peripheries but invisible to the vast majority of citizens in the interior provinces, who experience pax romanum.

Sorry, but I have to:
In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, there is no Pax Romanum. There is only war.

To us, sacrificing an entire world and a billion people is a catastrophe because we only live on the one world. But if you're in the Imperium and you're weighing up a single world in the scales against a million worlds and 8 quadrillion citizens -- well, suddenly a billion lives looks like a bargain, if it means we buy 8 quadrillion citizens a breathing space of peace. Compared to a quadrillion, a billion is less than one percent of one percent, not even a rounding error.

Which is funny because the Imperium actually does lose planet due to rounding error. Damn, it's like they're bad at this or something. This is a false equivalency by the way. Not burning up a planet does not condemn the entire Imperium. The inquisition simply will not brook anyone existing outside of the scope of the Imperium and they don't have the manpower necessary to retake the planet available. Or the inquisitor in question was on a power trip, which given what they're like is just as probable as the other thing.

[snowblizz]

Which is funny because the Imperium actually does lose planet due to rounding error. Damn, it's like they're bad at this or something. This is a false equivalency by the way. Not burning up a planet does not condemn the entire Imperium. The inquisition simply will not brook anyone existing outside of the scope of the Imperium and they don't have the manpower necessary to retake the planet available. Or the inquisitor in question was on a power trip, which given what they're like is just as probable as the other thing.

It's not just a planet here or there sometimes. The gambit to turn away Hivefleet... ermm Behemoth maybe it was, involved depopulating an entire swath of space to turn the hivefleet towards Ork infested space. Which in theory is brilliant plan until you consider that whoever wins that war isn't going to be a veeeeery difficult opposition. But in the short term it diverts the hivefleet and at least it's eating another enemy instead of some hundreds oh human worlds on it's way towards Terra.
There is a lot of short term this might fu us in the future things the Imperium does because it's expedient in the now.

[hamishspence]

It's not just a planet here or there sometimes. The gambit to turn away Hivefleet... ermm Behemoth maybe it was, involved depopulating an entire swath of space to turn the hivefleet towards Ork infested space.

Hive Fleet Leviathan. The guy responsible (Lord Inquisitor Kryptmann) didn't do so to divert the fleet, but to slow the fleet (and he was declared a heretic for it by the Inquisition at large, and a warrant put out for his arrest.)

Diverting the fleet required a different thing - capturing Genestealers, taking them to Ork space, and dropping them off.

[GloatingSwine]

Hive Fleet Leviathan. The guy responsible (Lord Inquisitor Kryptmann) didn't do so to divert the fleet, but to slow the fleet (and he was declared a heretic for it by the Inquisition at large, and a warrant put out for his arrest.)

Although that was possibly due to the number of mail-squigs they received thanking him for "da best present evver!"