OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

[wilphe]

Ok:

So 1273 was the "It's not Julia it's Sabine" strip

And 1274 is the "It's not Julia it's Eugene" strip


Can we open a book on who it will be instead of Julia instead of 1275?



My money is on "It's not Julia it's one of the Flumphs", with a hedge on "It's not Julia it's That Guy With The Halberd"


Or, as we're going for insane fan theories "It's not Julia it's Serini" because she is testing out what the groups ethical limits are before deciding to really help them or not

[Psepha]

I'm think I'm leaning towards the "It's Eugene" side of the argument. It's not conclusive - it's still close enough that these could all be easily explained coincidences and it's really Julia, but there's enough here to make me seriously consider Eugene as the identify of the caller.

[Sienar]

I'm in the Eugene camp but one thing that is keeping me from fully setting up a tent and digging a fire pit and a latrine is that Roy seems to be oblivious to this not being Julia. We just had a long arc where Roy is convinced that Durkula is Durkon until the vamp makes multiple personality errors. Is he just that oblivious or just doesn't know his sister that well to pick up on all the clues?

[crayzz]

Y'know, it didn't occur to me at the time, but in 1272l Julia asks "How did you know I was about to call?" which is a weird thing to ask since presumably her spell wouldn't give her any information on what Roy was doing prior to the call, and so she wouldn't have heard his conversation with Bloodfeast minutes prior.

That said:

1) Roy says Eugene knows when he's alone, ergo Julia does too. Julia says "Oh. That's obviously what it was." This can be taken as a "Sure, let's go with that" from Eugene.

2) We then have the freak out reaction about how Roy knew that, which makes much more sense if it isn't Julia. Eugene reacting that way about getting out-magic-knowledged by Roy would fit.

3) Then we have Julia being surprised about how much Roy learned at fighter school. Fits for Julia, but it fits even more for Eugene who saw the whole thing as a waste of money and his son throwing his life away. Eugene is in the odd position of being impressed by Roy.

4) Immediately after, Julia is worried about not remembering Roy's admittance day. The real Julia would have jumped straight to snark - Eugene thinks he has slipped up and Roy has figured out he isn't Julia.

5) The "sacrificing a child" argument reads like its an argument between Roy and Eugene directly.

6) "That's easy for you to say!" could be Julia saying she has to pick things up after Roy dies...but it makes more sense for it to be Eugene referring to the Blood Oath. Roy dies, Roy goes to the afterlife. Eugene is still stuck in the clouds.

7) "Being stuck up here" indicates being up in the clouds.

8) The hesitation and word swap on "my family's burden" along with feeling useless. Again, sounds very Eugene.

9) And finally, the crack about Roy being hit in the head too often. Could easily be Julia, but it's exactly the sort of quip I'd expect out of Eugene.

(1) makes sense, but (2) as a follow up from (1) doesn't. "Sure, lets go with that" is a reasonable tactic for Eugene to use to move past an awkward topic, but getting flustered when Roy says he was making stuff up isn't. Getting flustered makes more sense for Julia, who's upset she basically got tricked into saying random made up nonsense was "obvious" magical knowledge.

(3) and (9) are both consistent with Julia. You could make the argument that they're even more consistent with Eugene, but they're not really evidence of it being Eugene over it being Julia. You can make the same argument for (5), but we don't really know much about Julia's sense of ethics so I'd say (5) is weak evidence for Eugene.

I think (4), (6), (7), and (8) are the only indications of it actually being Eugene that are worth considering.

[WoodStock_PV]

Ok. So I reread all of Julia's dialogue since the Mechane scene and while at first it seemed to be just Roy having a conversation with his sister this last comic really got me thinking it's not her. At this point I'd be a bit surprised to find out it was actually Julia all along.

Eugene seems to be the best candidate. I think an Illusionist would invest at least a few points into bluff, disguise or some other social skill to better utilize his powers.. Also, Eugene maitained a facade while hunting Xykon with his party of adventurers and managed to fool his whole family, so he probably could fake his way into this conversation. Why would he need to deceive his son? That I don't know. Any insight or help he could lend would taken into account by Roy as far I know.

Some people said it could be Sabine, but I don't know.. I think she would be trying harder to influence his actions, but maybe she's just trying to gather intel? But why would that be necessary since the IFCC can just see their every action?
I know she's bound to return and she has the skillset to impersonate someone, but what would be the IFCC goals with this charade?

[Tubercular Ox]

I'm finally understanding the Eugene argument. The Geekery thread says he's Lawful Good, is that consistent with sacrificing Sunny? I guess we're already discussing that. I think his cynical nature gives him more leeway to have sacrifice-sunny-to-save-the-world moments, I'm just not certain if it's enough.

But it's still a lot of character growth for him. If later there's a reveal showing this is Eugene, there is going to be an explanation for why he's suddenly able to work with his son without what we're used to seeing from Eugene... even if he struggles sometimes.

[alceryes]

I don't get it. In the previous panel, Roy talked about Sunny's benefit to the party, specifically it's antimagic ray, but when Julia actually starts constructing a plan with Sunny, Roy goes all, "Don't include the children!"
She hadn't even gotten into specifics of where the rest of the party would be and how much danger Sunny would actually be in yet.

You can't have it both ways, Roy!

[hroþila]

I don't get it. In the previous panel, Roy talked about Sunny's benefit to the party, specifically it's antimagic ray, but when Julia actually starts constructing a plan with Sunny, Roy goes all, "Don't include the children!"
She hadn't even gotten into specifics of where the rest of the party would be and how much danger Sunny would actually be in yet.

You can't have it both ways, Roy!

Roy is fine with using Sunny, Roy is not fine with singling Sunny out for particularly dangerous tasks that would put them in unnecessary and unreasonable danger.

[pendell]

What's the benefit to Eugene of disguising himself as Julia, as opposed to appearing to Roy in his true form?

I concede that Eugene could indeed pull off such a disguise. He did it in Azure City. The difference is the disguise was needed so he and Lord Shojo could pull off a farce of a trial, thereby using the paladins to bring the party to Azure City while also ensuring the party would not be found guilty and killed.

I just don't see a rationale for Eugene to disguise himself in this instance; Roy doesn't respect Julia any more than he respects Eugene. What's more , Julia's words so far are entirely consistent with what a true neutral young magic user would say.

Roy is fine with using Sunny, Roy is not fine with singling Sunny out for particularly dangerous tasks that would put them in unnecessary and unreasonable danger.

Seems reasonable.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What's the benefit to Eugene of disguising himself as Julia, as opposed to appearing to Roy in his true form?

I concede that Eugene could indeed pull off such a disguise. He did it in Azure City. The difference is the disguise was needed so he and Lord Shojo could pull off a farce of a trial, thereby using the paladins to bring the party to Azure City while also ensuring the party would not be found guilty and killed.

I just don't see a rationale for Eugene to disguise himself in this instance; Roy doesn't respect Julia any more than he respects Eugene. What's more , Julia's words so are are entirely consistent with what a true neutral young magic user would say.

Roy made it quite clear he has no desire to talk to him unless he has useful information to convey. Eugene is bored and wants to talk; here, he'd be skirting the issue by pretending to be Julia, which gives him enough information he can at least have a conversation about tactics, one of the subjects Roy does allow him.

GW

[Doug Lampert]

Ok:

So 1273 was the "It's not Julia it's Sabine" strip

And 1274 is the "It's not Julia it's Eugene" strip


Can we open a book on who it will be instead of Julia instead of 1275?



My money is on "It's not Julia it's one of the Flumphs", with a hedge on "It's not Julia it's That Guy With The Halberd"


Or, as we're going for insane fan theories "It's not Julia it's Serini" because she is testing out what the groups ethical limits are before deciding to really help them or not

Nonsence, it is blatantly obvious that this is Redcloak's Niece.

I'm finally understanding the Eugene argument. The Geekery thread says he's Lawful Good, is that consistent with sacrificing Sunny? I guess we're already discussing that. I think his cynical nature gives him more leeway to have sacrifice-sunny-to-save-the-world moments, I'm just not certain if it's enough.

IIRC we've had other lawful good characters argue for destroying the world now so as to save everyone's soul from the snarl.

The ends usually don't justify the means, but there are very few actual absolutes. Uncounted hundreds of millions die and their very souls are devoured is a pretty extreme justification.

Meanwhile, on the other side, if Sunny is killed fighting then, Sunny's soul goes on to its reward, and Sunny may be one of the luckier people who are alive at this time as most of the rest don't get that much.

The only reason Roy may have a point, is that there is, as yet, no reason to think that using Sunny as bait is actually neccessary. But Roy will almost certainly use Sunny in whatever plan he does come up with, because he needs all the help he can get.

[Quinton250]

I felt like this strip went out of its way to make it blatantly clear Roy was talking to Eugene (for this specific conversation at the very least, if not all along), I'm not sure how anyone is interpreting it any other way. Why would Julia's relative geographical position related to Roy even matter if it wasn't a slip up from Eugene? Why the pause in "my.... family's burden"? It was clearly meant to be Eugene stopping himself from saying "my burden". Even the facial expression Roy makes in the last panel is meant to make it abundantly clear he has missed the obvious tell from "Julia" that he is in fact dealing with Eugene. That face is most often made by Elan, and almost always when he is saying something foolish (See comics 1178, 1187, 1188, 1190, 1197, 1230 for recent examples).

[Psyren]

Oh gods it really is Eugene isn't it.

I really hope not but... why???

[Mike Havran]

Hrrm. This does sound like Julia's usual self. I can see that Roy needs some foil since every other member of the Order have one (Minrah, Haley-Elan, Blackwing, Scruffy). And I also understand the need to make us remember Julia as more than just a spoiled brat.

On the other hand, it's high time for IFCC to enter the game and this being their move would be a twist Giant likes to make. So I still bet on the "something's wrong here'.

A question for Roy's conscience. He's not going to use a child as bait in his battle plan when the risk is high the child will be killed. Fair enough.

So what if Sunny was a full-grown adult? Would you feel the same way, or would you use our friend Sunny as bait then?

What if we substitute Belkar for Sunny? Bait or no?

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

Haley did convince Roy to use a mentally enslaved prisoner as a trap detonator, but I think he's grown since then and now would only send a willing adult into a position of a bait.

[Frozenstep]

I'm finally understanding the Eugene argument. The Geekery thread says he's Lawful Good, is that consistent with sacrificing Sunny? I guess we're already discussing that. I think his cynical nature gives him more leeway to have sacrifice-sunny-to-save-the-world moments, I'm just not certain if it's enough.

But it's still a lot of character growth for him. If later there's a reveal showing this is Eugene, there is going to be an explanation for why he's suddenly able to work with his son without what we're used to seeing from Eugene... even if he struggles sometimes.

I mean, he once suggested Roy do nothing about vampire Durkon, just allow the world to end, because that would kill Xykon, and let all the dwarves go fight dragons to die and avoid Hel.

What's the benefit to Eugene of disguising himself as Julia, as opposed to appearing to Roy in his true form?

I concede that Eugene could indeed pull off such a disguise. He did it in Azure City. The difference is the disguise was needed so he and Lord Shojo could pull off a farce of a trial, thereby using the paladins to bring the party to Azure City while also ensuring the party would not be found guilty and killed.

I just don't see a rationale for Eugene to disguise himself in this instance; Roy doesn't respect Julia any more than he respects Eugene. What's more , Julia's words so are are entirely consistent with what a true neutral young magic user would say.



Seems reasonable.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I think the first time Julia contact Roy was legit, and Roy...actually had a reasonable conversation with Julia, and that was noticed. (Or maybe that was also Eugene, and he saw it went a lot better?). Either way, Eugene hasn't had much luck with convincing Roy of much, maybe he's just trying a different strategy.

[Sienar]

What's the benefit to Eugene of disguising himself as Julia, as opposed to appearing to Roy in his true form?

He's just doing as Roy requested, pawning these visits off to Julia.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html

[hroþila]

To me it's quite clear why Eugene would do this (if he's indeed impersonating Julia), but not so clear why The Giant would. I don't see what kind of value it'd add to the story or how it'd play into the main plot or any existing subplot. That's usually how it goes with plot twists until they actually happen, though.

[alceryes]

Roy is fine with using Sunny, Roy is not fine with singling Sunny out for particularly dangerous tasks that would put them in unnecessary and unreasonable danger.

Do we know that's what Julia was recommending...?
Roy didn't even let her get there.


Of course, this also shows sibling dynamics. I cut my sisters off all the time.

[pendell]

Haley did convince Roy to use a mentally enslaved prisoner as a trap detonator, but I think he's grown since then and now would only send a willing adult into a position of a bait.

It's Julia trying to do the convincing here, not Haley. Haley would have a better chance at convincing Roy because she's better at fast-talking.

I must express my disappointment that we will not see Julia in combat, simply because this means we will never here the immortal line "Do it to Julia!" spoken in dungeon room 101.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tubercular Ox]

IIRC we've had other lawful good characters argue for destroying the world now so as to save everyone's soul from the snarl.

Yeah, okay, I'm sold. Eugene could make that suggestion.

Still holding out on character growth, though... with the caveat that sometimes growth is sideways rather than forwards.

[Jay R]

A question for Roy's conscience. He's not going to use a child as bait in his battle plan when the risk is high the child will be killed. Fair enough.

So what if Sunny was a full-grown adult? Would you feel the same way, or would you use our friend Sunny as bait then?

What if we substitute Belkar for Sunny? Bait or no?

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

I can't speak for Roy, but no, I wouldn't use an adult as a sacrificial pawn, either. But I would accept it if an adult chose to be sacrificial bait in order to save the world. That's not a pawn; it's an adult making his or her own moral decision.

E again to add: I don't see things Roy's way WRT his sister. Boys younger than her served as drummers in our civil war; wars have been decided by combatants about her age. She's more than old enough to fight as an active combatant.

That was true in the Middle Ages, and even as recently as the 19th century. But despite the somewhat medieval structure of this world, the social values in this strip aren't from previous centuries. Rich has made no secret of the fact that he has changed his approach even during the writing of the strip, to keep up with current trends.

To me it's quite clear why Eugene would do this (if he's indeed impersonating Julia), but not so clear why The Giant would. I don't see what kind of value it'd add to the story or how it'd play into the main plot or any existing subplot. That's usually how it goes with plot twists until they actually happen, though.

Yup. I didn't understand what Miko capturing the Order was going to add to the story, or O-Chul's capture, or Nale and Tarquin's relationship, or the bloodwart tea, or the familicide spell, or or a bunch of others. We're not supposed to figure it all out in advance.

Relax and enjoy the ride. Rich is driving.

[Doug Lampert]

Yeah, okay, I'm sold. Eugene could make that suggestion.

Still holding out on character growth, though... with the caveat that sometimes growth is sideways rather than forwards.

Mind you, having pointed out that there are LG justifications for doing extreme things in this situation, I don't think that's Eugene's thing. He's had at least one chance to make that sort of argument, and did not do so.

At least in the case of the whole RC/X/Snarl affair, I think that Eugene is out for what's best for the greater me, rather than what's best for everyone else. But not all actions by a LG character have to be the best possible LG actions or be justified exclusively in terms of alignment.

[Doug Lampert]

That was true in the Middle Ages, and even as recently as the 19th century. But despite the somewhat medieval structure of this world, the social values in this strip aren't from previous centuries. Rich has made no secret of the fact that he has changed his approach even during the writing of the strip, to keep up with current culture.

The US military allows enlistment at 17. It isn't common, and given training times, it's very unlikely that any 17 year olds are seeing combat in the modern military. But 17 is old enough to volunteer and take the oath.

Julia is 17.

If you don't like the military, there are states where 17 is old enough to volunteer as a police cadet and ride along with sworn officers carrying out their duties (which can include getting shot at).

I believe that both of these require a high-school diploma or equivalent (although when I was in highschool one of the other students was a cadet, so it wasn't required then), so Julia probably doesn't qualify, but Julia is old enough to volunteer to risk her life.

Edited to add: Note here, where Durkon has the then 16 year old Julia follow him into combat rather than stay where it's safe and then the next strip, where he sends her off into danger and combat without any adult supervision. In tOotS world, Julia is old enough to put into combat in an emergency; and the potential end of the world is in fact an emergency.

[rasborry]

It's Julia. I bet all the little suspicious things are just meta red herrings.

[Jacky720]

But it's actually worse than that. The debate is between putting Sunny in harm's way vs everybody that has ever lived has their existence annihilated. No afterlife, just fed to the Snarl. The worst-case scenario of putting Sunny in harm's way, Sunny's death, is still better for her than annihilation.

Keep in mind that that scenario is strictly limited to if they fight at the gate and break it. If everyone dies, it still takes a couple weeks for the ritual while the gods flush this world away.

Y'know, it didn't occur to me at the time, but in 1272l Julia asks "How did you know I was about to call?" which is a weird thing to ask since presumably her spell wouldn't give her any information on what Roy was doing prior to the call, and so she wouldn't have heard his conversation with Bloodfeast minutes prior.

I mean, it was about the same thing with her first call. I think it's plausible that she can start listening before she starts talking. It would avoid a lot of awkward interruptions.

Roy made it quite clear he has no desire to talk to him unless he has useful information to convey. Eugene is bored and wants to talk; here, he'd be skirting the issue by pretending to be Julia, which gives him enough information he can at least have a conversation about tactics, one of the subjects Roy does allow him.

GW

I'm confused. If he wanted to have a conversation about tactics, and that is a topic Roy allows him, why the deception? It would be more useful if he wanted to have a personal conversation, but of course Julia has different personal shared experiences with Roy. I'm sure there are five other categories of conversation that impersonation would help with, but the caller isn't doing those.

[Corian]

I'm going to throw in this epileptic tree: It's the IFCC controlling Eugene to do an illusion of Julia! Everybody happy?


More seriously: Narratively, hard to believe the IFCC is not involved, but despite the many slips, there's also a lot that feels like Julia to me. Sonny as bait is what a True Neutral would do. Being defensive about how much she doesn't understand is exactly right. Uneven growth is what teens do. So... not throwing my lot behind any theory.

[gatemansgc]

roy truly showing what it means to be lawful good here

[Crusher]

Huh. Ok. Not how I expected that to go.

I'm honestly still having trouble believing that's Julia but I'm now at a loss as to who else it might be. I guess she's had a gigantic amount of personal growth over the last couple months and it was important we see it and get a recap on the recent action. It hasn't felt like a potential final goodbye (at least, not so far), so I'm guessing Julia (and maybe some magic research?) will be important later.

No, darn it. I just don't think that's Julia. She was a bratty, aggressively snarky True Neutral teen not that long ago and it just feels weird her brisk character growth that resulted in her feeling an enormous sense of personal responsibility and evaporated 90% of her snark also left her confused that sacrificing a child might be a step too far. Like, I really can't see the Julia from Cliffport advocating this. She didn't even go with "its an aberration, does it *really* count as a child?" which would make sense, she just went hard to "The world is ending, you do what you gotta do." Suggesting she's growing up, but potentially in a NE/LE direction, perhaps?

Maybe its Sabine and the IFCC are doing the projection somehow? I don't even buy that myself. Sigh. I just don't get it.

Edit - I guess Eugene remains a dark horse candidate, but I just can't see him actually apologizing to Roy like that.

Edit2 - Ok, just got through reading everyone else's posts and re-read the last couple strips. I'm now in camp Eugene, the 3rd to last panel in this one did it for me.

[Windscion]

Reporting to camp Its Eugene. As GW pointed out, Roy isn't receptive to Eugene's advice, and he might think he can control advise Roy more effectively by posing as Julia. Also, he has been sidelined, and is likely mad bored.

[MoiMagnus]

A question for Roy's conscience. He's not going to use a child as bait in his battle plan when the risk is high the child will be killed. Fair enough.

So what if Sunny was a full-grown adult? Would you feel the same way, or would you use our friend Sunny as bait then?

What if we substitute Belkar for Sunny? Bait or no?

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

First, Roy would probably never use an innocent as bait (with high chance of death) without asking for their consent first. Maybe in the extreme case where the bait has to not know that they're a bait or he doesn't have time to ask, he would be content being 100% convinced that they would have said yes. But sacrificing an innocent against their will is likely out of the question.

So the question is "At which point is Roy feeling ok with asking someone if they'd be willing to sacrifice themself?". And I have two guesses:
(1) Would be that impressionable peoples, children included, are a "no, it's not fair because they're don't fully understand what they agree too".
(2) Would be that Roy subconsciously categorised peoples in "those that need to be protected" and those who don't, and would never ask for a sacrifice to those that are in the first category.