OOTS #1273 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Is that a new initialism that I'm not hip enough to have encountered? Or just a subconscious typo for IRL because you do a lot of web development? :-)

Usually things like that are going to be autocorrect "fixing" things for me.

So what? It's proof enough that she is willing to barter with them, even when infuriated.

Yes, and? You said:
I provided one way to know that that we now for a fact they have access to, Tiamat. Whether or not they used it does not change that it exists.

Fine. The Order can do the same with Thor through Durkon and we know Thor is actively amenable to telling them these things so even in fantasy "access is the same thing as as getting" line of thinking they still don't know more than the Order. Better? Because whatever way you want to slice it they're not "the most informed" people in the comic.

[gbs5009]

Put me in the "imposter" camp. I suspect that Roy just told a whopper there, and is gauging whether she's building on the false details he added.

It could be the audition was something that she mocked him about for *years*, or it was a major family issue that he specifically took the family sword (as noted in 113) that she would never forget. Whatever it was, I think he knows Julia should know it.

[gbaji]

They found a new ally, in the North pole, where the only two features are the bubgear village Team Evil took over and Serini's compound. I'm not a betting man, but "the ally is Serini" seems like the reasonable guess.

Wouldn't it also be a reasonable guess for the Julia to make as well? For exactly the same reasons? Can't we reasonably assume that when Julia offered to help advise him in 1193, then we skip to Belkar and Minrah, then she apparently knows a bunch of stuff here we can assume that Roy filled her in on things? Or do we speculate that she was an imposter then because she knew Redcloak's name despite Roy never telling her?

One of these explanations (Roy filled her in on stuff so she could advise him like she asked) checks all the boxes without adding anything else. All others require fairly massive speculation. Again. That doesn't make them untrue, but I'm going to stick with the simpliest explanation.

He doesn't like his father and was reading, not looking up seems a normal reaction to me. Also what he said "Are you going to say something, Dad, or just lurk around watching me?" implies Julia stood silently for a little while waiting for him to acknowledge her presence.

She literally appears 5 feet directly in front of him. If she was visible the whole time it's hard to imagine that he would not have glanced up first. I interpreted "lurking" as "lurking invisibly", like his father had a few times before appearing in the past. I've always read that as Roy sensing what he thought was his dad's presence, and letting him know that this time he figured out he was there before he just popped in and spooked him or something like in the past. Only this time, it was his sister. It was clear to me that he's able to sense the sending, and that it feels like his past conversations with Eugene.

I could totally be wrong, but it seems odd that twice in a row now, Roy has talked to thin air seeming to know that someone was there, with no visual at all, if we're supposed to intepret that as "she was visible the whole time, we're just not showing it on screen, and instead showing a panel or two of Roy talking to her first". I mean, it works the first time because we get the whole "OMG, it's Julia" gag. But why do it a second time? Once again, we get Roy talking to thin air about being contacted via the blood oath right when she's there contacting him via the blood oath. Seems reasonable to assume that he can sense it *before* she actually appears.

Wouldn't it be simpler for the school to hand out the required weapons to each candidate for the time of their demonstration? =

Maybe? He said "my longsword" vs "my broadsword", suggesting possession (but not necessarily ownership). He could have either purchased the weapons as a condition for application and brought the wrong weapon to that days test, or was handed a set of weapons and (again) brought the wrong one to that days test. Heck. He could have kept the rest of them in a locker in the building right next to where the tests were, and he's just talking about which one he accidentally brought out to the field for testing.

The word choice "brought you with her" and not "with us" suggests that Roy was not living with his family at the time (or at least didn't travel with them to where the audition was). Which further suggests that whatever weapons he had, and however he had them, he packed them and brought them to wherever the audition was, from wherever he was (and that wasn't his family home). The "joke" is supposed to be Roy seeing a significant difference in two weapons which most people would have a hard time telling apart (especially a wizard like Julia).

And again, missing the forest for the trees here. If this is supposed to be a trick, it's a poor one. He should have said something about some event that a) Julia was old enough to have reasonably remembered, and b) was clearly incorrect and Julia should know was incorrect. Instead, he made some incredibly nuanced comment about the minor differences about a subject Julia doesn't know much about involving an event she should not reasonably be able to remember well anyway. So... eh. Not seeing it.

Hulia offered to give Roy tactical advice during her conversation on the airship. Impersonating her would be a convenient way to nudge the Order into a particular direction. Like trying to ambush Team Evil with Sunny in a way that would backfire, for example.

I suppose that's possible. Heck. Anything is technically possible. Let's not forget that if we're assuming the IFCC is involved, they seem to want the gate to be destroyed and the gods to destroy the world. So, I suppose if Julia gives him advice that seems like it would increase the risk that the gate is destroyed rather than falling into team Evils hands (while avoiding the Order actually saving the gate and sealing the rifts again), then that possibility may increase.

Again though, let's not forget that all of this is predicated on the pronoun. I still maintain we're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead of our skis on this one.

Thor said the Outsiders "[go] a bit nuts" if their memories aren't wiped "every time [the gods] remake the world". Seems to me that it's not knowledge of the Snarl that's issue, but witnessing the destruction and reconstruction of world. Sabine doesn't seem any worse for learning about it.

Them going a bit nuts could also refer to them doing things like what the IFCC is doing (ie: not the jobs they're created to do). Right? Perhaps the Gods do this specifically so that the Outsiders just continue performing the tasks they are supposed to do for each world they create rather than going off trying to change things on a more cosmic level. Awareness that the world they are in is not the first (or the millionth) and the Gods basically re-write them to fit each new world each time would be a huge deal and might cause a massive conflict.

I guess this depends on what knowledge about the snarl we're speculating that Tiamat may have told them if they asked. Again though, I get the distinct impression that what the IFCC is doing is not something any of the gods actually want, so it seems unlikely that Tiamat would help them by providing them information about the snarl. I get that she knows stuff about the snarl, and they want to know stuff about the snarl. But what's missing is "why would she tell them what they want to know"? From her perspective, they have no reason to know that information. Well, no good reasons (and good not being about alignment here, but more of a "keep the cosmos running as it should" type of thing).

[gbs5009]

And again, missing the forest for the trees here. If this is supposed to be a trick, it's a poor one. He should have said something about some event that a) Julia was old enough to have reasonably remembered, and b) was clearly incorrect and Julia should know was incorrect. Instead, he made some incredibly nuanced comment about the minor differences about a subject Julia doesn't know much about involving an event she should not reasonably be able to remember well anyway. So... eh. Not seeing it.

Roy's pretty sharp. If he *does* suspect an imposter, it might occur to him to try and catch them in a lie *without them knowing their cover is blown*. I think that's why he drilled on the topic... it sounds banal on the outside, but it's actually something that has a huge amount of signifcance to his family, and maybe even to Julia in particular.

Throwing out the "nuanced sword comment" then serves to reassure the imposter that it wasn't **important** that they didn't know the details... they can believe it's just a thing Roy's weirdly into. At that point, Roy's already onto them... the bait was saying "it makes sense you don't remember", and seeing if she objected.

[KorvinStarmast]

And last time Sabine met Roy, he beat her up threw her out a window. So… yeah.

What a fun date!
Makes you see why she liked Nale more than Roy ...

[Psyren]

Possibilities so far:

1) Nothing is wrong. Panel 1 is a typo/assumption by Julia, while Panel 11 is her not actually remembering the event and flustered because it might hurt Roy's feelings.

2) It is Julia, but something is wrong with her (e.g. possession/Sabine in disguise.) Panel 1's information would come from the possessor's handler, likely the IFCC keeping an eye on V, while Panel 11 was the interloper almost being caught.

3) It's Eugene pretending to be Julia. (Creepy.) Panel 1 would come from information Eugene gained scrying out of boredom, Panel 11 was again "Julia" almost being caught.

I was originally in camp 1, but now I do think Panel 11 seems a bit overly panicky for something so mild. So put me in camp 2.

(Did I miss a possibility?)

[KorvinStarmast]

(Did I miss a possibility?)

Yes. We will agonize over this for the next three weeks. More ideas will crop up as time goes on, and we don't even know what they are yet.

[Peelee]

Possibilities so far:

1) Nothing is wrong. Panel 1 is a typo/assumption by Julia, while Panel 11 is her not actually remembering the event and flustered because it might hurt Roy's feelings.

2) It is Julia, but something is wrong with her (e.g. possession/Sabine in disguise.) Panel 1's information would come from the possessor's handler, likely the IFCC keeping an eye on V, while Panel 11 was the interloper almost being caught.

3) It's Eugene pretending to be Julia. (Creepy.) Panel 1 would come from information Eugene gained scrying out of boredom, Panel 11 was again "Julia" almost being caught.

I was originally in camp 1, but now I do think Panel 11 seems a bit overly panicky for something so mild. So put me in camp 2.

(Did I miss a possibility?)

I've gotta say, the "it's Eugene" theory seems really weird to me. Because.... why?!? It's not like Roy told Eugene to never talk to him again. Their last talk ended about as amicably as we've ever seen.

[BriarHobbit]

Seems like the relationship between Roy and his sister is evolving and improving if only a littlte.

[gatemansgc]

Hee hee.

"What are they called again?"
"Certainly not something copyrighted, I can tell you that!"

perfectly dodged, i'm still loving it.

[JonahFalcon]

Why am I getting "SHEPARD WAS INDOCTRINATED!!!!" vibes, which persisted even after BioWare conclusively showed that was not the case and flatly said, "No. He was never indoctrinated."

[Alex Warlorn]

Would Sunny's anti-magic field work under an invisibility? Or any kind of visual illusion?
Because if they hide where Sunny really was... and projected an illusion of him where the beam could still be in a split second reaction but far enough away that the real Sunny isn't harmed. It could screw over the villains.

The moment Sunny uses his anti-magic beam, he'll become the No. 1 target on the battlefield, and the heroes having to spend just as many resources to protect him. But if they conceal his real location on the battlefield, and project an illusionary decoy, it'll leave the villains using up her anti-magical firepower for a few rounds, giving the heroes time to tip the fight in their favor.

[Alex Warlorn]

When did Roy tell his sister the order's new teammate was a she? Was she just guessing?

[danielxcutter]

When did Roy tell his sister the order's new teammate was a she? Was she just guessing?

Honestly, that part definitely could be. I'd say if anything it's the other parts that might put that in a different light. People assume someone is of the same gender of them a lot, I know I certainly do.

So it could go either way, really.

[gbaji]

Roy's pretty sharp. If he *does* suspect an imposter, it might occur to him to try and catch them in a lie *without them knowing their cover is blown*. I think that's why he drilled on the topic... it sounds banal on the outside, but it's actually something that has a huge amount of signifcance to his family, and maybe even to Julia in particular.

Throwing out the "nuanced sword comment" then serves to reassure the imposter that it wasn't **important** that they didn't know the details... they can believe it's just a thing Roy's weirdly into. At that point, Roy's already onto them... the bait was saying "it makes sense you don't remember", and seeing if she objected.

Sure. Could be. She was six at the time, but it's entirely possible that she noticed, or it was mentioned repeatedly at family gatherings, and perhaps she'd really teased him about it all the time, etc, and that's the "test". That she absolutely should recall this event, but doesn't say anything to correct him when he says she was young and probably doesn't remember. Heck. Maybe Roy has told this exact story a hundred times, and she always responds the same way or something, so he's judging her on that (a criteria we can't really know about). I just find that to be an odd test though (again absent the previous speculation or something similar). It's generally better if you're going to test someone to say something that is false, and get them to agree, then the other way around. If I claim someone did or said something that they didn't, they're pretty likely to respond to correct me. If I say they didn't do something, and they did, they may very well just go along anyway, or let the subject drop. They may think that *I* don't remember corrrectly, and certainly aren't going to correct me by insisting that they really did behave badlly or something, right?

Could be a test though. I mean, it would make an interesting twist. So yeah, not totally discounting the theory, just putting it on the "possible, but not probable list".

[Murk]

(Did I miss a possibility?)

I do agree Julia is not her usual self, but why does that have to mean she's being possessed/impersonated?

Can't she just be distracted? Feeling guilty about something? Trying to hide something?
Presumably she contacted Roy with a reason and so far she hasn't said what that reason is.

[WanderingMist]

Julia's definitely acting weird, but if this was a fake, how in the world would they know that Julia appeared using a green aura when contacting Roy through the blood oath? I think possession is the most likely answer rather than her being a disguise. Or just freaking out because she's suddenly got a lot to worry about that she never thought about before Roy told her.

[hroþila]

Julia's definitely acting weird, but if this was a fake, how in the world would they know that Julia appeared using a green aura when contacting Roy through the blood oath? I think possession is the most likely answer rather than her being a disguise.

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

[Peelee]

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

I was thinking that yesterday, actually.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I'm in the "possible, but let's see" camp, so let's try not to shoot down the opposition too hard like people did with my prediction about Hilgya turning up, m'kay?

[Tzardok]

I agree with danielxcutter.

[Barstro]

This being Sabine or someone else physically there explains Bloodfeast’s reaction.

[Terbovus]

Its nice after a long time away from the forums to see how people are keeping themselves occupied between updates and wonderful to see such continued active engagement with OOTs which my kids -aged 11 and 13 - have grown up with and loved to the extent that all our hard copy books have fallen apart and been taped together again multiple times. In fact, from the pile of loose pages on my son's desk its time to do again.

On the unnameable abomination, I'm delighted that my eldest (who started playing D&D last year) will now get the joke, as he does so many others as he re-reads it.

On the current theories, put me down for 'possible but lets see'

[Fish]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.

Whoever is doing the impersonation of Julia, if it is one, already knows about Roy’s “fighter school.” They mention it unbidden. But only then do they not know enough of the details of his audition.

This points more toward Eugene than toward Sabine. Absent father, scornful of his son’s choice, didn’t pay attention to Roy’s progress or achievements; and Roy has no reason to like or trust what he says, so he shows up (as he has done before), but in disguise. Illusionist. Spying from the afterlife. That’s pretty easy to explain.

The Sabine explanation has to cover why she knows about fighter school but not the audition; how she possessed Julia in order to make use of the sword’s link; and how she knows how to impersonate Julia’s relationship with Roy in the first place. Not impossible, but Occam’s Razor…

[Peelee]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.

Whoever is doing the impersonation of Julia, if it is one, already knows about Roy’s “fighter school.” They mention it unbidden. But only then do they not know enough of the details of his audition.

This points more toward Eugene than toward Sabine. Absent father, scornful of his son’s choice, didn’t pay attention to Roy’s progress or achievements; and Roy has no reason to like or trust what he says, so he shows up (as he has done before), but in disguise. Illusionist. Spying from the afterlife. That’s pretty easy to explain.

The Sabine explanation has to cover why she knows about fighter school but not the audition; how she possessed Julia in order to make use of the sword’s link; and how she knows how to impersonate Julia’s relationship with Roy in the first place. Not impossible, but Occam’s Razor…

By Occams Razor, it's actually Julia, since Eugene doesn't need to pretend to be anyone. He could just materialize as Eugene. Super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[theNater]

Here's a thought for anyone on the fence about this: Roy and Julia have now been talking for almost two full strips. How many times has Julia made fun of Roy or said something sarcastic during that time? Zero? That's like her defining characteristic. Prior to this, I don't think they've had a single non-snarky/mean interaction.

Julia's tone in these two strips is consistent with her tone in the previous conversation from the point where Roy tells her the world may be destroyed. The remainder of that conversation, coincidentally, is about two strips worth.

[Resileaf]

If there is anything that makes me say it's not Eugene, it's that narratively it would be pointless. Eugene has no reason to pretend to be Julia, he can easily talk to Roy as himself. Pretending to be her just makes him look like a creep for no benefit outside of getting a slightly less hostile Roy to talk to (which is a result he could get by being slightly less of an ass himself).

[hroþila]

Let’s not get too far ahead of ourselves with the Sabine theory. I agree that she’s out there somewhere and is going to try to interfere, but let’s hold our horses a minute.

My horses are already galloping through the great plains of JuliaIsPossessedByTheArchfiends and it's pointless to try to rein them in, thankyouverymuch

[faustin]

Well there's this 'vessel' that Sabine was supposed to get...

Hmmm...

And among all vessels, Sabine chose a girl whom she, alongside the Linear Guild, kidnapped and threatened in order to lure her brother and his party into a trap.

I cannot thing in a single good reason for Julia being willing to associate with that succubus.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm 99.9999% sure Sabine isn't possessing Julia, as that's not a thing succubi can do. She could likely impersonate a specific, known person, but a sibling is too much for her to pull off for long.

A 3.5e fighter is proficient in 54 different types of weapons; he may have brought two to fighter college.

It also makes sense that the entrance exams would involve a regulated version of the most common weapon for fantasy adventurers. (the differences between a broadsword and a "longsword" are too subtle for D&D mechanics.)

Assuming Roy auditioned for fighter college at eighteen, Julia would have been six at the time; plenty young to be ignoring important things.

I find the way he said "the halfling woman" a bit odd, myself. Maybe he's waiting to see if Julia will say "Serini" without him ever telling her what she's called.

That strikes me as a genre thing; the type of thing you'd say only if your a character in a fantasy novel.

Also, probably Julia (or Sabine) would probably think that "the halfling woman" is Minrah, not the "new ally", being as Minrah was the last person mentioned before that sentence.