The Elder Scrolls XVIII: "What's So Civil About War, Anyway?"

[Rynjin]

The ****tiest city in Cyrodiil has a ruler who has a secret torture room for Khajiit and Argonians. That's beyond even Ashlander levels of racism.

None of the racism in Skyrim even comes close.

Of course not, bringing a Khajiit or Argonian inside city walls would be illegal in Skyrim.

[Fyraltari]

The other Jarls, for one.

Really doubt any of them would have had a different reaction than the ones they did have.

Well, neither time and date nor weapons were chosen here, it was quite literally just challenging Torygg to a barroom brawl to the death in the middle of court.

According to? We don't know exactly how the duel happened. We know that Ulfric walked in and challenged Torygg. We know he accepted. We know that they fought, we know Torryg died. But we don't know whether they lurched at each other in the middle of the throne room or if they had the whole court gathered in the courtyard, picked weapons and had Falk Firebeard count to three before anybody struck.

Instead he accomplished less than nothing due to being a shortsighted bonehead.

I dunno dude, he's got a 50/50 of getting exactly what he wanted.

You can track by the relative sizes of the cities in-game, however. For example, a single Imperial City district was the size of every other major town, or only a little smaller.

Winterhold is smaller than Morthal, a town in the middle of nowhere. because the entire city fell into the ocean; this is a fact we are aware of.

Winterhold fell into the sea 78 years ago. It's still the capital of a hold and so is Morthal. These are obviously meant to be decently-sized, if down-on-their-luck cities.

Well, if nothing else we can compare the guard response to murder in broad daylight with multiple witnesses.

Markarth: kills the Forsworn murderer almost immediately after he suddenly stabs a woman in the middle of the market.

Windhelm: without PC intervention Calixto will escape scot free after he suddenly stabs a woman in the middle of the market. There's a guard just watching it happen who does nothing.

Can't say I've ever let that happen. A guard not reacting to a murder sounds like a bug, are you sure that's normal?

Let me put it this way. The ****tiest city in Cyrodiil (Bravil) is still overall more prosperous and culturally tolerant than Windhelm. The poorest city (Leyawiin) is still in better repair.

I wouldn't say either city is in better shape than Windhelm. But also, you claim was that the Stormcloaks don't deserve to rule because they don't have the best interest of the population in mind, but the Empire doesn't either.

[Rynjin]

"Enlightened self-interest" is an infinitely better governing philosophy than "staggering incompetence and/or apathy".

Re: Blood on the Ice: Pretty sure it's not a bug, it happens in every playthrough where the player doesn't directly kill Calixto. I think the guards do eventually pursue but it looks like they're coded to give Calixto a had start.

[Grim Portent]

The Nords hero worship a man who committed actual genocide, specifically for the fact that he committed genocide. It's more subtle, but it's sure there.

So do the Imperials (Pelinal, Alessia, Morihaus, that guy who killed all the Akaviri, Talos) and the Dunmer (Nerevar.)

Also the Bretons and Redguard, but they don't worship their genocidals forebears as gods, just see them as heroes of the past (destruction of Orsinium.)


People in the setting are ****ty, and they respect ****ty people. I still think the racism in the Nibenay region of Cyrodiil was worse than the racism of the Grey Quarter or the docks in Windhelm, because it was actively pro-considering Beastfolk subhumans.

[Fyraltari]

The Nords hero worship a man who committed actual genocide, specifically for the fact that he committed genocide. It's more subtle, but it's sure there.

It's interesting to note that* while noting that the Altmer pantheon has Syrabane, whose most well-known feat is leading the All-Flags Navy working with the human Bendu Olo and Stendarr "the apologist of Man". Don't know of any other race with a god of "having good relations with this specific race".

*However it's likely untrue as the Falmer were only driven off the surface of Skyrim under the thirteenth king of Ysagramor's line, Harald. So while Ysgramor was no fan of elves, the notion that he rid Skyrim of the Falmer is wrong.

[Resileaf]

Winterhold fell into the sea 78 years ago. It's still the capital of a hold and so is Morthal. These are obviously meant to be decently-sized, if down-on-their-luck cities.

Mind you, Winterhold is only considered the capital because of the college. Without it, it would have been abandonned and fallen off the map long ago.

[Grim Portent]

It's interesting to note that* while noting that the Altmer pantheon has Syrabane, whose most well-known feat is leading the All-Flags Navy working with the human Bendu Olo and Stendarr "the apologist of Man". Don't know of any other race with a god of "having good relations with this specific race".

*However it's likely untrue as the Falmer were only driven off the surface of Skyrim under the thirteenth king of Ysagramor's line, Harald. So while Ysgramor was no fan of elves, the notion that he rid Skyrim of the Falmer is wrong.

He did kill a disproportionate quantity though. I get it, blood feuds are like that, but like any blood feud his one went way too far.

So did Pelinal for that matter. No matter how nasty the Ayleids were as a society, killing peasants because some soldiers killed your boyfriend goes too far even if you stop at one.

Bit of a trend with people in the setting. The great heroes of the past usually responded to an injustice with attempted genocide.

[Fyraltari]

So do the Imperials (Pelinal, Alessia, Morihaus, that guy who killed all the Akaviri, Talos) and the Dunmer (Nerevar.)

That's just not true.
Pelinal, Alessia and Morihaus did not genocide the Ayleids. The Alessian Order did, one hundred years after their death. The modern-day Imperials do not like the Order. At all. These three allied with Ayleids lords who still got to keep their domains under Alessia's rule.

It's worth stopping on Pelinal, especially, despite the meme of him being the Elve's Doomguy, his favourite tactic was to challenge the Ayleid kings to single combat instead of large battles. And while he did have episodes of intense rage where he would slaughter everything in sight, he was unable to tell friend from foe during those, he'd just attack everything. His image has a elf-murdering berserker seems to have been played up during Reman's reign as part of his own struggle against the Altmers.

"That guy who killed all the Akavari" doesn't exist. The Akaviri are doing fine in Akavir. If you meant Reman I, he didn't kill them, he incorporated them into his legions (or rather the opposite) and Cyrodiilic nobility (to the point that you can allegedly still see some Tsaeci traits in noble families) and mde one of them his Prime Minister.

And Talos did a lot of heinous ****, true. But you know the thing? The Imperials din't praise him for it. In fact they've got an history of whitewashing their cultural heroes, unlike the Nords who like to exaggerate how many Elves Ysgramor killed.

[Grim Portent]

"That guy who killed all the Akavari" doesn't exist. The Akaviri are doing fine in Akavir. If you meant Reman I, he didn't kill them, he incorporated them into his legions (or rather the opposite) and Cyrodiilic nobility (to the point that you can allegedly still see some Tsaeci traits in noble families) and mde one of them his Prime Minister.

Not Reman, wasn't there a purge of the remaining 'pure' Akaviri in Cyrodiil during the Interregnum?

[Fyraltari]

Not Reman, wasn't there a purge of the remaining 'pure' Akaviri in Cyrodiil during the Interregnum?

Possible, but I'm not aware of it. I haven't played ESO, so that might be why.

[Keltest]

Not Reman, wasn't there a purge of the remaining 'pure' Akaviri in Cyrodiil during the Interregnum?

If you can't find his name, he probably isn't hero-worshipped for it.

[Fyraltari]

Also, Nerevar didn't commit genocide either. He united the Dwemers and chimers under one banner, which is quite the opposite.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Not Reman, wasn't there a purge of the remaining 'pure' Akaviri in Cyrodiil during the Interregnum?

Attrebus?

…wow Titus Mede I must have really had it out for the Blades to give his son the same name.

[Grim Portent]

Attrebus?

…wow Titus Mede I must have really had it out for the Blades to give his son the same name.

That's the one.

I've seen an assertion that Attrebus was Colovian, Titus Mede certainly was, so it could be a culturally relevant historical reference on his part.

There are four types of Imperial after all. Colovians, Heartlanders, Nibenese and Cyro-Nordic I think. They don't share all the same cultural heroes.

[Fyraltari]

That's the one.

I've seen an assertion that Attrebus was Colovian, Titus Mede certainly was, so it could be a culturally relevant historical reference on his part.

There are four types of Imperial after all. Colovians, Heartlanders, Nibenese and Cyro-Nordic I think. They don't share all the same cultural heroes.

Heartlanders and Nibenese are the same thing. Likewise for Colovians and Cyro-Nordics.

I think Attrebus might just be a common Colovian (or Imperial) name. It's unlikely that Titus I was thinking of a guy living a thousand years prior when he named his kid.

[Grim Portent]

Heartlanders and Nibenese are the same thing. Likewise for Colovians and Cyro-Nordics.

I think Attrebus might just be a common Colovian (or Imperial) name. It's unlikely that Titus I was thinking of a guy living a thousand years prior when he named his kid.

Aren't there differences between the Nibenese from the area around Bravil/Leyawin and the Heartlanders from around the Imperial City?

Same for Colovians and Cyro-Nordics, aren't the Colovians from Chorrol,Skingrad,Kvatch and Anvil while Cyro-Nordics are more Bruma based?

Not homogenous within those ranges or anything, things always get blurry around mixing spots, but I was under the impression that there were cultural splits beyond Colovian/Nibenese.

[Fyraltari]

Aren't there differences between the Nibenese from the area around Bravil/Leyawin and the Heartlanders from around the Imperial City?

Same for Colovians and Cyro-Nordics, aren't the Colovians from Chorrol,Skingrad,Kvatch and Anvil while Cyro-Nordics are more Bruma based?

Not homogenous within those ranges or anything, things always get blurry around mixing spots, but I was under the impression that there were cultural splits beyond Colovian/Nibenese.

I don't think so. Falkreath is in Skyrim now, but it used to be part of the Colovian Estates, so it seems that Colovia reaches even further north than Bruma.

[Grim Portent]

I don't think so. Falkreath is in Skyrim now, but it used to be part of the Colovian Estates, so it seems that Colovia reaches even further north than Bruma.

Did a bit of poking around after that post, and whoooo boy does it seem like a point of contention. One angle seems to be that Cyro-Nordic is interchangeable with Colovian, the other is that Colovians are a type of Cyro-Nord, but the more Nord influenced inhabitants of Bruma and Falkreath are distinct from the inhabitants of the Cyrodilic Colovians and it makes more sense to refer to the former as Cyro-Nord and the latter as Colovians, and another angle is that the Nibenese are also Cyro-Nords because of that one book that claims all men came from Atmora.*

Apparently there's some stuff to do with some of the in game books being discredited by other in game books or something.

My interpretation is that there is a distinct subgroup within Bruma and presumably Falkreath, because we see as much in Oblivion, a lot of the locals are Nords, identify as Nords and worship the Nordic Pantheon. The area is still a mixture of Cyrodillics and Nords, and evolving into something distinct from either group.** Skingrad, Kvatch, Anvil and Chorrol on the other hand have no major outside influences at the time, though Anvil presumably is in contact with a lot of Aebecean ships and getting influenced in ways the game never bothered to show.

*False to my understanding. Meant to be a bit of Tiber Septim related Imperial propoganda to link the various Cyrodillic empires with the old Nordic one, to lend more weight to the sometimes wobbly Septim dynasty.

**Skyrim Nords have more or less also evolved in a similar fashion since the time of Oblivion. Nordic Pantheon all but extinct, Imperial influences are common, Skyrim isn't seen as some sort of barbaric lawless place as much as it once was, and pro-Legion sentiment is more common among Nords by the time of Skyrim.

[Vinyadan]

If it's like "who are the Franks" or "who are the Lombards", you can expect answers to change quite a bit over time, region, and specific user.

[Grim Portent]

If it's like "who are the Franks" or "who are the Lombards", you can expect answers to change quite a bit over time, region, and specific user.

Seems to be the case as far as I can tell.

[veti]

The biggest problem of the matter is that Ulfric went to demand a duel immediately rather than start a dialogue with Torygg, where he would have learned that Torygg 100% agreed with Ulfric and would have rebelled against the Empire if he had just bothered to ask. It was murder because there was no attempt to reconcile their viewpoints and it was done to remove Torygg from his position and put himself in charge instead. Had Ulfric not killed Torygg, Skyrim would not have suffered a civil war. It would have declared independance instantly or it would have put enough pressure on the Empire to force negotiations concerning the worship of Talos.

You are relying heavily on the testimony of Sybille "my-scrying-has-revealed-nothing-in-the-area-this-is-likely-superstitious-nonsense" Stentor, there. A witness who is neither impartial nor trustworthy, nor even disinterested.

Hypothetical: if Ulfric had asked Torygg nicely to renounce the Concordat and declare independence, do you really think he'd have done it? Or that the Empire would have just shrugged and accepted the decision?

[Vinyadan]

Given his personal history, and in a slighlty different setting, I could have seen Ulfric going "this is not the Empire" after the Concordat, deciding to secede and declare a -- to him -- more legitimate rump Imperial state, kill a High King that is mainly the representative of the Emperor (like the Duke or King in Vvardenfell and Morrowind), declare himself the representative of a more legitimate Emperor (whoever he may be; probably just a pawn), possibly with a new title like "protector", and lean at the same time on both nationalist sentiment in Skyrim ("why should we Nord kneel before the Elves?") and loyalty to the Empire ("why should the Empire kneel before the Elves?").

About the Moot, Ulfric doesn't want it. He's afraid to lose. His plan is to just conquer Skyrim and become its ruler by force of arms. "And damn the Moot! We should risk letting those milkdrinkers put Thoryg's woman on the throne?"

[Rynjin]

Yeah. I'm not sure where the image of Ulfric as a selfless liberator comes from because he directly contradicts that image with his own words.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah. I'm not sure where the image of Ulfric as a selfless liberator comes from because he directly contradicts that image with his own words.

Well, that's certainly who he wishes to be. Does he live up to it? Probably not.

Also, forgot to reply to this:

I think its native language is Japanese, and I'm pretty sure there are Chinese, German, Spanish, and French versions as well. I'm pretty sure the mod for voiceacting is only in English though.

Thanks, I'll look it up next time I play Skyrim.

[Keltest]

Well, that's certainly who he wishes to be. Does he live up to it? Probably not.

Is it? Its who he wants to be seen as certainly, but I think Balgruuf is pretty on the nose when he calls out Ulfric for just being interested in his own power plays.

[Fyraltari]

Is it? Its who he wants to be seen as certainly, but I think Balgruuf is pretty on the nose when he calls out Ulfric for just being interested in his own power plays.

Ulfric is a multifaceted character, as evidenced by the fact we're still here discussing him more than eleven years later. He is power-hungry but he also genuinely believe that he is doing the right thing and is trying to atone for the fall of the Imperial City. I don't think he himself really understands his own motivations.

[Rynjin]

Ulfric is a multifaceted character, as evidenced by the fact we're still here discussing him more than eleven years later. He is power-hungry but he also genuinely believe that he is doing the right thing and is trying to atone for the fall of the Imperial City. I don't think he himself really understands his own motivations.

I don't think the fact that we're still discussing it is evidence of him being multifaceted. I think it comes from people reading either way too deep into the text or not having actually played the Civil War storyline. Ulfric has basically been memed into being a deep character.

[Resileaf]

You are relying heavily on the testimony of Sybille "my-scrying-has-revealed-nothing-in-the-area-this-is-likely-superstitious-nonsense" Stentor, there. A witness who is neither impartial nor trustworthy, nor even disinterested.

Hypothetical: if Ulfric had asked Torygg nicely to renounce the Concordat and declare independence, do you really think he'd have done it? Or that the Empire would have just shrugged and accepted the decision?

By all accounts, Ulfric was Torygg's idol for his skill and his charisma. Torygg was a worshipper of Talos as well. He would have been willing to do something to fulfill his kingly duties if Ulfric had been diplomatic enough to not immediately accuse Torygg of being an Imperial puppet and kill him on the spot.

[Batcathat]

I don't think the fact that we're still discussing it is evidence of him being multifaceted. I think it comes from people reading either way too deep into the text or not having actually played the Civil War storyline. Ulfric has basically been memed into being a deep character.

While I agree that Ulfric isn't that deep (very few Elder Scroll characters are, in my experience), I think it's fair to say that he has mixed motivations, having a personal lust for power and wanting what (he think) is best for Skyrim aren't mutually exclusive.

By all accounts, Ulfric was Torygg's idol for his skill and his charisma. Torygg was a worshipper of Talos as well. He would have been willing to do something to fulfill his kingly duties if Ulfric had been diplomatic enough to not immediately accuse Torygg of being an Imperial puppet and kill him on the spot.

If he needed to be told that having their worship of their favorite god forbidden was something his people might object to, that seems like another sign that Torygg's death wasn't much of a loss. Yes, Ulfric could certainly have taken a diplomatic route, but I think it's far from certain that it would've been succesful.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think the fact that we're still discussing it is evidence of him being multifaceted. I think it comes from people reading either way too deep into the text or not having actually played the Civil War storyline. Ulfric has basically been memed into being a deep character.

I mean, he's certainly deeper than Tullius or Alduin.