Wizards favoring VTT over Physical?

[Psyren]

4e is an example to the contrary among a great many players (although 4e surely had its share of fans and devotees).

4e's design woes largely came from chasing MMOs, not VTTs. And 4e design isn't relevant to either 5e or 1DD in any case.

Likewise. I am on roll20, it has been a long slow crawl up hill as their capability increases. I play in A foundry game; PhoenixPhyre has adopted and crafted features that make it a superb play experience, but it helps that our group has found its small group dynamics sweet spot also. Played a game with Max Wilson on owlbear rodeo: it works, and was comparatively easy to use the first time out.

Yeah - I've seen great functionality on both roll20 and Foundry, but the learning curve for those things is steep, especially for the average established DM I'd say.

[Sigreid]

Really they have 2 things going at the same time. First, have a system that has enough choice and rewards system mastery enough to keep people engaged without being so fiddly that they get in the way of playing the game. Second is building a VTT that people will pick over the existing VTTs on the market. The second part is made more difficult both by being late to the game and that other VTTs offer their customer base multiple game options. On Fantasy Grounds, for example, there are dozens of other games I can play just to change things up for a while.

For specifically the VTT market I think they're in the position of the phone companies in the 90s. They had the chance to be first to market with high speed internet but decided to stick with their land line model and basically surrendered that market to others.

[Melil12]

I think this is just the same old “How does your group play?” Debate.
The response is the game still caters to everyone.

Freeform vs Map
New vs Old
Roll play vs Roleplay
Digital vs Paper

Point is they wonÂ’t stop selling/making paper books and sheets. They will just also provide you a choice of a digital version. You can still play CoS or OOTA, and even custom versions as you see fit.

[Melil12]

For specifically the VTT market I think they're in the position of the phone companies in the 90s. They had the chance to be first to market with high speed internet but decided to stick with their land line model and basically surrendered that market to others.

I think this is what is causing a lot of the issues today.

They realized people are making money off their product using this new virtual market. And now they are trying to catch and take over this market.

And they want to leverage their games OGL ect to do so.

[Sorinth]

I can play online with a group of people, and never leave my house. Everything is provided for me and I'm in arguably the environment I'm most comfortable in.
Or, I can play in person, with the exact same group of people, I have to get in my car, drive over, I have to lug a bunch of minis...

Worth pointing out that physical board games are still a thriving business. Virtually every board game could be a video game and most popular games are ported (In both directions). Even if there's a focus on digital it won't put an end to in person gaming in any way.

[Psyren]

I think this is just the same old “How does your group play?” Debate.
The response is the game still caters to everyone.

Freeform vs Map
New vs Old
Roll play vs Roleplay
Digital vs Paper

Point is they wonÂ’t stop selling/making paper books and sheets. They will just also provide you a choice of a digital version. You can still play CoS or OOTA, and even custom versions as you see fit.

Agreed.

Really they have 2 things going at the same time. First, have a system that has enough choice and rewards system mastery enough to keep people engaged without being so fiddly that they get in the way of playing the game. Second is building a VTT that people will pick over the existing VTTs on the market. The second part is made more difficult both by being late to the game and that other VTTs offer their customer base multiple game options. On Fantasy Grounds, for example, there are dozens of other games I can play just to change things up for a while.

For specifically the VTT market I think they're in the position of the phone companies in the 90s. They had the chance to be first to market with high speed internet but decided to stick with their land line model and basically surrendered that market to others.

They could also be the iPhone - closed ecosystem that came to market well after Blackberry and Palm Pilot, but the greater ease of use and reliability for less savvy users let to them ultimately dominating. It largely depends on whether they're able to deliver on that superior experience or not.

Worth pointing out that physical board games are still a thriving business. Virtually every board game could be a video game and most popular games are ported (In both directions). Even if there's a focus on digital it won't put an end to in person gaming in any way.

Yep. And for them to try abandoning physical D&D entirely would not at all be worth all the backlash they'd receive. They'd also be giving up on all the feel-good stories that come with physical D&D - the positive publicity that results when it gets played in places with limited connectivity to the wider internet, like military bases, retirement homes, prisons, mental or children's hospitals etc.

[Tawmis]

Based on (what seem to me)
(snip)

I think what it is - they realize there's a HUGE market for VTT/remote play. And now probably would like to get into that market.

Reason being, all of my games were in person. Pandemic hit. They all became remote and we had to adapt.

Now my games, in person I'd use a map just because people brought figures and stuff, if it was a maze or cave.

When we went remote, it wasn't too different. Pretty much theater of mind, unless it was a cave or maze. Then I'd use Roll20.

Now, two of my players now live out of state, and the drive for another is long.

So I would probably continue to play remotely because it's easier. People can watch their kids from home if they have to (and not miss a session), dice rolling is so much quicker (D&D Beyond + Beyond20 is a blessing!), Discord is free and what we use to talk/chat.

Now, there's always been VTTs and such... but the pandemic I think may it clear that playing remote is really easy.

And WotC couldn't really capitalize if you played at work, home, or some gaming store.

They can however, make money on VTTs.

I think they will target both - physical and VTT - because people (like me) love physical copies. But now they have a plan to get their money out of the VTT side of things.

[Kane0]

Have you tried Solasta? It's SRD 5.1-based rather than D&D 5e exactly, but I think it might help scratch that itch until BG3 drops.

Yeah ive got a copy. Its faithful, but I think id prefer realtime-with-pause or at least a little automation to the turns to make combat go by a little faster.

[langal]

Currently, if someone goes off script on LMoP, it's not problem, I can draw a quick map and make an encounter or something on the fly. In a VTT, I have to say, "hey, sorry, it's off script so we don't have a nice map", and then I have to make some much lower quality thing.



I don't understand. You believe that nothing done for VTT purposes will have a negative effect?

It's same thing at a table. You have to draw a map if you want a map. You can download one really quick if you want nice looking trees, etc. Actually a lot quicker than a table.. You are imposing restrictions on a VTT that also apply to a table. Good DMs have to improvise no matter what.

[langal]

Currently, if someone goes off script on LMoP, it's not problem, I can draw a quick map and make an encounter or something on the fly. In a VTT, I have to say, "hey, sorry, it's off script so we don't have a nice map", and then I have to make some much lower quality thing.



I don't understand. You believe that nothing done for VTT purposes will have a negative effect?

Hmm. Let me take a step back, and go through point by point.

"No difference between could and will" is explicitly the opposite of what I said. I do see a difference. What you are saying is that the VTT shift could have negative effects for many reasons, but none of these will manifest and therefore the shift will have no negative effects.

I am disagreeing with that. I agree that many changes could have negative effects. I think it is therefore likely that some of these will manifest. I think your position shows far too much faith in WoTC and in the power of VTTs generally.

For example, no VTT has solved the issue of it being easy to draw out a map. No amount of premade maps fixes this issue. This means VTT is less suited for improvisational play.

This may or may not encourage more linear modules. I find the audience one is writing for affects one's writing. Writing for a VTT audience which is more interested in pre made and less interested in improvisational content (because that's what VTT is best at) will therefore encourage modules that favor pre made to improvisational content.

I think this is bad for the game.

What VTT are you using that is so difficult to draw maps on?

If you are a great pen and paper artist and don't like Photoshop, etc., you can use yet phone to scan your improvised map and upload it to a VTT in a minute or two.

[Atranen]

It's same thing at a table. You have to draw a map if you want a map. You can download one really quick if you want nice looking trees, etc. Actually a lot quicker than a table.. You are imposing restrictions on a VTT that also apply to a table. Good DMs have to improvise no matter what.

What VTT are you using that is so difficult to draw maps on?

If you are a great pen and paper artist and don't like Photoshop, etc., you can use yet phone to scan your improvised map and upload it to a VTT in a minute or two.

I've used Roll20. I'm much faster at drawing by hand than point and click. I can use pre-made maps, but as I mentioned, these are often worse/don't have what I want. I haven't tried the photo thing. My flip map is too big for the desk I do online games from. So I could go to the other room, draw it out, take a picture, upload, and then go. It's still not as good.

[Yakmala]

Personally, I think this is going to backfire. Physical, in person D&D is how the hobby grows.

I've been playing since the "white box" days and almost every player I've met was introduced to the hobby by being invited to a table by a friend, family member, or someone at a game store or convention. In every case it was "You don't need anything! Just sit down and play. We'll lend you some dice and help you make a character." But now, by going virtual, that spontaneity is gone. You have to seek out the VTT, maybe sign up first. And, of course, there's the subscription. Newbies aren't going to want to jump through that many hoops.

And think of all the onboarding scenarios that vanish when you go virtual.

1: Go to a friend or family members house and see them playing. Gone.
2: Happen upon your school or college club playing and are invited to pull up a chair. Gone.
3: See the game being played weekly at your local game or hobby store and get interested and then invited. Gone.
4: Go to a convention to play board or card games and come upon a table with an extra seat. Gone.

And what motivation do the game and hobby stores have to push your game if they are no longer making money selling physical copies? There go a bunch of dedicated evangelists. Chances are, they'll be pitching a competing product.

WotC is going to spend a ton of money on this, and they are going to fail to meet their return on investment expectations and in few years, those responsible will get sacked and we'll get 7e in physical form again with a "The D&D you love and grew up with is back!" marketing pitch.

[Tawmis]

Personally, I think this is going to backfire. Physical, in person D&D is how the hobby grows.
I've been playing since the "white box" days and almost every player I've met was introduced to the hobby by being invited to a table by a friend, family member, or someone at a game store or convention. In every case it was "You don't need anything! Just sit down and play. We'll lend you some dice and help you make a character." But now, by going virtual, that spontaneity is gone. You have to seek out the VTT, maybe sign up first. And, of course, there's the subscription. Newbies aren't going to want to jump through that many hoops.

Before my game had to go virtual, I would have agreed.
But now that it has gone virtual - it's so convenient. No need for everyone to rush somewhere after work... or leave somewhere, after the game is over.
Play from the comfort of home. Game over? Turn off the computer and you're done. No need to drive late at night. No need to burn gas.
I don't use VTT, myself (except in the rare cave or maze) - it's all theater of the mind.
But tools like Beyond20 were game changers.
They know your characters inside and out - you rolled a 1 as a halfling? Don't worry - Beyond20 knows, and re-rolls that 1.
You roll an attack and it rolls the damage too at the same time.
No more dice falling off the table, or landing against a box - is it a Natural 20 or a 6? Can't tell. Stuck against the box.

But if you think that's going to ruin it...

People will still get invited. It will just be to a virtual game (whether a VTT or theater of the mind).

1: Go to a friend or family members house and see them playing. Gone.

True. But also cures the fact that if your player has moved out of state, you can still play and hang out with that friend(s).

2: Happen upon your school or college club playing and are invited to pull up a chair. Gone.

I think schools that do this will continue to do this. Because you're already there in person.

3: See the game being played weekly at your local game or hobby store and get interested and then invited. Gone.

I might have the worse luck... but not once... in my eons of playing, have I been invited to a game at a hobby store. Most games already seem to be going and full. Every. Time.
Only time it didn't - was at a brewery and a friend invited me - and I had to sign up through Reddit.

4: Go to a convention to play board or card games and come upon a table with an extra seat. Gone.

Conventions, should people want to go, gaming will always be there too.
VTTs won't change that. Just like college/school. If there's a physical presence people will still play.

[KorvinStarmast]

4e's design woes largely came from chasing MMOs, not VTTs.

Aye.

4e design isn't relevant to either 5e or 1DD in any case.

Writ large, I suppose so, but advantage (see Avenger in 4e) and using HD to heal certainly crossed over from 4 to 5.

Yeah - I've seen great functionality on both roll20 and Foundry, but the learning curve for those things is steep, especially for the average established DM I'd say.

This long time DM agrees whole heartedly. My brother likewise will agree, heck, he called me this weekend trying to customize an NPC sheet for our upcoming event, and I had to talk him through it.

I think what it is - they realize there's a HUGE market for VTT/remote play. And now probably would like to get into that market.

I agree, if there's a place to grow why not grow into it?

Now, two of my players now live out of state, and the drive for another is long.

I would not be in the hobby, nor discussing this with you on this board, were it not for roll20 and 5e, which my brother invited me to play. On roll20. First group had people in: Virginia, Texas, California, Michigan, Washington(State), Chicago, Queens (NYC).

Discord is free and what we use to talk/chat.

And one can post a few pictures if necessary.

I think they will target both - physical and VTT - because people (like me) love physical copies. But now they have a plan to get their money out of the VTT side of things.

Indeed. "Why can't we have both" is a valid approach.

Good DMs have to improvise no matter what.

It has ever been thus.

True. But also cures the fact that if your player has moved out of state, you can still play and hang out with that friend(s).

See above. But VTT also allows your wife/SO to wander in and demand your attention (the dog ran off, go get him!) which takes you out of the game. But it also lets me get up and get a fresh cocktail without disrupting play by getting up from the table.

[Sigreid]

Aye. Writ large, I suppose so, but advantage (see Avenger in 4e) and using HD to heal certainly crossed over from 4 to 5.
This long time DM agrees whole heartedly. My brother likewise will agree, heck, he called me this weekend trying to customize an NPC sheet for our upcoming event, and I had to talk him through it.
I agree, if there's a place to grow why not grow into it?
I would not be in the hobby, nor discussing this with you on this board, were it not for roll20 and 5e, which my brother invited me to play. On roll20. First group had people in: Virginia, Texas, California, Michigan, Washington(State), Chicago, Queens (NYC).

And one can post a few pictures if necessary.
Indeed. "Why can't we have both" is a valid approach.
It has ever been thus.
See above. But VTT also allows your wife/SO to wander in and demand your attention (the dog ran off, go get him!) which takes you out of the game. But it also lets me get up and get a fresh cocktail without disrupting play by getting up from the table.

The main thing that is necessary to make a rules set VTT friendly is just making sure that all the math is compatible and easily extract able. IMO, this is also beneficial for printed rules. Really, in most cases; formatting things in a way that is easy to translate to a digital environment often makes things easier for people to read and understand as well.

[Trafalgar]

The only real roleplaying is LARP in full costume on a real location. Everything else is a compromise.

[Arkhios]

...I must be tired or over-caffeinated, but I've been snickering to myself over the mental picture of a Wizard whose spellbook is a VTT.

[KorvinStarmast]

The only real roleplaying is LARP in full costume on a real location. Everything else is a compromise.

Only true roleplayers put raisins in their porridge.

[langal]

As far as Wizards goes? No they are.not favoring VTT over physical. They are still printing books, selling tiles, cards, dice, paint, etc.

[Sigreid]

OK, been reading more about Chat Gpt and such and while I don't think I want an AI DM anytime soon, but if they integrated into their VTT where I could type in "create a 5e module centered on a goblin tribe that is threatening the trade route between Waterdeep and Baulder's Gate for a party of 4 7th level adventurers", I'd be tempted.

[Melil12]

OK, been reading more about Chat Gpt and such and while I don't think I want an AI DM anytime soon, but if they integrated into their VTT where I could type in "create a 5e module centered on a goblin tribe that is threatening the trade route between Waterdeep and Baulder's Gate for a party of 4 7th level adventurers", I'd be tempted.

I think that’s a bit of a tall order lol

I would suspect that it would just come with some pre loaded adventures with triggers for events.
You have your token and move it into the tavern. A text box pops up and says while you’re drinking someone comes in and ask for adventurers. It says make X roll ect based on rolls another event happens ect.

If you are familiar with MUDs … they are text based games before we had MMOs and VTTs

[Sigreid]

I think that’s a bit of a tall order lol

I would suspect that it would just come with some pre loaded adventures with triggers for events.
You have your token and move it into the tavern. A text box pops up and says while you’re drinking someone comes in and ask for adventurers. It says make X roll ect based on rolls another event happens ect.

From some of the stuff I've been reading, it's not that far fetched. And what I am thinking is basic module creation on demand that I could work with as a DM. Not the AI running the game.

[Zuras]

From some of the stuff I've been reading, it's not that far fetched. And what I am thinking is basic module creation on demand that I could work with as a DM. Not the AI running the game.

An AI fantasy name generator? A random NPC generator for when I need a backstory for an innkeeper that the players inexplicably fixated on? All of that sounds amazing and I would be willing to pay somebody (though maybe not Hasbro at this point) good money to have a ChatGpt-like equivalent of a d100 table to procedurally generate content.

[Sigreid]

An AI fantasy name generator? A random NPC generator for when I need a backstory for an innkeeper that the players inexplicably fixated on? All of that sounds amazing and I would be willing to pay somebody (though maybe not Hasbro at this point) good money to have a ChatGpt-like equivalent of a d100 table to procedurally generate content.

From what I've been reading, it seems it should with a little work be able to generate encounters, treasure, maps with terrain, traps etc. So yes, but more. Like having the old tsr modules generated on demand for you to read through and then run.

[Atranen]

An AI fantasy name generator? A random NPC generator for when I need a backstory for an innkeeper that the players inexplicably fixated on? All of that sounds amazing and I would be willing to pay somebody (though maybe not Hasbro at this point) good money to have a ChatGpt-like equivalent of a d100 table to procedurally generate content.

It's pretty straightforward to do this now; give it a random table, and then tell it to give you some. You just need to provide the table. So if someone makes a version that just has tables, like donjon but accessed via text commands, that's very doable.

[Sorinth]

There's for sure a place for AI in a well done VTT, being able to generate a random "dungeon" based on a few input parameters and not just having the things like traps, secret doors, etc... but having it show up in the VTT as a nice polished/professional looking map would be a big draw.

[Envyus]

I would love for the DMGs random dungeon generator to be implemented into the VTT.

[tokek]

There's for sure a place for AI in a well done VTT, being able to generate a random "dungeon" based on a few input parameters and not just having the things like traps, secret doors, etc... but having it show up in the VTT as a nice polished/professional looking map would be a big draw.

I strongly agree. Replacing random encounters with an AI that could generate a much more holistic random situation would be an awesome use of AI.

Generate locations, challenges, monsters, personalities that all mesh together in interesting ways. As a DM I would pay a bit of money for that tool

[KorvinStarmast]

I would love for the DMGs random dungeon generator to be implemented into the VTT.

Heh, that could make for some interesting solo play.

[Sigreid]

Heh, that could make for some interesting solo play.

Solo play nothing, when I brought up AI dungeon creation it was just so I could bypass a bunch of DM prep time. rofl