WH40K coming to Amazon stream

[Eldan]

I recognize how my own upbringing and environment has biased my morality. I won't claim it's the be all, end all.

Here is a hypothetical. Is eating your own children good or bad? What if tomorrow we discover an alien race that greets us with (perfect English) "We wish for peace and that you eat your children". Upon inspection the translation isn't faulty. They do in fact eat most of their children. Are they evil?

Hm. Sibling cannibalism isn't rare among the animal kingdom, but I can't think of many instances of paternal cannibalism. I may have instead gone with "may your children eat each other".

If their children ate each other after hatching and that was the only way for them to survive... probably not evil. But, well, if they have enough technology to travel to other planets, they should be able to solve a nutrition issue.

[Eldan]

Look here is the real problem with the Imperium: no matter what anyone says, they don't actually do what say they do, or at least what people think they do.

I think that's the big one. The entire point of the parody is that the Imperium does not work. You could write a version of the Imperium that is coldly utilitarian and sacrifices a hundred planets to defeat the tyranids because they have to, that hunt down psykers to save their population. But that's not the Imperium GW has given us.

They aren't utilitarian. They are religious fanatics. Guilliman isn't, and he's trying to turn things around, but he's just one person, in a universe that has decades of communication lag between outlying provinces. Going too far is most of what the Imperium does.

And not only that, it's not working. The galaxy is torn in half, chaos warbands are running roughshod over at least half of it, the Tyranids are continually advancing, the necrons are waking up and during all of it, the imperial leadership is bickering like children and hundreds of paranoid factions are backstabbing each other. They started out fascist, became a theocracy and then went downhill from there. The entire history of the last 10'000 years is the Imperium slowly sliding into oblivion and the only reason it's taking so long is that a corpse that big takes a long time to decay.

[Fyraltari]

Quite right. The Imperium is coasting on the momentum gained from the Age of Technology (and to a lesser extent the Great Crusade), not its own qualities.

Furthermore, that's the inevitable result of The Emperor's design: a fascist society can never improve or course correct, it can only get worse and worse. It is simply not equipped to deal with anything in an effective fashion.

[-D-]

The thing is, all moral questions exist in the same environment.

Does our universe contain actual Psykers? Does it contain resurrection tech? If not. Then it's not the same environment.

I think that's the big one. The entire point of the parody is that the Imperium does not work. You could write a version of the Imperium that is coldly utilitarian

Well there are two layers. Meta layer: Grimdark sells. Games Workshop keeps doing what makes money.

In universe: They did start like that, they were ruthless but efficient. That was around 30k. Inquisition started as few good incorruptible men hand picked by Malcador. They ended as yet another corrupted organization of the Imperium.

And not only that, it's not working. The galaxy is torn in half, chaos warbands are running roughshod over at least half of it, the Tyranids are continually advancing, the necrons are waking up and during all of it, the imperial leadership is bickering like children and hundreds of paranoid factions are backstabbing each other.

You're forgetting status Quo is permanent. GW is famous for letting hope sparks then to extinguish it and offer another hope. At end of the day what sells gets updated lore. See poor Ynnari being shafted for not selling enough

For almost verything you listed there is an upside.
Galaxy is torn in half an Chaos is rearing its ugly head but Warp increase also Empowered the Big E. Tyranids and Nekrons have returned but Silent King is dead set on murdering Tyranids. Imperial leadership bickering and backstabbing is just a day that end with day.

Quite right. The Imperium is coasting on the momentum gained from the Age of Technology (and to a lesser extent the Great Crusade), not its own qualities.

That's not how timelines in Warhammer 40k worked. Age of Technology > Age of Strife > Imperium. They didn't coast. They rebuilt from the Age of Strife.

Age of Strife is basically Mad Max.

[InvisibleBison]

Does our universe contain actual Psykers? Does it contain resurrection tech? If not. Then it's not the same environment.

If you want me to agree with your position, you're going to have to provide some sort of argument as to why it is correct instead of simply asserting it.

[-D-]

If you want me to agree with your position, you're going to have to provide some sort of argument as to why it is correct instead of simply asserting it.

I told you why. They aren't the same environment.

Reasons they aren't same - tech levels of Warhammer 40k and Earth 2023 are not the same. And even basic physics isn't the same.

---

Anyway, was anything else revealed about WH40K project? I hope it's a Ciaphas Cane rendition. I want to see Black Adder in Spess.

[Lord Raziere]

Does our universe contain actual Psykers? Does it contain resurrection tech? If not. Then it's not the same environment.

here is the thing: Psykers have nothing to do with why the situation 40k is so horrible actually. killing them does nothing but treat a symptom of the actual problem.

like the psykers are just victims, they aren't responsible for demons possessing them. the reason for demons possessing them is partly because the Eldar screwed up whent hey partied so hard they created Slaanesh, and partly because the ancient Necrontyr and Eldar screwed up 65 million year ago fighting each other because the old ones wouldn't just give the Necrontyr their immortality or help them with their blasted radioactive planet, that old war is what made the other three Chaos gods exist, probably, and for the vast majority of 40k's existence, the Warp Was Not As Bad As It Is Now.

like here is the thing, the Materium and Immaterium used to be closer together, then at some point the Eldar and Necrons decided that fighting each other was no longer worth it, made tech to separate the realms. but back then the Warp was calm, peaceful, and even after all that fighting wasn't as bad as it is now. like sure it got a bit worse but nothing that couldn't be controlled. Like, if psykers didn't exist, there would still be rifts between the Materium and Immaterium that would allow daemons to come through, and there would still be sorcerers/witch reading stuff from books that could do rituals to summon daemons without any psykers being born. psykers are just doing naturally what everyone has the potential to do.

then Slaanesh happened, but that took like an insanely long time to happen. like the period where the Eldar started to make Slaanesh last like thousands of years. the kind of corruption that has happen to make the Warp requires an extremely long time to really take effect. like none of us would make something like Slaanesh in our lifetime, and it took many many lifetimes for the Eldar to get to the point where they can make Slaanesh then actually go about making them. we're basically looking at this universe worst ten thousand years they've ever had, and all the times before it weren't nearly as bad as it is now, except maybe the War in Heaven but we don't have records of what that war was actually like, so we don't know what went down. and the state of the Warp is kind of the accumulated horribleness of the galaxy going uncleaned and unaddressed for too long, its not something that can be solved by just doing some quick thing with the psykers, they're just the conduits through the source of badness flows out, not the source themselves.

if anything the Warp is an environmental message and how one man no matter how "genius" or "great" they are, can't solve that. The Emperor tried, but his plans got cut off half way through before he put in the rules that would really work to even start to fix it, having only treated the symptoms with his plan of disallowing religion, because the Chaos God don't really NEED religion to exist, they just like it because it gets more emotional bang for their buck, provides focus for the emotions, feelings and ideas they feed on to get their energy more efficiently. like all these Imperials running around, shooting any heretic they see? thats all kneejerk symptom treatment. Khorne doesn't care as long as he gets enough of his battle-thirst, rage and courage emotion juices to be satisfied. to actually get to the point where they could solve all this, the best time for humanity to start would've been ten thousand years ago, trying to actually innovate and figure out their problems and what is causing the Warp to go bad rather than mindlessly follow some dude's last orders forever. they didn't and when they inevitably get destroyed and scattered across the galaxy to become the next Eldar? I'll play the smallest violin in the world.

like the Emperor despite all his powers and supposed genius, had all the all too common desire to want to control everything to the way he wanted things to go and that never works. doesn't matter what the environment is, because the lesson is ultimately the same: force, mindless dogma and kill everything different doesn't work. because all that even when the things your killing are legit evil, are just...the appearance of thing and not the underlying root cause of the thing. Orks? sure you can kill them but the real problem is burning the spores after which the Imperium doesn't always do or knows to do. Tyranids? sure, you can kill them but the real problem is figuring out how to stop their biomass-run war machine so that they lose more biomass than they gain from fighting people.

because turns out, the way to win a war? isn't by grabbing an axe and shouting blood for the blood god like a lunatic and killing as much as the enemy as possible no matter what some Khornate cultist would have you believe, and that some of the most important parts of warfare is what occurs off the battlefield, as Guilliman understands with all his logistics and organization. To win, it requires a clear concrete objective, a plan, and direction that can be reasonably accomplished.

But the Imperium doesn't have that (maybe Guilliman can give it one before he meets whatever horrid fate he gets, but who knows with that?) What it has is a techno-barbaric theocratic space oligarchy is way too oppressive in some ways and way too permissive in others, playing symptom whack-a-mole with the galaxy, and psykers are one of the symptoms because they're just the gate for the demons to get in- the real problem is the warp and no amount of symptom-treating absolves them of failing to solve the actual problem. Because turns out, a society built on ignorance, superstition and hatred of what is different is bad at figuring out what they actually need to do to solve a problem- regardless of what that problem actually is. It doesn't matter what the real solution to solve their problems turns out to be, because the Imperium won't investigate properly what is needed to solve them. Guilliman doesn't have the time, he is just trying to figure how to patch things up so that Imperium has some minimal functionality to it.

like, the entire problem with psykers is analogous to the Imperium in their ignorance having a broken water system filled with sewage then blaming their sinks for spewing out brown liquid and being superstitous and hateful of all sinks, so they ruthlessly control the sinks, ever watchful of them so that when they spew out brown liquid they can shoot them. nevermind actually getting some plumbers and going to investigate what went wrong, just keep shooting those sinks until the Emperor somehow comes back and magically fixes all of it. Because don't you know? the secrets of clean water is something only the God-Emperor is allowed to know, he said so, don't you have faith in him? be thankful for your ignorance and keep drinking the brown liquid until he decides you deserve to drink clean water, citizen, he still hasn't so clearly you haven't prayed enough and have done something wrong to deserve this suffering, so clearly the solution is for you to take this flagellant and whip yourself so that he will someday decide we are worthy or we will kill you for not faithfully whipping yourself for whatever sin made him decide you deserve to drink brown liquid instead of water. (I jest, but I wouldn't be surprised if there at least one world in the Imperium that unironically preaches this)

[Mechalich]

Well there are two layers. Meta layer: Grimdark sells. Games Workshop keeps doing what makes money.

It goes beyond grimdark simply selling. For the purposes of a tabletop wargame, it is massively beneficial for every faction to plausibly be able to fight every other faction, simply because most players will only ever invest to the point of fielding a single army. This is hugely advantageous in small markets where the regular 40K group might be 4-8 people. This generates the grimdark because only in a grimdark universe does this war of all-against-all setup make even a lick of sense.

There are parallels in other game formats. MtG, while not quite grimdark by most standards, is extremely messy and gruesome and contains many planes with multi-party perpetual conflicts even though most players of the card game don't really care about the story.

[InvisibleBison]

I told you why. They aren't the same environment.

Reasons they aren't same - tech levels of Warhammer 40k and Earth 2023 are not the same. And even basic physics isn't the same.

Sure, there are differences. But why do those differences affect moral decision making?

[-D-]

here is the thing: Psykers have nothing to do with why the situation 40k is so horrible actually. killing them does nothing but treat a symptom of the actual problem.

They kinda do, just not Human Psykers. Eldars and Old Ones are a big reason why the situation is screwed up. They used their powers to bring Warp Entities i.e. Eldar Gods into Materium, so much that at times War In Heaven was paused at times to fight the increasing appearance of Warp Entities. Destroying Old Ones didn't help and neither did Khaine's Temper Tantrum which indirectly caused Eldar downfall.

Spoiler: Khaine's Temper Tantrum

Show

Khaine tried to kill Eldar due to the prophecy they would destroy him. So Khaine decided to murder Eldars first. Other gods and Eldar intervened, making Khaine's gate to prevent Eldar Gods from entering Materium.

Without their Gods, Eldars fell to depravity and eventually gave birth to Slaanesh that would have destroyed Khaine if Khorne didn't shatter him first.

When Emperor became an active player he had to limit interactions with Warp. His plan was to starve the Warp Gods of worship, but by then most worlds that survived Psychic awakening were rabid anti-Psykers. He was given a very **** hand.

Dealing with Warp entities is a very, very bad idea because the only things left were at that moment Four Massive Warp Leeches and their armies, few non-existent Chaos gods, few barely existing non-Chaos gods. To see how badly Psykers can get played see Thousand Sons Chapter. And these weren't any Psykers, these were the finest Space Marines Psyker led by the most powerful psyker Primarch. What chances does a run-of-the-mill Psyker have?

Spoiler: Thousand Sons Chapter

Show

Essentially noble Psykers, using their warp powers for good. And talking to Warp entities that shared their knowledge, and even served as friendly familiars. Sadly they had a horrible mutation rate, so their Primarch gave one of his eyes to halt the mutation rate. Pretty wholesome

Then came the anti-Psykers Council, led by Russ and Mortarion. Did Magnus listen then? Ofc not. He was too proud of his abilities.

When Magnus fails to cure Horus' corruption he tries to warn Emperor, but can't break a giant barrier preventing warp communication. With the help of a warp entity, Magnus manages to deliver news of Horus' Betrayal to the Emperor only to realize he got duped by Tzeentch. By breaking the wall, he ensured Emperor will be tied to deal with Terra's failed Webway.

Then during Russ's botched attempt to bring/kill Magnus, those friendly familiars turn on their former masters and cause a cluster****, leading Magnus to accept Tzeentch's deal and move the Planet of Sorcerers'

like the psykers are just victims, they aren't responsible for demons possessing them.

And you can't treat the disease if the infected can summon an army of hell just by existing. Like best you can hope is you put them into a room with some creepy Blanks that will slowly eat away at Psyker's sanity and/or try to teach him to serve the Imperium either as a battery pack for the Emperor or caster for Imperium.

Sure, there are differences. But why do those differences affect moral decision making?

See how easy Psykers are manipulated above. You are a person living on some relatively rural world during Age of Strife and you encounter a Psyker. Do you?
A) Kill him
B) Let him live and doom him and the planet he's on?

It's like a trolley problem where you can either kill that guy, or that one guy + millions more, and if you choose option two, that guy may turn into another trolley (become a corrupted cultist/daemon).

To call it a non-brainer moral problem is putting it mildly.

[Eldan]

It goes beyond grimdark simply selling. For the purposes of a tabletop wargame, it is massively beneficial for every faction to plausibly be able to fight every other faction, simply because most players will only ever invest to the point of fielding a single army. This is hugely advantageous in small markets where the regular 40K group might be 4-8 people. This generates the grimdark because only in a grimdark universe does this war of all-against-all setup make even a lick of sense.

There are parallels in other game formats. MtG, while not quite grimdark by most standards, is extremely messy and gruesome and contains many planes with multi-party perpetual conflicts even though most players of the card game don't really care about the story.

Yeah, that's one of the problems Warhammer fantasy had. Arguably, yes, the least of its problems, but it was one:

Several of the factions were... too good. High elves and most human factions could resolve their problems diplomatically, most of the time. Same for imperials and dwarves. At least on the higher levels, I'd imagine a dwarven vengeance expedition against some minor noble who wronged them works quite well.

Mobility problems were in addition to that: the tomb kings rarely left their territory, same for several other factions. Having ogres and dark elves meet would require some really strange explanations.

So, 40k starts out as war of everyone against everyone, because that works. Though since they started more and more imperial factions, they also have to make the imperium extremely infighty, so you can have an explanation for your sisters army to fight your friend's grey knight army.

[InvisibleBison]

See how easy Psykers are manipulated above. You are a person living on some relatively rural world during Age of Strife:
A) Kill him
B) Let him live and allow him to communicate with hell, which will probably result in him dying (most likely) or being corrupted and most of the planet falling to Warp

It's like a trolley problem where you can either kill that guy, or that one guy + millions more, and if you choose option two, that guy may turn into another trolley.

To call it a non-brainer moral problem is putting it mildly.

I don't see how the question of whether or not it's acceptable to kill one person to save the lives of many people is one that can't arise in the real world.

[-D-]

I don't see how the question of whether or not it's acceptable to kill one person to save the lives of many people is one that can't arise in the real world.

In real world you don't have people with private connection to hell. And in real world they can't become conduits for said hell world, dooming others and themselves just by existing.

[InvisibleBison]

In real world you don't have people with private connection to hell. And in real world they can't become conduits for said hell world, dooming others and themselves just by existing.

Ok, I'm pretty sure this is just a clash between deontology and consequentialism, so I don't see any point in continuing the discussion.

[-D-]

Ok, I'm pretty sure this is just a clash between deontology and consequentialism, so I don't see any point in continuing the discussion.

You are missing my point. Both of those crumble under the warped reality of Warhammer 40k. Namely that hell exist and can manifest via Psykers, and that death is a reversible process. Sure morals depend on rules, but rules depend on shared reality. There's little to no shared reality between us and Warhammer 40k.

Look at pre fall Eldar, for them death was a slap on a wrist. If they didn't overindulge in murder-boning they would have still be able to partake in recreative suicides.

[InvisibleBison]

Both of those crumble under the warped reality of Warhammer 40k. Namely that hell exist and can manifest via Psykers, and that death is a reversible process.

Why would any of those things cause the nature of morality to change? "Hell existing" means that there is a place where there are dangerous people who want to kill you, hardly something that has never presented itself in the real world. "[Hell] can manifest itself via Psykers" means that occasionally there are people who will cause harm to large numbers of people around them, which is also something that happens in the real world. "[D]eath is a reversible process" isn't something that can happen in the real world (mostly), but I don't see why it would make any currently existing moral philosophy fundamentally unworkable.

Sure morals depend on rules

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Morality doesn't depend on rules; morality is rules.

[GloatingSwine]

Why would any of those things cause the nature of morality to change? "Hell existing" means that there is a place where there are dangerous people who want to kill you, hardly something that has never presented itself in the real world.

Yeah, the difference is that that place is everywhere, all the time, and it can talk to you and almost everything you do with any level of emotion makes you more interesting to it.

It's not just Psykers, Khorne wouldn't piss on a Psyker if they were on fire, and he pisses prometheum. Any strongly felt emotion can call out and can draw you to the ruinous powers.

Humans don't have the mental discipline of the craftworld Eldar or the psychic gestalt of the Waaagh! to protect them, and they haven't made a society-wide decision to surf the wave and try and stay ahead of the break like the Dark Eldar.

[Rynjin]

Which brings us to the natural conclusion of the so-called morality argument. If all acts are justified in service of "the greater good" (here defined as stymieing the Chaos Gods and the spread of the Warp), why hasn't everyone in the Imperium killed themselves yet?

That would be the most effective single thing they could do to ensure that there are no Psykers to corrupt, and fewer strong emotions to feed the Chaos Gods with.

[GloatingSwine]

Which brings us to the natural conclusion of the so-called morality argument. If all acts are justified in service of "the greater good" (here defined as stymieing the Chaos Gods and the spread of the Warp), why hasn't everyone in the Imperium killed themselves yet?

That would be the most effective single thing they could do to ensure that there are no Psykers to corrupt, and fewer strong emotions to feed the Chaos Gods with.

Or the teradeath sacrifice will immediately rent the materium asunder and there will only be Chaos forever.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's like the Emperor. If he finally dies he *might* become a true god of Humanity, protecting their souls as Gork and Mork do to the Greenskins, reflecting the hopes placed in him by the faithful, or he *might* become a fifth Chaos god of tyranny and oppression (basically Hashut in space) representing the Imperium as it exists, or he *might* just die and deprive humanity of even that protection he currently provides.

[Lord Raziere]

They kinda do, just not Human Psykers. Eldars and Old Ones are a big reason why the situation is screwed up. They used their powers to bring Warp Entities i.e. Eldar Gods into Materium, so much that at times War In Heaven was paused at times to fight the increasing appearance of Warp Entities. Destroying Old Ones didn't help and neither did Khaine's Temper Tantrum which indirectly caused Eldar downfall.

Spoiler: Khaine's Temper Tantrum

Show

Khaine tried to kill Eldar due to the prophecy they would destroy him. So Khaine decided to murder Eldars first. Other gods and Eldar intervened, making Khaine's gate to prevent Eldar Gods from entering Materium.

Without their Gods, Eldars fell to depravity and eventually gave birth to Slaanesh that would have destroyed Khaine if Khorne didn't shatter him first.

When Emperor became an active player he had to limit interactions with Warp. His plan was to starve the Warp Gods of worship, but by then most worlds that survived Psychic awakening were rabid anti-Psykers. He was given a very **** hand.

Dealing with Warp entities is a very, very bad idea because the only things left were at that moment Four Massive Warp Leeches and their armies, few non-existent Chaos gods, few barely existing non-Chaos gods. To see how badly Psykers can get played see Thousand Sons Chapter. And these weren't any Psykers, these were the finest Space Marines Psyker led by the most powerful psyker Primarch. What chances does a run-of-the-mill Psyker have?

Spoiler: Thousand Sons Chapter

Show

Essentially noble Psykers, using their warp powers for good. And talking to Warp entities that shared their knowledge, and even served as friendly familiars. Sadly they had a horrible mutation rate, so their Primarch gave one of his eyes to halt the mutation rate. Pretty wholesome

Then came the anti-Psykers Council, led by Russ and Mortarion. Did Magnus listen then? Ofc not. He was too proud of his abilities.

When Magnus fails to cure Horus' corruption he tries to warn Emperor, but can't break a giant barrier preventing warp communication. With the help of a warp entity, Magnus manages to deliver news of Horus' Betrayal to the Emperor only to realize he got duped by Tzeentch. By breaking the wall, he ensured Emperor will be tied to deal with Terra's failed Webway.

Then during Russ's botched attempt to bring/kill Magnus, those friendly familiars turn on their former masters and cause a cluster****, leading Magnus to accept Tzeentch's deal and move the Planet of Sorcerers'

Except they do let them live. a lot. They're called sanctioned psykers, astropaths, primaris psykers, they're kind incredibly vital to keeping communication between planets going, combat wise one of the few ways a daemon can permanently die is through overwhelming psychic power, and not everyone has a holy blade, so if you want killing that daemon to stick you might want a psyker to do it

and correction, its ANCIENT Eldar that are responsible for why the situation is screwed up. you can't blame the modern Eldar for their ancestors mistakes especially when the Craftworld and Exodite ethos are "we saw how we screwed up and our entire lifestyle being changed is how we fix it", you can't blame people for wanting to live. sucks to be Khaine, but I shed no tears for him failing. god of murder not getting to murder people ain't as sad as you think it is.

as for Tzeentch, the Chaos Gods operate on a "lowest cost for greatest gains" kind of mentality. he doesn't need to corrupt every single psyker like you fear- he just needs to corrupt this big one that looks flashy and is powerful and important to make him look symbolic of all psykers everywhere, thus when he is corrupted he creates and exploits a narrative about psykers for his own gain so that everyone acts as if that narrative is true, the Imperium acting as if every psyker will become the next magnus and thus treat them badly will inevitably draw them to Tzeentch because of their fear, making the Imperium do his work for him so he saves on warp energy if the psykers all come to him. After all, if the Imperium's just gonna shoot them all anyways, why would the psykers just lie down and let them? create this division this binary choice of life or death, suddenly Chaos becomes their only option because they're the only outfit in town that give them the strength to fight back. so not only would trying to kill all the psykers get rid of the Imperium's galactic telegram service, it would also bolster Chaos's ranks with even more psykers seeing first examples and acting to not become the next. because if one side will talk only about killing you and another about not only letting you live but give you more power to live and all the things you want in life? Chaos starts to look like a good idea.

Except its not a good idea. and the fact that sanctioned psykers consistently serve in the Imperium proves there is a third option and is in fact the better option, because if a Psyker has a chance to serve, to help, that is one less psyker working for chaos, one more psyker killing things that need to be killed, one more psyker sending messages that need to be sent, one more psyker learning discipline and strength of mind that makes them able to control their powers better, oh and there is evidence to suggest that humanity as a whole is evolving to be a psychic race in general so everyone will have this problem sooner or later! I guess the only solution the imperium has is to kill everyone for everyone's protection, that'll show Chaos.

[Bunny Commando]

I guess the only solution the imperium has is to kill everyone for everyone's protection, that'll show Chaos.

Joke aside, IIRC one of the reasons Alpharius\Omegon joined Horus was because they were convinced by some mysterious cabal that if the Heresy succeeded, Humanity would go extinct in the span of few generations and that would starve Chaos.

[KorvinStarmast]

And if those people are not combatants, but civilians (as is often the case in 40k), that would be a war crime. Circle back to "awful people".

The number of assumptions embedded in this post makes further discussion pointless. Thanks for engaging.

[Rynjin]

The number of assumptions embedded in this post makes further discussion pointless. Thanks for engaging.

I mean there's no assumptions, it's just speaking to direct examples of things the Imperium has done that have come up in this conversation, like glassing inhabited worlds to win a battle, or sacrificing tens of thousands of their own people daily in a religious sacrament.

[-D-]

Except they do let them live. a lot. They're called sanctioned psykers, astropaths, primaris psykers

Sure, but I was talking about the moral options faced by humans during Age of Strife. In Imperium their prospects are just as grimdark but not just getting killed on a stake (getting killed to help the Emperor, getting killed on the battlefield). At least you can kinda die to make Imperium live another day.

A high-level psyker, would probably not end up on a pyre, but they have less chance to accidentally summon/become a demon host anyway.

and correction, its ANCIENT Eldar that are responsible

Fair enough, although I mostly blame the Old Ones and not Dino and Craftworld Eldar. Their refusal to cut deal with Necrontyr and making Ancient Eldars and Krorks is what got the universe in the ****ty state it's today.

Which brings us to the natural conclusion of the so-called morality argument. If all acts are justified in service of "the greater good" (here defined as stymieing the Chaos Gods and the spread of the Warp), why hasn't everyone in the Imperium killed themselves yet?

My argument was about stopping a psyker on a world. Most humans aren't extreme enough to feed the Chaos gods.

Second, by maliciously maximizing a goal, you can twist any morality argument. E.g., your goal is peace on earth. Well, if humans attain peace, some animals would still be killing each other, therefore there is no peace while there is life, therefore sterilize the earth. It's the kind of "paperclip maximizer" for moral argument.

Also, if one was to follow the "greater good" argument you made, killing humans wouldn't be nearly enough. Every Eldar needs to die, every Ork, every human, every T'au (maybe they'll evolve into a stronger warp race), and every sentient race (i.e. Necrons were right). Except you have to kill Necrons as well (can't have them returning to flesh and blood). And bacteria, can't take chances developing new sentient race.

as for Tzeentch, the Chaos Gods operate on a "lowest cost for greatest gains" kind of mentality. he doesn't need to corrupt every single psyker like you fear- he just needs to corrupt this big one that looks flashy and is powerful and important to make him look symbolic of all psykers everywhere

I used Thousand Sons as an example of what a Chaos God can do to corrupt high-level Psykers. Tzeentch is but one of four major ****stains. And he's kind of the chillest. He won't kill you but he will laugh at your mutations and pathetic attempts to avoid them. That said pretty sure Tzeentch, at one point almost won the war for Chaos but rigged the game against himself to give other Chaos Gods a fighting chance, so he isn't as min-maxing as implied.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Morality doesn't depend on rules; morality is rules.

Morality depends upon physical rules on which your universe rests. You can't have thou shalt not kill if "kill" isn't a concept. Or if "thou" isn't a concept (it's why we don't talk about the morality of plants).

We dislike death because it's traumatic and you can't undo it, but what if both don't apply to a race? E.g., Ancient Eldar. They got high from dying and could freely reincarnate since their souls were strong enough to fight off Warp predators.