Pondering the 5.5 Wizard

[Kane0]

In the end they kinda need to balance the schools. Once they do that then they have a solid foundation to actually do something cool/interesting.

Indeed, but chances are it's not going to happen, at least not this time around. You could however do the expanded-spells-from-subclass thing, but supercharge it in the case of wizards. For example instead of two of spell levels 1-5, wizard subclasses add four of spell levels 1-5 and two of spell levels 6-9 (added to your spell list like a warlock, not as free preparations like... everyone else). BUT that would necessitate cutting down on the generic Arcane spell list reasonably hard.

[Witty Username]

I do think there's merit behind that type of design, the problem with Wizard is as always their spell list. So much power is derived from their spellcasting that there's not really room to have features that are powerful enough for it to build around. So you have to reduce the power level of spell list but you can't really do that via restricting schools because of how unbalanced the schools are, and if you touch the spell slots it will be hated and likely difficult to do properly. They could also reduce the number of free spells you learn when you level from 2 per level to either 1 or even 0.5 per level but still have the add via finding scrolls other spell books. So a small nerf alongside the small nerf already in terms of prepared spells but I'm not sure it's enough to give out features for both school specialization and subclass abilities.

So it's more likely to end up in a situation where the school you specialize in only has a small generic effect. So maybe linking Arcane Recovery to casting spells from your specialty by doing something like "Once per long rest after you cast a spell from your specialty you can regain a spell slot of a lower level." So probably not enough to make your Illusionist Warmage play much different from the Evoker Warmage but it at least nudges you in the direction.

In the end they kinda need to balance the schools. Once they do that then they have a solid foundation to actually do something cool/interesting.

This is mostly an illusionary problem, the wizard spell list isn't significantly stronger than any other classes, and those classes tend to have interesting features for whatever reason, without balance issues. And wizards have their own potent subclass features.
Take for example that illusionist vs evoker, between malleable illusions and sculpt spells they are going to use spells in vastly different ways, even if their focus is combat.

The issue is that it is frequent compared-contrasted with Sorcerer, which, while not the weakest caster, is the hardest to build correctly and the most likely to be recommended to new players.

And then there is martials, which don't have a power problem with casters so much as 11th level is the end of their meaningful career. All casters look more powerful because they have interesting things to look foward to, for most 17th level, for cleric and wizard all the way to 20th. Even if they get outscaled in damage by an 11th level fighter.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is mostly an illusionary problem, the wizard spell list isn't significantly stronger than any other classes, and those classes tend to have interesting features for whatever reason, without balance issues. And wizards have their own potent subclass features.
Take for example that illusionist vs evoker, between malleable illusions and sculpt spells they are going to use spells in vastly different ways, even if their focus is combat.

Wait...what?

It's 3x the size of the next largest list. It has every single one of the easily-abused or questionably-balanced spells on it. There is really only one niche where it doesn't have the singular best spell for that niche or at least a very strong competitor--healing. It generally goes "hey <other class>--I have a spell that lets me do your Cool Thing...better than you can." And wizards double down by getting very free choice and the singular ability to add spells outside of level up, plus the most flexible preparation system. Plus wish, which is literally "cast any spell of 8th level or lower, faster, with no components". And that's only it's least powerful use.

No, the wizard list is orders of magnitude more powerful than other lists. Often more powerful than multiple other lists combined. And with every published book, the wizard generally gets the most spells, sometimes more than multiple classes combined! Including spells that have no thematic purpose on the wizard list (being heavily warlock, bard, or sorcerer coded).

There's a reason why every "loophole hunting", "game breaking" (scare quotes intentional), "schrodinger's X" build is based around wizards. Other classes can generally specialize to do one thing (such as massive damage). But a wizard can, by virtue of his spell list alone, do 90% of the job of anyone else except in a few specific areas. And even in those areas...a 1 level dip into cleric fixes the whole issue.

[Kane0]

But a wizard can, by virtue of his spell list alone, do 90% of the job of anyone else except in a few specific areas. And even in those areas...a 1 level dip into cleric fixes the whole issue.

Maybe not 1 just level, you'd also want Restoration and Revivify at least. Try the UA Theurge instead

[PhoenixPhyre]

Maybe not 1 just level, you'd also want Restoration and Revivify at least. Try the UA Theurge instead

With 1 level you can use scrolls or items. But I'd say 1 level gets you to 90%.

But yes, then they go and do things like the theurge. At least it never got published. Some things are too far even for WotC and their love affair with wizards

[Witty Username]

It's 3x the size of the next largest list.

So, would you have the same complaint with the divine soul sorcerer?

But puting that aside, many spells on the wizard list are either: bad, going to be invalidated by build choices, or simply unavailable (a wizard that finds 1 scroll a level will have 64 spells by 20th level due to what they can get in the spell book, compared to say the druid's 150 available spells).


They do get all the broken spells though, like healing spirit, plant growth, conjure animals, conjure woodland beings, pass without trace...
Those aren't on the wizard list, they are druid exclusives you say, barring ranger and some bard stuff.
Its fair to not like Simulacrum, but it is hardly a sign of a systemic problem with specifically wizard.

And as for specialization, that is highly variable, if you mean the class has one specialization and no others, I think Barbarian qualifies?
If you mean has to pick one of several options, sorcerer due to spells known limitations, and fighter tend to run into issues if it tries to multi-task?
All the others (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger Rogue, Warlock and Wizard) have multiple roles that they can play simultaneously even when specialized to varying degrees?
These are questions because I am not sure what you mean by one specialization in this context, and which classes would qualify?
--
I can buy bard coded, but I am disinclined to believe a spell can be warlock or sorcerer coded. As discussed earlier a sorcerer is defined alot by bloodline, so most spells are strange on the sorcerer list, due to fiting with one bloodline but conflicting with another, similar with warlock and patron stuff. Most of the time when that stuff is pointed out it seems like everyone assumes all sorcerers are draconic sorcerers and warlocks fiendish patron.

This is part of that oppinion that sorcerer's have no theme discused earlier, they are several themes mashed together with the sorcerer, but they have no thematic overlap. It makes the whole class feel disjointed, like why can a red dragon sorcerer cast spells like water breathing, sleep, or silent image? It made tenative sense when dragons were innate spellcasters, so sorcerer was considered an extension of that, but since 5e dropped that bit about dragons, it feels weird. At least to me.

Warlocks have this problem less given fiends and fey are pretty flexible, and the easy power vibe is carried well by the unique spellcasting system, which gives the class some unity. But there are still weird bits here and there.

[Kane0]

It makes the whole class feel disjointed, like why can a red dragon sorcerer cast spells like water breathing, sleep, or silent image? It made tenative sense when dragons were innate spellcasters, so sorcerer was considered an extension of that, but since 5e dropped that bit about dragons, it feels weird. At least to me.

Its sort of still there, if you use the optional spellcasting dragons

[Bane's Wolf]

Enchantment / Illusion can be one school, a lot of fantasy mix them already.

Divination and Abjuration can fit together, they are both very utility based.

1/2 of conjuration is about blowing stuff up with elemental magic, Evocation has the same end effect.

Evocation has had healing spells, conjuration has had healing spells, and necromancy has had healing spells... Slap conjuration and necromancy under evocation.

You can slap a few Abjuration spells under Transmutation easily enough.


===

Have the 4 schools be Abjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, and Transmutation.

You get to pick two schools to cast from.

This could be an elegant solution. I've also been seeing the discussions on Magic Spheres which could also work, if they spend enough time balancing out the schools (or Spheres)

Unfortunately, the DnD Schools of Magic is one of our "sacred cows". It's been in the game so long that grognards like me have become attached to them and feel very uncomfortable about losing them. (similar to the six ability scores, but i'm getting over my attachment slowly... )


The problem is that the Schools are likely not going anywhere. Past editions let you specialize in one school, but that lost you access to another school (usually illusion or divination, because the schools are not balanced)
The truth is that the schools are mostly arbitrary as a gameplay mechanic. They could remove them from the game and just call them spells and the game would play almost exactly the same. But i would miss it...

The 8 Schools also add to the academic feel of the wizard. Its part of the wizard's identity as a "magic scientist/scholar". And i would hate to lose that flavour.
The wizard is the only one who cares about the different schools.
Technically, every sorcerer and cleric's spells also fall into schools, but they don't give a damn. And they ignore the wizard trying to explain to them how the revivify spell they just cast is technically of the necromancy school.

I figure that if we are that if we going to keep the schools (and i am open to dumping them, in spite of my biases. maybe...), let the school specialization have a smaller effect, or a series of ribbon abilities, to add to the flavour, while the wizard subclass becomes the real meat of a character's playstyle.

[Kane0]

The 8 Schools also add to the academic feel of the wizard. Its part of the wizard's identity as a "magic scientist/scholar". And i would hate to lose that flavour.
The wizard is the only one who cares about the different schools.

True, if only Wizards really care about spell schools perhaps dont bother labelling them all in the first place (in each description). Move the classifications to the wizard feature that deals with spell schools.

[Bane's Wolf]

True, if only Wizards really care about spell schools perhaps dont bother labelling them all in the first place (in each description). Move the classifications to the wizard feature that deals with spell schools.

Honestly, Yeah

Let the wizards sort their spells into schools.
And let the druids sort their spells into circles (plant, animal, fire, water, earth, air)
And the clerics sort into light magic, dark magic, grey magic (or similar holy and unholy classifications)

I think it would add a lot of cool flavour. I just might do this myself. I've been worldbuilding for a new campaign

--------------

In all honesty, I like the spell schools, and I like putting things into nice ordered boxes.
I like when everything has a classification that can then be used to apply to the world.

I also really like the new Arcane, Divine and Primal "types" of magic. - helps fit things into boxes

example:
Bards are arcane casters who use only Illusion and Enchantment schools.
Eldritch Knights are arcane casters who use Evocation and Abjuration.
Rangers use Primal magic from (insert School, Sphere, or whatever here)

It kinda bugs me when a bard or warlock (arcane casters) get special spells just for being their class (viscous mockery, eldritch blast), without some kind of explanation
(Bard is just special?)(eldritch blast is not a spell. It is an ability of the warlock's patron, given to the warlock).
I realise that the distinction is arbitrary. Eldritch Blast is effectively a warlock ability, same with viscous mockery.

I can recognize that just because i like a thing, doesn't make the thing Important.
Technically, we haven't had "arcane" or "divine" spells for all of 5th edition, only Class spell lists.
I could live with class spell lists, like we've had till now.
I could live with dumping the spell schools altogether.

Mostly i'm just enjoying the idea of two bladesingers having a fight over who's school is better ("your Evocation is strong, but you will never get past my Abjuration defense" )

[KorvinStarmast]

Indeed, but chances are it's not going to happen, at least not this time around. You could however do the expanded-spells-from-subclass thing, but supercharge it in the case of wizards. For example instead of two of spell levels 1-5, wizard subclasses add four of spell levels 1-5 and two of spell levels 6-9 (added to your spell list like a warlock, not as free preparations like... everyone else). BUT that would necessitate cutting down on the generic Arcane spell list reasonably hard.

Or go back to basics and see how many spells need to be converted to ritual spells. (all summoning spells, for example ..) And wish.

But a wizard can, by virtue of his spell list alone, do 90% of the job of anyone else except in a few specific areas. And even in those areas...a 1 level dip into cleric fixes the whole issue.

Gee, where have we seen this before. And you let it happen. (Steel Wind Strike needs to come off of the wizard's list and be only available to Rangers...that's one way to approach it.

So, would you have the same complaint with the divine soul sorcerer?

No, because they can't access the whole list by finding scrolls and putting them in the book to where they can prepare them every time. They have to make choices and assess opportunity costs. [/quote] Warlocks have this problem less given fiends and fey are pretty flexible, and the easy power vibe is carried well by the unique spellcasting system, which gives the class some unity. [/QUOTE] Yes. The only problem with Warlock is hexblade.

The truth is that the schools are mostly arbitrary as a gameplay mechanic.

Yes. And that has to do with the bloat and the decision not to balance them.

...scientist/scholar". And i would hate to lose that flavour.

That flavor is at odds with what a D&D wizard / Magic User for us grognards, actually is. A D&D adventuring wizard is not a scientist nor a scholar. The adventuring wizard is out in the field. The only time they can do scientist / scholar is during down time.

Technically, every sorcerer and cleric's spells also fall into schools, but they don't give a damn.

See also bards.

while the wizard subclass becomes the real meat of a character's playstyle.

Best two examples I can come up with are War Wizard and Bladesinger.

[Bane's Wolf]

Or go back to basics and see how many spells need to be converted to ritual spells. (all summoning spells, for example ..) And wish.

Absolutely agreed. We need more rituals, and a bunch of current spells work as rituals.
Back in 3rd ed, my GM had a house rule allowing wizards to cast any spell out of his/her spellbook, without using a spell slot, but with a casting time of 1 hour.
It seemed to work just fine...

Yes. And that has to do with the bloat and the decision not to balance them.

In their defense, its difficult to balance the "I bend the elements to my will!" school with the "Smoke and mirrors" school

That flavor is at odds with what a D&D wizard / Magic User for us grognards, actually is. A D&D adventuring wizard is not a scientist nor a scholar. The adventuring wizard is out in the field. The only time they can do scientist / scholar is during down time.

That is a good point...
I'm perhaps thinking of wizards a bit more like an Indiana Jones type. A scholarly adventurer.
Then again, Indy was a terrible archaeologist...

See also bards.

100% agreed. Music School is no-where to be found in the wizard curriculum.

Best two examples I can come up with are War Wizard and Bladesinger.

Same...
I actually had to look up to check the official subclasses. Along with Warmage and Bladesinger, we have "Order of Scribes" wizard.
Strangely, i was convinced there were a ton of them, but once you remove the magic school classes, wizards are perhaps a bit lacking in cool subclasses...

[Amechra]

Then again, Indy was a terrible archaeologist...

I work with some people who are archaeologists by training, and bringing up Professor Jones is a great way to agitate them.

...

If you want to understand why the Wizard (and spell schools) are the mess that they are today, we have to indulge in a history lesson.

If you look at the core classes for 2e, they implicitly told you that there were two types of magic in the D&D world — you had learned, scholarly magic (Int-based, needed a spellbook, used by Bards (Cugel-style) and Magic-Users) and priestly magic granted by higher powers (Clerics, Druids, and Paladins, and Rangers). Sure, supplements added new kinds of magic, but that magic was almost always setting-specific. More importantly, though, both kinds of magic had completely different ontologies — scholarly magic was organized into the eight schools, while priestly magic was organized by the spheres of influence of the deities that could grant it. If a Priest spell didn't have a Magic-User equivalent, it didn't have a spell school because it fell outside of the wizardly system.

When we hit 3e, however, we ended up with 5-7 different kinds of spellcasters, depending on how much you want to lump stuff together. Since it wouldn't make sense design-wise to write up that many lists separately, we instead got one big, centralized list that everything pulled from... and the designers decided that every spell should have a spell school, even if the Wizard couldn't learn that spell. This seemingly minor decision had a ton of ramifications — the big one being that Wizards were suddenly "more correct" about how spellcasting worked than anyone else. Heck, most of the spells that people argue about only have schools because of this decision!

Spell schools went from "this is how this one type of spellcaster organizes their spells, with other magic being foreign to them" to "this is the One True Way of organizing spells — anyone who organizes them differently is just plain wrong, and we have the mechanics to prove it". At the same time, the Wizard's whole "I am the master of magic~" schtick has had a ton of scope creep, thanks to them having to be "better at magic" than the Sorcerer (and later the Bard and the Warlock), rather than just the half-caster-y 2e Bard.

---

Radical idea (which will get me pilloried by the forums, no doubt): replace the Wizard with a (non-magical!) Expert class called the Scholar... and then make Wizard magic something that anyone can do, with Scholars being the best at it (in the same way that the Fighter is theoretically "the best" at fighting).

A very rough spitball of how this could work:

• Spellbooks are scroll holders that let you bundle... let's say three scrolls together.
• 1/day, you can cast a spell off of a scroll in a spellbook without destroying the scroll. If you're attuned to the spellbook, you can cast each of the spells once before the book has to recharge.
• Scholars get class features that make them great at mundane scholar-y stuff (how appropriate), but also get features that let them make better use of scrolls/spellbooks, kinda like how Artificers gradually get more attunement slots.
• For obvious reasons, Scholars would get a spellbook filled with a few Common scrolls as part of their starting gear.

Spoiler: Dumb Idea To Make Sorcerers More Distinct

Show

Sorcerers are Artificer-style half-casters... but you double the level of all of their spell slots. A 6th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level spell slots and 2 4th level spell slots. A 17th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level slots, 3 4th level slots, 3 6th level slots, 3 8th level slots, and 1 10th level slot. The features they get at 3rd/7th/11th/15th are based around being able to apply a hilarious amount of brute force when faced with problems. Finesse? That's for other people.

As for how this would work with multiclassing... that's a very good question.

[Arkhios]

Spoiler: Dumb Idea To Make Sorcerers More Distinct

Show

Sorcerers are Artificer-style half-casters... but you double the level of all of their spell slots. A 6th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level spell slots and 2 4th level spell slots. A 17th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level slots, 3 4th level slots, 3 6th level slots, 3 8th level slots, and 1 10th level slot. The features they get at 3rd/7th/11th/15th are based around being able to apply a hilarious amount of brute force when faced with problems. Finesse? That's for other people.

As for how this would work with multiclassing... that's a very good question.

Spoiler: Not So Much Dumb But Interesting Idea Taken Further

Show

I would change the wording to: "Each spell slot, up to 5th level, that you expend to cast a spell from the Sorcerer spell list counts twice as high level (up to 10th level)."

[Bane's Wolf]

If you want to understand why the Wizard (and spell schools) are the mess that they are today, we have to indulge in a history lesson.

If you look at the core classes for 2e, they implicitly told you that there were two types of magic in the D&D world — you had learned, scholarly magic (Int-based, needed a spellbook, used by Bards (Cugel-style) and Magic-Users) and priestly magic granted by higher powers (Clerics, Druids, and Paladins, and Rangers). Sure, supplements added new kinds of magic, but that magic was almost always setting-specific. More importantly, though, both kinds of magic had completely different ontologies — scholarly magic was organized into the eight schools, while priestly magic was organized by the spheres of influence of the deities that could grant it. If a Priest spell didn't have a Magic-User equivalent, it didn't have a spell school because it fell outside of the wizardly system.

Wow - i have only the vaguest of memories of 2e, and this is bringing some of it back. The spheres were pretty cool.

When we hit 3e, however, we ended up with 5-7 different kinds of spellcasters, depending on how much you want to lump stuff together. Since it wouldn't make sense design-wise to write up that many lists separately, we instead got one big, centralized list that everything pulled from... and the designers decided that every spell should have a spell school, even if the Wizard couldn't learn that spell. This seemingly minor decision had a ton of ramifications — the big one being that Wizards were suddenly "more correct" about how spellcasting worked than anyone else. Heck, most of the spells that people argue about only have schools because of this decision!

Spell schools went from "this is how this one type of spellcaster organizes their spells, with other magic being foreign to them" to "this is the One True Way of organizing spells — anyone who organizes them differently is just plain wrong, and we have the mechanics to prove it". At the same time, the Wizard's whole "I am the master of magic~" schtick has had a ton of scope creep, thanks to them having to be "better at magic" than the Sorcerer (and later the Bard and the Warlock), rather than just the half-caster-y 2e Bard.

Yeah... This makes a lot of sense.
And now its a legacy Sacred Cow of DnD... which i kinda like...

I agree that it's a mess, but its a very flavourful mess.
The 8 dumb spell schools that make no sense but we've become attached to, to the point of going to war for it

---

Radical idea (which will get me pilloried by the forums, no doubt): replace the Wizard with a (non-magical!) Expert class called the Scholar... and then make Wizard magic something that anyone can do, with Scholars being the best at it (in the same way that the Fighter is theoretically "the best" at fighting).

A very rough spitball of how this could work:

• Spellbooks are scroll holders that let you bundle... let's say three scrolls together.
• 1/day, you can cast a spell off of a scroll in a spellbook without destroying the scroll. If you're attuned to the spellbook, you can cast each of the spells once before the book has to recharge.
• Scholars get class features that make them great at mundane scholar-y stuff (how appropriate), but also get features that let them make better use of scrolls/spellbooks, kinda like how Artificers gradually get more attunement slots.
• For obvious reasons, Scholars would get a spellbook filled with a few Common scrolls as part of their starting gear.

Sorcerers are Artificer-style half-casters... but you double the level of all of their spell slots. A 6th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level spell slots and 2 4th level spell slots. A 17th level Sorcerer would have 4 2nd level slots, 3 4th level slots, 3 6th level slots, 3 8th level slots, and 1 10th level slot. The features they get at 3rd/7th/11th/15th are based around being able to apply a hilarious amount of brute force when faced with problems. Finesse? That's for other people.

Perhaps too Radical an idea for OneDnD, because its way too different from current mechanics, but it does beautifully sum up the "feel" the casters:

- Very scholarly wizard with his book, and his expertise in Spellcraft.
- Sorcerer which is raw, barely contained Power.

I would love to see something like this in dnd

[KorvinStarmast]

Wow - i have only the vaguest of memories of 2e, and this is bringing some of it back. The spheres were pretty cool.

The schools were originally added by EGG for AD&D 1e, but I won't say that a great deal of thought went into it. It was just one more thing that was a good idea (or seemed so at the time) along with spelling out the components (based on sympathetic magic theory ~ like empowers like).

The 8 dumb spell schools that make no sense but we've become attached to, to the point of going to war for it

I'd like to see them revised and scrubbed.

- Very scholarly wizard with his book, and his expertise in Spellcraft.
- Sorcerer which is raw, barely contained Power.

You've got the Original D&D Magic User in point 1, and something like the Wild Magic Sorcerer in point 2.

[Bane's Wolf]

I'd like to see them revised and scrubbed.

I can't blame you. They are rather arbitrary

I would understand if they dumped them for a more sensible system, especially in a new interesting setting.

But the dumb schools just feel like DnD to me at this point.
Wizards without their schools just wouldn't feel right, in a standard (if there is such a thing...) DnD setting.

The schools were originally added by EGG for AD&D 1e, but I won't say that a great deal of thought went into it.

I think that is possibly one of the great problems/joys with DnD. It is a horrible mish-mash of every conceivable fantasy setting and trope, monsters from every possible mythology and setting.
And none of it was planned in a cohesive way...
Some settings are better at it than others, but it is a beautiful mess that just "feels" like DnD.

I think i have some difficulty looking at my own sacred cows objectively. Some thing i just like because i like them

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that is possibly one of the great problems/joys with DnD. It is a horrible mish-mash of every conceivable fantasy setting and trope, monsters from every possible mythology and setting.

And some SF got thrown in. The SF&F nerd/geek community that eventually came up with D&D in their various play in the 60's and 70's were Sci Fi and Fantasy fans. That fusion has been in the game a long time. (A great example of this was D Arneson's adventure in the Blackmoor Supplement; Temple of the Frog. One of these days, I am going to run this in 5e...)
[quote0 Some settings are better at it than others, but it is a beautiful mess that just "feels" like DnD[/quote] To be fair, I think that Moldvay Basic and B/X and BECMMI were very well cleaned up. Nicely done, and not quite the mess that certain other versions were.

I think i have some difficulty looking at my own sacred cows objectively. Some thing i just like because i like them

Perhaps in the same way that I like kender roasting on an open fire ...

[Rafaelfras]

If you want to understand why the Wizard (and spell schools) are the mess that they are today, we have to indulge in a history lesson.

If you look at the core classes for 2e, they implicitly told you that there were two types of magic in the D&D world — you had learned, scholarly magic (Int-based, needed a spellbook, used by Bards (Cugel-style) and Magic-Users) and priestly magic granted by higher powers (Clerics, Druids, and Paladins, and Rangers). Sure, supplements added new kinds of magic, but that magic was almost always setting-specific. More importantly, though, both kinds of magic had completely different ontologies — scholarly magic was organized into the eight schools, while priestly magic was organized by the spheres of influence of the deities that could grant it. If a Priest spell didn't have a Magic-User equivalent, it didn't have a spell school because it fell outside of the wizardly system.

When we hit 3e, however, we ended up with 5-7 different kinds of spellcasters, depending on how much you want to lump stuff together. Since it wouldn't make sense design-wise to write up that many lists separately, we instead got one big, centralized list that everything pulled from... and the designers decided that every spell should have a spell school, even if the Wizard couldn't learn that spell. This seemingly minor decision had a ton of ramifications — the big one being that Wizards were suddenly "more correct" about how spellcasting worked than anyone else. Heck, most of the spells that people argue about only have schools because of this decision!

Spell schools went from "this is how this one type of spellcaster organizes their spells, with other magic being foreign to them" to "this is the One True Way of organizing spells — anyone who organizes them differently is just plain wrong, and we have the mechanics to prove it". At the same time, the Wizard's whole "I am the master of magic~" schtick has had a ton of scope creep, thanks to them having to be "better at magic" than the Sorcerer (and later the Bard and the Warlock), rather than just the half-caster-y 2e Bard.

Remember that 3rd edition also had feats and class features that afected spell schools. So clerics and druids could take then. You had spell focus and greater spell focus that raised DC from a specifc school you had prestige classes that gave bonus to specific schools. So not only schools became the standart for every spellcaster but it also became part of the system reiforced in a lot of areas of the game and important to every spellcasting class who wished to raise the effectvness of the spells it casted more often or as pre-requisite to prestige classes.

I can't blame you. They are rather arbitrary

I would understand if they dumped them for a more sensible system, especially in a new interesting setting.

But the dumb schools just feel like DnD to me at this point.
Wizards without their schools just wouldn't feel right, in a standard (if there is such a thing...) DnD setting.




I think that is possibly one of the great problems/joys with DnD. It is a horrible mish-mash of every conceivable fantasy setting and trope, monsters from every possible mythology and setting.
And none of it was planned in a cohesive way...
Some settings are better at it than others, but it is a beautiful mess that just "feels" like DnD.

I think i have some difficulty looking at my own sacred cows objectively. Some thing i just like because i like them

I like the schools and dont think they are that arbitrary. I think there are a lot of spells arbitrarily tossed in then, but their themes are not arbitrary. And in 3rd edition we had spells that didnt fit in any of then as universal like wish, so they realy though about these themes back then.

Perhaps too Radical an idea for OneDnD, because its way too different from current mechanics, but it does beautifully sum up the "feel" the casters:

- Very scholarly wizard with his book, and his expertise in Spellcraft.
- Sorcerer which is raw, barely contained Power.

I would love to see something like this in dnd

I like this distinction too. But spell books stay in the bag. I dont want to have to cast spells with an enormous book in my hand all the time. Wizards worth their staff dont do that we have high int and good memory for a reason

[Amechra]

Remember that 3rd edition also had feats and class features that afected spell schools. So clerics and druids could take then. You had spell focus and greater spell focus that raised DC from a specifc school you had prestige classes that gave bonus to specific schools. So not only schools became the standart for every spellcaster but it also became part of the system reiforced in a lot of areas of the game and important to every spellcasting class who wished to raise the effectvness of the spells it casted more often or as pre-requisite to prestige classes.

That's... I mention that in my post? That's what I meant by Wizards being correct about how Magic worked, with there being mechanics to back up that assertion.

The thing is that the schools make sense as categories for Wizard Magic, but they don't entirely make sense for non-wizard-y magic. Look at how no-one can precisely agree on where to sort healing magic — you can make valid cases for it being Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation, depending on what the spell "does" in the fiction. This didn't really matter before 3e because, hey, the Wizards can assign it anywhere they want because it's really just part of the Healing/Life/whatever-it-was-called Sphere, and those nerds can argue over how to categorize a literal divine miracle until the cows come home.

I like this distinction too. But spell books stay in the bag. I dont want to have to cast spells with an enormous book in my hand all the time. Wizards worth their staff dont do that we have high int and good memory for a reason

Nope! The book stays out. It's literally the set of notes that you wrote to help you remember stuff. Smart people use all of the tools at their disposal, after all.

More seriously, that's the kind of attitude that works fine if all you're casting is quick evocation spells or whatever, but it really doesn't if you're doing something like, say, conjuring up a Fiend, where the consequences for not dotting your t's and crossing your i's can be catastrophic.

(Personally, this argument also reminds me of the wildly self-indulgent (and incredibly tiresome) Isekai trope where the main character ends up in a new fantasy world (or the past) and revolutionizes the place because they're Very Smart — so smart, in fact, that they understand all of the jokes in Rick and Morty. This kind of argument only works if you fetishize intelligence more than, say, Wisdom or Strength or whatever).

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's... I mention that in my post? That's what I meant by Wizards being correct about how Magic worked, with there being mechanics to back up that assertion.

The thing is that the schools make sense as categories for Wizard Magic, but they don't entirely make sense for non-wizard-y magic. Look at how no-one can precisely agree on where to sort healing magic — you can make valid cases for it being Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation, depending on what the spell "does" in the fiction. This didn't really matter before 3e because, hey, the Wizards can assign it anywhere they want because it's really just part of the Healing/Life/whatever-it-was-called Sphere, and those nerds can argue over how to categorize a literal divine miracle until the cows come home.


Nope! The book stays out. It's literally the set of notes that you wrote to help you remember stuff. Smart people use all of the tools at their disposal, after all.

More seriously, that's the kind of attitude that works fine if all you're casting is quick evocation spells or whatever, but it really doesn't if you're doing something like, say, conjuring up a Fiend, where the consequences for not dotting your t's and crossing your i's can be catastrophic.

(Personally, this argument also reminds me of the wildly self-indulgent (and incredibly tiresome) Isekai trope where the main character ends up in a new fantasy world (or the past) and revolutionizes the place because they're Very Smart — so smart, in fact, that they understand all of the jokes in Rick and Morty. This kind of argument only works if you fetishize intelligence more than, say, Wisdom or Strength or whatever).

Very strong agreement with all of this. Especially that parenthetical at the end. "I'm soooo smart, so I can do whatever I want, because SMART!". Seriously, being smart is not a superpower. I understand the desire for nerds to get back at the jocks that abused them in high school and those people who rejected and mocked them, but really, doing it this way is kinda sad.

[stoutstien]

Very strong agreement with all of this. Especially that parenthetical at the end. "I'm soooo smart, so I can do whatever I want, because SMART!". Seriously, being smart is not a superpower. I understand the desire for nerds to get back at the jocks that abused them in high school and those people who rejected and mocked them, but really, doing it this way is kinda sad.

Even worse

while intelligence does effect spell attack/save DCs and spells prepared count it has little to do with wizards, and to a larger extent magic, beyond that. It's an arbitrary layer on top of an arbitrary layer.

It's wholely a mechanical function with no (in game) world logic. Leaned/self acquired vs given/borrowed magic is a cluster if you give it more than a passing glance.

[OvisCaedo]

(Personally, this argument also reminds me of the wildly self-indulgent (and incredibly tiresome) Isekai trope where the main character ends up in a new fantasy world (or the past) and revolutionizes the place because they're Very Smart — so smart, in fact, that they understand all of the jokes in Rick and Morty. This kind of argument only works if you fetishize intelligence more than, say, Wisdom or Strength or whatever).

It's funny, that tends to be exactly how I feel about charisma characters and their proponents!

[Kane0]

Taking suggestions on alternative spell schools!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Taking suggestions on alternative spell schools!

I don't like the idea of spell schools itself. Spells don't have schools. Wizards create schools of thought/practice to study/learn spells. And as such, they should be more like schools/styles of wizardry. You might be a wizard of the Flowing Winds school, which teaches magic through the medium of dance-like motion, leading to defensive benefits (better at dodging!) but being hindered by restraints. Or a devotee of the Iron Mind school, which practices total control over self, which removes some of the constraints (ie components) at the cost of a limited repertoire that can be learned that way. Etc.

The spells themselves are black boxes, universal API structures. Any categorization is entirely for the sake of mortals, not inherent in the system.

[Rafaelfras]

That's... I mention that in my post? That's what I meant by Wizards being correct about how Magic worked, with there being mechanics to back up that assertion.

The thing is that the schools make sense as categories for Wizard Magic, but they don't entirely make sense for non-wizard-y magic. Look at how no-one can precisely agree on where to sort healing magic — you can make valid cases for it being Conjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, or Transmutation, depending on what the spell "does" in the fiction. This didn't really matter before 3e because, hey, the Wizards can assign it anywhere they want because it's really just part of the Healing/Life/whatever-it-was-called Sphere, and those nerds can argue over how to categorize a literal divine miracle until the cows come home.

Cool we are on the same page here I just brough up more things that validate your argument. I also agree toltaly that we souldnt categorize litral miracles. Its a trend to try to make everything folllowing the same set of rules but I really do think that make Arcane magic and Divine magic difference greater would be good for the game the spheres of influence is a good way to do that.

Nope! The book stays out. It's literally the set of notes that you wrote to help you remember stuff. Smart people use all of the tools at their disposal, after all.

Yes so you remember the words of a fireball and dont have to be carrying a giant book while an orc try to cut off your head during a combat.

More seriously, that's the kind of attitude that works fine if all you're casting is quick evocation spells or whatever, but it really doesn't if you're doing something like, say, conjuring up a Fiend, where the consequences for not dotting your t's and crossing your i's can be catastrophic.

(Personally, this argument also reminds me of the wildly self-indulgent (and incredibly tiresome) Isekai trope where the main character ends up in a new fantasy world (or the past) and revolutionizes the place because they're Very Smart — so smart, in fact, that they understand all of the jokes in Rick and Morty. This kind of argument only works if you fetishize intelligence more than, say, Wisdom or Strength or whatever).

With that I toltaly agree I dont fetichize Int, I dont want to be so very smart, I want to be able to remember some quick spells and be able to defend myself with my magic and dont be a burden to the party during a heated crownded and caotic situation where I will not be able to hold a giant book and read while things try to kill me, poke my book cut my arm etc...

Now during a ritual? Yes the book should be required to be there, so you can see the long chant that you cant misspronouce, the precise diagrams that you must drawn and where to place the material components on. On that situation, yes you need your book.
We can and should have both because that is a good representation of a wizard.

We can have this


And this

Very strong agreement with all of this. Especially that parenthetical at the end. "I'm soooo smart, so I can do whatever I want, because SMART!". Seriously, being smart is not a superpower. I understand the desire for nerds to get back at the jocks that abused them in high school and those people who rejected and mocked them, but really, doing it this way is kinda sad.

Wizard is a class like any other. Its main atribute wich is inteligence should give them the power to operate as stregth or dexterity does for a fighter. Nothing more nothing less. Inteligence let a wizard cast his spells, his class abilities and thats it

Even worse

while intelligence does effect spell attack/save DCs and spells prepared count it has little to do with wizards, and to a larger extent magic, beyond that. It's an arbitrary layer on top of an arbitrary layer.

It's wholely a mechanical function with no (in game) world logic. Leaned/self acquired vs given/borrowed magic is a cluster if you give it more than a passing glance.

How so? The mechanical representation of it is what it has to do with wizards and magic. You study magic through your life. Your understanding of magic and how deep you can go with that knowldge will grant you deeper secrets more power and a beter grasp of its manipulation (+ spell attack + spell DC ) and as Int in game mesure memory more Int gives more spells prepared.
Its not arbitrary, at all. The power comes from study, understanding, memorization all that Int as a stat encompass.

Back in 3rd you had to have an Int = 10+spell level to even understand and being able to cast a spell of that level

[stoutstien]

How so? The mechanical representation of it is what it has to do with wizards and magic. You study magic through your life. Your understanding of magic and how deep you can go with that knowldge will grant you deeper secrets more power and a beter grasp of its manipulation (+ spell attack + spell DC ) and as Int in game mesure memory more Int gives more spells prepared.
Its not arbitrary, at all. The power comes from study, understanding, memorization all that Int as a stat encompass.

Back in 3rd you had to have an Int = 10+spell level to even understand and being able to cast a spell of that level

It's ALL mechanical but it has no representation because it stops skin deep because magic also stops there. Being a high level wizard or having a high intelligence does nothing you can actually choose. The class and spell rules are all explicit prepackaged features.

[Rafaelfras]

It's ALL mechanical but it has no representation because it stops skin deep because magic also stops there. Being a high level wizard or having a high intelligence does nothing you can actually choose. The class and spell rules are all explicit prepackaged features.

I don't think I agree with this, but I also don't think I got what you mean.
How would you fix this? How magic and intelligence would represent what you want? What need to change ?

[stoutstien]

I don't think I agree with this, but I also don't think I got what you mean.
How would you fix this? How magic and intelligence would represent what you want? What need to change ?

Make it consistent first off. What makes Divine smite different from smite<spell>? What makes a dragon magical but it's breath weapon not? What makes the wizard's magic different from a sorcerer or warlock besides the governing abilities?

[Rafaelfras]

Make it consistent first off. What makes Divine smite different from smite<spell>?

One is a proper spell, a specific effect called upon using components (V, S) the other is conversion of their energy, their mana (spell slots) into damaging energy conducted through their weapon. And paladins are very uncreative people.

What makes a dragon magical but it's breath weapon not?

The extraordinary, supernatural and similar to spell where useful and should have stayed.
I had this exact same argument in my last session fighting against our BBEG dragon, when a player wanted to use antimagic shell, so yeah I agree.

What makes the wizard's magic different from a sorcerer or warlock besides the governing abilities?

Nothing, it's the same magic, its arcane magic. The way they got to it is different but they must operate by the same principles.
Wizard learn how to do it studying the methods formulas and spells over the years. Sorcerers are born with the ability to do it, they have an natural ability to do magic and the spells they learn is how they control it to get the desired effect. Warlocks get the knowledge through a bargain. A pact that grant then the ability and knowledge to cast arcane magic.
Wizard was first introduced as the magic user on 1st Ed, so until sorcerers came around all arcane magic was governed by Intelligence. It's themes lore and fantasy where very well established. Any inconsistency latter was because the lack of care given to the sorcerer and later the warlock. That's why through this thread me and others have argued that the wizard is not the one that need to be fixed thematically or worse removed if removing a class was something that would happen ( it will not. All the PHB classe will be in OD&D).