The Boy Scout - Building my PC to be another PC's sidekick

[tieren]

Concept:

I was researching the theory craft threads about making a character with all of the skill proficiencies (and at least half with expertise). There are a couple of ways of doing it with wild multiclassing and sub optimal feat choices, but you end up with a character that's not particularly useful on their own. A single class rogue with 20 Dex will be better at their skills, as will a 20 Int wizard or 20 Wis cleric, etc... because the multiclassing requires splitting the ability scores so much.

So then it occurred to me, what would this character be good for? I believe they would be an amazing assistant. In combat they wouldn't be able to keep up at all, so they would need other things to do, such as the Help action, using items (caltrops, ball bearings, barring doors, etc...). That got me thinking to be good at that he would need to carry around a lot of stuff most PC's don't worry about, which lead me to his shtick being the guy who is always prepared for anything and has the clutch supplies, tools, equipment, components, etc... anyone might need at any time, including filling in to use his vast skill set in any way the heroes may require. The Boy Scout.

Build So Far:

Mastermind Rogue/ Knowledge Cleric/ Lore Bard/ Monster Slayer Ranger
12/2/3/3

The mastermind rogue can help as a bonus action, and at range. Rogue 11 gives Reliable Talent so the minimum I will ever roll on a skill check is 10. The knowledge cleric channel divinity will extend my proficiency to all tools, lore bard gives skills and expertise, and Ranger gives another skill and Monster Slayer Hunter Senses would be cool info to relay to my hero (like a combat golf caddy) especially in conjunction with Mastermind's insightful manipulator.

The Scout Rogue and Fey Wanderer ranger are probably more optimized giving additional skills, but when I think about how I intend to use the character I think mastermind and monster slayer fit better.

For race, I am a bit torn, variant human with Skill Expert feat is probably the smartest choice, giving me a point buy spread of 12/14/10,14,14,14 [there aren't any Con skills anyway] but two skills and an expertise. Half Elf would probably also be a strong contender.

Rogues get an extra ASI at 10 so I would still have 4 to work with and could still take Skilled, Prodigy, Observant, and Lucky.

Gear wise I would need at least one bag of holding for all the stuff I'd need to always be prepared with. I also really, really want the Robe of Useful items on this guy (which I have never seriously considered before). I can't really see him using a weapon much, but I could have him use a dagger if he needs to defend himself or a whip if he gets the chance to sneak attack an enemy from 10' away (and his hero doesn't need some other type of assistance).

Discussion:

So my objective is to make a character who is good at everything but does everything he can to avoid the spotlight so the "being good at everything" doesn't tick off the rest of the party. He would be a support character in the truest sense of the term, guidance, bardic inspiration, Help as action and bonus action, some healing word, cutting words, etc... But generally not being a combatant himself.

What do you think? Would your hero like a sidekick? [not as now defined in the rules but as RP] If I were in your party would you be glad to have someone dedicated to supporting the party members or annoyed I wasn't killing things myself?

[animorte]

You know what might be a decent place to look? I would start with this 5e Sidekicks. I happen to love the sidekicks concept as a foundation. (This was modeled directly after the 3.5e generic classes.)

More specifically to accomplish what you seem to desire, I would point you to the Expert which is found at the very bottom of the Sidekicks page.

I was in cub/boy scouts for a total of 13 years so I can definitely see where your inspiration comes from in all the multi-classing. The thing I remember most was learning a lot of basic survival skills. Next to that, there is a lot of availability around many various skills. This includes crafts, archery, construction, radiology, even cooking and more.

What you're going for is covered fairly well by the Expert. You can help as a bonus action from level one, and most of everything you do provides some kind of assistance to an ally while being pretty decent at staying alive yourself. It doesn't get spells though, so if that's important to you, then certainly look elsewhere.

[tieren]

You know what might be a decent place to look? I would start with this 5e Sidekicks link. I happen to love the sidekicks concept as a foundation. (This was modeled directly after the 3.5e generic classes.)

Yes, this made researching the idea I am looking for difficult since it became a RAW thing. I like the idea of the sidekick mechanic but I feel like they are intended to be played as a companion to your own PC and not necessarily a PC in and of themselves.

I am more looking to build the ultimate skill monkey, but then instead of playing as a know it all hero, which seems kind of obnoxious, I want to build a PC who does not see themselves as a hero and is an expert follower. The semantics of this make discussion difficult since wanting to be an expert sidekick seems obvious when there is a literal expert sidekick mechanic. However, I want more depth and crunch than the "sidekick" characters possess.

[J-H]

Why not just go with a rogue and pick up some skill feats?
A Half-Elf Mastermind with Skilled, Skill Expert, and Prodigy has proficiency in all but 5 skills, and Expertise in 5 skills, by level 10. If you're not the star, you can probably get by without Animal Handling, Persuasion, and a couple of others.
You still have full sneak attack progression and can start with a 16 DEX.

Better to build something that comes online early and is still useful, instead of something that's cruddy and still not finished until level 20.

Another option might be an Artificer...fewer skills but infusions are a nice way to boost others.

[animorte]

However, I want more depth and crunch than the "sidekick" characters possess.

I have played the Sidekicks before and didn't feel left behind, but I certainly understand what you mean. There's nothing wrong with that.

To suit a great deal of assistance to allies while being an ultimate skill monkey, naturally my next suggestion wid be a bard, likely with some rogue.

There's also the Celestial Generalist Warlock you may have heard of on this site, and the Knowledge Cleric is also a good mention.

With most of those options, you don't really need much, if any, multi-classing.

[Unoriginal]

You know what might be a decent place to look?

Good suggestions, animorte, but the site you linked is against the forum's rules to link.

[animorte]

How did I miss that? Thanks, fixed.

[RogueJK]

Why not just go with a rogue and pick up some skill feats?
A Half-Elf Mastermind with Skilled, Skill Expert, and Prodigy has proficiency in all but 5 skills, and Expertise in 5 skills, by level 10.

You still have full sneak attack progression and can start with a 16 DEX.

This.

And once you get all that plus Reliable Talent online at Rogue 11, then 3 levels of Lore Bard gets you 2 more Expertise and proficiency in 4 of the 5 remaining skills (1 at Bard 1 and 3 more at Lore Bard 3). So rather than dipping around into 4 classes, I'd do something like:

Rogue 11 -> Lore Bard 9, or
Rogue 11 -> Lore Bard 6 -> Rogue 14, or
Rogue 11 -> Lore Bard 3 -> Rogue 17.

It'll be a more effective character overall than the quadruple-multiclass, while still being basically as good at skills as the Rogue/Cleric/Bard/Ranger mess. (And if you really want to squeeze out that one final skill proficiency, grab just Ranger 1 after Lore Bard 3 before going back to either Bard or Rogue, which gets you the final proficiency plus another Expertise via Canny.)


Also worth considering instead of Mastermind is Soulknife Rogue, if you want to double-down on being a skill monkey in exchange for the BA Help Action. (You'll be able to eventually "help your buddy" at range with Bonus Action Bardic Inspiration anyway.)

Soulknives get Psi-Bolstered Knack, which reads:

"When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds."

Considering you will have Proficiency in all but 5 skills by Rogue 10 and all but 1 skill by Rogue 11/Lore Bard 3 (or all skills by Rogue 11/Bard 3/Ranger 1), that means you get a second chance +1d6 at just about any failed skill check. And it dovetails nicely with Reliable Talent, since if 10+PB+STATMOD isn't quite enough, you can then call on +1d6 to help put you over the edge as needed.


This might actually be one of those times that Standard Human is actually worth considering. Something like this:
Standard Human Mastermind or Soulknife Rogue 11/Lore Bard 8/Ranger 1
STR 8+1
DEX 14+1
CON 13+1
INT 13+1
WIS 13+1
CHA 13+1
ASIs: Skill Expert (16 DEX) at Rogue 4, Prodigy and Skilled at Rogue 8 and 10, 18 DEX at Bard 4, Lucky at Bard 8

The only downside is that in exchange for the more well-rounded stat spread with a Standard Human instead of Half-Elf, you'll be missing one skill proficiency (likely Athletics since we had to dump STR). Basically, you're not a strong guy, but you know how to do just about anything, and are a great "cheerleader" and assistant too.

[tieren]

I have played the Sidekicks before and didn't feel left behind, but I certainly understand what you mean. There's nothing wrong with that.

What was your experience like playing a sidekick? Was the whole party sidekicks? Were you the follower of one particular party member or just helped everyone? Did the rest of the party appreciate you or think you weren't pulling your weight?


Thank you RogueJK, that is some good advice to consider.

[animorte]

What was your experience like playing a sidekick? Was the whole party sidekicks? Were you the follower of one particular party member or just helped everyone? Did the rest of the party appreciate you or think you weren't pulling your weight?

Spoiler: Response, but kind of a derail

Show

To be honest, the generic classes from 3.5e were better, being able to acquire specific class features through feats, albeit weaker. In 3.5 I had a mounted Warrior, all of his feats built for it and dag-nabbit he was good at it. (Honestly, if I remember correctly, the Warrior was outright designed better than the Fighter anyway.)

Moving to 5e, I've played the Expert once (which feels the best) and the Spellcaster twice. Of course you don't have subclass features to define the character and playing a sidekick generally requires you to be a bit more creative than usual.

As the Expert, I was playing as a fractal mascot (from Strixhaven) that had lost and was on a quest to find its original companion. It was easily the most useful character in the party out of combat, being able to modify its size and shape as well. In combat, it was largely about being in position to assist allies.

The thing I like about the spellcasters is the access to multiple spell lists. Wisdom grants the Cleric and Druid lists, Charisma grants the Bard and Warlock lists. I played a Wisdom caster once and a Charisma caster once. (I've never had much interest in Int casters.)

As you could guess, my Charisma caster was quiet a reliable party face, specifically having a spell list to support this style of play. It took great pride in effective diplomacy, but was quite low in damage ranking.

The Wisdom caster was primarily a support that was actually considered a sidekick to the party. Everything at his availability was for assisting whichever friend in need for various occurrences.

Again, the point should be made that a greater sense of creativity feels like a necessity. I enjoyed the opportunity to trade higher spells and more slots for a greater variety of choice. In the cases of the spellcasting classes, not unlike any typical caster, one must save the right spell for the right time, in dire circumstances. Otherwise, you rely heavily on cantrips (often with the correct riders or just OOC versatility). If you don't have somebody else covering the same role, you really stand out.

Thanks for asking, it's fun to discuss the Sidekicks as I don't really get much opportunity to do so. And if you're looking for an optimal class from 1-7, they honestly aren't quite the best route (obviously). It often depends on the nature of your party and the DM's approach in responding to each character.

[Samayu]

I think if you single-class, you'd be more likely to have a high attribute or two, which means you could do everything, but would still be really good at a few things. You concept with 14's in four different attributes means you'd be good at everything, but not great at any of them, which would help you avoid the spotlight, or ticking off the other players.