Magic Immunity

[Ranis]

I had my group up against a couple of Grave Dirt Golems this week, and we got into a dispute about what exactly the immunity to magic is. As per Libris Mortis for Magic Immunity for Grave Dirt Golems, and I'm pretty sure this what all golem Magic Immunity special abilities state:

.....golem is immune to spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural effects, just as if the attacker had failed to overcome spell resistance.

Okay, so my group took this to mean that if you cast a spell that doesn't allow spell resistance that it would affect the golem. I really disagree because it's still a magical source; however, I allowed the damage from my Warmage's Blast of Flame to affect them normally, because it stated that the fire created by the spell was nonmagical.

So my question posed is thus: where are the lines drawn as far as Magic Immunity is concerned? My take on it is that any kind of spell, no matter what kind of damage it takes, would be completely ineffective. If this is cleared up somewhere, then I can't find it anywhere on Core. Pointing me in the right direction would be very appreciated.

[AslanCross]

Well, the current d20 wording for typical golem magic immunity is this:

A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance.

Now, I'm of the opinion that the Gravedirt Golem's Immunity is intended to work this way. The only creatures that have Immunity that ignores ALL spells (the wording completely skips the Spell Resistance clause) are epic. (See the Colossi).

However, as far as I can remember, any Conjuration spell that deals damage creates a nonmagical flame or acid. Since it's nonmagical, it damages the creature regardless. (That's why the Orb spells are so cheap effective.)

[fireinthedust]

my take on it would be to prohibit direct spell damage of any sort. I don't think magic missile is affected by spell resistence, but it certainly would be blocked by spell/magic immunity.

However, if the PCs created a Wall of Iron and had it drop on the golem, that wouldn't be an issue. Same thing with the conjuration of objects that are then slammed against the target. The Orb spells arn't that high level, are they? I don't have their sourcebook, but I recall using a sorcerer years ago who had them doing 1d8 dmg. I think non-magical flames don't do nearly as much damage as magical ones (same with other non-magical sources) so the golem's massive hit points wouldn't be as bothered. Even a bonfire or house-on-fire is only so many dice (compared with a lava pit or mage's fireball).

My Question: the golem would have DR against non-magical damage sources, right? sometimes energy immunity, also, so physical attacks should be les effective.

In gneral, though, it' in the spirit of the ability to say spells don't work. The PCs need to give a VERY good reason as to why the spell shouldn#t fail completely against the golem.

[Roderick_BR]

As Aslan said, yes, spells that doesn't grant spell resistance works. Orbs are elemental attacks created by magic, but they are not magic themselves (they are treated as elemental attacks, not magical attacks, I think).
Same thing if someone casts a Grease spell in the golen's path. He'll slide on it the same.

[Keld Denar]

The way you treat it is just the same as with a creature with SR. Just pretend that it has an SR 1 higher than the highest SR all present PCs and NPCs can beat. ;)

So, it would be immune to Magic Missile, because MM allows SR.

It would not be immune to most Conjourations (Grease, Glitterdust, Orbs, etc) because they are stated as SR: No.


The question is, most golems are thematically affected by certain spells (such as a stone golems vulnerability to Transmute Rock to Mud). Some of those thematic spells allow SR, though. Would a golem specifically not be immune to those spells because they are specifically mentioned in the creatures combat text?

[AslanCross]

The Gravedirt golem is susceptible to move earth and disintegrate, much like how the clay golem is.

[Arakune]

Deal with it. Immunity in this game means 'harder to use'.

I'm still dreaming on the day they will give (a raw source, at least) some full-scale immunity against magic.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Deal with it. Immunity in this game means 'harder to use'.

I'm still dreaming on the day they will give (a raw source, at least) some full-scale immunity against magic.

AMF. That core enough for you?

[The Glyphstone]

AMF. That core enough for you?

The Orb spells are nonmagical once cast, so they can hit something inside an AMF. Stupid, but RAW.

[Azerian Kelimon]

They can, along with solid fog, kill even a colossus, since they deal damage anyway, and the solid fog still works, because it's a creation. Even those big bad guys fall to orbs.

[GoC]

The Orb spells are nonmagical once cast, so they can hit something inside an AMF. Stupid, but RAW.

I think the Orb spells should be made 5th level and do 1d8 per two levels instead of 1d6 per level.

[Keld Denar]

The Gravedirt golem is susceptible to move earth and disintegrate, much like how the clay golem is.

I don't remember off the top of my head about Move Earth, but I know Disintegrate allows for SR. So, that would probably mean Disintegrate would affect a Gravedirt Golem EVEN THOUGH it allows SR. I mean, it would be pretty dumb for a creature to have a vulnerability to a spell it is completely immune to. Then again, it is WotC we are working with....

EDIT:
The real golem killer spell is Freezing Fog. Its a no SR, has a reflex save or fall prone, and is subject to the same 5' per round movement that Solid Fog has. Most golems will be stuck in there indeffinately, due to inability to move from a combination of being prone and the density of the fog, and they will take 1d6 cold damage per round, no save. Sure, it'll take about a month for a 300 hp greater stone golem to go down, but it'll happen eventually.

[Kaelik]

I think the Orb spells should be made 5th level and do 1d8 per two levels instead of 1d6 per level.

Right, because then no one would ever use them, and you'd have one more crappy spell that never gets used.

Why do people make changes like that? Either remove them or leave them useful.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Right, because then no one would ever use them, and you'd have one more crappy spell that never gets used.

Why do people make changes like that? Either remove them or leave them useful.

Yeah, they aren't even broken, they're just good blaster spells. I usually take one or two of them so that no matter what I can always prepare a spell of any energy type.

[Theli]

I don't remember off the top of my head about Move Earth, but I know Disintegrate allows for SR. So, that would probably mean Disintegrate would affect a Gravedirt Golem EVEN THOUGH it allows SR. I mean, it would be pretty dumb for a creature to have a vulnerability to a spell it is completely immune to. Then again, it is WotC we are working with....

I don't think that's very fair. IIRC, the original DnD golems were immune to EVERYTHING, except a very few number of spells. If you didn't have those spells, you were pretty much out of luck.

So instead of just making all magic fail, they gave the immunity to everything affected by spell resistance. (So that spells such as grease could still effect them, without added a whole bunch of rules on what could or couldn't work. I'm sure the original intention of the golem was to allow SOME amount of magic to work, without having to use the very specific counters. But you had to figure out what could or couldn't on your own.)

But in order to keep the flavor of the classic golem, they included an exception in the monsters' descriptions. So while disintegrate might have failed due to the SR rule, it's exempted from the rule for flavor reasons.

I don't understand what the problem here is.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Yeah, the line is drawn at "Magic Immunity mean anything with SR". It makes sense- SR is the creatures natural ressitance to Magic. A golem's Magic Immunity is simply extremely good magical resistance. Spells that don't allow SR bypass a creatures natural resistance. Thus, Spells that don't allow SR bypass a Golem's Magical Resistance, much like they would for any other creature with spell resistance.

[Mewtarthio]

Or, more to the point, spells that ignore SR are spells that create an effect which is, for the duration of the spell, nonmagical. In other words, they affect their targets indirectly: Rather than saying "You are now burning to death," they just say "Here's some fire; let's see what happens."

[Chronos]

Right, because then no one would ever use them, and you'd have one more crappy spell that never gets used.

They would still get used by folks who barred Evocation but still want to do damage, or who want to damage things in AMFs or with high spell resistance, or by folks who want to do obscure damage types like Sonic to things with a lot of elemental resistances. This is as opposed to the current situation, where it's Fireball that never gets used.

[Aquillion]

They would still get used by folks who barred Evocation but still want to do damage, or who want to damage things in AMFs or with high spell resistance, or by folks who want to do obscure damage types like Sonic to things with a lot of elemental resistances. This is as opposed to the current situation, where it's Fireball that never gets used.

Fireball will never get used regardless, at least not by anyone who cares about power. Blasting magic is mechanically weak. This isn't the fault of the orbs. They're slightly less pathetically weak than other blasting spells, but they're still pretty weak most of the time when compared with spells that can instantly eliminate the opposition or make them suck enough to get the same effect.

The only reason anyone uses the orbs is because they don't allow SR and therefore give the wizard a few more options. If they dealt worthless damage like you're suggesting, then nobody would use any blasting spells at all; fireball is weak because 1d6 damage per level attached to a save and SR is fairly pathetic when other spells can take the opposition out directly, not because people are comparing it to orbs.

[Draz74]

They would still get used by folks who barred Evocation but still want to do damage, or who want to damage things in AMFs or with high spell resistance, or by folks who want to do obscure damage types like Sonic to things with a lot of elemental resistances. This is as opposed to the current situation, where it's Fireball that never gets used.

True, but d8 per two levels is harsh. Maybe d4 per level would be better.

[AslanCross]

I don't remember off the top of my head about Move Earth, but I know Disintegrate allows for SR. So, that would probably mean Disintegrate would affect a Gravedirt Golem EVEN THOUGH it allows SR. I mean, it would be pretty dumb for a creature to have a vulnerability to a spell it is completely immune to. Then again, it is WotC we are working with....

Many of the golems have an "Immune to everything, for the most part. This spell has a different effect, though" clause in their immunity description.
They don't have their regular effects on the golem, but they do hurt it. Example, the Clay Golem.

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A move earth spell drives the golem back 120 feet and deals 3d12 points of damage to it.

A disintegrate spell slows the golem (as the slow spell) for 1d6 rounds and deals 1d12 points of damage.

An earthquake spell cast directly at a clay golem stops it from moving on its next turn and deals 5d10 points of damage. The golem gets no saving throw against any of these effects.

Any magical attack against a clay golem that deals acid damage heals 1 point of damage for every 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a clay golem hit by the breath weapon of a black dragon heals 7 points of damage if the attack would have dealt 22 points of damage. A clay golem golem gets no saving throw against magical attacks that deal acid damage.

Mr. Gravedirt has similar clauses for disintegrate and move earth.

[FinalJustice]

Where did this 'orbs are creations thus enter into an AMF' come from? Is there any entry on any book who says it or it's just an interpretation for ther non SRiness?

[Kaelik]

Where did this 'orbs are creations thus enter into an AMF' come from? Is there any entry on any book who says it or it's just an interpretation for ther non SRiness?

It would be the line in AMF's description that goes:

(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Note the duration of the Orb spells, and their school.

[Kaelik]

Where did this 'orbs are creations thus enter into an AMF' come from? Is there any entry on any book who says it or it's just an interpretation for ther non SRiness?

It would be the line in AMF's description that goes:

(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Note the duration of the Orb spells, and their school.

[fireinthedust]

what about summoned creatures fighting a Golem? would summoned elementals blink out of existence because their spells are still in effect?

I think the question is how powerful the magic-user in the party is, when deciding whether or not the golem is immune to spell sin general. I personally am tempted to have a golem treated as a juggernaut of mage-killing-ness. Why? because. Something has to challenge PCs, and having created guardians that spells fail against in combat... well, it works. Just like how Beholders don't just have an AMF spell (which only gets a few levels, orcaster levels), they have a zone of utter non-spell/magic use coming out that central eye. Ditto a critter in MM4, and various other mage-eating creatures. Same idea, only it's a golem. That's scary for a wizard.

Granted, it would be nice if there was... well, I don't know if this is what they're talking about for 4th edition, but if wizards used a wand or a staff while casting a spell, they could overcome a certain amount of the golem's spell-invulnerability. Y'know, like how DR20/silver and magic means that the critter only takes damage directly when the opponent uses a silver and magical weapon? Well, it's a thought. Maybe "fire and wand" means that only fire spells cast with a wand will get through the Golem's otherwise total spell immunity.

an excuse for quests to get the right wands, but there you go.