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2023-02-06, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
That's kind of my thought on the whole thing. A +1 on your primary stat isn't honestly THAT big of a deal unless you are playing at a fairly-high-optimization table. And if you ARE playing at a high-optimization table where it's important that you pull your own weight, then make optimized choices.
Street Racing Game Player: I wanna drive an Edsel, because it's unique and different and I want to play against type!
Devs: Sure, here's an Edsel.
<Two minutes later>
Player: Why can't my Edsel keep up with the other players' Lambos?!? This is BULLS--T!
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2023-02-06, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2023-02-06, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Yeah but a half-orc monk isn't "off meta" or "unique" it just sucks in the most boring possible way (having lower numbers)
With Tasha's rules Half-Orcs still aren't as good at being monks as other races, but they are a lot better than they were.
Meanwhile the optimizers get more options than just "play or tabax, wood elf... or just go vhuman/half elf again." Wood Elves and Tabaxi are really good still, but you can also play a mountain dwarf or goliath or bugbear or githzerai or dragonborn and be very strong while also being unique.
So the floor is a lot higher and there's a lot more diversity at the top level. Seems like an unmettled win?
First of all, Tasha's didn't print new races so I'm not sure what you're on about.
As to other new races (fizbans dragonborn, owlkin, hobgoblins, MMOM races) I think the fact that you even need fixed ASIs listed for you rather underlines how arbitrary and stupid they are. If fixed ability mods actually correlated to something meaningful in the fluff, you wouldn't need fixed ASIs because you'd look at an autognome and go "oh obviously they get bonuses to int and wis" and it wouldn't be up for debate.
But you can't do that because fixed ability mods are completely arbitrary and don't really correspond to anything int the fluff.Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2023-02-06, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-06, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-06, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
The only class I can really think of that the new Orc doesn't get as much out of is Rogue, and that's simply because Cunning Action Dash is somewhat redundant with Adrenaline Rush... and even then, AR has benefits over the former. The Orc's other features benefit a rogue quite beautifully too; Darkvision for sneaking around, Relentless Endurance to feign death in a dangerous situation, even Powerful Build to help you haul loot better than you could otherwise etc.
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2023-02-06, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I never said it did.
No, I can't do that because I don't give crap about new races. If I did, perhaps I could figure out what ASI they should have. Assuming they had anything to work with in the first place... there's barely any fluff for them.It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2023-02-06, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I think that fixed ability mods
- pigeonhole races into certain classes (half-orcs are only really good as barbarians and strength paladins/fighters)
- Make certain classes (particularly MAD classes like monk) have very few truly good options
- are really boring and don't actually serve to differentiate races to a useful or mechanically interesting degree.
"how strong is a half orc?"
"functionally, as strong as a strong half-elf."
"How strong is a tiefling?"
"as strong as a halfling."
You've talked about races in "trashas" (which had no new races in it) said that you don't care about new releases, but are angry that they don't have fixed ASIs, but could easily figure out what they should be, if you cared/they had good lore.
Kinda hard to follow here.
But really, how good were the fixed ASIs at following the 'lore'? Dwarves having CON bonuses and Elves having DEX bonuses, sure. Strong half-orcs. But from there it gets murky.
Dragonborn in 3.5 were a template that could have any base states but had a bonus to CON and a malus to CHA, to reflect the process of their transformation leaving them hardened but also physically awkward. So logically you'd assume a CON bonus and a floating ASI, or somethingg similar in 5e. Instead they get STR and CHA because.... paladins? Sorcerer? It's a bit hard to parse, to be honest.
Tieflings had a malus to CHA in 3.5, to reflect that they were hated and feared, but in 5e they get a large bonus? Because horns are sexy? Or because wotc wanted them to be be warlocks IG? (nevermind that warlocks being CHA-based makes little sense based on lore...)
And of course gnomes did have a bonus to CON in 3.5 and some gnomes do now, but how much sense does that make? You're extra hardy despite being 3 feet tall?
Any actual examination of the fixed ASIs that most of these races actually has leads to the conclusion that an awful lot of these decisions were pretty much arbitrary and had large mechanical impacts for no real reason. And the net effect was that most people just played humans or half elves. It was just easier.Last edited by strangebloke; 2023-02-06 at 06:53 PM.
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2023-02-06, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
The ideal would be that for each race/class combo, you would find players and corresponding builds and campaign contexts such that those players would say 'this is the best race for me to use in this build' and, if you were to shuffle the mechanics and fluff, those players would still say that about wherever the mechanics ended up landing.
Hard to universally achieve, but that would be the thing to aim for for me.Last edited by NichG; 2023-02-06 at 08:16 PM.
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2023-02-06, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
So paladins, barbarians and. Sounds like the pre-Tasha's half orc does have several class options.
[*]Make certain classes (particularly MAD classes like monk) have very few truly good options
[*]are really boring and don't actually serve to differentiate races to a useful or mechanically interesting degree.
"how strong is a half orc?"
"functionally, as strong as a strong half-elf."
"How strong is a tiefling?"
"as strong as a halfling."
I don't think that's a universal perspective (I know you are not saying it is) - some game designs deliberately restrict class access - DnD 1e and 2e did it, and it's not uncommon to have the dwarves are incompatible with magic trope.
A couple of questions. First, do you think that each class /race combo needs to be equally (or similarly) powerful. So would it bother you if you could make a gnome fighter which was viable, but it was still less well optimised than an orc fighter. Or an orc wizard is possible, but is less optimised than an elf wizard?
Second, do you think your preference for each class combo to be viable is the overriding factor? Or do you think it needs to be balanced against each race being meaningfully and mechanically different from one another, as well as avoiding the sillyness of small races being as strong as big races?Last edited by Liquor Box; 2023-02-06 at 11:07 PM.
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2023-02-07, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
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2023-02-07, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Well, part of the reason I phrase it the way I do is to get away from the sense that every character can be summarized as a single number which is 'how powerful are they', because if you do that then it becomes difficult to actually see how you might design this.
I like to use Path of Exile as an example of a game (CRPG, yes) that has a huge diversity of builds, because there are multiple factors that can't be reduced into a single scalar power, and its relatively easy to see how those come about. I would say that the four main practical factors in a PoE character are: survivability, clear speed, DPS, and cost. If I'm playing a new league I will generally end up making 3-4 different characters in order to cover these bases. I need a fast clearing character to get currency and drops effectively and unlock maps, I need a high survivability character for certain special game modes like Delve as well as for things where the cost of dying is multiple hours of gameplay, I need a high DPS character for special bosses and endgame content, and I need these things at both a 'low cost' level as well as a 'high cost' level - the low cost level to act as a league starter, and the high cost level to hit higher peaks as I gain resources. So that's between 4 to 6 characters.
On top of that, different 'main attacks' have very different aesthetics of play. I can make a character who is relatively weak but is basically a walking simulator - they automatically kill things around them on-hit and on-kill and chain effects. I can make one-button characters, characters with complicated flask sequences and need to self-buff or react to situations with different active abilities, etc. I can make characters whose playstyle is that they have a 'rev up' period and then they sustain power for 30 seconds, or characters who summon armies and then mostly just buff their minions and keep themselves alive. Single-target absolute blenders, or characters who wipe out screens of weak mobs at a time and have to change to a high damage option against bosses, etc.
So rather than saying 'a gnome fighter has to be as powerful as an orc fighter', I want to instead say that, for some combination of purpose and plan and aesthetic of play and campaign context (low level, high level, low gear, high gear), I should feel like I would be worse off if I accepted an offer from the GM to keep the fluff of the gnome but get the orc's mechanics instead.
Maybe my personal aesthetics of play will never favor the gnome and every single time I'll do orc fighter. That's okay, so long as for some other set of players, their aesthetics of play go the other way around.
Second, do you think your preference for each class combo to be viable is the overriding factor? Or do you think it needs to be balanced against each race being meaningfully and mechanically different from one another, as well as avoiding the sillyness of small races being as strong as big races?
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2023-02-07, 01:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Honestly, I think it's because inter-score balance is busted, and the classes have received nowhere near the polish in design that would allow the stats and racial abilities to be more balanced for a wider variety of cases (including atypical arrays, broad-spreads and valid secondary stat ideals), so instead the designers went to a default of treating the races all the same, in terms of how their abilities (both stats/bonuses and intangibles) interacted with the class abilities.
I think the designers took the easy way out, and that put the onus of viability onto the races, which was exacerbated by the current social trend of looking at game-races with an eye to player diversity. Things like, if a race already has a swim speed, or darkvision, or armor proficiency, then a class ability recreates it, that whole feature is wasted, when they could've added a minor line that gives that bonus some further benefit for the overlap, like an improved value (as w/ swim/darkvision), or stacking further benefits. That kind of stuff being missing just makes the whole system feel lazily designed.
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2023-02-07, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
My personal preferred example is Drow, prior editions and current setting stuff get into drow have long practiced and affinity to magic, along with the elite classes of their society being Clerics and Wizards along with this. So one would expect an int or wis bonus, 3.5 did some gender dimorphism with favored classes being wizard for male drow (excluded from the clergy) and Cleric for female drow (part of the clergy of Loth, or a disappointment to ones family). And they get Cha, for the noble reason, that high elf got Int and Wood elf got Wis, and that left Cha for drow.
On this note, if you want to use fixed ASIs at table, floating ASIs still has some benefits as a DM tool, if you see the stats of different races as off base, or correct with some caveats. Like say if you think elves should have a strength bonus instead of a mental stat (they are supposed to be good with longswords aren't they?). Alternatively, you can use it to tailor world-building, (Dragonborn will have an int bonus instead of cha, because we are repurposing the race a bit for this world).
But now we are at the phase of this conversation, fixed ASI tables lose nothing, floating ASI tables gain utility, and fixed ASI with addendums gets a balance is probably fine token from the Dev team. Even if ones preference is fixed, the game is benefited by the shift as it harms no one, and provides an additional point of utility.My sig is something witty.
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2023-02-07, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Well, that's my point. What you describe is a game mechanical effect.
As pointed out in post 1 (and various times in this thread), I'm advocating that this would not longer be the case. Regardless if you make- a warlock who maxed INT or CHA
- a wizard who maxed INT or CON
- a fighter who maxed STR or DEX
Your attack, damage, AC, init and DC would be the same (presuming both builds take the same combat style scores).
Quite true. Now - I'd say attack, damage modifier, DC, etc ... is what determines what is a classes primairy, ... stats?
If I note, (arguably)- Brienne & Jaime are equally capable
- Brienne & The mountain who are equally exceptional (both significantly stronger indivduals compared to their respective group)
But also
- The Viper & The mountain also equally capable - despite the mountain being significantly stronger.
I wouldn't be surprized if Brienne was stronger then The Viper. And that's what I advocate: that this OK - that doesn't mean Brienne, or The Viper, should be less capable fighters then The Mountain. In a fight, people use their own strengths.
so ... *points to post 1 of this thread* ... like that?
Again, if you're against elves getting +2 DEX as the game is now - I 100% get that. To quote
Imagine you want to make Auroth, a brutal Orc Sorcerer.
Orcs don't get the sorcerer casting stat? too bad for you.
one of my fav characters was a lvl 1 fighter half-dragon with a lvl 4 party :)
But more then that, while in default 5E, +8 STR is indeed OP, ... looking at post 1, they idea of +8 strength, while powerful, doesn't seem ... THAT overpowered. (vs a default +2 STR race, it ends up a +3 difference on strength saves and skills.)Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
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2023-02-07, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
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2023-02-07, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
3, maybe 4 classes that a given race is actually good for is not some stunning example of flexibility.
You say that ability scores are "meant to make a race stand out"
But objectively they don't. WRT strength, for example, you either have a bonus or you don't. All races either (can) have a bonus to STR, or can't. A Half-Orc isn't stronger than a mountain dwarf or half elf or human or bugbear or goliath. Meanwhile everything that doesn't have that modifier is also the same. Gnomes are as strong as elves are as strong as tabaxi are as strong as halflings, etc.
Fixed ability scores create two categories of race, for any given stat: those that have a bonus to the stat, and those who don't. Dividing every race into two categories doesn't make them distinctive. There's no differentiation among the halves.
What post-tasha's has been done, is to throw away fixed ability scores as a source of distinctiveness AND REPLACE IT WITH OTHER FEATURES.
Look at PHB dragonborn. Look at Fizban's Dragonborn. Tell me with a straight face that the Fizban's Dragonborn is less interesting. Tell me that the MMOM Goliath is less interesting than the EE version.
Dude, that was literally all true in the player's hand book.
Come on dude, you don't actually think that someone getting +2 to DEX or whatever compensates for not getting a +2 to their main stat.
It's obvious that in a version of DND where men get a bonus to strength and women don't, Brienne would be a deeply suboptimal build. And while that might make sense in a system that's intended to reflect the unforgiving and brutal world of westeros, it makes very little sense in DND, a system which has an aesthetic that I'd generally describe as "woo woo flashy magic explodey bang woo bang slash"
I mean partially that's because STR sucks, but no.
Someone with (functionally) a +3 magic greatsword out the gate? I've let someone build this character. He destroyed every encounter unless he got CC'd to oblivion, and his damage was good enough that he could load up on feats that made it hard to CC him.
Its "fine" because a dumb STR fighter is basically never breaking the game, but do this with DEX or WIS and the problem gets way more severe.Last edited by strangebloke; 2023-02-07 at 10:29 AM.
Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2023-02-07, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
No, post 1 of this thread.
Considering it's not convoluted, nor complex, nor for complexity's sake - I can only conclude you're looking at something else.
But just in case you were looking at the first post of this thread, and you found something too complex, you are free to point it out, so I can explain it - and even maybe edit it in the first post.
Oh no, I 100% agree. Because "+2 to their main stat", is not just +1 to save & skills, but also to attack & damage (or spells DCs, or ...)
so ... that's where I got the idea: what if that "attack & damage (or spells DCs, or ...)" thing from the previous sentence ... would no longer be tied to the 6 existing ability scores, but a new set:- the 6 ability score describe a character natural attributes (strength, intelligence, ...)
- another set of scores that allowing you to determine your fighting style. (do you focus on attacks, on the DC of your abilities, on your AC, etc ...)
As you state yourself: the problem with +8 STR vs +2 STR, basically is that they get a "free +3 greatsword" - a free +3 to attack & damage. Which is ONLY the case, as long as attack & damage work on strength.
If attack no longer works on strength ... then suddenly the entire game of throne cast becomes a possibility:
- Brienne of Tarth - could combine her focus (wisdom) & strength
- Jamie Lansiter - could combine strength with charisma
- Stannis Baratheon - could be a high intelligence character, where you flavor his capability by knowing 1001 strategies & sword techniques; and of course, corring people's grammar
- Jon Snow - could be an all round character - some strength, consitution, wisdom & charisma.
- Oberyn Martell - could be one who combines dexterity and charisma
As DnD is now, these characters don't get made, because the "spellcasting ability score", the "attack ability score", ... are ability scores. Whatever you attack ability score is (STR for fighters, INT for wizards, CHA for sorcerers) ... you get pushed to maximize that. If you don't - you miss out on that "+3 greatsword" ... meaning, every fighter ends up as The Mountain.
Spoiler
Spoiler
Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
Alucard (TFS): I do things. I take very enthusiastic walks through the woods
Math Rule of thumb: 1/X chance : There's about a 2/3 of it happening at least once in X tries
Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb
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2023-02-07, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
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2023-02-07, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
You are getting fixated on the specifics of how things are now and making any position as adjacent to this, where as, I am talking more generalised. So, for example, you argue for wanting differences while not liking being mathematically penalised and therefore stats cannot be a part of the race to achieve this; in my ideal, all the stats would have value to all classes, just in different ways. In this scenario, there is no penalisation for a race/class combo, only for a specific build. So in this ideal, stats can achieve this.
Yes, of course, everyone in one camp or the other that I specified doesn't want all the same things - there are near infinite divisions within these camps. So you and I may want differences in race/species and yet want totally different differences. The problem for both of us is that the current trend of 5e is going towards no differences, and there is a camp that desires that so we can't say WotC are objectively wrong to do so.
I actually think 5e is probably best suited to the approach of no differences. What could be simpler? What could be more 5e? All flash, no bang. I'll be awaiting a whole different edition.Last edited by Aimeryan; 2023-02-07 at 02:16 PM.
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2023-02-07, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Jumping in this thread late, but if it hasn't been said yet, I think it's worth noting WHY someone might care about not getting a +2 to their main stat. It's not just because they're irrationally obsessed with being "the best." It's because in 5e, (1) a strong majority of your offensive rolls (or DCs) are usually based in ONE stat, and (2) boosting stats comes at the opportunity cost of not getting a feat, and feats are really precious commodities.
So if I'm a high level rogue with 18 Dex instead of 20, I'm 5+% less likely to succeed on every attempt to do anything even vaguely roguish - sneak around, stab someone in the back, pick a lock, whatever. The only way to fix that is to give up one of my feats for an ASI, and (especially as a non-spellcaster) this means giving up one of very few customization points after level 3, just to stay mechanically on par with a more "optimal" race.
I've actually suggested something similar to the OP but just for attack bonuses and spell DCs, because I think that change alone would drastically reduce the relative importance of primary stats.
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2023-02-07, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Even simpler is to make stats not modify save DCs and to-hit.
The stats are too mechanically important. A +2 to strength improves your PC as much as +4 levels in your classes core ability to do something.
The option of +2 to a prime stat means "do you want your character to be 4 levels more competent or not", which is why it was mandatory, and why having it in-game was a problem.
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2023-02-07, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Something I think might be worth linking, from about three or four months ago.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2023-02-07, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
By convoluted I didn't mean incomprehensible, I meant overengineered and unnecessary.
Yes, your additional invented stat layer allows for an Orc swordfighter to smash through their opponent's defenses with brute strength, and the Eladrin swordfighter to slip around their defenses and target vital areas with precision, thus fitting your narrative preconceptions about how all members of these species would approach a swordfight. This is something the game already lets you do by simply choosing to be a Str- or Dex-based fighter and putting your highest score there, but I digress. I understand your goal was to make racial ASIs more palatable by decoupling combat statistics from them and putting them towards these new scores instead, letting you play an off-meta race without falling behind in terms of raw damage output or defense.
The problem with this is that the fantasy of being a "dex fighter" or "str fighter" does not begin and end at making and receiving attack rolls. Ability checks and saving throws happen during combat too. If someone is playing an agile combatant, they're not just wanting to keep up in terms of damage with a rapier or bow, they want to be someone that can walk a tightrope, or sneak past a guard, or dodge a spray of acid etc. Similarly, the person wanting to be Str-based also wants to hold a door shut against an onrushing horde, or drag a fallen ally to safety with one hand, or flip a table to use as cover, or shove a teetering statue onto their enemies. In short, even with your added layer, stats are still more than just cosmetic addons to a character even during a fight. And by keeping racial ASIs fixed, you're saying that Orc adventurers can never be as good at the former set while Eladrin ones can never be as good at the latter set. And that is unacceptable.
Or I suppose you could keep going with additions to your layer, adding on more Defense scores for all the things that saving throws tied to those stats would originally represent, and utility scores for all the things that ability checks key off of. And when you're done, the racial ASIs won't cause issues anymore, because they won't mean anything.
This is the premise I fundamentally disagree with, yes. Which means that no, it's not a problem for both of us - just you.Last edited by Psyren; 2023-02-07 at 03:47 PM.
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2023-02-07, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Yes, agreed.
I think just taking this relatively simple step (maybe just double PB on attack rolls and DCs instead of adding an ability modifier?) opens up a lot more diversity in ability score allocations. For example, a 16-Str, 20-Con barbarian does a tad less damage than 20-Str, 16-Con, but he has a lower AC and fewer HP.
The biggest remaining issue is that if this isn't a part of a broader revamp (like 5.5), you end up with weirdnesses like Wizards not caring much about Int.
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2023-02-07, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Make Martials CoolAgain.
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2023-02-07, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-02-07, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
ASIs make sense on any of it. Race, background, class. Any of it could influence your stats.
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2023-02-07, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
As I mentioned on page one, my primary thought on the matter of the house rule is we already have a system for skill set as aposed to atrltributes, which is proficiency. Adding a set of scores is fine, but also an additional set of numbers to track, and if it is just a set of numbers to make the class a go-go it doesn't need to be fungable like ability scores.
Double proficiency bonus and half the effects of ability scores was my recommendation. The exact numbers could be tinkered, but it generally reduces the concerns with ability score chasing and solves a minor problem I have with ability scores, which is they are more role defining that class for the most part.My sig is something witty.
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2023-02-07, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
If core combat competencies are left out of it and we're just looking at stunting, why is an halfling having a slight edge at being Quick while a dragonborn has an edge being Powerful a bad thing, while a dwarf will have an edge on resisting poison over my elf no matter how much I write "iron stomach" on my character sheet. (And if I convince the DM to give me an actual Iron Stomach feat, that would tie up a feat slot that the dwarf could use for something else useful instead.) Once you reach the level of what sort of stunts you do instead of how well you do your basic job, that sounds about right for racial differentiation if we're going to have racial differentiation at all.
Of course core competencies are going to remain tied to stats, because if WotC even thought about decoupling them there'd be raging about how the resulting game was "not D&D". But if that weren't the case, when would it be okay to say that one character will forever have an edge on something because of theirracespecies. And if the answer is "never", what's the point of racial features existing anyways?