Junkyard Wars XLI - Spellcasting + Rage - Rage Mage

[pabelfly]

Before we start discussing anything... please, please, please give me sources. This is extremely helpful when I need to research and understand your build. And if you want to discuss TO, citing page numbers and text is really helpful. But I digress.

Fair enough that I didn't properly address both. When you throw so much information at me, it's hard to keep track of everything, but that's my mistake. I'll do my best to go through it this now.

I tried to explain it in detail in the "Rules" spoiler. I suggest to reread it. I'll sum it up here to keep this message as short as possible:

1. Familiarity with the Target Form
In the PHB Wild Shape required "familiarity" with the target form. Since "familiarity" wasn't defined, it was mostly DM dependent how he will interpret and rule it.
Rules Compendium did rewrite the entire Wild Shape ability (p.26) and did get rid of that phrasing.
The new wording is "...an animal the druid has seen or could reasonably know about. The assumed form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level."
What you have seen can be determined by your characters backstory (confirmed by the DM) and what he has actually saw while leveling. And if you reasonably "know" something about a creature is determined by a simple "Knowledge" check of the right category for the type. For animals and vermin it's a "Knowledge: Nature" check (DC = 10 base + HD of the creature).
This makes it quite easy to "know" all possible animal and vermin forms for your current level (HD limitation). Since we can "take 10" for the skill check, we sole need the HD of the creature as ranks in "Knowledge Nature". By RAW this should prevent any discussions between player and DM if the druid is familiar and what it requires to be familiar. We can now rely on basic rule mechanics to determine if your character "has reasonable knowledge" or not by defaulting to "Knowledge Nature" checks.

2. In the PHB (p.37) Wild Shape used to refer to Polymorph to base its effect upon. And Polymorph referred to Alter Self (p.197), which had the limitation that "you are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race." That line limited the user to an average form, with average stats and no "Advancement:"
The PHB errata made the following change:

Wild Shape
Player’s Handbook, page 37
Replace sentence 3 of this class feature with the following text:
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability (see the Monster Manual), except as noted here.
...

The "problem" ( = exploit) here is that the Alternate Form special ability lacks any limitation in that regards.
Thus the druid ain't limited to "average members of the target race" due to the ERRATA changes. This allows for forms with "Advancement:" as long as it still fits the HD limit. And we sole need to pass the Knowledge: Nature check for the higher HD to know about the advanced forms.

Now.. lets combine everything mentioned so far with ...

3) Enhance Wild Shape (EWS)
We all know how broken EWS can be. I'll sole focus here on the most powerful option it offers: "to get the EX abilities of the target form".
Note: most feats default into the EX category unless they are magical and/or have a friendly reminder (SLA; SU). This statement (that most feats are EX) can also be found in the BoED (p.39; Exalted feats: the 3rd sentence). If you want a more detailed information on this, I can provide it (but it's lengthy). But for now I hope that this is enough (as said I try to keep the response short^^).
Remind you that creatures that have advanced by "Advancement:" are all unique (e.g. PHB races). And we ain't limited to pick the same specific Advancement every time. We can always chose another specific advance creature (with different additional feat progression for the extra HD), as long as we have either saw the individual or can reasonably "know" about such a creature (by a Knowledge Nature check).


4) Vermin Shape + Enhance Wild Shape
As said, most people (including guides) seem to be totally unaware how broken this Alternate Class Feature is. Vermins are normally mindless ("INT: -") and thus don't get the "general feats for its HD". This is a specific rule about "nonabilities" that causes this:

Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

But the druid retrains his INT, which suddenly allows the target form to be able to pick feats as normal. Remind you that Wild Shape ain't limited to an average member of the race anymore due to the changes in the Rules Compendium. We are shaping into an intelligent target form that thus will always have feats according to its HD. Its basically like an "Awakened" construct that suddenly has a mind and can pick its feats.
Finally note that you keep your original HD when Wild Shaping.. You basically get a 2nd set of feats for the vermin form (as long as we sole pick EX feats for the target form, which we will of course do).

5) Humanoid Shape + Enhance Wild Shape
This is similar broken as Vermin Shape. It's just that the build didn't push "Knowledge: Local" to know about "humanoids". But we can rely on any form that we have seen so far. If you wanna be cheesy and do annoying metagaming, you can basically force your DM to hand out any relevant information (for Humanoid Shape) to you for any "humanoid" you "see". Suddenly you know that the farmer in the corner of the tavern has a "5d6 Sneak Attack"...
I hope you get the problem with a player that gets this kind of information due to his Humanoid Shape ability mechanics that allows him to access those things. If the DM wants to prevent this, the target NPC would need to have more HD than we can Wild Shape into. It's madness..^^ I don't suggest the abuse here. I just wanted to point out the issue here...



Cheesy and kinda broken imho. But that is the current state of EWS after all the changes made to Wild Shape. If you want to make anyone responsible for this build: It was the combined work of the authors of the PHB ERRATA, the authors of the Rules Compendium and the author of EWS that created this beautiful mess of rules here..^^

2) Enhance Wild Shape
I don't believe this is an exploit, as discussed above.

Explanation see above. It's what can be done with EWS under the updated rules and with access to vermin/humanoid shape.

Happy to take the time, and I hope you had fun with the comp. Don't hesitate to respond if you feel like I've missed anything.

Thx again for taking your time. I also hope that you maybe kind find some joy in dissecting the rules. ;)

Rules Compendium has some rules for us for both Wildshape and Alternate Form. We don't need to delve into errata, especially since Rules Compendium is newer than the errata. I'm going to highlight two important paragraphs from Alternate Form rules on P24:

"The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its natural form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its natural form not derived from class levels."

"The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its assumed form."

The second paragraph conspicuously omits that you do not gain extra abilities from your new form due to class levels. Since the Enhanced Wild Shape spell does not explicitly change this rule, I cannot find myself agreeing with your rule interpretation.

I haven't penalized power solely because of Persist Spell. There's another Persist Spell build in the entries which I had no trouble scoring for Power. The penalty is for the sheer amount of spells persisted with your build, far beyond what would be reasonably expected in any sort of playable 3e build.

First I would argue that the Spelldancer dip is commonly used for Persisting Spells. I bet you didn't see much else done with Spelldancer. Due to the heavy feat tax there simply ain't much room for many meta feats. This is especially true if you consider the extra time needed to use Spelldance which makes regular use in combat (for e.g. Quicken Spell) near impossible.
Then I tend to think that the "amount of persisted spells" is sole significantly more when compared to the "other options to persist spells" (DMM; Incantatrix..). It's just that Spelldancer ain't used so much due to it's heavy feat taxes.
But when I see Spelldancer builds (here and on other forums), they tend to persist much more spells than any other build. Most just use a wand of Lesser Restoration for this or just play a necropolitain (IIRC there is even a E6 build out there). And as far as I can tell, those people seem to be actually playing those characters. So, imho it is just that most tables don't play with that many persisted spells, but some do (sadly not my table..^^).

You don't have to use Spelldancer to Persist spells. The fact that you feel this is the standard way to optimize the class could well be true, but it's a poor endorsement of the originality of your idea.

[pabelfly]

Rules Compendium has some rules for us for both Wildshape and Alternate Form. We don't need to delve into errata, especially since Rules Compendium is newer than the errata. I'm going to highlight two important paragraphs from Alternate Form rules on P24:

I just pointed out the the change to Alternate Form was done by the ERRATA first. It did find it way naturally into the Rules Compendium. No matter how we look at it, it doesn't affect my arguments.

"The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its natural form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its natural form not derived from class levels."

"The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its assumed form."

The second paragraph conspicuously omits that you do not gain extra abilities from your new form due to class levels. Since the Enhanced Wild Shape spell does not explicitly change this rule, I cannot find myself agreeing with your rule interpretation.

The "target form" (normal stats form the MM) gets altered by the (Enhanced) Wild Shape rules to result in the "Assumed Form" (our final stats).
The "Assumed Form" isn't mindless and thus ain't handicapped by the normal INT non-ability. Since that restriction ain't there anymore, the general rules to pick feats according to your HD are fully affecting the assumed form.
You would need an explicit call out to trump the general rule for picking feats according to your HD. And while regular Wild Shape has such a special limitation (no Ex abilities, sole EX attacks), Enhance Wild Shape is even more specific and does give us the EX abilities (including those feats that are EX). You can't stop the general rules for picking feats according to your HD from applying if the "mindless" condition ain't there anymore. It's like anything else that suddenly gets an INT score.
Note that Wild Shape ain't restricted to "average members of a race" anymore due to change from being polymorph base to becoming based on Alternate Form. Your assumed vermin form ain't mindless.

Even if we ignore the Vermin Shape debate for a moment, we can still easily access any creature with "Advancement:" options by either seeing one (important for humanoid shape; since we lack ranks in knowledge local) or by making a "Knowledge Nature" check (animals and vermin). Even that alone is imho still a new (TO) improvement compared to the common interpretation in the community (as far as I know). Creatures with Advancement just have more HD and sole increase the DC for the Knowledge check. And it's pretty easy to have enough ranks in the Knowledge skill to pass the max DC for your current druid level available.


This is/was my last attempt to explain my point. You are free to disagree ;)

Thx for your patience and effort. Especially since you initially wasn't the judge and did jump in.

Let's agree to disagree. You're more than welcome to make a thread to discuss the topic, and I'd be interested in reading what other people think.

[pabelfly]

Okay, before we start Trogdrak's rebuttal, I'm going to be reordering the text of the rebuttal slightly. This is because some critiques I have later in the rebuttal answer earlier questions. I'll post the full original and unedited text at the end for transparency purposes.

Thank you for judging!
I have some objections.

Persisted DMM builds are a dime a dozen.

Even Persisted DMM Spirit Shamans?
You did say nothing about my base class. Is it not original at all for you?

---

You know, I think you have a small point. I still think it's common, and the most obvious solution to the problem of combining rage and casting, but not quite as ubiquitous as DMM Cleric, at least. I still want to give you a penalty, but maybe I can be slightly more lenient towards your build. Let's give you half a point. (+0.5 points)

This is the first bit that is reordered:

Your stats boosts from Were form are wrong. Dire Badger would give you 4/6/8, not 12/4/12.

You are talking about Medium Dire Badger, my Lycanthrope half is Large Dire Badger, I deliberately got 4th racial HD to get increasing size. 12/4/12 is correct for Large Dire Badger.

Okay, I see where the mistake is between us. I went through the Lycanthrope template and worked the stats out because I was unfamiliar with the template, and wanted to be sure you did it right.

I don't think you did.

Here's an important bit of text from the Lycanthrope template: "[Hit Dice and Hit Points are the] Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal"

We’ve also got a bunch of examples to work back from, so let's look at the first example to be sure we understand how to apply the template properly. It's based off a Human with Brown Bear lycanthropy. Brown Bear has 6 RHD, Human has 1 RHD. The werebear example has 1d8 + 6d8 HP. So, from the text and example, we need to add the HD of both parts to work out our build.

So let's look at your build. Your Lesser Maeluth has 1 HD. Large Dire Badger has 4 HD. You should add these together to get 5 RHD for your Large Dire Werebadger. You instead have 4 RHD.

What I did when judging was attempt to remake your build to make sure the template was done correctly, I saw problems and went: "oh, you've done the stats wrong", rather than: "oh, you've done the template wrong".

Hopefully this explains the confusion, and why I'll be going through the rest of the build as if you're a medium character.

You try to stack a bunch of Enhancement bonuses together, and you can't do that.

Actually I didn't. Total Enhancement bonus exists in the column "Bite of the Werebear + Sirine's Grace + Ability Enhancer". It is correct. I didn't try stack Bite of the Weretiger with it. It were different options for different ECLs.

12/4/6/0/0/4 (Sirine's Grace + Bite of the Weretiger persisted)

I wish you had listed your stats at various ECLs, it would have made it much easier to understand. I don't want to switch between multiple points of your build to work out what buffs you expect to have going at a given level and work out whether your total stats are right or not. And part of the error here was you thinking you had a Large Dire Werebadger, and me thinking you had a medium-size one. But I made part of the error. Anyway, let's try to work out your level 20 stats.

Base - 8/8/10/16/12/18
Lesser Maeluth - 0/-2/4/0/0/0
Feral 4/-2/2/-4/2/0
Levels - 0/0/0/0/0/4 CHA
Total Base Stats - 12/4/16/12/16/22 (before Lycanthropy)

Lycanthropy (Medium Dire Badger) - 4/6/8/0/0/0
Boosts (Werebear, Sirine's Grace, and Ability Enhancer feat) - 18/6/10/0/0/6
Rage 4/0/4/0/0/0

Total - 38/16/38/12/16/28 (With Rage active)

I'll remove the point penalty from stacking Enhancement bonuses. (+0.5 point)

Now we have that, let's have another try at doing damage calcs.

22/22 Claw, 20 Bite

I see you didn't count in two more claws from Giralon's Blessing.

Let’s assume our opponent has 36 AC and 15 DR. Let's assume you bypass that DR.

But

19.5 (4.5 after DR)
16 (1 after DR)

Do I bypass DR or not? Highly likely I do, I have many options to bypass varies DRs.

1d8 Claw + 12 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang

2d6 Bite + 6 STR +3 Greater Magic Fang.

It's for medium creature, I'm large.

And I have Power Attack from Bite of the Werebear.

Plus you didn't mention my familiar anywhere in power calculations.

---

Okay, I made a few errors when trying to work out your damage. Let's do them again and work out your base damage.

Let’s assume our opponent has 36 AC and 15 DR. Let's assume you bypass that DR.
Let's assume you get four attacks each round with Girallon's Blessing. You don’t get extra attacks from high BAB due to Girallon’s blessing.
Let’s assume you’re medium.
Let’s assume you have Rage going and have +2 to STR.
Let’s do calculations for Power Attack 0 and Power Attack 5.

Attack Routine - Claw/Claw/Claw (secondary)/Claw (secondary)/Bite

Accuracy:
10 BAB + 14 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
27 accuracy (main claw)
22 accuracy (secondary claw)
22 accuracy (bite)

Damage
1d4 Claw (Girallon's Blessing) + 14 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
19.5 damage per hit

2d6 Bite (Medium) + 7 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
17 damage per hit

Damage output:
17.5 x 0.6 + 17.5 x 0.6 + 17.5 x 0.45 + 17.5 x 0.45 + 16 x 0.45 = 48.6 damage per round

Damage output (Power Attack 5)
24.5 x 0.35 + 24.5 x 0.35 + 24.5 x 0.2 + 24.5 x 0.2 + 22 x 0.2 = 31.35 damage per round

As for your animal familiar, you obtain it at level 19, and it’s at level 3. It’s not really relevant to your entire build, and even when you do have it, it’s not very important or strong, it doesn’t even merit a mention in your summary, I don’t see it greatly influencing your damage per round. Obviously, you’re quite welcome to calculate damage output against our theoretical monster with 36 AC and 15 DR and demonstrate otherwise.

Still, this damage output is now enough I’ll give you another (+0.5 points)

Damage output is still sub-par (I’d want to see around 100 damage per round) but I am happier than previously.

Planetouched is a region in PGTF which is defined as consisting of Aasimars, Tieflings, and Genasi.

Planetouched isn't region. It's category of creatures to which maeluth belongs.

Creatures that can trace their bloodlines back to an outsider are called “planetouched.” Because of their outsider heritage, planetouched have some unusual characteristics, and these qualities appear in descendants of the original planetouched creature for several generations. Though the maeluth, mechanatrix, shyft, and wispling presented below share characteristics among themselves, they tend to adopt the cultural beliefs that they are born into.

This is quotation from MM1:

Planetouched is a general word to describe someone who can trace his or her bloodline back to an outsider, usually a fiend or celestial.
The effects of having a supernatural being in one’s heritage last for many generations. Although not as dramatically altered as a half-celestial or a half-fiend, planetouched still retain some special qualities.
The two planetouched varieties described here are the most common. Aasimars are humans with some trace of celestial blood in their veins, and tieflings have some fiendishness in their family tree.
There is no “typical” aasimar or tiefling. They do not have their own societies or cultures, instead blending into existing ones. Many have character classes.

The text of Planetouched in Player’s Guide to Faerun specifically says: “in addition to all the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book.” While it’s interesting that the term Planetouched is used elsewhere, I don’t buy that it’s relevant to us when the variant is said to specifically apply only to races within the PGTF book. Occasionally reused names or ideas reoccur in 3.5 due to the huge amount of source books available, and it doesn't mean they're compatible. No score change.

The build implicitly argues that since Plant Defiance uses the same mechanics and calls out Turn Undead, it can thus be used to power Divine Metamagic. However, the feat Divine Metamagic specifically calls out only Turning and Rebuking Undead as fuelling it and nothing in Plant Defiance contradicts this argument.

Do you remember, I have a plan "B" - Bone Talisman?

---

Relying on specific items to achieve what your build wants to do is still a penalty for build elegance. No change to your score.

Persisted spells have excellent synergy with Rage, but you can't use spellcasting resources while you rage. You're also forced into Rage and can't stop raging.

It was in my entry.

8) Rage and spells overall. Yes, I can't cast spells while I raging and badgers rage has wording

...until either it or its opponent is dead. ... The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily

But I'm not just a badger, I'm a natural lycanthrope. I can end my rage in any moment just by turning into my maeluth form.

[/QUOTE]

Where does it say that your rage ends after you shapeshift back to maeluth?

Spoiler: Original Rebuttal Text

Show

Thank you for judging!
I have some objections.

Spoiler: Dispute

Show

Persisted DMM builds are a dime a dozen.

Even Persisted DMM Spirit Shamans?
You did say nothing about my base class. Is it not original at all for you?

---

22/22 Claw, 20 Bite

I see you didn't count in two more claws from Giralon's Blessing.

Let’s assume our opponent has 36 AC and 15 DR. Let's assume you bypass that DR.

But

19.5 (4.5 after DR)
16 (1 after DR)

Do I bypass DR or not? Highly likely I do, I have many options to bypass varies DRs.

1d8 Claw + 12 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang

2d6 Bite + 6 STR +3 Greater Magic Fang.

It's for medium creature, I'm large.

And I have Power Attack from Bite of the Werebear.

Plus you didn't mention my familiar anywhere in power calculations.

---

Your stats boosts from Were form are wrong. Dire Badger would give you 4/6/8, not 12/4/12.

You are talking about Medium Dire Badger, my Lycanthrope half is Large Dire Badger, I deliberately got 4th racial HD to get increasing size. 12/4/12 is correct for Large Dire Badger.

You try to stack a bunch of Enhancement bonuses together, and you can't do that.

Actually I didn't. Total Enhancement bonus exists in the column "Bite of the Werebear + Sirine's Grace + Ability Enhancer". It is correct. I didn't try stack Bite of the Weretiger with it. It were different options for different ECLs.

12/4/6/0/0/4 (Sirine's Grace + Bite of the Weretiger persisted)

It should be Bite of the Werebear.

Planetouched is a region in PGTF which is defined as consisting of Aasimars, Tieflings, and Genasi.

Planetouched isn't region. It's category of creatures to which maeluth belongs.

Creatures that can trace their bloodlines back to an outsider are called “planetouched.” Because of their outsider heritage, planetouched have some unusual characteristics, and these qualities appear in descendants of the original planetouched creature for several generations. Though the maeluth, mechanatrix, shyft, and wispling presented below share characteristics among themselves, they tend to adopt the cultural beliefs that they are born into.

This is quotation from MM1:

Planetouched is a general word to describe someone who can trace his or her bloodline back to an outsider, usually a fiend or celestial.
The effects of having a supernatural being in one’s heritage last for many generations. Although not as dramatically altered as a half-celestial or a half-fiend, planetouched still retain some special qualities.
The two planetouched varieties described here are the most common. Aasimars are humans with some trace of celestial blood in their veins, and tieflings have some fiendishness in their family tree.
There is no “typical” aasimar or tiefling. They do not have their own societies or cultures, instead blending into existing ones. Many have character classes.

The build implicitly argues that since Plant Defiance uses the same mechanics and calls out Turn Undead, it can thus be used to power Divine Metamagic. However, the feat Divine Metamagic specifically calls out only Turning and Rebuking Undead as fuelling it and nothing in Plant Defiance contradicts this argument.

Do you remember, I have a plan "B" - Bone Talisman?

---

Persisted spells have excellent synergy with Rage, but you can't use spellcasting resources while you rage. You're also forced into Rage and can't stop raging.

It was in my entry.

8) Rage and spells overall. Yes, I can't cast spells while I raging and badgers rage has wording

...until either it or its opponent is dead. ... The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily

But I'm not just a badger, I'm a natural lycanthrope. I can end my rage in any moment just by turning into my maeluth form.

[pabelfly]

Well, I still disagree.

Here's an important bit of text from the Lycanthrope template: "[Hit Dice and Hit Points are the] Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal"

We’ve also got a bunch of examples to work back from, so let's look at the first example to be sure we understand how to apply the template properly. It's based off a Human with Brown Bear lycanthropy. Brown Bear has 6 RHD, Human has 1 RHD. The werebear example has 1d8 + 6d8 HP. So, from the text and example, we need to add the HD of both parts to work out our build.

Let's look at this example.

The werebear presented here is a 1st-level human warrior and natural lycanthrope, using the following base ability scores: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Human doesn't have RHD at all. Single humanoid HD exchanges with first class level.
I think Trogdrak still is a Large Dire Badger.

"Single humanoid HD exchanges with first class level" - you don't have a single humanoid HD any more. You added a bunch with the Lycanthropy template.

Important reference: P310 of Monster Manual says: "Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class". The Lycanthropy template gives us more than 1 HD, so we can't disregard that hit dice any more.

If I'm incorrect, how do you explain that the example creature of human + werebear based off a Brown Bear having a total of 7HD when a normal Brown Bear has 6HD? It's written that it has 7HD, the maths comes out as it having 7HD. If my assertation is incorrect, where does this extra HD come from from the example monster?

I wish you had listed your stats at various ECLs, it would have made it much easier to understand.

Point taken. Sorry for that. For me it looks more easily understood, I see it could be different for not me.

---

Attack Routine - Claw/Claw/Claw (secondary)/Claw (secondary)/Bite

27 accuracy (main claw)
22 accuracy (secondary claw)
22 accuracy (bite)

While text of the Giralon's Blessing contains wording "secondary limbs" it doesn't mean "secondary natural attak".

The creature gains four claw attacks, each using its base attack bonus + its Str modifier for attack rolls. Each claw deals 1d4 points of damage + the subject’s Str modifier

You can attack with both claws at your full attack bonus, but your bite attack takes a –2 penalty (as if you had the Multiattack feat).

Monster Manual again, P312, under "Natural Weapons": "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature". Girallon's Blessing gives us an extra set of arms, that seems like natural weapons to me. "When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary". And that also fits with the spell defining specific limbs as primary and secondary. And secondary natural weapons take a -5 unless otherwise specified.

I'm happy with my interpretation here - the spell sees fit to specify primary and secondary limbs here.

You are right about bite being 25 instead of 22. My mistake. Your bite attack is 17 damage per hit, and with an increase in accuracy of 0.15, that's a difference in damage of 2.55 damage per round. No score change, but thanks for the correction.

---

As for your animal familiar, you obtain it at level 19, and it’s at level 3. It’s not really relevant to your entire build, and even when you do have it, it’s not very important or strong, it doesn’t even merit a mention in your summary, I don’t see it greatly influencing your damage per round. Obviously, you’re quite welcome to calculate damage output against our theoretical monster with 36 AC and 15 DR and demonstrate otherwise.

Okay. Quick calculation. I'm not sure how exactly you calculated damage output, so I make first step - my familiar's stats.

Familiar + persisted Aspect of the Wolf + persisted Bite of the Werebear, Sirine's Grace, and Superior Magic Fang.

Base stats - 13/15/15/mental
Boosts (Werebear, Sirine's Grace, and Ability Enhancer feat) - 18/6/10/...
Total - 31/21/25/...

It has my BAB, werebear's attacks (2 claws 1d8 and secondary (only -2 penalty) bite 2d8), Power Attack feat from Bite of the Werebear, +3 from Greater Magic Fang.
Look at "Some Spell Usage" #2 and #3 parts in my entry.

Wait, you are adding some very different numbers that shouldn't be added together. Aspect of the Wolf gives the creature a total of 13 strength, or +1 ability modifier. You add +18 ability modifier from your persisted spells for a total of 19 modifier, not 31. Your Level 3 weasel has 2 BAB, how does it get your BAB? Add the weasel's BAB to the STR modifier, you get 21 for attack rolls, so whatever damage you think you'll do gets multiplied by 0.3 to work out average damage per round, your bite is at -2 so gets multiplied by 0.2. This isn't going to be a significant damage addition.

I'll also point out a few other issues with trying to use Weasel to boost your DPR to something I'd find acceptable:
1) Your weasel has three levels of 1/2 d8 HP. Even with +10 CON modifier from buffs and +2 CON from Aspect of the Wolf, that's... 8.5 (3 levels of Weasel) + 12 x 3, or 45 HP. It's going to take one or two hits before it dies.
2) It's tiny with terrible reach. It needs to take attacks of opportunity to enter an enemy's square to attack. I don't like its chances when it has 45HP, and I doubt it's AC or other abilities are enough to compensate.
3) I do damage calculations to get a rough idea of whether you're doing decent damage at all levels, not just level 20. Adding a familiar that only appears at level 19 doesn't help me get an rough idea of your damage throughout the rest of your levels.

No score change.

---

Do you remember, I have a plan "B" - Bone Talisman?

Relying on specific items to achieve what your build wants to do is still a penalty for build elegance. No change to your score

Bone Talisman isn't specific item, it's my own spell!

Thanks for this.

The text says the talisman gives you one turn attempt for a second level spell slot. You need at least 7 to use DMM Persist, and your level 20 spell selection says you're going to persist five spells (Master Air, Friendly Fire, Superior Magic Fang, Sirine's Grace and Bite of the Werebear). How many 2nd-level or above spell slots do you see yourself spending to get enough Persists off to run your build as you intend? It's not like you can stockpile this spell either. You don't even have 35 spell slots.

No score change.

---

Where does it say that your rage ends after you shapeshift back to maeluth?

In Alternate Form description.

—The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form.
—The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

Badger's rage is an extraordinary special attack. Trogdrak just doesn't have it in his maeluth form.

You know what, you make a convincing argument here. You still can't use spellcasting resources while raging, but you can at least leave Rage when you want. Given your ridiculous stats, the penalties for being fatigued don't even matter, if you even have to deal with Fatigue. I'll give you points for this. (+0.25 points).

[H_H_F_F]

I just had a half-formed thought for a round theme: Undead+something -necropolitan. Feels like it could be broad enough to offer a lot of options, but still offers a strong theme with heavy build investment that will ensure unique entries and strong focus on the components.

Thoughts?

[loky1109]

I just had a half-formed thought for a round theme: Undead+something -necropolitan. Feels like it could be broad enough to offer a lot of options, but still offers a strong theme with heavy build investment that will ensure unique entries and strong focus on the components.

Thoughts?

Junkyard Wars XXXIII: LotD + AF - Necropolitan

Although it might actually be interesting.

[H_H_F_F]

Junkyard Wars XXXIII: LotD + AF - Necropolitan

Although it might actually be interesting.

Right. Forgot about that. Probably where the idea came from, somewhere in the back of my mind.

[pabelfly]

Okay, this is the last back-and-forth with Trogdrak. If we can't work it out in three back-and-forths, we're not going to work it out. I've got one more critique to start going through, so thank you for your patience .

If I'm incorrect, how do you explain that the example creature of human + werebear based off a Brown Bear having a total of 7HD when a normal Brown Bear has 6HD? It's written that it has 7HD, the maths comes out as it having 7HD. If my assertation is incorrect, where does this extra HD come from from the example monster?

I already explained that:

The werebear presented here is a 1st-level human warrior and natural lycanthrope, using the following base ability scores: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8.

Example monster DOESN'T have 7 HD. it has 6 HD and 1 class level.

---

Okay, I think you're right. I hate how badly-worded this template is, but I think you've managed to interpret it correctly. Removed the stat penalty from elegance on Large critique. (+0.5 points)

And that also fits with the spell defining specific limbs as primary and secondary. And secondary natural weapons take a -5 unless otherwise specified.

Do you ignore spell direct wording?

The creature gains four claw attacks, each using its base attack bonus + its Str modifier for attack rolls. Each claw deals 1d4 points of damage + the subject’s Str modifier

the spell sees fit to specify primary and secondary limbs here.

But spell says nothing about primary and secondary natural weapons.

---

The build sees fit to differentiate between primary and secondary limbs for creatures that have arms and those that don't. P311 defines what natural weapons are, states that secondary natural wepaons get a -5 penalty, and you're using your limbs as natural weapons. I'm happy with my interpretation on this. No point change.

You are right about bite being 25 instead of 22. My mistake. Your bite attack is 17 damage per hit, and with an increase in accuracy of 0.15, that's a difference in damage of 2.55 damage per round.

We are still talking about size.

---

Now that we agree that you're large, let's do the damage calcs for level 20 one last time:

Let's assume you have all your spells up, and you have stats of 42/14/38/12/16/28
Let’s assume you have Rage going and have +4 to STR (for a total of 46 STR)
Let’s assume our opponent has 36 AC and 15 DR. Let's assume you bypass that DR.
Let's assume you get four attacks each round with Girallon's Blessing. You don’t get extra attacks from high BAB due to Girallon’s Blessing.
Let’s assume you’re Large.
I'm not bothered to do calcs for Power Attack 5; it's going to be less damage than Power Attack 0 anyway.

Attack Routine - Claw/Claw/Claw (secondary)/Claw (secondary)/Bite

Accuracy:
10 BAB + 18 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
31 accuracy (0.8) (main claw)
28 accuracy (0.65) (bite)
26 accuracy (0.55) (secondary claw)

Damage
1d4 Claw (Girallon's Blessing) + 18 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
23.5

2d8 Bite (Bite of Werebear) + 9 STR + 3 Greater Magic Fang
21 damage per hit

Damage output:
23.5 x 0.8 x 2 (Primary Claws) + 23.5 x 0.55 x 2 (Secondary Claws) + 21 x 0.65 (Bite) = 77.1 Damage

I'm going to give this another (+0.25 points) Now that we're using better stats and can agree you are large, this does look better. I'd still like to see damage at around 100 per round though. Especially when we're assuming that you'll beat DR solely based on the idea that you have some ways to bypass some DR types when this won't always be true for all DR types or for general, untyped DR.

Aspect of the Wolf gives the creature a total of 13 strength, or +1 ability modifier. You add +18 ability modifier from your persisted spells for a total of 19 modifier, not 31.

What? I gave you ability scores, not modifiers. Str 31 means +10 modifier.

---

Your Level 3 weasel has 2 BAB, how does it get your BAB?

Familiar uses master's BAB (look at PHB,, p. 52). Not part BAB from class that gain familiar. Total master's BAB.

Your weasel has three levels of 1/2 d8 HP. Even with +10 CON modifier from buffs and +2 CON from Aspect of the Wolf, that's... 8.5 (3 levels of Weasel) + 12 x 3, or 45 HP. It's going to take one or two hits before it dies.

Also PHB, p. 53. Familiat has one-half of master's total hit points.

---

It's tiny with terrible reach.

It isn't tiny. Wolves aren't tiny, wolves are medium, Aspect of the Wolf transform into wolf form.

---

Okay, thanks for clearing this up. I can admit I was in the wrong here - the familiar does look better than before. Medium is a nice size, your HP, BAB and stats are much better, and so forth.

Still, I see significant problems here. You've got the familiar that's stuck by your side to get all of your buffs, so you can't use it for scouting, reconnaissance, flanking enemies. You're both limited to attacking enemies within your rage. And the moment you or your familiar are forced apart by even five feet, your familiar has lost all of your buffs for the entire day. And it's not as if there aren't ways to do this.

There's also the fact that I want to see what sort of damage your character would be doing without going to the trouble of actually doing the maths for every single level for levels 1 to 20, and using a class feature you get at level 19 doesn't assist with that extrapolation.

No score change.

The text says the talisman gives you one turn attempt for a second level spell slot. You need at least 7 to use DMM Persist, and your level 20 spell selection says you're going to persist five spells (Master Air, Friendly Fire, Superior Magic Fang, Sirine's Grace and Bite of the Werebear). How many 2nd-level or above spell slots do you see yourself spending to get enough Persists off to run your build as you intend? It's not like you can stockpile this spell either. You don't even have 35 spell slots.

Actually I have enough slots.
I have 12 turn attempts, 5 spell slots are needed for casting spells, I need 23 (DMM)+5 (spells)=28 slots.
I have: 26 slots of 2nd+ level without any items (with +4 item I'd have enough spell slots). I have Druid Grove with up to 4 spell levels (exactly two 2nd level spells), I have Spellstaff, I have Attune Gem feat. Or I could not persist for example Master Air.[/QUOTE]

So, to back up:
My original critique was that Plant Defiance can't fuel metamagic,
You've responded with: "oh, I have bone talismans".
After working that out (thank you), we're now at a point where we can persist our spells, which is great, but now we're a caster without any spells that we can cast as support during the day, after doing our morning buff routine.

If we had started at this point, I'd still taking off points from your build since you don't have access to your spells, or we can persist less spells than your build originally intended. No score change.

[pabelfly]

I just had a half-formed thought for a round theme: Undead+something -necropolitan. Feels like it could be broad enough to offer a lot of options, but still offers a strong theme with heavy build investment that will ensure unique entries and strong focus on the components.

Thoughts?

Not really familiar with undead or necropolitan. I'll just leave this to ponder upon in the back of my mind, but it could be interesting. I have a bunch of half-formed contest ideas like this, which are just waiting for the other half to come to me.

So, boring admin stuff: I just need to respond to one last critique for this contest. Hopefully we'll get the next round going within a week and hopefully sooner than that.

Junkyard Wars XLII will be Smite + Mounted Combat - Paladin. Mentioned this before, will mention it again for those that don't remember since it's been a while. I'll also be adding procedures for contestants judging various entrants if we don't have judges volunteering. This has been discussed before, there were some good ideas presented that have worked in the past. I think this is the best way to deal with the issue of not being able to find someone that's willing to step into the role of judge if it happens again.

After that, I'll be doing another poll with some contest ideas. Hopefully with a bit of experience from the last poll, I have more interesting contest ideas for you to pick from. I'm open to adding other people's ideas to the poll too.

[pabelfly]

Divine Power isn't mentioned in the spell list because Ordained Champion lets me spontaneously cast it, and the spell list only shows spells prepared.

Thanks for correcting me on this, it's much appreciated. This had no bearing on your score.

]I'm also a bit disappointed in the penalty for skills: Trox can always cast Guidance of the Avatar or Divine Insight if a skill needs to be rolled... but also, who's expecting a cleric to derive his out-of-combat utility from skills? Clerics have access to a giant toolbox ranging from Plane Shift to Remove Curse to Summon Monster, which they can prepare any day it's needed: do they really need strong skill investment to reliably contribute out of combat? Note that unlike most clerics, we could even fill our slots with utility exclusively, and use our abilities that convert spell slots into buffs to get through combat encounters: even if we don't have higher-level spells, we're a lot more likely to have the right low-level one prepared!

I can understand your argument here, but I've got two points in response.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure I took the time to examine everyone's skill points or lack thereof. If having high skill points is an unreasonable request of a caster, it's an unreasonable request I'm making of all casters, regardless of the spell list they pull from.

Lastly, spells that boost skill checks are great when you have them prepared and can use them, you'll have my full agreement there. However, high skill points are always great.

No score change.

[pabelfly]

I would like to ask why my originality score seems to depend solely on class and race, and not on my tactics (toggling rage on and off multiple times a turn is original, surely?) or my feats (some of which are quite uncommon). Action points are an underused mechanic that I was really happy about using, but it seems like they show up nowhere in your score.

Furthermore, I strongly dispute your entire reading of a geomancer's rage ability.

The literal text of the ability is:

You can rage similar to a wolverine. (If you take damage, you rage as a 1st-level barbarian – see Barbarian entry, page 25 of the Player's Handbook – or gain +1 effective level of any class you have that grants rage as a class feature, but only for determining the benefits of rage.)

Consider the context in which it appears: the geomancer's drift abilities, which are written in a very particular way.

One of the abilities says 'you become as graceful as a cat' and then says it gives +4 balance: should we ignore that line because actual cats get +8 balance? If 'your eyes become as sharp as an eagle's' should we really be getting a conditional +4 instead of an unconditional +8 to spot? If you can 'pounce like a leopard', does that ability only work on the first turn of combat, unlike a leopard's? If your sense's 'become as sharp as a bat', do you get 20 or 30 feet of blindsense?

My point being: when drift abilities refer to animals, this is obviously flavor, not mechanics. Keeping the context in mind, if this ability says 'you can rage similar to a wolverine' (not even 'as a wolverine', similar to one), and immediately after says 'you rage as a 1st-level barbarian', the mechanical effect of that ability derives fully from a barbarian's rage, including the ability to end it prematurely: my final trick doesn't work much different from Grakk's. Mark my elegance down for an reliance on a slightly ambiguous rule if you must, but a 0 in UoSI is excessive.

Let's redo your Use of Secret Ingredient score. I didn't see enough rules regarding the specific Rage mechanics for Geomancer, tried my best to work it out, but I can't argue that I wasn't overzealous. I still have concerns, but let's do this again.

There are no specific mechanics regarding how to Rage properly for a Geomancer. While a Wolverine is referenced in the Geomancer prestige class, that doesn't mean anything besides flavour text, as you pointed out. Fair critique on your part.
However, we are told we Rage as a first-level Barbarian, and Barbarians can only rage once per encounter. Now, does Geomancer negate the Rage rules of Barbarian? I'd be leaning on saying it doesn't: taking damage as Geomancer triggers Rage as a first-level Barbarian, you dismiss it when it's your next turn and try to trigger it again, but the rules for Barbarian Rage say you only get to Rage once per encounter. But, again, Geomancer isn't written very well for this particular ability, and I wouldn't be surprised if someone else came up with a completely different interpretation to my first or my second attempt at parsing this, and I wouldn't even say they were wrong if they did. I don't think you can turn off Rage when it's not your turn though: we usually have specific rules when we can act out of turn order - but that seems like a minor issue.

So let's call this a +0.5 points. Even with my fairly conservative interpretation of Geomancer Rage, you still start off the first round after attacking with boosts to your two most important saves and HP, which are some very nice buffs. (+0.5 points) (Use of Secret Ingredients is now (4 / 5)

I’ve also recognized how you repeatedly turn Rage on and off in your build design in Originality. While I don’t think this actually works, Originality is only where I ask if you’re doing interesting or unusual stuff, and I think this qualifies. (+1 point)

Lastly, Action Points rules: This is honestly a wash. I should have written this, but I’ll write what I should have here: Action points feats are fairly uncommon (i'd give points in Originality if I were giving points), but they’re also fairly easy to cheese, as you’ve found out (I'd take the same amount of points away).

I’m going to call this a wash. (+/- 0 points)

[Inevitability]

No further disputes.

[pabelfly]

Final results:

Name	Alignment/Race	Class Levels	Chef	Total	Place
Trox, Shaped By War	NG/Saint Frostblood Half-Orc	Barbarian 1 / Cleric of Heironeous 3 / Ordained Champion 4 / Flux Adept 10	Inevitability	16.5	First
Grakk "Halfdead"	CE / Frostblood Orc	Unholy Fury Barbarian 1 / Dread Necromancer 14 / Orc Warlord 5	Loky1109	16.25	Second
Sana Bogle	CG / Human	Paragon 1 / Sha'ir 1 / Human Paragon +2 / Geomancer 7 / Blood Magus 1 / Dread Witch 5 / Blood Magus +1 / Geomancer +2	Inevitability	14.5	Third
Ragnor Kolbjorn	TN/Maenad	Fighter 6 / Berserk 4 / Warmind 10	Laughing Dog	14	Fourth (Tie)
Trogdrak of the Badgers	TN/Ferral Natural Weredire Badger Lesser Maeluth	Spirit Shaman 6 / Death Delver 1 / Holt Warden 2 / Mystic Wanderer 3	Loky1109	14	Fourth (Tie)
Wander, Shifter Psychic Rogue	TN / Shifter (Razorclaw)	Cleric 1 / Psychic Rogue 16 / Weretouched Master 3	PoeticallyPsycho	13.5	Sixth (Tie)
Batsu, the Bat-man	LN / Anthropromorphic Bat	Monk 2 / Druid 17 / Spelldancer 1	Gruftzwerg	13.5	Sixth (Tie)

Thank you everyone for entering, and thank you again for your patience while I was judging.

Now that the contest is over, any feedback or suggestions on what I can do better would be greatly appreciated. Now, I'm going to start writing up the next Junkyard Contest, which should hopefully be up in less than a day.

[Inevitability]

Well, I'm sure glad I went for that dispute on Sana... last to third is one heck of a leap.

I have no real comments on the judging process: I would penalize or boost some different things (I notably dislike the 'class switching' elegance penalty) but I honestly think you dealt with the unexpected burden really well. Some kind of incentive to judges might be good for future rounds, or maybe trying to recruit them before the reveal?

[pabelfly]

I have no real comments on the judging process: I would penalize or boost some different things (I notably dislike the 'class switching' elegance penalty) but I honestly think you dealt with the unexpected burden really well. Some kind of incentive to judges might be good for future rounds, or maybe trying to recruit them before the reveal?

I'm open to offering incentives, but I'm not sure what I can offer besides selecting the next contest ingredients (as long as it meets the "A + B - C" format).

[loky1109]

Thank you for your work, pabelfly!
But I should say I'm not very happy about your judging of Trogdrak.
It looks like you didn't read entry and my disputes carefully enough.

Yes, part about humanoid HD is slightly unclear, but I had to send you the same quote from MM twice, you didn't notice it first time apparently.
Also about my familiar.

You've got the familiar that's stuck by your side to get all of your buffs, so you can't use it for scouting, reconnaissance, flanking enemies.

It was directly in my entry in "Some Spell Usage" spoiler:

2) Acorn of Far Travel + wearable bonsai oak + familiar's Share Spells = my selfbuffs all day long working for my familiar without needing to be close to me.

It’s a little unpleasant to see that your entry hasn’t been thoroughly examined by the judge. I understand, judging is hard, I know how it could be, and I don't blame you, just turn your attention to this.