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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It's not like Yoda knew Windu was in trouble when he decided to take the clones. If I kick you in the back and that realigns your verterbrae, that doesn't mean I kicking you was a good idea. Luck doesn't justify bad decision-making.
    "In my experience there is no such thing as luck" -- Obi-Wan, Episode IV.

    Yoda can see the future, is sensitive to disturbances in the Force, and moreover is able to allow the Force to direct his actions. I think he was acting with foreknowledge when he did what he did, even if he himself wasn't aware at a conscious level why he was doing it.

    The only reason Windu need help is because he decided to spread his troops around the arena and took literally no-one with him to confront Dooku. Like seriously he walks in alone to the booth with all the people he needs to capture and puts his lightsaber to Jango's neck, not Dooku's. If he'd had a dozen (out of the one hundred he took) Jedi accompany him the war would have ended before it even began. Also, ghe resue operation without taking any vehicles to make a getaway is a nice touch.
    Don't ask me to defend the tactics of that particular escapade, because I won't. I suppose we can't expect the military expertise shown in the movies to be greater than that of the filmmakers, who are amateurs at such things. I grant they probably had a military advisor on set, but they'd never let anything like tactical realism get in the way of telling a story.


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    Last edited by pendell; 2023-01-27 at 02:26 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    In defence of the Jedi's god awful approach to the whole Geonosis Arena thing, they weren't there to fight a war or perform an assassination, they were there to make an arrest of a former respected colleague and his co-conspirators in an assassination plot. IIRC they didn't actually know there was a droid army being built at the time, let alone one ready to deploy into the arena.*

    As far as they were concerned they were going to face Dooku, Fett, a handful** of geonosion soldier caste warriors and the B1 escorts guarding the megacorp representatives. Theoretically the power differential is so high that Dooku and co would have no choice but to surrender or flee. That there's an army ready to fight them is not something they were fully aware of beforehand, and they couldn't spend time snooping around without risking delaying so long that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme get executed.

    Jumping into the arena was still pretty damn stupid, I get they wanted to interrupt the execution and all, but why not get a few masters and knights on Dooku, and one on each of the megacorp dignitaries. There were more than enough Jedi there after all.


    *Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area? For that matter, why is a droid factory so close to the arena in the first place?

    **The Jedi seem largely ignorant of the geonosion culture, so they'd probably be expecting something like Naboo's guards, a few dozen moderately trained volunteer soldiers primarily tasked with guarding Poggle, and not hundreds or even thousands of rapid response flying career/slave soldiers who can spend most of their time trying to kill the invader.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    In defence of the Jedi's god awful approach to the whole Geonosis Arena thing, they weren't there to fight a war or perform an assassination, they were there to make an arrest of a former respected colleague and his co-conspirators in an assassination plot. IIRC they didn't actually know there was a droid army being built at the time, let alone one ready to deploy into the arena.
    Obi-wan's message says so. That's why they sent so many Jedi in the first place.

    As far as they were concerned they were going to face Dooku, Fett, a handful** of geonosion soldier caste warriors and the B1 escorts guarding the megacorp representatives. Theoretically the power differential is so high that Dooku and co would have no choice but to surrender or flee. That there's an army ready to fight them is not something they were fully aware of beforehand, and they couldn't spend time snooping around without risking delaying so long that Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme get executed.
    If so, why spread out among the audience?

    Jumping into the arena was still pretty damn stupid, I get they wanted to interrupt the execution and all
    Which they should have done by bringing a ship or speeder of some kind into the arena to get out of there quickly.


    Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area?
    It's possible this was some kind of trap. A ridiculously complicated one with many moving parts, if so.
    Alternatively, maybe there was supposed to be a demonstration of the droids' fighting abilities or some kind of parade?
    For that matter, why is a droid factory so close to the arena in the first place?
    Geonotians like their stuff very close together?

    The Jedi seem largely ignorant of the geonosion culture
    Does anyone know if there ever was a geonotian Jedi in either continuity?
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It's possible this was some kind of trap. A ridiculously complicated one with many moving parts, if so.
    In fairness Dooku and Palpatine might have been in communication, and the Jedi might have ran using an army to invade a planet past the chancellor's office (or the Kaminoans might have told him) - if so Dooku would have all the info he needed to stage a trap (and thereby start the Clone Wars which might otherwise have been the Clone Strategic Operation).

    Does anyone know if there ever was a geonotian Jedi in either continuity?
    Not that I am aware of - further according to wookieepedia in legends: 'No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species'.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Geonosian biology and psychology together make them unable to wield the Force, and even if one was Force sensitive it wouldn't be willing to leave the planet. Biological caste system with the associated psychology and all that. Free will isn't really a thing for them, while they may desire to rise up from their rank, if a drone or soldier, they never consider the thought of leaving the hive.

    I think the Jedi, like most people, only know a tiny amount about the planet and it's people. Geonosians are xenophobic and their planet is frankly miserable for them to live on, let alone other species, tours of the underground and xenological studies weren't really a thing.

    I think most outsider contact consisted of businessmen and rulers going there, talking to a duke about business deals, and leaving before the planet gives them a rash. Come back later to tour a factory, leave with a rash, send an underling next time.

    There's no crime on Geonosis so to speak, no Force sensitives, and little real politics, so the Jedi have no formal reason to ever go there. The only reason to go is to get something built quickly and cheaply using the efforts of a massive labour population, which isn't really a Jedi priority.


    Went and checked the information Obi-Wan sent to the council, it's not actually all that much. The TF is there to collect an army that was being built for them, and the Commerce Guild and Corporate Alliance are pledging their support to a future war (no mention of their forces being present already.*) The Trade Federation's established droid forces were OOM/B1 units, droid starfighters and AAT tanks. Nothing about an army being present and ready to fight, the more exotic droids brought by the other factions being present, or the existence of the new B2s. Were I to recieve the message I'd be expecting a few hundred thousand B1 units in shipping containers, rather than a mixed force including extremely expensive anti-armour tank droids that belong to the freaking Banking Clan, ready to fight within an hour or so of my arrival.

    I'd still deploy very differently, getting Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan out of the arena would be a higher priority than arresting anyone. But with 212 Jedi I'd probably get a bit headstrong. Would definitely have grabbed any judicial corps forces that could be mustered in time as well, but it was a fairly short notice trip. Matter of a few days at most from the message being sent to the Jedi arriving I think, and they still only made it just in the nick of time (speed of plot hyperdrives I suppose.) It's not all that much time to prepare.


    *It's actually a bit odd that the various other CIS megacorp backers have their armies on Geonisis at all. Why did you land a substantial part of your personal forces, many of which are extremely expensive, just to load them into big fragile sphere transports with a load of B1 and B2s? You already have transports capable of carrying them, why go to the hassle of unloading them from existing transports and reloading them onto different transports while also finalising negotiations for the military alliance you're pledging them to? All the hailfire droids and such should be in space, in cargo bays, except for an honour guard of them on the ground with their respective delegations.
    Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    *Which in hindsight is odd in itself. Why were a regiment of battledroids ready to march into the arena on command? They were being loaded onto transports at the time, why have a bunch of them near an entertainment/execution area?
    Probably because the whole setup is a trap, meant to start a war or at the very least lay the last remaining bits of groundwork for one. Regardless of the legal technicalities involved, summarily executing Obi-Wan so soon after capturing him and in such a way is blatantly a deliberate provocation and an open challenge to the authority of the Republic and the Jedi Order. It's meant to force the Republic, or at least the Jedi, to come down hard on Geonosis while giving Dooku and Palpatine a chance to reveal that the Separatists, or at least the Geonosians, are building a massive droid army in secret, thereby polarizing many or all of the people still on the fence about the Separatist movement and the Military Creation Act and very likely giving the Military Creation Act the impetus it needs to make it through the Senate even if it somehow doesn't start a war outright.

    On top of that, Dooku is about as well-positioned as anyone to predict how the Jedi would respond to Obi-Wan's public summary execution, he's likely able to make an informed estimate of how well whatever passes for the Geonosian armed forces would fare against that response, he's trusted by the Geonosian leadership, he knows about the clone army and almost certainly also that the Jedi have discovered it, and he wants to ensure that the war he's trying to start isn't over almost before it begins so he needs to ensure that the Separatist leaders on Geonosis or actually present at the arena - most particularly himself - have the best possible chances of escaping cleanly to carry on the war should the Jedi bring out the clone army when they try to drop the heavy end of the hammer on Geonosis. If he tells Poggle the Lesser that he needs to keep a regiment or two of battle droids at the arena to deal with the likely Jedi response, Poggle the Lesser's probably going to listen.

    Also, regarding the proximity of the arena to at least one droid factory, it's really not all that unusual for industrial sites to be relatively close to entertainment complexes, especially historically speaking as it hasn't always been nearly as convenient to have significant separation between where you live, work, and play as it is in the modern world. Major entertainment complexes and factories both like to be where land's cheap and people can conveniently reach them, and while literally being on top of a heavy industrial site is perhaps a bit extreme there's plenty of real-world examples of stadiums within a mile or two of factories and power plants or more or less right across the street from things like warehouses, scrapyards, and freight terminals.

    Not that I am aware of - further according to wookieepedia in legends: 'No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species'.
    That line appears to be talking about Ur-Greedle, not Geonosians - the full paragraph is "The Ur-Greedle were close evolutionary cousins of the Geonosians and developed from the same insectoid forebears. No Force-users were known to exist amongst this species."

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    That line appears to be talking about Ur-Greedle ...
    It isn't - the source they give lists the line as 'No Geonosian Force-Users are known to exist', but the source is less available then the wookieepedia article, said source is from a sourcebook for an RPG and it doesn't expressly forbid members of the species being force users so make of that what you will.

    The wiki for the game does however list them with the line here.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    The idea that their should have been more Jedi in the box is reliant on the idea that it was quick and easy to get there, that if Mace had a dozen Jedi with him they could have just walked there with no issues. That's the fun part of 'should have done', it's reliant on assumptions about what happened offscreen. I believe in Legends there were more Jedi in the tunnels who were killed by Grievous.

    Options

    1. Do nothing.

    Result: Padme Amidala is executed on Geonosis along with Obi Wan. Anakin is either dead or fallen to the dark (losing both of them on the heels of his mom would break him) Padme Amidala is Archduke Ferdinand, Clone Wars kick off

    2. Jedi Rescue party. Same result, but with additional massacre or rescue party by separatist forces. Mace storming the VIP box with a dozen Jedi doesn't change this, he would have to get his captives off planet through all of their forces for this to mean anything. Unless he wants to massacre them all, in which case they become martyrs and war kicks off anyway. (Dooku can probably escape, he can just flip off the ledge if he needs to.)

    3. Jedi plus Clones. This one has a chance at victory. The Jedi arrive first, save the captives, buy enough time for the Clones to arrive. Clone Army captures Separatist leadership, disables their army. Negotiations begin, Sidious can still turn this to his advantage. but it's the least best outcome for him.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    The idea that their should have been more Jedi in the box is reliant on the idea that it was quick and easy to get there
    Dang, it's almost as if the movie portrayed Windu casually walking in unopposed with his weapon switched off and then revealed one hundred Jedi hidden in the public. I wonder what could give anyone the idea he easily got there.
    that if Mace had a dozen Jedi with him they could have just walked there with no issues. That's the fun part of 'should have done', it's reliant on assumptions about what happened offscreen. I believe in Legends there were more Jedi in the tunnels who were killed by Grievous.
    A massive fight that raised no alarm?

    2. Jedi Rescue party. Same result, but with additional massacre or rescue party by separatist forces. Mace storming the VIP box with a dozen Jedi doesn't change this, he would have to get his captives off planet through all of their forces for this to mean anything.
    Yeah, I'm sure Poggle and Nute will order their troops to open fire on the guy taking them prisoner. They're very brave like that. You know what a decapitation strike is?
    Unless he wants to massacre them all, in which case they become martyrs and war kicks off anyway. (Dooku can probably escape, he can just flip off the ledge if he needs to.)
    To where?

    The fact that i the movie they walk in there with no plan whatsoever does not mean they never had any chance, it just shows that they walked in there with no plan.
    Jedi plus Clones. This one has a chance at victory. The Jedi arrive first, save the captives, buy enough time for the Clones to arrive. Clone Army captures Separatist leadership, disables their army. Negotiations begin, Sidious can still turn this to his advantage. but it's the least best outcome for him.
    What? We've seen Jedi+Clones in the movie, what do you suggest they should have done differently?
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Dang, it's almost as if the movie portrayed Windu casually walking in unopposed with his weapon switched off and then revealed one hundred Jedi hidden in the public. I wonder what could give anyone the idea he easily got there.
    The alternative being that the high command of the Separatists in the VIP box are completely unguarded? One person got there =/= any amount of other people could easily get there with no issues. Also, there's a giant execution happening in a crowd full of cheering Geonosians, that's a lot of covering noise, and the B2s march into the box immediately with no one giving any command.

    Yeah, I'm sure Poggle and Nute will order their troops to open fire on the guy taking them prisoner. They're very brave like that. You know what a decapitation strike is?
    They might. Even in TPM, taking the viceroy hostage isn't enough, they need to disable the control ship as well. The B2s fire on Mace even though he is in the box next to their leaders.

    Decapitation strikes... usually don't work, whoever you kill is just replaced. If they get into the box and put lightsabres to everyone's throats, that is just a standoff. The CIS forces aren't just going to let them go. So they can theoretically massacre everyone...great, then they get massacred in return, war kicks off with the dead as martyrs.

    To where?
    The arena, where he can then take another exit.

    What? We've seen Jedi+Clones in the movie, what do you suggest they should have done differently?
    Nothing. It didn't go well for them, but was still the only option with the chance of a win.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    In the case of the CIS a decapitation strike might actually work. Not necessarily at stopping the war outright, but certainly reducing the scale of it.

    Several of the megacorps/corpo-states are implied to have been divided on the war, internal corporate politics being what they are, if it became likely that whoever succeeded Nute Gunray would face a similar death then I imagine the Trade Federation would pull out of the CIS, as would the Techno Union for Wat Tambor and so forth. Your profit margins don't matter if you're dead. They're cowards, and also the ones bankrolling the CIS army. With them gone a lot of their privately hired admirals and generals go with them.

    No Admiral Trench without the Corporate Alliance, no Grievous without the Banking Clan (is his origin still canon?) and so on. A lot of the commanders of the CIS were essentially on loan from the various corporation-states. The others were mostly local militia commanders or random businessmen who fancied their hand at command. Big loss in raw numbers, and a loss of several skilled commaners.

    Killing Dooku would make him a martyr, which would galvanise seperatist sentiment in a lot of systems, maybe even spur a few otherwise loyal or neutral systems to side with the CIS, but it would also remove the only viable leader of the CIS. Without Dooku to be a shoe in for the Seperatist Premier there's no one who can pose as a legitimate democratically elected leader and play around with the corpo-state backers behind the scenes while also being under the thumb of Palpatine. You'd have a much more disjointed and gridlocked CIS leadership as worlds with vastly different priorities try to negotiate a common leader.

    Putting all the pawns in the right place took several decades (arguably centuries or millennia when you factor in the Sith who first made inroads into the systemic corruption Palpatine works within) and replacing them might take a bit of work. Would some pawns have a replacement ready to step in? Sure, but there's a reason they aren't already the ones in charge of their respective faction of the CIS.


    A total decapitation strike still wasn't exactly smart*, but the Jedi are more used to dealing with things like pirates and mafias lead by singular domineering personalities, who do surrender (in Star Wars) once their leader is held at saberpoint. Unless there's a ringleader style underling waiting to take command, taking out the leader pretty much always works. Western/Samurai movie rules in a sense.

    The corpo-states/megacorps mostly play by these rules as well, funnily enough. When the various leaders are imprisoned they aren't just replaced, they get plea bargains, make concessions to the Republic and go back to working with the CIS the moment the pressure is off. Gunray, Tambor and Poggle all get imprisoned and later released by the Republic as I recall, rather than having someone else take their place while they serve their sentence. Republic penal system is about as effective as the one in Gotham it seems, it serves narrative above all else.


    *I'd have used those legendary Jedi reflexes, fly a few speeders in, snag the hostages and try to rapidly grab a few corporate heads and get out. Make arrangements with the Judicial Forces to blockade Geonosis as soon as possible, they'd probably arrive too late to stop Dooku and the remaining CIS leaders from escaping, but you have Jedi in FTL capable ships, track them to their new locations and get the slow rusty gears of the Republic turning. Bundling Gunray and Tambor into speeders like a pack of bounty hunters might not be dignified, but it would be a damn sight more practical than trying to arrest them on foot.

    'Course the Jedi also don't summarily execute people, especially unarmed ones, so holding people hostage outright, or attempting a decapitation strike on mostly unarmed people, was a damn stupid idea of them. How are you going to make Poggle stand down his Geonosians when you wont actually follow through with chopping his head off if he doesn't?
    Last edited by Grim Portent; 2023-01-29 at 05:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    This is where we get into fanfic territory.

    Determining what Mace should have done is dependent on stuff we don't have the answers to.

    How much knowledge does he have, how much time does he have, how much equipment does he have? If he needs speeders (and knows he needs them) does he have time to get them? Are their air defences he has to worry about? Does he know exactly where the prisoners are or do they have to do scouting first? You can make whatever outcome you want based on the answers to those questions, which any conclusion has to make up.

    Come to think of it, most of the Separatist Council aren't in the VIP box in the first place. It's Dooku, Nute, Poggle, Jengo, Boba, and other TF guy. Jengo and Poggle can fly, and Dooku can jump down to the arena if he has to, so the most likely prize is Nute. The rest of the Council is already elsewhere.

    Per TCW, Poggle isn't even that important, he's taking orders from a Queen, but even if we leave out other materials, we have the following.

    Dooku: Fantastic catch, but very difficult catch. He's the best duellist in the galaxy. Alive, he's super valuable, dead he is a martyr, and war kicks off, but without a very capable leader.

    Poggle: Planetary leader, running a factory. Important, but slippery (can fly). Unclear how replaceable he is.

    Jengo: skilled fighter, but not on Jedi level. Also can fly away if he has to.

    Boba: Useful leverage on Jengo, otherwise not very important. Easy catch.

    Nute: Head of very powerful TF, good prize, not too hard to catch. Might be replaced with someone who wants to make peace. Might be replaced by someone more dangerous. Just have to roll the dice on that.

    There ain't no easy 'I win' button here.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Its worth pointing out that a lot of the Separatist leadership are pawns of the Sith, and to a point the Jedi know that. Those specific individuals are important because of that, and even if they get replaced, then the Separatist leadership is no longer working directly for the Sith to advance their aims, even if the war in general still does that to a point.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Theoretically, but they don't know who can be replaced and who can't, so it is just a gamble. When Maul was cut in half, Sidious was not only able to keep his plans on track but upgrade his apprentice to the much more dangerous Dooku.

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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Season 6, Episode 3: Fugitive

    Spoiler: Recap
    Show
    We open with Shaak-Ti and Nala Se telling Fives about Palpatine's decision to have the "tumor", as well as all the data they have sent to Coruscant for analysis. Fives is to stay on Kamino, though. As she speaks, Shaak-Ti puts the tumor into one of two briefcases that are just laying around. Nala Se antagonizes Fives, saying he migth have killed Tup by removing the tumor. He replies that she was going to kill him anyway. The Jedi hands the briefcase to a nearby droid and orders for it and the dat to be sent to the Jedi Temple. The Kaminoan interjects that the oreders are for them to be sent to the Grand Medical Facility, not the Temple. Shakk Ti says it will get there... eventually. Nala Se protests and Shaak tells her to take a hike. Another Kminoan walks in flanked by two clones, Fives has a last physical to pass before being cleared to go back to the 501st. As he leaves, Fives spots the droid switching the briefcase he was handed with the spare one behind Shaak ti's back, but says nothing. Should have.

    En route to his physical, Fives cross paths with AZI (and his escort). AZI asks if he is going to be reprogrammed too. Fives says he's going back to the front lines, but AZI says he's heard Fives's mind is to be wiped and that he'd be permanently assigned to sanitation on Kamino. He hopes they'll still be friend after their respective memory erasures. Cute. Fives... takes it about as well as you'd expect. By which I mean he tackles the doctor accompanying him and knocks out all four clonetroopers present. And you thought it was just stormtrooper armour that sucked! AZI is just as shocked as the various onlookers in the corridor. In the time it takes for Fives to tell him that neither of them are going to have their minds wiped, the doctor punches an alarm and they have to leg it. "Are we escaping?" That got a chuckle. Fives runs back to the room he was held in and gets the tumor back, determined to find out what Nala Se is hiding.

    The two of them make their way to a hangar (apparently throught the good ol' trick of walking purposefully but calmly like you have nothing to fear) full of spherical ships. A pilot tries to tell Fives that all ships are locked down during emergencies but he punches him in the gut, which knocks him out. How hard did he punch? He's only got the time to apologize to his brother before Shaak Ti, Nala Se and a squad arrive. As they watch the two of them take off, Ti orders the ship tracked and clarifies that she wants him taken alive. Inside the ship, above the ocean, Fives asks AZI if he can float. He can and has several survival modes. Fives puts the autopilot on and opens the door. He has no intention of leaving the facility (where would he even go, anyway?), the pod is just a diversion to draw attention away from their snooping around. Pretty clever. The droid has more questions, but Fives throws him into the water. Fives starts swimming, but AZI reveals one of his survival modes: he unfolds handles out of his back and positions his hands under Fives's feet, allowing him to function as a kind of small jetbike. That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense for a world covered in water. Congrats.

    Meanwhile Nala reports to Tyranus, whose face is even less hidden that last time. Like, she has to know it's Dooku at this point. She tells him about fives stealing the chip. §This worries Tyranus: first a malfunction and then a renegade? How reliable are the clones, really? Se insists the malfunctionning chip is a simple statistical outlier, and blame the renegade on the Jedi inspiring "creative thinking" in some clones, enabling divergent behaviour. But she is certain that won't interfere with Protocol 66. Tyranus stresses again that the chip must be recovered before the Jedi find out what it does. Under the city, Fives climbs in via a service ladder and says he's going to need a change of clothes. Shouldn't be hard finding something his size. And of course, wearing clothes that don't mean "escaped medical patient" should make him much harder to find. AZI tells a trooper he saw the renegade clone head into a storage room and, in less time than it takes to say "punched from the back", Fives's got a shiny new armour. Next order of business: find a way to analyze the "tumor".

    AZI takes him to the genetic records hall. There are recordings of the genome of every being the Kaminoans have ever cloned. Seems like a bit of an overkill, but okay. Using that they can match the "tumor"'s DNA with that of Jango Fett and see if it is naturally occurring. They place the tumor into a receptacle. No match found. What's more it's only partially organic: which means that that thing didn't grow, it was planted in Tup's body. Which in turn means that this isn't accident or an illness, it was deliberate. In the command center (I guess), Ti and Se are told that there hasn't been any unauthorized departure form the planet... and that someone is acessing the Jango Fett's genotype. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what's happening. Ti orders the room evacuated... quietly. Still, Fives immediately notices that everyone is leaving the room. AZI confirms that there are exits other than the main door: emergency hatches are present in every major room in case of flooding. They take the chip and leave, again, just as Shaak Ti walks in. CLones start firing stun-bolts at them, and miss. Fives is shooting live ammo, though. The two rogues get through a hatch and AZI welds it shut before the other can follow them through. Se orders every hatch watched.

    AZI tells Fices that they should find out at what stage of development Tup received the implant, and for what purpose exactly. He can tell it's an organic (well mostly organic, I guess) chip, but not its function. Fives worries whether he also has a chip. His scans showed nothing, but they didn't find Tup's until they did the level 5 one, so that proves nothing. Fives knows he has one in his skull, and he wants it out (can't say that I blame him, that kind of thing would freak me the **** out). AZI is reluctant because of how dangerous of a surgery it is, but Fives trusts him, even if Tup died just after AZI removed his chip. I like that depsite both characters being unable to emote (AZI is a droid and Fives is wearing a face-concealing helmet), clever camera angles and good voice-acting make you understand exactly what both are feeling. AZI agrees ad they head to an operating theater (no clone guarding the exit hatch for some reason). Once there, AZI lies to Fives about an injection not hurting a bit and gets to work.

    There's a superfluous, but pretty cool, shot of two Kaminoans riding giant flying fish under the city in bad weather. In the command center, Ti and Se realize Fives and AZI slipped past them. But the Jedi realizes they're not trying to escape, but searching for something. What? She doesn't know. Fives wakes up with a freshly shaven head and a light on his skull. AZI did find an identical chip in Fives's head. Identical, but much healthier-looking. Tup's is decolored and full of holes, explaining the malfunction. This does not prove that the breakdown was an isolated incindent, though. And they have no idea what might happen to Fives without his chip. Fives wants to know if more clones have those and when they were implanted. AZI can tell that the most likely time it happened was back when they were embryos (I'm guessing he can tell from the way it fits with the brain?). Fives decide to check the embryos.

    They cross a classroom full of cadets, supervised by two kaminoans. Fives tells AZI to act normal, which he interprets as doing this, immediately raising suspicions. Fives thinks that was normal "for you, AZI", but the instructors immediately signal Nala Se, who fails to leave the command center unnoticed by Shaak Ti. in the gestation room (or whatever it's actually called) AZI brings up a few clones "in the earliest stages of development". Those aren't embryos. tThey're fetuses, alright, but they're so big, it looks like they'll be ready to be "born" in a couple of days. Also, baby clones don't have an umbilical cord. Does that mean clones don't have navels? No chip. But it is there in stage 3 fetuses. In all of them. And that's when Nala Se walks in. Fives points hi gun at her and demands an explanation. She says that the chip is a "structural inhibitor chip" meant to keep them from becoming aggressive, like Jango Fett. For a lie she had to come up with on the spot, that's not bad. It can't hold up to scrutiny (especially since aggressiveness isn't that bad a trait in a soldier), but still, pretty good, especially with a gun to her head. She adds that it was implanted there on orders from Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. Fives dodesn't take very well the notion that "The Jedi... did this to us?" Nala says that this kind of inhibitor chips aren't uncommon.

    Enter Shaak Ti and a couple clones (are those always the same?). Fives takes Nala Se hostage. He tells Shaak Ti about the inhibitor chip "the Jedi" have implanted in the clones and that Tup's mlfunctionned, making him lose control. AZI shows her the evidence (that is Tup's chip). Shaak Ti wants to know what happens to Tup to get his chip in this state. Fives doesn't care: Tup's chip made him dangerous, therefore all clones should have their chips removed or risk being compromised. Nala Se insists it's an isolated incident and that removing Tup's chip killed him. Fives retorts that he's had his removed and he's still alive. AZI shows his chip, saying neither it nor fives are malfunctioning. Se claims Fives made himself a threat by removing his chip and must be terminated immediately. While he has a gun to her head. Say what you want about her, but she's pretty brave. Or very dumb. Fives yells that he's not a piece of hardware, he's a living being. Dude, AZI is right there. Also, might as well uses this here. Se retorts that he is Kaminoan property. Ti corrects her: he's property of the Republic. (So I guess she was full of it last episode and they're not on loan?) Therefore, it's up to Shaak Ti to decide whether Fives is danger or not. She wants him to go to Corsucant with her and tell his story to the Chancellor. Nala begs her to reconsider. To no avail. She insists on coming along too, then. Shaak Ti accepts.

    Fives thanks the general for believing in him. "It's not a matter of belief, Fives. It is simply the right thing to do." That makes no sense. Fives thanks AZI and, as he's being sedated and carried away, tells him he'll see him on the other side. "The other side of what? -Héhéhé. Ah, droids..." End of the episode


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    So, AZI is still going to be mind-wiped, right? Poor guy.

    I really liked this episode. It had a nice pacing and some real development for Fives with regards to his self-understanding as person instead of just a soldier. AZI made for a good comic relief, in that his comedy stemmed mostly from his "dorky" personality but he was still very useful apart from that. If I had to point out one downside, it'd be that the episode serves mostly for the character to catch up with what the audience already knows.

    Once more the episode showcases how similar the clones and the droids' respective situation are, but refuses to go as far as to equate them.

    Shaak Ti seems all too accepting of Nala Se's explanations at the end. Not pointing out the switcheroo, that she wasn't informed about the chip, that the Jedi didn't order it or that Nala Se lied about not knowing what the "tumor" was. I'm hoping she will bring that up next episode.


    Next up: Orders... All 66 of them?
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    In Legends canon, it actually was a deliberate thing to reduce the aggression and independence from Jango Fett in regular clone troopers. His baseline clones resulted in highly skilled ARC-trooper types that were in fact so much like Jango that they were basically unable to function as soldiers (at least by the Kaminoans' standards) because they werent in it for a cause and werent getting anything material out of the war to motivate them, taking a specific paternal bond with some of their trainers to get them to cooperate at all.

    Basically, they wanted soldiers, not assassins.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Ew, biological determinism.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Ew, biological determinism.
    As opposed to the literal biological mind control chips?

    At least this has some basis in our current understanding of biology. We already know certain hormones can affect your mood and behavior in some ways.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    As opposed to the literal biological mind control chips?
    That already makes more sense than "this man's DNA makes it impossible to care for a cause."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That already makes more sense than "this man's DNA makes it impossible to care for a cause."
    It wasnt his DNA as such, it was the Kaminoans training methods. They made the ultimate commandos, but they couldn't wrap their brains around the idea that a strongly independent person needs to be convinced of a cause rather than just told its correct, and that trust is earned, not handed out with a rank and title.

    Take a man, give him skills and abilities like Jango Fett, give him the best weapons and armor you can afford. Teach him to kill and be violent without hesitation or remorse. Then tell him youre going to stick him in the middle of a conflict that has a high chance of getting him killed. What do you think he's going to do if he's fiercely independent and aggressive?
    Last edited by Keltest; 2023-02-14 at 07:17 PM.
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    To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

    The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.

    If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids. Though the Kaminoan threshold for 'rebellious' is very strict, these are people who cull their own population based on eye colour after all.


    For draft 2 they toned down the parts of the human body that make sapient life independantly minded, and stuck in control chips with coded override orders for emergencies (and scheming of course.) Early on in deployment the clones had very little imagination and didn't push back against stupid orders, it took some time for them to grow into the people the Kaminoans had tried to stop them from becoming.


    *In as much as any circumstances can be identical. Kamino is a very controlled environment, but even so some training batches would have had different interactions with instructors than others no matter how much oversight and professionalism is involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

    The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.

    If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids. Though the Kaminoan threshold for 'rebellious' is very strict, these are people who cull their own population based on eye colour after all.


    For draft 2 they toned down the parts of the human body that make sapient life independantly minded, and stuck in control chips with coded override orders for emergencies (and scheming of course.) Early on in deployment the clones had very little imagination and didn't push back against stupid orders, it took some time for them to grow into the people the Kaminoans had tried to stop them from becoming.


    *In as much as any circumstances can be identical. Kamino is a very controlled environment, but even so some training batches would have had different interactions with instructors than others no matter how much oversight and professionalism is involved.
    Draft 3 actually.

    Draft 1 was the so-called "Null class ARC troopers," 6 clones who were, shockingly, so resistant to being tortured into commandos that they overtly tried to violence their way out of it as children. The Kaminoans were going to just kill them and start again, but one of the sergeants that had been hired to train them basically took them and raised them as his kids, which is why they were still more or less part of the military.

    Draft 2 were 100 Alpha ARC troopers, who had similar attitude problems but were toned down a bit so that they would respond to a hierarchy.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    In Legends canon, it actually was a deliberate thing to reduce the aggression and independence from Jango Fett in regular clone troopers. His baseline clones resulted in highly skilled ARC-trooper types that were in fact so much like Jango that they were basically unable to function as soldiers (at least by the Kaminoans' standards) because they werent in it for a cause and werent getting anything material out of the war to motivate them, taking a specific paternal bond with some of their trainers to get them to cooperate at all.

    Basically, they wanted soldiers, not assassins.
    Not just in Legends, the original explanation given to Obi-Wan explains that the clones were genetically modified to be 'less independent' and 'more docile' than than Jango Fett.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    The difference between Legends and Canon seems to be* that in Canon the clones were always modified for obedience. No rebellious prototypes.**

    Which given the production timeline involved, makes more sense. If it takes ten years to grow and train a clone trooper you don't have enough time between Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones for Kamino to make multiple different prototypes. By the time they would know it was necessary to make the clones more obedient they wouldn't have time to grow the new batches.

    Kaminoan culture being what it is, they probably make all their clones docile as a matter of course. They're not exactly people persons, so having any and all projects shut up and do what they're told is probably high on their priority list.


    *Not an expert on all the comics and books and such, so there might be something I'm missing, but all the references to the prototype clones seem to be Legends material.

    **Not until someone decides to bring the idea of Nulls or Alpha-ARCs forwards anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    It wasnt his DNA as such, it was the Kaminoans training methods. They made the ultimate commandos, but they couldn't wrap their brains around the idea that a strongly independent person needs to be convinced of a cause rather than just told its correct, and that trust is earned, not handed out with a rank and title.

    Take a man, give him skills and abilities like Jango Fett, give him the best weapons and armor you can afford. Teach him to kill and be violent without hesitation or remorse. Then tell him youre going to stick him in the middle of a conflict that has a high chance of getting him killed. What do you think he's going to do if he's fiercely independent and aggressive?
    Okay, but all that's saying is that the kaminoans just suck at raising soldiers, nothing to do with the biology. If you raise a child in a controlled environment to be obedient, you get an obedient adult, it's not that complicated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    To an extent it was Jango's DNA. There are biological factors that impact your personality, especially as relates to more basic things like aggression or patience. Not the be-all and end-all, it was also the training, random variation and a whole bunch of other stuff, but that a few thousand identical twins raised in the same* circumstances simultaneously would turn out similar isn't far fetched.

    The Kaminoans took a bunch of identical people with the same genetic predispositions, put them in an identical military focused training system, and got the same or similar results in almost all subjects. The early clones had no unexpected or external infuences beyond interaction with each other and their trainers. They had also tinkered with their genes to make them a little stronger and tougher IIRC.
    Of course the clones would turn out to have all mostly the same personality (though social dynamics would amplify every little divergence) but the notion they would have the same personality as a guy who had a completely different upbringing just because they were cloned from him is patently absurd.

    If you took one of those prototype clones and raised it in a loving household where it was treated as a person rather than a lab experiment and so on, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see them come out as someone who bakes for a living, or tailors clothes or designs speeders. The kaminoans chucked them all into an abusive military upbringing and were surprised to consistently get rebellious people rather than obedient organic-droids.
    Well yeah, militaries are known to create conformity, not rebelliousness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Kaminoan culture being what it is, they probably make all their clones docile as a matter of course.
    Kaminoan cultures need not matter. They are paid to deliver a product (people) to do a job, if their product refused to do the job expected of them, they wouldn't stay in business very long. Like, with the exception of people wanting a child or three of their own, the cloners' clients are looking for slaves, their education program ought to be very good at making their wards obedient.
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    Bear in mind, the Kaminoans are not good with people, not even each other. They're emotionally cold, amoral, and dismissive of their underlings.

    The training they put the clones through has a history of not working well on people IRL, overly strict upbringings tend to result in rebellious children. Humans need certain things to develop properly and the Kaminoans met the needs they considered important for soldiers, but the Kaminoans don't appreciate the need for stuff like playing, or having friends, or freedom.

    There's raising a kid to be obedient, which sometimes works, and there's training a kid to be a robot, which never works. The Kaminoans do the latter, because they don't understand the psychology of other species and use gene tampering and bio-mechanical equipment to compensate for the failures of their methodology, and they still don't get the results they really want.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Kaminoan cultures need not matter. They are paid to deliver a product (people) to do a job, if their product refused to do the job expected of them, they wouldn't stay in business very long. Like, with the exception of people wanting a child or three of their own, the cloners' clients are looking for slaves, their education program ought to be very good at making their wards obedient.
    The clients aren't generally looking for slaves, they are looking for shortcuts to duplicate specialized skills. The ideal case is when there's rapid industrial change and there's not enough people with the relevant skills in a field that needs to suddenly expand by 10,000x. Especially when the process is limited to some rare species that only has a few million members and maybe a literal handful of individuals properly trained in the relevant task. If you suddenly need 10,000 copies of 'that guy over there,' cloning is ideally suited to provide.

    Now, in Star Wars, 'soldiering' is a specialized skill. Specifically, in obedient to the narrative laws of space combat - which says that you can't have nothing but machines fighting machines or the audience will almost instantly zone out - living beings have been mandated by fiat to make better soldiers than droids in the aggregate in Star Wars (highly advanced droids like HK or IG units are just as good as the best organic combatants, but apparently that's not economical). The Kaminoans presumably have a long history of producing batches of clone soldiers, probably optimized for various exotic environments that the various mercenary groups of the galaxy can't handle well, ex. sometimes you need an army that breathes methane and operates primarily in micro-gravity. The GAR is a massive outlier both in scale, but also in that the Jango Fett Clones are simply slightly modified Humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent
    There's raising a kid to be obedient, which sometimes works, and there's training a kid to be a robot, which never works. The Kaminoans do the latter, because they don't understand the psychology of other species and use gene tampering and bio-mechanical equipment to compensate for the failures of their methodology, and they still don't get the results they really want.
    Well, the portrait of the Kaminoans is highly inconsistent. As with most topics involving the Clone Wars, there's the Karen Traviss viewpoint, and then there's everyone else's. The Clones, as portrayed in TCW, seem to be pretty much exactly what Sidious wanted and the Kaminoans are justifiably proud of this. The Clones are more obedient than any natural human army ever would be, while still being extremely elite soldiers. The whole bio-chip thing is a bizarre complication that frankly doesn't really work. The original explanation, in which the Clones simply followed the contingency order - an order the Jedi knew existed - when it was given, was less complicated and made more sense. However, even though Legends allowed a number of clones to disobey that order, I think it was deemed overly dehumanizing to the clones, especially in the 'kid's show' context of TCW, and the bio-chip explanation was retconned into existence to shift the burden of blame from the clones themselves and more towards Sidious instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The clients aren't generally looking for slaves, they are looking for shortcuts to duplicate specialized skills. The ideal case is when there's rapid industrial change and there's not enough people with the relevant skills in a field that needs to suddenly expand by 10,000x. Especially when the process is limited to some rare species that only has a few million members and maybe a literal handful of individuals properly trained in the relevant task. If you suddenly need 10,000 copies of 'that guy over there,' cloning is ideally suited to provide.
    Yeah, those are slaves.

    You think the people paying for 10, 000, let's say ship mechanics, will allow their purchase to go become painters, farmers, athletes or accountants? Of course not, they've bought them do a job and not have a say in which one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yeah, those are slaves.

    You think the people paying for 10, 000, let's say ship mechanics, will allow their purchase to go become painters, farmers, athletes or accountants? Of course not, they've bought them do a job and not have a say in which one.
    I dont think the Kaminoans actually breed clones for anything other than individual projects like Boba Fett or mass warfare. From an ethical standpoint its kind of hard to say. Most clones are, so far as we see, like Captain Rex: there more or less voluntarily with the understanding that they did basically sign up for this. They get paid, have contracts, leave, all the regular army soldier stuff. But thats because the Kaminoans already weeded out most of the clones who would object, without the knowledge or endorsement of the Republic or Jedi.

    So the Kaminoans bred an army of slaves, sold them, and they were effectively set free and put under a more mundane contract.
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    Default Re: Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time (Episode II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I dont think the Kaminoans actually breed clones for anything other than individual projects like Boba Fett or mass warfare.
    Based on what? I'm sure there are plenty of places that would be interested in buying a workforce.
    From an ethical standpoint its kind of hard to say.
    It's hard to say whether or not it's ethical to buy people?
    Most clones are, so far as we see, like Captain Rex: there more or less voluntarily with the understanding that they did basically sign up for this. They get paid, have contracts, leave, all the regular army soldier stuff. But thats because the Kaminoans already weeded out most of the clones who would object, without the knowledge or endorsement of the Republic or Jedi.

    So the Kaminoans bred an army of slaves, sold them, and they were effectively set free and put under a more mundane contract.
    Are they allowed to quit?
    And before you respond, take a moment to consider that in this very episode, Shaak-Ti calls Fives "property of the Republic" and that they were considering terminating him with no trial whatsoever, not even a court-martial.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2023-02-16 at 08:03 PM.

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