The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

[Thomas Cardew]

But they aren't available in infinite numbers despite the limitations/effects of gameplay. Dropping the uniforms of 2,000+ Thalmor soldiers should cause a reevaluation of the costs and feasibility of success for the current plan of action regardless of who killed them. It's comparable to the Thalmor delivering the heads of all the Blade agents. It announces your willingness to kill and claim responsibility for killing Thalmor even if you didn't actually kill them all yourself. They're still dead.

Bonus points if I could loot Ancano's head from the Mage Guild quest and drop it on the table.

[Vinyadan]

That said, having her react to dropping a set of thalmor robes was definitely doable. Oblivion had the Dark Brotherhood traitor react if you bring his mother's head to him.

Now, getting to bring Elenwen her mother's head would certainly have been something, especially, if she's been dead and buried for the last hundred years.

[Rynjin]

Having a decapitated corpse shuffle into a room carrying its own head is the biggest power move anyway.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Now, getting to bring Elenwen her mother's head would certainly have been something, especially, if she's been dead and buried for the last hundred years.

Might also be tricky to do, given that Altmer commonly burn their dead. Might not be enough left of the skull to identify.

[Vinyadan]

Might also be tricky to do, given that Altmer commonly burn their dead. Might not be enough left of the skull to identify.

Time to break out the Time Wound!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Time to break out the Time Wound!

…This has possibilities.

[Vinyadan]

…This has possibilities.

Some sort of Dragon Break scenario where the Dragonborn returns from a timeline where he was a necromantic Terminator after Elenwen's mother, but also returns from another timelane where where he became Elenwen's father?

[Fyraltari]

Some sort of Dragon Break scenario where the Dragonborn returns from a timeline where he was a necromantic Terminator after Elenwen's mother, but also returns from another timelane where where he became Elenwen's father?

Turns out the Last Dragonborn was Pelinal all along.

[Rynjin]

If you take Vigilant as canon, he's actually Stendarr.

[Fyraltari]

If you take Vigilant as canon, he's actually Stendarr.

LDB or Pelinal?

[Rynjin]

LDB or Pelinal?

Yes.


Let me give a succinct answer dammit forum.

[Fyraltari]

Yes.


Let me give a succinct answer dammit forum.

How does the mod explain a bunch of Ayleids defeating one of the Eight, then? Or why Stendarr would bless the gauntlets of the Crusader?

[Rynjin]

How does the mod explain a bunch of Ayleids defeating one of the Eight, then? Or why Stendarr would bless the gauntlets of the Crusader?

Timey wimey mantling bull****, basically. It's extra ambiguous in regards to Pelinal, but he's one of the figures that you get to actually experience the memories of, and much is made of his regrets when he talks directly to you afterward, with him basically saying "don't make the same mistakes I did". But that could also him talking "god to god" with you, since Pelinal is also implied in lore to be one and the same with Talos.

That said, you also get to experience the memories of Molag Bal (in the bad ending) so those two things aren't necessarily related.

The end of the mod is decidedly UNambiguous about the main character being a mantle of Stendarr though, if you so choose. There's a dialogue choice for it when Molag Bal asks who you are after you beat his ass.

A lot of the stuff in Act 4/the final act of the mod is very metaphorical, and draws on hella deep lore, but I recommend playing it. Despite some mechanical clunkiness it is like the quality DLC we could have gotten in place of Dawnguard.

[Fyraltari]

Timey wimey mantling bull****, basically. It's extra ambiguous in regards to Pelinal, but he's one of the figures that you get to actually experience the memories of, and much is made of his regrets when he talks directly to you afterward, with him basically saying "don't make the same mistakes I did". But that could also him talking "god to god" with you, since Pelinal is also implied in lore to be one and the same with Talos.

That said, you also get to experience the memories of Molag Bal (in the bad ending) so those two things aren't necessarily related.

The end of the mod is decidedly UNambiguous about the main character being a mantle of Stendarr though, if you so choose. There's a dialogue choice for it when Molag Bal asks who you are after you beat his ass.

A lot of the stuff in Act 4/the final act of the mod is very metaphorical, and draws on hella deep lore, but I recommend playing it. Despite some mechanical clunkiness it is like the quality DLC we could have gotten in place of Dawnguard.

Ah so the idea is that Pelinal mantled Stendarr rather than Pelinal being Stendarr "in the flesh", like with Zenithar/Jon Hawker?
I guess, I could see that, but I feel like Pelinal already has his plate full with being Shezzarine/The Amulet of Kings.

Him being Talos, beyond the whole "Tiber Septim mantled Shezzar and Pelinal was a Shezzarine" thing, I have a harder time reckoning. The Talos we meet in Morrowind seems much less violent than Tiber Septim was and so even less than Pelinal.

Then again, Talos is possibly the single most ambiguous character of this whole franchise, so who even knows.

[LibraryOgre]

I absolutely hate that the negotiations require you to swap territories.

"Look, y'all can slaughter each other in the Pale, you can slaughter each other in Hjaalmarch, Winterhold, Falkreath, the Rift... I don't care. Just stay out of Whiterun for the next five weeks, or I swear by Jurgen Windcaller I will shout every one of you off this mountain and declare myself the High King."

[Rynjin]

Him being Talos, beyond the whole "Tiber Septim mantled Shezzar and Pelinal was a Shezzarine" thing, I have a harder time reckoning. The Talos we meet in Morrowind seems much less violent than Tiber Septim was and so even less than Pelinal.

Then again, Talos is possibly the single most ambiguous character of this whole franchise, so who even knows.

This one actually comes directly from a combo of in-game lore and Word of Kirkbride. Pelinal is the Shezarrine, incarnation of Shezarr, who is also Lorkhan, who is also Shor, who is also Wulfharth, who is also Talos.

When asked about Lorkhan and his avatars, developer Michael Kirkbride presented the following list. These are all various names or titles associated with Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth.[UOL 2]
1. Wulfharth L
2. Hjalti O
3. Ysmir R
4. Talos K
5. Arctus H
6. Septim A

Notably, the Last Dragonborn is also Ysmir, who is also Talos, who is also Shezarr, Pelinal, etc. hence the potential connection between LDB and Pelinal.

[Fyraltari]

This one actually comes directly from a combo of in-game lore and Word of Kirkbride. Pelinal is the Shezarrine, incarnation of Shezarr, who is also Lorkhan, who is also Shor, who is also Wulfharth, who is also Talos.

Gotta love that list having letters that don't match the names associated and not even enough names to spell LORKHAN.

Notably, the Last Dragonborn is also Ysmir, who is also Talos, who is also Shezarr, Pelinal, etc. hence the potential connection between LDB and Pelinal.

Ysmir just means "Dragonborn", though. Funny thing is that Pelinal was also called Ysmir, as was Wulfarth and they are both Shezarrines. Add to that the notions that Akatosh and Lorkhan are kind of one-and-the-same (time and space being just spacetime) and that Pelinal was also supposed to be the Amulet of Kings which is sometimes made of Lorkan's blood and sometimes of Akatosh's and that Shorr conspicuously refuses to meet the LDB in Sovngarde and it starts to look like being Dragonborn and being a Shezarrine are actually the same thing.

But the LDB and Talos both being parts of Lorkhan doesn't make them the same, necessarily. More like cosmic siblings?

[Rynjin]

Something like that, yeah. I agree with the "being Shezarrine may just mean being Dragonborn" thing, it certainly appears to be heavily implied.

I remember there is some actual reasoning behind the Stendarr connection (pulled from Online I think?) but I can't remember the details.

[Fyraltari]

Something like that, yeah. I agree with the "being Shezarrine may just mean being Dragonborn" thing, it certainly appears to be heavily implied.

I remember there is some actual reasoning behind the Stendarr connection (pulled from Online I think?) but I can't remember the details.

Do you know if that mod has been translated into other languages?

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I absolutely hate that the negotiations require you to swap territories.

"Look, y'all can slaughter each other in the Pale, you can slaughter each other in Hjaalmarch, Winterhold, Falkreath, the Rift... I don't care. Just stay out of Whiterun for the next five weeks, or I swear by Jurgen Windcaller I will shout every one of you off this mountain and declare myself the High King."

Concur with this. I hate Season Unending in general, but trying to make me boot the cool old seer lady out of Morthal was the last straw. The fact that the ‘scoring’ for who you’re favoring is unintuitive and you get yelled at a lot for trying to help everyone involved doesn’t help.

[Rynjin]

Do you know if that mod has been translated into other languages?

I think its native language is Japanese, and I'm pretty sure there are Chinese, German, Spanish, and French versions as well. I'm pretty sure the mod for voiceacting is only in English though.

[GloatingSwine]

I absolutely hate that the negotiations require you to swap territories.

"Look, y'all can slaughter each other in the Pale, you can slaughter each other in Hjaalmarch, Winterhold, Falkreath, the Rift... I don't care. Just stay out of Whiterun for the next five weeks, or I swear by Jurgen Windcaller I will shout every one of you off this mountain and declare myself the High King."

You can do that by the way.

When they're leaving the conference they all walk down so you can just yeet them off the edge. Since they're immortal they just get up and carry on.

[LibraryOgre]

You can do that by the way.

When they're leaving the conference they all walk down so you can just yeet them off the edge. Since they're immortal they just get up and carry on.

I mean, "Assassinate Ulfric" would be a great Dark Brotherhood quest.

[Rater202]

I mean, "Assassinate Ulfric" would be a great Dark Brotherhood quest.

That would also make the side quests have a bit too much sway over the main plot.

And don't get me wrong, I would like it if side quests and such were better integrated with each other, but...

And practically speaking... taking out Ulfric in an assassination would make him a martyr and the Stormcloaks, who are already rather radical, would become more so.

(Which makes the attempt to just quickly execute him in the prolog a bit... Tullius's logic was to quickly capture him and execute him but there's no way that would be accepted as a legitimate loss by his followers.)

[Grim Portent]

I mean, "Assassinate Ulfric" would be a great Dark Brotherhood quest.

Assassinate everyone, appoint reiklings as Jarls.

Something like 60+% of the Jarls/alternate Jarls are *******s/incompetents who could improve Tamriel by walking off the Windhelm docks wearing iron boots when you get right down to it.


EDIT: Riekling Chief of Thirsk Mead Hall is the best leader in the game, I will not hear a word otherwise.

[Keltest]

That would also make the side quests have a bit too much sway over the main plot.

And don't get me wrong, I would like it if side quests and such were better integrated with each other, but...

And practically speaking... taking out Ulfric in an assassination would make him a martyr and the Stormcloaks, who are already rather radical, would become more so.

(Which makes the attempt to just quickly execute him in the prolog a bit... Tullius's logic was to quickly capture him and execute him but there's no way that would be accepted as a legitimate loss by his followers.)

The Dark Brotherhood as it is in Skyrim would probably refuse a contract on Tullius or Ulfric simply due to lack of confidence in their ability to actually do it. Ulfric in particular is possibly the single most dangerous individual outside the College of Winterhold or the Throat of the World at the start of the game.

The only reason they went after the Emperor is because the payment was also accompanied by a plan on how it would work already made up for them.

[Vinyadan]

And practically speaking... taking out Ulfric in an assassination would make him a martyr and the Stormcloaks, who are already rather radical, would become more so.

(Which makes the attempt to just quickly execute him in the prolog a bit... Tullius's logic was to quickly capture him and execute him but there's no way that would be accepted as a legitimate loss by his followers.)

It really depends on the power relationships within the Stormcloaks. It's not impossible that, once the unifying figure dies, the front breaks up and the internal fighting erupts, or some jarls simply leave active service. But they seem to have a strong ideological reason to do what they do, so Ulfric may not be a real linchpin.

On the other hand, a recognised leader is useful for his enemy, too, since he has the authority to make negotiations, and maybe even peace, possible. And a captured leader can be kept while you see how the other side acts, if it can keep it together, or if the leader can be used in some other way.

Ulfric also was a great general, not dead weight, so patching things up with him would have been desirable.

[LibraryOgre]

I'll point out that, in Helgen, they certainly thought executing Ulfric would end the civil war.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

EDIT: Riekling Chief of Thirsk Mead Hall is the best leader in the game, I will not hear a word otherwise.

I was so sad how that ended. The Riekling Chief is smarter than a large proportion of the 'civilized' races - he learned a second language, he was able to outmaneuver the Hall's previous residents (something of a low bar but nevertheless proves my point), and unlike so many idiot bandits and thieves actually recognized the power of the Last Dragonborn and did the sensible thing by trying to recruit them! If only he hadn't been so paranoid.

I'll point out that, in Helgen, they certainly thought executing Ulfric would end the civil war.

And if the player sides with the Imperial Legion, they still kill him (or have you kill him), so I'm thinking they aren't very concerned about making Ulfric a martyr.

[Taevyr]

Personally, I imagine the Stormcloaks would, at the very least, lack a unifying leader once Ulfric dies. There's no clear "heir" to stormcloak leadership, and while many stormcloaks are probably former legionaires and thus used to a chain of command, if there's no clear second when the head of the chain drops dead, that's problematic.

Without Ulfric, initially they'd fight with more fervor following whatever plans he'd put in place, but sooner than later someone'd have to step up, and I have a hard time thinking of someone who could fill that spot.