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    Default Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Greetings!

    It's been a while since I played 5e, and for this next table I've been invited to, I've been dealing with the concept of a Silver Draconic Sorcerer, for many reasons.

    Given that Draconic isn't the greatest subclass, especially at lower levels, what is the best way to optimize a guy like this?

    I'm thinking of Twinned and Quickened spell, for obvious reasons, but those can change.
    What would be the best spells to pair with these metas? What else can be done? What short multiclass would be good at higher levels (6+)?

    Thanks in advance.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    For 1st level there aren't that many great twinned options. But 2nd level spells I think Dragon's Breath is a good option, especially if you or anyone has a pet.

    Levitate is also a decent twin option, it would let you basically neutralize two melee only enemies. Phantasmal force has a similar benefit. Also Suggestion.

    At 3rd level spells you want to have access to Transmute spell so you can turn your fireball into a coldball and add your charisma mod to the damage. (you can replace one meta-magic option at level 4, I would drop quickened, or better yet just take meta-magic adept).
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    It's been a while since I played 5e, and for this next table I've been invited to, I've been dealing with the concept of a Silver Draconic Sorcerer, for many reasons.
    If you are doing point buy, I'd suggest something like this to start.
    S 8 (+2) D 14 C 14 I 10 W 10 CH 15 (+1).
    Your AC will be 15, which is good enough.
    Your HP will be 9 to start, and you'll add 7 HP per level if you use average. At level 4 you will have 30 HP.

    The Draconic sorcerer in the game I DM uses mostly Twinned and Heightened.

    The mix of spells between offensive and control is where the fun begins. So many choices, so few spells known.

    For offensive cantrips: I suggest Firebolt and Shocking grasp. Why the latter? if someone gets too close to you, you can attack and if you hit you can withdraw without them getting an OA. Handy.
    Utility: Minor Illusion is a nice utility spell that can be useful in a lot of combat and RP situations. It's flexibility is one of its greatest strengths. After that, I'd need to know your campaign's set up to recommend a 4th.

    IIRC, Starting First Level Spells.
    I'd go with Shield and one offensive spell that you like.
    There are so many, pick one.
    Chaos Bolt, Magic Missile, and Chromatic Orb all have seems to be a favorite, but I think Chromatic Orb (upside is damage type that is selectable, but you have to hit with the attack) while Magic Missile is Auto Hit force damage.
    Pick whichever one strikes your fancy.

    Control Spells. This is a never ending source of overthinking for people like me when Spells Known limitations come up.
    I always advocate for Fog Cloud (1). Blindness/Deafness can be twinned (2). Web is nice to slow down what's in an area (2). Slow is a great debuff (3). By the time you get to level 7 and are looking at level 4 spells, Evards Black tentacles is OK in a dungeon, not so much outdoors.

    I'd not look much further than level 7 if you are starting at level 1, since you will play with your group and begin to see where you need to contribute based on who the other PCs are.

    I'd suggest Half elf or vHuman for your origin/race, but that's up to you.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-01-27 at 10:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    I'm thinking of Twinned and Quickened spell, for obvious reasons, but those can change.
    Transmuted Spell is a must-have metamagic for Draconic Sorcerers:

    Transmuted Spell
    When you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder.


    You can now switch any elemental damage spell to match your Silver Dragon cold element and receive the Elemental Affinity damage boost, basically spending 1 Sorcery Point for a +5 damage boost against each affected target.

    That means your cold-aligned Sorcerer can now cast Coldball, Cold Bolt, Chain Coldning, Coldwave, Wall of Cold, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    What short multiclass would be good at higher levels (6+)?
    Cleric 1 gets you some additional 1st level spells and cantrips, Medium or Heavy Armor and Shield proficiency, and some handy 1st level subclass abilities, plus doesn't slow down your spell slot progression. This is a good idea for a caster-focused Sorcerer who just wants a better AC from armor/shield proficiency.

    If you're also wanting some melee capability as a "gish", Hexblade 1 gets you a Short Rest recharging 1st level spell slot, Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, a couple additional cantrips and 1st level spells known, Hexblade's Curse, and the ability to be an effective melee backup with CHA-based weapon attacks combined with a SCAGtrip like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, plus Quickening BB/GFB for times when you want a second melee attack in a turn. But it doesn't give you any higher level spell slots, since Pact Magic and Spellcasting don't stack for spell slot progression.

    Another good multiclass dip for a gishy Sorcerer is Paladin 2, which gets you Medium Armor and Shield proficiency, plus the ability to turn spell slots into Smites, and Paladins are half-casters to continue scaling your spellcasting slots, so it only puts you 1 level behind in spell slot progression (although 2 levels behind in known spell progression). If you have a decent STR/DEX (16ish), a Paladin 2/Sorcerer X can be an effective melee combatant when needed, wading in with BB/GFB + Quickened BB/GFB for two Smiting SCAGtrip attacks in a round, dealing a good amount of melee damage in exchange for burning spell slots and sorcery points at a relatively high rate. The downside is the 13 STR multiclass requirement for Paladin, which makes you more MAD than a Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X, and which could be hard to pull off while also having a good CHA, DEX, and CON. But it's doable if you roll well for stats, or go with something like this using Point Buy:
    Half Elf Draconic Sorcerer 5 -> Paladin 2 -> Sorcerer X
    13 STR
    15+1 DEX
    12+2 CON,
    8 INT
    8 WIS
    15+1 CHA
    The +3 DEXMOD combined with Draconic Resilience means you'll have a 16 AC for levels 1-5 before gaining Medium Armor and Shield proficiency to boost that up to AC 19, which combined with your Sorcerer CON save proficiency and +1 HP/level from Draconic Resilience means you've got decent survivability. And once you dip into Paladin, a 16 DEX is enough to allow you to be a passable melee backup with Smiting BB/GFB Rapier attacks, so you can focus your ASIs on maxing out your CHA and taking Warcaster or other feats that interest you.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-27 at 10:59 AM.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    If you are looking at multiclass options then 2 levels of hexblade would be among the better options.
    The Agonizing blast invocation adds your charisma mod to the eldritch blast cantrip. The cantrip scales with level and in cases where you just want to do single target damage there is very little in 5e that will do better than Agonizing blast + quickened Agonizing Blast.

    In addition, you will also get another invocation for fun, 2 first level spell slots that refresh on a short rest, a few more level 1 spells known which adds utility and supplements the scarcity of sorcerer spells. Proficiency with medium armor+shields and martial weapons. The armor and shield proficiency will raise your AC from 13+dex (15 in your case) to a maximum of half-plate + dex + shield = 19 before using the shield spell. In typical encounters that can mean a significant reduction in getting hit at low levels (eg rolling a creature with +5 to hit has a 55% chance to hit AC15 and a 35% chance to hit AC19. The benefits almost make it worth considering taking a level or two sooner rather than later. The downside is that it slows your spell slot progression - so it is a significant trade off.

    One other advantage of a warlock multiclass is that you will have the minimum stats for multiclassing already. Cleric multiclass will need 13 wisdom while the paladin multiclass needs 13 str (in addition to the charisma you already have)

    Other warlock multiclasses can also have some cool benefits and they all offer the Agonizing blast option - e.g. celestial warlock has healing, but it mostly depends on how you imagine the character and what you want to achieve with multiclassing.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Transmuted Spell is a must-have metamagic for Draconic Sorcerers:

    Transmuted Spell
    When you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 sorcery point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: acid, cold, fire, lightning, poison, thunder.


    You can now switch any elemental damage spell to match your Silver Dragon cold element and receive the Elemental Affinity damage boost, basically spending 1 Sorcery Point for a +5 damage boost against each affected target.

    That means your cold-aligned Sorcerer can now cast Coldball, Cold Bolt, Chain Coldning, Coldwave, Wall of Cold, etc.
    I could, but I'm thinking of getting it at level 10, since at low levels I have pretty much all I need (Frostbite, Ice Knife, Binding Ice [which can be upcast]).
    I will have two level 3 spells at most, and as far as I see it would be much better to twin Haste or Fly or Blink than to do damage at those spell levels. The exception would be maybe at level 4, because then it starts to cost a lot in sorcery points to do so.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Draconic isn't horrible. You essentially get mage armor for free, extra HP is good, and the elemental adept bonus is.... well its there. It's not amazing but its there. Personally do NOT recommend transmute spell until high levels. Its very expensive and applies to surprising few good spells. Like okay you turn fireball into ice ball, and rime's binding ice into Raifon's binding acid but is +4 damage really worth an SP? And this only applies to elemental damage spells that have damage rolls that aren't already your element... and you only get to apply to one damage roll no matter what because sorcerers can't have nice things... seems like a waste.

    IMO you want a race that gets you a lot of durability like goliath or shadarkai, then you want a feat like fey touched to add powerful spells to your list. MCing to cleric or hexblade is insane as it is for most classes, but especially here because your main limitation is a lack of known/prepared spells. It does make your draconic skin less relevant (though I would still prefer the dragonskin to medium armor personally - the real upside of the MC is shield proficiency and more spells known.)

    Draconic is AFAIK still one of the leading choices for a sorcadin if you want to go that route.

    Try this:

    Dragonblooded Priest Thuum

    White Dragon Sorcerer. Goliath. Hexblade 1. Careful MM and Empowered MM. Spell selection focused on battlfield control and survivability. (Ray of Frost, Shield, AoA, Rime's Ice, Fear, elemental weapon.) Spend a feat on fey touched for something really efficient and nice like silvery barbs (if you want to power game) or bless. You'll be really tough, completely unafraid of a scrap, and something like Careful Fear can utterly take over an encounter.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Greetings!

    It's been a while since I played 5e, and for this next table I've been invited to, I've been dealing with the concept of a Silver Draconic Sorcerer, for many reasons.

    Given that Draconic isn't the greatest subclass, especially at lower levels, what is the best way to optimize a guy like this?

    I'm thinking of Twinned and Quickened spell, for obvious reasons, but those can change.
    What would be the best spells to pair with these metas? What else can be done? What short multiclass would be good at higher levels (6+)?

    Thanks in advance.
    I actually think Draconic Resilience gets the most bang at lower levels when saving you Mage Armor as a spell known and cast every day makes the most difference.
    My experience playing one was very positive. I played with a couple of other casters, so I could just focus on blasting, and was good at it. I'll throw out a couple of suggestions. Empower is good and cheap enough to use with every mid-higher level slot you get; when you add that to Elemental Affinity your fireballs are closing in on 40 hp of damage. Transmuted wasn't an option when I played, but depending on the campaign I'd be seriously looking at it; I just don't want to be doing 1/2 damage a lot, and the reality is you aren't going to have a huge selection of other spells to turn to if you end up fighting a bunch of resilient enemies. Another thing that wasn't an option when I played was Metamagic Adept, and somewhere along the line I'd be getting this, maybe 4th or 8th level. I don't think Twinned is a need for level 1, so I'd probably pick it up with the feat. Quickened I agree with, and not because you'll get a cantrip attack as well; Dodge, Disengage and Dash as well as a leveled spell can be game changers.
    Draconic Sorc is good, if a little narrow. You're a full caster with effectively Cleric HP and some of the best spells in the game with an ability to make them even better.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Personally do NOT recommend transmute spell until high levels. Its very expensive
    It's a flat 1 SP per casting, regardless of spell level. That's cheap for a Metamagic, compared to some of the others that are 2-3 SP or 1 SP per level. Plus, since there are a decent number of other Cold damage spells, you won't be needing it every time you cast a spell.

    And I'd argue that it's more impactful in Tier 2 when Fireball/Coldball is at the peak of its power. 1 SP for a ~15-18% damage increase for the already overpowered Fireball is nothing to sneeze at, and a pretty good value.

    Therefore, I'd put Transmute in the Top 3 or 4 picks for initial two Metamagic selections for a Draconic Sorcerer, and a slam-dunk must-have if you're taking Metamagic Adept too.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-27 at 01:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    It's a flat 1 SP per casting, regardless of spell level. That's cheap for a Metamagic. Plus, since there are a decent number of other Cold damage spells, you won't be needing it more than a few times per day.

    And I'd argue that it's more impactful in Tier 2 when Fireball/Coldball is at the peak of its power. 1 SP for a ~15-18% damage increase for the Fireball is nothing to sneeze at, and a pretty good value.
    It's okay, but its niche. For example, my white dragon sorc wants to cast ice spells, so they cast Binding Ice. A Red Dragon sorc could cast Binding Ice and transmute it into fire, or they could just cast Scorcher and empower it. Empowered Scorcher will deal more damage for the Red Dragon Sorc than Transmuted Binding Fire will, and regular Scorcher will deal as much as Binding Fire.

    With one, you're making yourself better with a niche category of spells, with the other, you are expanding the list of spells. The actual upside to picking transmute is being able to target elemental damage weaknesses and take advantage of slightly stronger spells (since Binding Ice has a great secondary effect and Scorcher doesn't. It also targets a different if less useful save) But this upside to transmute is more pronounced for sorcs that aren't dragon sorcs.

    Ultimately, a sorcerer has extremely limited spell and MM options and picking up fireball and transmute to spend SP to turn that fireball into an iceball is just insanely large in opportunity cost. At 6th level that's 1/6 SP, 1/7 spells known, 1/2 metamagics, and 1/2 3rd level spell slots. That's a LOT of your character's build resources expended just to have the same damage output a regular red dragon sorc would at the same level without using their SP or MM. Seems to me its better to fixate on other useful 3rd level spells and metamagics, like the fear/careful combo.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2023-01-27 at 12:59 PM.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    It's okay, but its niche. For example, my white dragon sorc wants to cast ice spells, so they cast Binding Ice. A Red Dragon sorc could cast Binding Ice and transmute it into fire, or they could just cast Scorcher and empower it. Empowered Scorcher will deal more damage for the Red Dragon Sorc than Transmuted Binding Fire will, and regular Scorcher will deal as much as Binding Fire.

    With one, you're making yourself better with a niche category of spells, with the other, you are expanding the list of spells. The actual upside to picking transmute is being able to target elemental damage weaknesses and take advantage of slightly stronger spells (since Binding Ice has a great secondary effect and Scorcher doesn't. It also targets a different if less useful save) But this upside to transmute is more pronounced for sorcs that aren't dragon sorcs.

    Ultimately, a sorcerer has extremely limited spell and MM options and picking up fireball and transmute to spend SP to turn that fireball into an iceball is just insanely large in opportunity cost. At 6th level that's 1/6 SP, 1/7 spells known, 1/2 metamagics, and 1/2 3rd level spell slots. That's a LOT of your character's build resources expended just to have the same damage output a regular red dragon sorc would at the same level without using their SP or MM. Seems to me its better to fixate on other useful 3rd level spells and metamagics, like the fear/careful combo.
    I would agree that Transmuted just to turn a spell into your preferred type is probably not worth it unless it's the end of the day and you've got points to blow. Though 4 extra points * a bunch of critters in an AOE is still nothing to sneeze at, while being less than the expected 6 points you'd get from Empowering say a Fireball. Really where it shines is avoiding resistance, or better yet avoiding immunity or targeting vulnerability.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    So what's the coolest thing you can do by level, metamagically speaking?
    Thought of some ideas:

    Level 3: twinned chromatic orb (6d8 max)/twinned Blur
    Level 5: twinned Blink/Fly/Haste
    Level 7: twinned Greater Invisibility/Polymorph

    Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Transmute and Empower can be combined with other metamagic. Metamagic adept gives +2 sorcery points and +2 metamagic options.

    You could just have both and use both. Transmute and empower fireball into coldball. Draconic sorcerer is a good blaster IMO.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    So what's the coolest thing you can do by level, metamagically speaking?
    Thought of some ideas:

    Level 3: twinned chromatic orb (6d8 max)/twinned Blur
    Level 5: twinned Blink/Fly/Haste
    Level 7: twinned Greater Invisibility/Polymorph

    Am I missing something?
    I guess beyond Chromatic Orb they don't lean into your Dragon Sorc feature, so that's part of why I wasn't thinking priortiizing Twinned.

    Your level 3 options: yes twinned is a big bump for those spells; they just aren't spells I'd usually take. I normally use Magic Missile because of the fact it just works and you can use it on multiple foes or to wake sleeping allies, etc.
    Beyond that for higher level spells (including Blur at level 3): yes they're impactful... and expensive. My tendency would be to select Metamagics that I can use more often than ones that nova better. Maybe this is just an indication of expected number of encounters at a given table.

    I'm also not one of those that is in the 'blasting is suboptimal' camp particularly a) in tier 2 and b) if you build around it. I remain unconvinced that at level 6 twinning the spells you mentioned is better than just unloading a 40 hp iceball when you have the ability to do so in many cases. At level 7 Polymorph would likely be better for a single deadly encounter if you can keep your concentration up, but again 4 SP is steep.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    I would agree that Transmuted just to turn a spell into your preferred type is probably not worth it unless it's the end of the day and you've got points to blow. Though 4 extra points * a bunch of critters in an AOE is still nothing to sneeze at, while being less than the expected 6 points you'd get from Empowering say a Fireball. Really where it shines is avoiding resistance, or better yet avoiding immunity or targeting vulnerability.
    Avoiding resistance is valid, but if you care about that I'd generally advocate for things like dragon breath or chromatic orb or elemental weapon over transmute. It's good to not be married to a singular damage type but IMO that's a good argument for picking up Elemental Adept if you're hyper focused, or just having a little diversity in your options.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    So what's the coolest thing you can do by level, metamagically speaking?
    Thought of some ideas:

    Level 3: twinned chromatic orb (6d8 max)/twinned Blur
    Level 5: twinned Blink/Fly/Haste
    Level 7: twinned Greater Invisibility/Polymorph

    Am I missing something?
    Twinned chromatic orb is way too risky IMO and not really the sort of thing I'd recommend using Twin for. After all, its "6d8" but that's no better than hitting two targets with a normal unmodified Shatter / Binding Ice / Scorcher. Twinned blur is very good though.

    Twinned Blink is great. If not strictly optimal it is fun.

    Twinned Fly is eh, you can replicate the same thing with a 4th level slot so its ultimately not crazy given the cost

    Twinned Haste is super risky and has less benefit than you'd expect. Sure its a big bonus to two characters, but if you get your concentration dropped they'll both lose a turn and things really go badly for your team. And yeah the extra action/attack is good, but on good martial characters its only like a +33% damage boost. Good, but not game changing. Unless there's two rogues in the party and they do the held attack rogue trick, in which case this is AWESOME.

    Twinned GI/Polymorph are both winners.

    Twinned dragon's breath is great. Twinned green flame blade should work but its up to your DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Transmute and Empower can be combined with other metamagic. Metamagic adept gives +2 sorcery points and +2 metamagic options.

    You could just have both and use both. Transmute and empower fireball into coldball. Draconic sorcerer is a good blaster IMO.
    Yeah fair enough, I just think its generally overrated.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2023-01-27 at 04:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Yeah fair enough, I just think its generally overrated.
    2 extra sorcery points is good at low level. 2 extra meta magics is good at high level. It's overrated for non-sorcerers, it's wonderful for sorcerers.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    2 extra sorcery points is good at low level. 2 extra meta magics is good at high level. It's overrated for non-sorcerers, it's wonderful for sorcerers.
    While it's certainly not as good as on a Sorcerer, Metamagic Adept is not necessarily overrated for certain other casters (not all), since 1-2 Extended spells per day and/or 1-2 Subtle spells per day can really come in clutch.

    Extended is great for making long duration spells even longer, especially on casters with an emphasis on buffs and summons. You effectively get two "free castings" of spells per day, if you time it right. For example, a Warlock turning a 1 hour duration spell like Summon Undead/Armor of Agathys into 2 hours and thus casting it before a Short Rest and still having its normal duration running even after the short rest is over and all your spell slots are back. Or a Cleric turning 8 hour duration spells like upcast Aid/Death Ward into 16 hours and thus being able to pre-cast them before a Long Rest and then start the day with it running all day long plus having all your spell slots and all your Sorcery Points back. Basically, it's a great way to get use out of your non-expended spells slots when heading directly into a rest.

    Subtle is then quite handy for infiltration, influencing social situations, or avoiding Counterspells.

    So it's certainly worth considering on non-Sorcerer casters, depending on the exact build and spell list, especially in situations like when you get a free feat at Level 1, or when you roll really well for stats and end up well ahead of the stat curve for your level and thus have the ASI to spare.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-27 at 05:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Avoiding resistance is valid, but if you care about that I'd generally advocate for things like dragon breath or chromatic orb or elemental weapon over transmute. It's good to not be married to a singular damage type but IMO that's a good argument for picking up Elemental Adept if you're hyper focused, or just having a little diversity in your options.



    Twinned chromatic orb is way too risky IMO and not really the sort of thing I'd recommend using Twin for. After all, its "6d8" but that's no better than hitting two targets with a normal unmodified Shatter / Binding Ice / Scorcher. Twinned blur is very good though.

    Twinned Blink is great. If not strictly optimal it is fun.

    Twinned Fly is eh, you can replicate the same thing with a 4th level slot so its ultimately not crazy given the cost

    Twinned Haste is super risky and has less benefit than you'd expect. Sure its a big bonus to two characters, but if you get your concentration dropped they'll both lose a turn and things really go badly for your team. And yeah the extra action/attack is good, but on good martial characters its only like a +33% damage boost. Good, but not game changing. Unless there's two rogues in the party and they do the held attack rogue trick, in which case this is AWESOME.

    Twinned GI/Polymorph are both winners.

    Twinned dragon's breath is great. Twinned green flame blade should work but its up to your DM.



    Yeah fair enough, I just think its generally overrated.
    Interesting that on one hand you're advising against CO in part because it's single target, but earlier in your post suggesting CO, Dragon Breath, and Elemental Weapon over Transmuting a far more impactful spell like Fireball. Again, it's campaign dependent, but if common foes are going to have resistances a player is going to be way better off by efficiently spending 1 SP avoiding resistance with a good spell than trying to use a mediocre one. For example, if a typical encounter in tier 2 looks like a Bone Devil and a horde of Spined Devils, getting a Transmuted Fireball off against the Spined Devils is going to be really impactful for a modest cost.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    Interesting that on one hand you're advising against CO in part because it's single target, but earlier in your post suggesting CO, Dragon Breath, and Elemental Weapon over Transmuting a far more impactful spell like Fireball. Again, it's campaign dependent, but if common foes are going to have resistances a player is going to be way better off by efficiently spending 1 SP avoiding resistance with a good spell than trying to use a mediocre one. For example, if a typical encounter in tier 2 looks like a Bone Devil and a horde of Spined Devils, getting a Transmuted Fireball off against the Spined Devils is going to be really impactful for a modest cost.
    Look, if you're bringing a Red Dragon Sorcerer with Fireball to the campaign where you fight devils all the time, you have already made a bad decision. Transmute makes you less horribly ineffective at damage dealing, sure, but also what are you doing?

    If you're a Black Dragon Sorcerer and you want a big acidball because the options for acid are limited normally, transmute also makes sense, but that feels more like a thematic choice overall than an optimization decision.

    If you're a Red Dragon Sorcerer and you only sometimes fight devils, investing in transmute might make sense as a way to keep your damage "floor" high. But I consider that sort of niche. You're spending one of 2-3 MM options just to deal with an edge case where your single gimmick doesn't work, and that's not really how I would like to spend my constrained build resources.

    It's much better to just have
    1. a few spells with "built-in" transmute like the ones mentioned that can deal damage all the time and also in your element.
    2. some options that aren't tied to your stupid fire damage gimmick.

    that's why I brought up having Fear and Careful Spell. That's an option/combo that's thematic and strong and useful in a lot of situations where direct fire damage won't be. Sure, maybe not the greatest against spine devils specfically, but it covers LOADS of other random edge cases

    CO is decent damage type coverage at low levels, and if you have Twin Spell I can see twinning CO. But I also don't think its a reason to pick up Twin metamagic.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2023-01-28 at 09:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    2 extra sorcery points is good at low level. 2 extra meta magics is good at high level. It's overrated for non-sorcerers, it's wonderful for sorcerers.
    As the final feat for any non sorcerer caster that gets foresight the extend meta magic would be quite good.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    So if Haste and Fly aren't worth twinning, seems to me that not many spells are.

    Also, it occurred to me that if you quicken Enervation, you can deal the initial damage and the second-turn damage immediately, since it calls for an action to do it again. Is that correct?
    Still thinking of the best things to use Quickened on (other than to Dodge/Disengage).

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    So if Haste and Fly aren't worth twinning, seems to me that not many spells are.

    Also, it occurred to me that if you quicken Enervation, you can deal the initial damage and the second-turn damage immediately, since it calls for an action to do it again. Is that correct?
    Still thinking of the best things to use Quickened on (other than to Dodge/Disengage).
    Twin is just generally very expensive unless you're doing it with a low-level spell, and a lot of spells can be upcast to hit multiple targets anyway. So Twin is very good but it doesn't combo with a ton of spells.

    Haste is worth twinning, but its risky because dropping concentration means both of the hasted people lose a turn.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    Still thinking of the best things to use Quickened on (other than to Dodge/Disengage).
    Quickened Polymorph and then attacking immediately is petty cool. Obviously risky to polymorph yourself since you're likely to lose concentration but still - cool as heck.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Twin is most useful on low level single target Concentration buffs, or low level single target offensive spells that still have some effect even on a miss/save. Things like Protection from Good/Evil, or Dissonant Whispers.

    So, for example, a Divine Soul Sorcerer taking the Fey Touched feat would be a better candidate for Twin Spell.

    Twinning higher level spells gets costly. And Twinning a spell that has no effect if you miss or the enemy saves just feels extra bad, wasting not only the slot but the SP as well.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-30 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Specter View Post
    What short multiclass would be good at higher levels (6+)?
    Nothing. There is nothing worth losing actual Sorcerer levels if you want maximum potency.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Chaos Bolt, Magic Missile, and Chromatic Orb all have seems to be a favorite, but I think Chromatic Orb (upside is damage type that is selectable, but you have to hit with the attack) while Magic Missile is Auto Hit force damage.
    Chromatic Orb requires a 50gp gem as a non-consumable focus to cast it, so don't take it as a level 1 spell unless you know you'll get the material component.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Chromatic Orb requires a 50gp gem as a non-consumable focus to cast it, so don't take it as a level 1 spell unless you know you'll get the material component.
    Fair point. We had houseruled "can use arcane focus" but later on we realized it was like Identify. You have to own the pearl.
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Magic Missile is objectively superior to Chromatic Orb on basically all characters.

    Magic Missile does 3 average damage less, but nearly always deals its damage. Chromatic Orb has very slightly higher potential damage, but can miss and deal zero damage, which more than offsets that.

    MM also has +30' range.

    In addition, MM can be split between multiple enemies, for example if trying to force Concentration checks on multiple casters. Or can even force a single caster to make multiple Concentration checks.

    Finally, MM multiplies the effects of some damage bonuses like Hexblade's Curse or Fury of the Small. CO would be doing 3d8+PB while MM is doing 3(1d4+1+PB), thus applying the PB extra damage 3x instead of 1x. This can cause MM to deal even more damage than CO.

    Chromatic Orb's benefit is that you can select the elemental damage type on the fly, to potentially target elemental vulnerabilities (if known), or trigger subclass abilities. But that makes it potentially mechanically superior only on a few specific niche builds like a Draconic Sorcerer, and even then the risk of a miss can outweigh that +CHA damage boost.

    Plus that Elemental Affinity ability isn't available until 6th level and onward, at which point you're less likely to be burning spell slots on CO to deal single target elemental damage anyway, especially considering a scaling cantrip can be doing close to the same single target elemental damage without using spell slots.

    Whereas even at higher levels, a well-timed auto-hitting multi-Concentration-check-forcing MM can remain useful when facing casters.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-31 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Magic Missile is objectively superior to Chromatic Orb on basically all characters.{snip} Whereas even at higher levels, a well-timed auto-hitting multi-Concentration-check-forcing MM can remain useful when facing casters.
    And yet, people still use Chromatic Orb. (And if you run into a flame skull with MM you are hosed. Check out the Starter Set. )

    A crit with Chromatic Orb sure does boost the damage. Our Sorcerer in Salt Marsh campaign does not use MM. He loves Chromatic Orb.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2023-01-31 at 11:06 AM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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    Default Re: Making the most out of Draconic Sorcerer

    Sure. There are plenty of "mechanically less optimal but still flavorful/fun and viable" options out there. It's not like CO is equivalent to something like True Strike, a flat-out terrible trap option that should never be considered.

    You don't always have to do what's 100% mechanically optimal. (Just like not every melee character has to take GWM/PAM, or similar.) But sometimes you want to consider the mechanics when you're making a choice.

    The number of reasonable choices in 5E that are mechanically outright terrible are fairly small, all things considered. Whereas plenty of stuff may be less optimal, but still decent, and if it fits your character, go for it!


    And if you run into a Flameskull or other caster with Shield, or one of the very few enemies with Force damage immunity, hopefully MM isn't your sole offensive option. You'll hopefully have a cantrip or two and perhaps some different leveled spells. Besides, Shield is effective against CO too, since CO relies on an attack roll against their AC that can potentially be boosted by Shield too.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2023-01-31 at 11:43 AM.

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