Writers In The Playground

[Comrade]

I'll never be a published writer but I do enjoy it as a hobby. Currently about 16,000 words into a novel-length story and have written a few other pieces of fiction as well as some poetry. I remember a long time ago we got a small writers' group going from this forum where folks would read one another's works-in-progress and provide feedback-- it fizzled out but I've always found having a group like that incredibly helpful, both for getting multiple perspectives on a work in progress and also just for keeping me accountable to putting words on the page.

[animorte]

I remember a long time ago we got a small writers' group going from this forum where folks would read one another's works-in-progress and provide feedback-- it fizzled out but I've always found having a group like that incredibly helpful, both for getting multiple perspectives on a work in progress and also just for keeping me accountable to putting words on the page.

I'd be down for that, and I would be sure to note my most obvious flaw up front: My wife tells me I write like Arthur Conan Doyle with an unnecessary aura of pretentious, albeit oozing from the most vague descriptions imaginable. (What? I like the reader to decide for themselves what image is forming in their individual noggin.)

This reminds me of the most recent writing club we started with a few family and friends about 7 years ago. It really shed light on how wildly different people are in that setting. One person, to this day can not be paid to accept criticism, was extremely difficult to work with. That person went through some Amazon self-publishing service.

Anyway, that staying accountable is extremely valuable. Being active on GitP has helped me to maintain the average typing skills I have!

[Easy e]

Seeking some writing advice for my fantasy novel!

What do you feel can make an unsympathetic protagonist compelling and enjoyable to follow? (While they remain unsympathetic, that is; unsympathetic characters growing and changing is a separate issue.) Does it work for you if:

• The character's unsympathetic traits are deeply rooted in their fictional world and culture?
• The character's unsympathetic traits are constantly coming back to bite them in the behind with negative consequences?
• The character is very stylish and inventive in their transgressive and selfish acts, and is generally up against fearsome odds?

Those three bullet points are my main strategies to keep readers invested my novel's hero, a selfish and violent individual who doesn't particularly grow or change as a person through most of the story. Do you have examples of literature where this sort of characterization really worked or didn't work for you, or of how you tackled the unsympathetic protagonist issue.

My second question concerns narrative perspective and voice. I write in a very removed third-person omniscient voice. There will often be scenes written mostly from the perspective of minor characters or scenes where the protagonist is entirely absent. There are times when the narration pulls back and provides information not available to any of the main characters. Sometimes the narration will even reference events in the future.

This is a very deliberate stylistic choice, but it definitely seems to be an unfashionable one these days, if a pile of rejection letters for my short stories (which use a similar style) are anything to go by. I've had editor after editor tell me how important it is to 'get inside characters' heads' and 'focus on the main' character's thoughts', but writing that way frankly bores me. Do you have advice for making such a style more palatable to modern readers while still retaining its fundamental substance? Any examples (from speculative fiction ideally, but not necessarily) of that kind of narration working really well for you?

I am not an expert. I mostly write boring, historical wargames.

However, many great stories, movies, and books feature unsympathetic characters. The key is to give them "Rooting Interest". In short, it is a reason someone would cheer for them, even if it is only a small or single aspect of their character.

For example, Han Solo is a mercenary, a criminal, a jerk, and a sexual assaulter. Yet people love him. Why? Because he has rooting interest. Here is what those interests are:

1. He works for and is an underdog
2. The Empire is worse
3. He's funny, quick-witted, and clever
4. He is "self-made" and a "rugged individualist"
5. He is loyal to his friends in a tight spot
6. He does not give-up and keeps scrapping despite the odds
7. He is pretty good at his job

Despite being an amoral dirt bag, there are things about him a person could view as good and strong qualities to emulate. That is how you make an unsympathetic character be a character that readers are willing to root for. They need "rooting interest".

Hope that helps.

[truemane]

Seeking some writing advice for my fantasy novel!

What do you feel can make an unsympathetic protagonist compelling and enjoyable to follow?

My unhelpful response to this is that, most of the time, this comes down to execution. Any rule I could give you (or anyone else) probably has as many exceptions as it has adherers. The secret is "make the person likeable." And that's one of those magic things that's really hard to systematize without resorting to cliché.

Broad things people like in fictional characters:

• They share our values and do things we would do
• They do the things we wish we could do but can't (or won't)
• They're forced into the things they do for reasons outside their control
• They are helpful to other people we like

The not growing or changing thing is tricky too. It's not impossible to tell a good story about someone who never changes, but it's hard. People expect growth and change as part of a hero's journey and, like anything unexpected or unusual or off-genre, subverting the trope has to earn its keep.

This is a very deliberate stylistic choice, but it definitely seems to be an unfashionable one these days, if a pile of rejection letters for my short stories (which use a similar style) are anything to go by. I've had editor after editor tell me how important it is to 'get inside characters' heads' and 'focus on the main' character's thoughts', but writing that way frankly bores me.

I'm not privy to the whole situation here, clearly, but on the surface that's good advice. You can maintain your omniscient POV and still narrate thoughts and motives. The important thing is that we, the reader, understand the main character. Understand why they're doing what they're doing, what drives them, what they want, what their goals are, what they're will to do to achieve them. You can just say those things bald-face, but it's usually better to show us rather than tell us. Thoughts are an easy way to do that. But if you can find other ways, that might work as well.

In general, in my experience, opacity as a feature of a story is very, very hard to do well. Using secrecy and mystery as a primary generator of tension seems easy and accessible, but it can very easily become a crutch. And if not tended carefully, it can become a prison. One of Kurt Vonnegut's rules for short stories is that the reader should have enough information to work out exactly how the story should end.

[Coppercloud]

Seeking some writing advice for my fantasy novel!

What do you feel can make an unsympathetic protagonist compelling and enjoyable to follow? (While they remain unsympathetic, that is; unsympathetic characters growing and changing is a separate issue.) Does it work for you if:

• The character's unsympathetic traits are deeply rooted in their fictional world and culture?
• The character's unsympathetic traits are constantly coming back to bite them in the behind with negative consequences?
• The character is very stylish and inventive in their transgressive and selfish acts, and is generally up against fearsome odds?

Those three bullet points are my main strategies to keep readers invested my novel's hero, a selfish and violent individual who doesn't particularly grow or change as a person through most of the story. Do you have examples of literature where this sort of characterization really worked or didn't work for you, or of how you tackled the unsympathetic protagonist issue.

Gagner la guerre ("Win the war") by Jean-Philippe Jaworski is a fantasy novel that I really enjoyed, whose protagonist and viewpoint character is an assassin without the slightest hint of morality or remorse. I doubt it will be of any help as an example though, as it is in French and as far as I know hasn't been translated yet.

I think what makes it work is partly your third bullet point, the odds being against the protagonist and the inventive ways he beat them, but mostly it's the style and humor of the narration that make the character lovable, even though he has definitely no moral compass

[Catullus64]

Gagner la guerre ("Win the war") by Jean-Philippe Jaworski is a fantasy novel that I really enjoyed, whose protagonist and viewpoint character is an assassin without the slightest hint of morality or remorse. I doubt it will be of any help as an example though, as it is in French and as far as I know hasn't been translated yet.

I can read French passably well, though it would probably take me a long time to get through an entire novel. It would actually help me a great deal if you were to point to select passages or chapters in the book (if you have a copy) that you feel really capture this protagonist and why you find him compelling; it would spare me some significant effort. Either page numbers if the pagination is consistent across editions, or maybe chapter and paragraph numbers.

Also, according to the author's Wikipedia page, an English translation is in the works!

[Batcathat]

One thing that might make the readers more sympathetic to a less heroic character just occurred to me (I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm too lazy to double-check...) is being honest about what they are (to themselves and the readers, if not the necessarily other characters). Personally, I'm way more likely to root for someone who admits to being an amoral bastard than someone who thinks themself a hero, even if both characters' actual actions are the same. Hypocrisy is rarely an admirably quality, after all.

[Peelee]

One thing that might make the readers more sympathetic to a less heroic character just occurred to me (I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm too lazy to double-check...) is being honest about what they are (to themselves and the readers, if not the necessarily other characters). Personally, I'm way more likely to root for someone who admits to being an amoral bastard than someone who thinks themself a hero, even if both characters' actual actions are the same. Hypocrisy is rarely an admirably quality, after all.

That's a good breakdown of Yuri Orlov from Lord of War. IIRC he's an amalgamation of a few real arms dealers, one of them notably moreso than the rest, but he is entirely evil, amoral, and unsympathetic. He fully realizes he's the villain and doesn't try to rationalize that. And he's a hell of a character to watch.

Well when I write a fictional story, I try to focus to make my characters interesting and unique. So maybe you should find an approach to make your characters interesting so readers can enjoy them.

That's not really advice so much as it is the baseline, though. Of course you want to make characters interesting, nobody is out there thinking they're going to write a character who isn't interesting. The question is how do you make a character interesting.

[Rynjin]

One thing that might make the readers more sympathetic to a less heroic character just occurred to me (I don't think it's been mentioned, but I'm too lazy to double-check...) is being honest about what they are (to themselves and the readers, if not the necessarily other characters). Personally, I'm way more likely to root for someone who admits to being an amoral bastard than someone who thinks themself a hero, even if both characters' actual actions are the same. Hypocrisy is rarely an admirably quality, after all.

The problem with this circles back around to the omniscient narrator. What makes similar narratives like this compelling is how they immerse you deep inside the character's psyche. You understand what the characters says, what they think, and how the two contradict, if they do at all.

You can get the same knowledge with an omniscient narrator, but it is difficult if not impossible to evoke the same emotions. It's the difference between a clinical documentary (or the mimicking of said style) and a character-driven narrative.

The former is the best way I can think of to execute on the concept, in fact. Treating it as a documentary or journalistic piece, but fictional. That's a pretty hard sell in the current market though because of the BOOMING True Crime audience at the moment. People want to voyeuristically experience real human suffering, not fictional.

[Bartmanhomer]

That's not really advice so much as it is the baseline, though. Of course you want to make characters interesting, nobody is out there thinking they're going to write a character who isn't interesting. The question is how do you make a character interesting.

Ok, thank you for correcting that part.

[Scarlet Knight]

Seeking some writing advice for my fantasy novel!

What do you feel can make an unsympathetic protagonist compelling and enjoyable to follow? (While they remain unsympathetic, that is; unsympathetic characters growing and changing is a separate issue.) Does it work for you if:

• The character's unsympathetic traits are deeply rooted in their fictional world and culture?
• The character's unsympathetic traits are constantly coming back to bite them in the behind with negative consequences?
• The character is very stylish and inventive in their transgressive and selfish acts, and is generally up against fearsome odds?

Those three bullet points are my main strategies to keep readers invested my novel's hero, a selfish and violent individual who doesn't particularly grow or change as a person through most of the story. Do you have examples of literature where this sort of characterization really worked or didn't work for you, or of how you tackled the unsympathetic protagonist issue....

I would say that you should look to 2 characters as good examples: Richard III and Michael Corleone.

It is Michael's world that shapes him and makes him compelling. He truly believes that all powerful men have enemies killed. If he grew up the son of let's say, a school teacher, how would his world view be different than in a world of mafiosa? I think we all see ourselves in him and that we might act as he did if we were in his place.

Richard III has no good qualities but his style and cunning make him compelling. Really, a hunchback that can seduce the wife of an innocent you've murdered?

[Coppercloud]

It would actually help me a great deal if you were to point to select passages or chapters in the book (if you have a copy) that you feel really capture this protagonist and why you find him compelling; it would spare me some significant effort. Either page numbers if the pagination is consistent across editions, or maybe chapter and paragraph numbers.

While I do own a copy, I'm afraid I won't have the time to re-read it and quote precise paragraphs immediately. From a quick search, it appears the first two chapters are available on Amazon and the site Babelio has a few quotes submitted by users that will provide a good sample of the style of the novel (mostly its cynicism and dark humor).

Also, according to the author's Wikipedia page, an English translation is in the works!

That's good news, although it must be a real pain to translate due to the extensive use of slang.

The novel is also a good example for Batcathat's point about fully recognizing how rotten the character is, without hypocrisy.

[Bartmanhomer]

How do writers have so many ideas to write for a story and continue to write to this present day?

[akma]

I'm sort of an obsessive writer, what I posted here is the tip of the iceberg. English is not my native language, so writing anything in length in English is tiring, and this site is not a good place to discuss many of my ideas - the easiest example is an idea for a book about Israel as a supernatural theocracy that does some crazy stuff, but it would probably be impossible to discuss it here without running afoul of forum rules, and I do know people who could provide a lot of valuable input on the matter (I live in Israel).

I wrote two books, currently working on a third. I don't want to elaborate on them much. They are unrelated to the supernatural theocracy thing, although the first is religious horror.

My post history is not reflective of my writing, which is often horror oriented and commonly scifi oriented, although my inspiration goes pretty much everywhere.

How do writers have so many ideas to write for a story and continue to write to this present day?

Personally, I drown in inspiration. I often think of some concept and develop it with logical conclusions, and take it in directions based on what I feel is cool and what is different from what I've already done.

The easiest way to get something original, is to take different themes / concepts, combine them and think of how that would look like. One of my recent ideas is "body horror in a somewhat D&D like universe", although this one I'll probably abandon soon (the main issue in that world is that overhealing, and sometimes regular healing, creates unusual anatomy).

If you take any two or more concepts from this list and combine them, you'll probably get something fresh: Clockwork, Fairytale, Retrofuturism, Dog fighting, False history, Transhumanism, Fake people.

It also helps that sometimes I get weird dreams, so I can develop them into cool ideas.

[Bartmanhomer]

Personally, I drown in inspiration. I often think of some concept and develop it with logical conclusions, and take it in directions based on what I feel is cool and what is different from what I've already done.

The easiest way to get something original, is to take different themes / concepts, combine them and think of how that would look like. One of my recent ideas is "body horror in a somewhat D&D like universe", although this one I'll probably abandon soon (the main issue in that world is that overhealing, and sometimes regular healing, creates unusual anatomy).

If you take any two or more concepts from this list and combine them, you'll probably get something fresh: Clockwork, Fairytale, Retrofuturism, Dog fighting, False history, Transhumanism, Fake people.

It also helps that sometimes I get weird dreams, so I can develop them into cool ideas.

I agree. I've been writing so many Degrassi stories and crossover stories that have been inspired by pop culture and D&D.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

My wife has published her first novel!
Here's a longer post about that in the commercial content section - and here's where I brought up the news that she was writing things on this thread when it first started.

I am so enormously proud of her - she's very shy about promoting herself, but her work really is exciting a fun to read, she's very skilled!

[Bartmanhomer]

My wife has published her first novel!
Here's a longer post about that in the commercial content section - and here's where I brought up the news that she was writing things on this thread when it first started.

I am so enormously proud of her - she's very shy about promoting herself, but her work really is exciting a fun to read, she's very skilled!

Cool. Congrats on your wife's writing.

So anyway I'm writing a horror story about a dragon killing humans and writing horror isn't easy as I thought it would.

[Fiery Diamond]

Hello all!

I will never be a published writer, but writing fantasy stories is my hobby, and I have written probably somewhere around one and a half million words on all stories combined in the last decade. I have the bad habit of rarely finishing my novels (though my longest story consists of four completed novels and a fifth one that is only a couple chapters in), but the main reason I'll never be published is that I HATE revising, and I also hate paring down word count through editing - I'm very wordy and rarely concise, and I happen to like that about my writing. For the most part, I make up my stories as I go along rather than making outlines, which probably contributes to my habit of not finishing things. A lesser reason that I'll never be published is that I'm very thin-skinned when it comes to criticism of my writing, which is not very conducive to getting a completed work polished for publishing.

But really, that doesn't matter much to me, as I write for my own enjoyment more than anything else. Do I like sharing my writing with others who I think will take pleasure in reading it? Absolutely; I love doing that. But the main reason for me writing is the joy of coming up with stories, and the joy of being able to read my own work. I first got started into writing stories as a single-digit-aged kid because I had ideas bouncing around in my head and wanted to read them, but nobody had written them, so I figured why not do it myself? I'm told a lot of writers are their own worst critics and are always seeing things wrong or lacking with their own works, but I've never really experienced that. It's not that I think I'm an amazing writer or anything, but I have about two and a half decades of experience writing, so my writing has improved over time along with my standards, and I happen to like my own writing style.

Currently, I'm writing on two different stories, one of which I've written about 29K words on and the other of which I've written about 35K words on. The following are the blurbs I wrote up for them when sharing them with a friend of my via email.

1) Prismatic Blade: Set in a fantasy world in which there was a cataclysmic war 2000 years ago that has faded into legend, 18 year old Jian, a boy recently kicked out of his home by his stepfather, decides to become an Explorer, Collector, Slayer, or combination of all 3: a person who explores ruins, fights monsters, and collects artifacts and monster parts. During one such exploration in an ancient ruined city, he is plunged below ground and makes two shocking discoveries...

2) Otherworldly Magic Shop: A paraplegic man dies of an illness, but what awaits him is a strange curiosity shop - an in-between place where he must make a choice: pass on to the afterlife, reincarnate, or transmigrate his soul into a new body in a completely different world. Picking the final option, he is then told to select five items from the shelves, each of which will grant him a special power in the new world. The most important item he finds is a contract for ownership of a magic shop...

The contract is actually based on (slightly altered from) a writing prompt I found online. Well, it's listed as a CYOA, but it's really a writing prompt.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm a writer, but I'm bad at being consistent about it. I've got so many ideas yet so little progress on any of them and I've yet to figure how to push myself to follow through and actually work on them.

like one idea will be "what if DBZ world-destroyers but galactic politics centered on their existence" another will be "what if Pokemon meets bioshock" or "Superheroes meets bioshock" as my latest ideas but I don't get anywhere far on them or when I start I quickly peter out. which is bad, because all my inspiration doesn't matter if I don't put the work in to make them worthwhile. like before those, my idea was "world inspired by Exalted" and before that was a world where everyone conjures weapons and armor to empower themselves where an empire has taken over. sometimes I think its my own wandering attention screws me over, sometimes my procrastination....I wish I knew what my problem was so I could fix it and just focus and get a story done that isn't a short one.

[Bartmanhomer]

I'm a writer, but I'm bad at being consistent about it. I've got so many ideas yet so little progress on any of them and I've yet to figure out how to push myself to follow through and work on them.

like one idea will be "what if DBZ world-destroyers but galactic politics centered on their existence" another will be "what if Pokemon meets bioshock" or "Superheroes meets BioShock" as my latest ideas but I don't get anywhere far on them or when I start I quickly peter out. which is bad, because all my inspiration doesn't matter if I don't put the work in to make them worthwhile. like before those, my idea was a "world inspired by Exalted" and before that was a world where everyone conjures weapons and armor to empower themselves and where an empire has taken over. sometimes I think it's my wandering attention that screws me over, and sometimes my procrastination...I wish I knew what my problem was so I could fix it and just focus and get a story done that isn't a short one.

Well, maybe you should try to focus on one story you want to write about. I do that sometimes.

So anyway. I completed my next Degrassi story on Wattpad and I'm trying a break from writing for a few days.

[P. G. Macer]

I don’t wander into the Friendly Banter subform often, so I just saw this thread now.

I too am a writer, currently just over a month away from graduating from college with what is essentially a creative writing degree.

I primarily write in the fantasy genre, where I have two novel projects. One would be a bog-standard high fantasy epic were it not just as concerned with the characters’ inner emotional arcs as much as grand adventure. The other is a YA urban mythological fantasy taking place in a cruel boarding school in Alaska. Think the webcomic Gunnerkrigg Court meets the Percy Jackson books, but a darker than either of them. I like talking about both of them, though my ability to talk about the latter here will be limited due to the Forum Rules.

Currently I’m focused on the high fantasy novel, while the urban fantasy is on the backburner.

[Lissou]

Hey guys!

I've been writing a novel and decided that I would write it in French rather than English after all. However one of the main characters is nonbinary so I've been struggling with that a lot. But I like the challenge and it's part of why I want to write it in French and try to help it be more common for French media such as books to have nonbinary characters.

I don't really have a question, I just wanted to share.

[Batcathat]

I've been writing a novel and decided that I would write it in French rather than English after all. However one of the main characters is nonbinary so I've been struggling with that a lot. But I like the challenge and it's part of why I want to write it in French and try to help it be more common for French media such as books to have nonbinary characters.

Oh, is French one of those languages where all words have a gender? That just seems like an unecessary feature, regardless of specific problems like this. Like, how does it help anyone to know that a chair is a girl and a salt-shaker is a guy or whatever?

It also reminds me of that scene in the Office where Michael Scott covered everything in post-its with genitals, but I suppose the French language can't exactly be blamed for that.

[Buufreak]

Never published, but I've been known to jot down some intimate thoughts, then gradually expand them into narratives with chapters. I wouldn't say I am any good, and I have a bad habit of not finishing anything I start, but I suppose it counts as writing.

To any others, I grant onto thee ENCOURAGEMENT!

[akma]

I'm a writer, but I'm bad at being consistent about it. I've got so many ideas yet so little progress on any of them and I've yet to figure how to push myself to follow through and actually work on them.

like one idea will be "what if DBZ world-destroyers but galactic politics centered on their existence" another will be "what if Pokemon meets bioshock" or "Superheroes meets bioshock" as my latest ideas but I don't get anywhere far on them or when I start I quickly peter out.

Maybe you're just not specific enough.
I admit I am completely ignorant about DBZ world-destroyers, so I'll focus on galactic politics. Galactic politics could mean different things - Is there a galactic government? Is it like the UN? Is it a democracy / dictatorship / theocracy / monarchy / neither of those? Are the different aliens different enough from each other in ways that hinder cooperation? How much are things decided by shady backroom deals?
A quicker and dirtier way would be to look at scifi works you know and comparing to them. How would it be like the politics in Babylon 5? How would it be different from it? Etc.

I've been writing a novel and decided that I would write it in French rather than English after all. However one of the main characters is nonbinary so I've been struggling with that a lot. But I like the challenge and it's part of why I want to write it in French and try to help it be more common for French media such as books to have nonbinary characters.

The linguistical issues could be part of the narrative - if there is no gender neutral way to refer to someone, people could stick to one gender when referring to that person, which could bother them.

To any others, I grant onto thee ENCOURAGEMENT!

Thank you, I shall use it only for evil.

[XavierBrixton]

A friend showed me this thread. I've been a writer since 2005. I have three novels under my belt thus far. We write for YA fiction mostly and never thought of mixing it with our RPG antics. Now reading this thread, I'm tempted to mix the two faves in our lifetime. Not sure if anyone in this thread has ever thought of venturing into a novel in their lifetime. Writing a novel has taught us many things in our novel journey. It's a lifetime journey nobody should never turn away.