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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Here's a fun thought exercise: if the other characters were debating this scene...

    would guess that it's Julia; the tone of the scene to this point requires it to be genuine.
    would insist that it's not Julia, seeing another shell game in progress, and insist the most likely culprit as Serini, testing Roy's commitment to "the best solution for the most people", even if it goes against his personal preferences.
    would just cast True Seeing, obviously, but if that wasn't prepared then he'd probably insist that people judge the words themselves rather than focus on who is saying them - something that would have helped immensely when he was the one who needed to be sniffed out.
    would say it's not worth the risk to even think about it and insist on blocking Roy's mind from the spell.
    wouldn't publicly take a side at all, still somewhat paralyzed by prior major mistakes in his own recent past.
    wouldn't have to guess because if it is Eugene, one look at the crown would end up dispelling the glamour.

    I'm with Elan.

    And on the subject of child sacrifice when literally weighed against the fate of multiple worlds - worlds which happen to include billions upon billions of children, including the one to be sacrificed anyway - it's something of a no-brainer. To even consider how I would feel about it is inherently selfish, because my guilt-wracked conscience is not worth countless lives, and short-sighted, because not using every tool at one's disposal is essentially the same as choosing to imperil everyone. I'd rather sacrifice one and look him in the eleven eyes while I do it than coldly sign a trillion anonymous death warrants.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Kish literally offered several significant ones already in the post I was responding to.
    One seems to be giving a lot of weight on something Greg said to get under his skin, which while it wouldn't be an effective taunt if there wasn't something to base it on its very far from his entire personality.

    He was always a good person - part of his arc is learning to be an effective leader and understanding how to use the talents of those about him. Haley at Azure City, Elan at Windy Canyon (DCF era Roy would never have let Elan loose to trip over the plot)


    The Deva is more about him being impatient to get back (which is not the same thing as thinking he's too smart to have to listen to anybody)

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Fair.
    He has at least become aware of this and seems to be improving, although I think Kish's examples are pretty significant. (The one with the deva always stands out to me-- a literal servant of Celestia is telling you they have something important to say and to just stop and listen, and more than once you're like "No, I know what you're going to say; I don't need to listen to you.")

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Panel 11 is what's killing it for me. I don't see Eugene acting that way, with a sincere smile as a response to Roy shooting the idea down permanently and then accepting the apology. That being said, I won't be surprised if it's Eugene. I just reverted back to thinking it's legit Julia. If it's not, it's definitely not anyone else.
    Panel 10 is what has me thinking Kish et. al. may be correct, between "up here" and the delay on "my... family's burden."

    Quote Originally Posted by Tubercular Ox View Post
    Okay, so, having one example doesn't equate to having confidence that Rich is pursuing that example, but what if Rich were going for the storyline where the son who wants his father's respect only earns it after giving up on wanting or needing his father's respect? Movies with this subplot usually have a scene of the father looking on as the son lives an independent life, never communicating his respect to the son but letting the audience know that the son helped the father grow. Eugene is already set up for that, looking from afar is his thing.

    If Rich were doing that, and if this is Eugene disguised as Julia, then the Giant could be setting Eugene up to learn that Roy has a different personality and different ideas when he's not burdened by their relationship. There's friction right now because Eugene is still burdened by the relationship, but he's trying, darn it, whatever his motives for trying are.

    If this is what Rich is doing, he wants us to see these scenes so that Eugene doesn't pop up in the denouement and say, "I forgive you, son," with nothing behind it.

    On the other hand, maybe Rich wants the opposite of that. Or maybe he wants 95% of that then subvert it hard at the end. I could write just as long a post about Sabine, but probably not about "It's just Julia" since that's a null hypothesis and null hypotheses are hard to defend positively.
    What would Roy need Eugene's forgiveness for?

    As far as what this part of the story is about, I agree that Roy has moved past wanting or needing Eugene's respect, but I have my doubts it's going to go in this direction, because everything I've seen of Eugene suggests that his respect is not even a particularly desirable thing to have.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Do we know enough about Julia to judge if her current support of using an innocent child (even a beholder) as bait is "out of character"?
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Could she have even known Sunny was an actual child?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    Do we know enough about Julia to judge if her current support of using an innocent child (even a beholder) as bait is "out of character"?
    Doubtful, but at her age, she might still not feel right about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Could she have even known Sunny was an actual child?
    Don't know, but "So?" in response to finding that out doesn't speak well of "her."

    Broadly: It could be confirmation bias, but I went back and read the first Roy-Julia conversation and then the second, and it does feel different to me. Besides the possible slip-ups, she's more aggressive, more intent on talking strategy, less willing to razz Roy. I'm leaning more toward Eugene in disguise.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Two different points in favor of the "Eugene"-Camp, the first one way worse than the other:

    1) When I first read the strip, I thought the last line of Julia was a reference to Roy falling to his death, his head being cracked wide open. I don't think that Julia knew the exact details of Roy's death (does she even know about his death?) but Eugene definitely would because he watched. I know, probably it's just a "fighters get hit in the head a bunch" but maybe MAYBE there is also some other slip-up there.

    Second and better point imo: Roy told Julia in their first conversation that it is not about the bloodoath anymore, it's about saving the entire world, nay, their whole existence. It seems really weird for Julia to focus in panel 10 on the family burden. She never cared about that. Why would she now care about it, now that the world is at stake? She never seemed like the "I have to make amends for my fathers wrongdoings" person and taking responsiblity for something that her father did doesn't feel really Juliaish for me.

    To be honest: My bet is really IFCC using Eugene. Just because Eugene wants Xykon dead and doesn't care about anything else.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wilphe View Post
    Examples?


    I have never got that vibe from Roy - he knows he has decent mental stats but not the best. He might have had that in the early DCF days before the rest of the party had character growth and couldn't be relied on - but that's a long time ago now.


    Even at the siege of Azure City he's prepared to listen to Haley about the shell game


    If anyone in the order gave me that vibe to me it would be pre-familicide V
    Roy does have a bad habit of overestimating how much he understands what's going on. The whole situation with Vampire Durkon was a good example. Or this or, for that matter, him utterly brushing off the Deva trying to warn him about V's deal with the devil (and demon and daemon). Roy's assumption that he knows what's going on has often led him to overlook stuff he really should pay attention to.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Not to mention the high plot-relevant time Roy outsmarted himself by consistently knocking back the Oracle's (likely genuine) attempts to help.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    or for that matter, him utterly brushing off the Deva trying to warn him about V's deal with the devil (and demon and daemon). Roy's assumption that he knows what's going on has often led him to overlook stuff he really should pay attention to.
    That's just Roy being impatient, not him thinking he's smarter than the Deva. If they hadn't literally been in the process of Resurrecting him, he would have listened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    Not to mention the high plot-relevant time Roy outsmarted himself by consistently knocking back the Oracle's (likely genuine) attempts to help.
    Considering what happened the first time Roy went to the Oracle (Xykon being located in his throne room, for those who don't remember), it's obvious why he did what he did was not out of any sense of intelligent superiority, but rather practicality. While Roy did outsmart himself, it was only because a previous experience told him he needed to outsmart the oracle to get any useful information.
    Last edited by WanderingMist; 2023-01-28 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Typo

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Kish literally offered several significant ones already in the post I was responding to.
    I'm also blinking at the "even" there. Apparently listening to Haley is going above and beyond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'm also blinking at the "even" there. Apparently listening to Haley is going above and beyond.
    Also, the point Haley is making there IE Roy's willingness to accept the situation as presented at face value rather then contemplate deception unprompted, is itself kinda part of his habit of thinking he knows more then he does.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    "Even" in the sense of relatively early in everyones' character development

    I remind you that at the very start Roy feels he has to stay up or night because he thinks Haley, Belkar & Elan are too greedy, psychotic or stupid to be left alone on watch.

    He's at first glad when Elan gets captured by the bandits because he thinks he is useless, and he doesn't go back to help him because he has changed his mind and now thinks Elan is crucial to the team


    From there to "actually thinking they have valid input and soliciting it" is a journey


    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Also, the point Haley is making there IE Roy's willingness to accept the situation as presented at face value rather then contemplate deception unprompted, is itself kinda part of his habit of thinking he knows more then he does.
    She's calling them out for being Lawful, not for intellectual arrogance


    Quote Originally Posted by WanderingMist View Post
    Consideringg what happened the first time Roy went to the Oracle (Xykon being located in his throne room, for those who don't remember), it's obvious why he did what he did was not out of any sense of intelligent superiorty, but rather practicality. While Roy did outsmart himself, it was only because a previous experience told him he needed to outsmart the oracle to get any useful information.
    Yeah, and he is not a super genius who started with INT 18 (probably), even so he realised very fast the implications when Elan talked about the Three Gates
    Last edited by wilphe; 2023-01-28 at 09:09 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Panel 10 is what has me thinking Kish et. al. may be correct, between "up here" and the delay on "my... family's burden."
    Oh, that raised my eyebrow the second I read it, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Broadly: It could be confirmation bias, but I went back and read the first Roy-Julia conversation and then the second, and it does feel different to me. Besides the possible slip-ups, she's more aggressive, more intent on talking strategy, less willing to razz Roy. I'm leaning more toward Eugene in disguise.
    Went back and reread myself, too, and you're right. And the biggest thing that jumped out at me was Julia completely balking at the idea of helping in any way other than giving advice to start with and now being frustrated that giving advice is the only way she can help. In the span of what, eight hours or so?

    So yeah, Eugene makes the most sense.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Stuck up here? Advocating using a child as bait? That's not Julia, that's Roy's dad.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Until I saw how few people had shifted their positions, I thought this was where Rich went all the way to as good as saying it.

    So that I can be on the record: That's Eugene. Not Julia. Not Sabine. Not Serini pretending to be Julia pretending to be Eugene pretending to be Julia. 100% Eugene.
    Why though? What's the point in having Eugene pretending to be Julia talking to Roy? What's the narrative importance of that? I know that this could be laying the groundwork for something, but I just can't see what that is. Having Julia game-planning with Roy makes a lot of sense as this is the run up to the end, but I can't see any reason for Eugene to be talking to Roy from his waiting room in the afterlife...

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellmarcus View Post
    Why though?
    If Eugene shows up as Eugene then Roy and him will argue, if he shows up as Julia then him and Roy can strategise.

    Also he is bored and has nothing better to do.

    Frankly if it is Eugene (which I think it likely is) then I am somewhat on the fence as to if Roy has figured it out or not - Roy does gets to benefit from the knowledge of an experienced adventurer who actually wants to help his quest while he can set the terms for that help.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    My guess is that it would come down to "is this person mature enough to meaningfully consent to what I'm asking of them".
    My take, too. Consent is a big thing for lawful character, either evil or good. If a person agrees, it's a deal. But to agree, they has to be able to understand what they agreed to. Even if, for LE character, "understand" is a little blurry.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    What would Roy need Eugene's forgiveness for?
    He wouldn't. I put that out as a line stereotypical of a plotline with many, many variations, not a specific prediction.

    It fits Eugene because Eugene blames Roy for the death of his second son and for becoming a fighter instead of a wizard (which up to this point has been a sleight in his eyes.)

    Eugene forgiving Roy might enrage Roy, because Roy feels he did nothing wrong. That's why one option for this plotline is Roy doesn't find out it's Eugene. It could all be a nod to the audience. But not the only option.

    It would be an even happier ending if Eugene realized the grudges he holds towards Roy were unfounded, but that's also not the only option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellmarcus View Post
    Why though? What's the point in having Eugene pretending to be Julia talking to Roy?
    What if seeing Roy get into Heaven just because he was trying, combined with all the time between the last time we saw Eugene for certain and the first time we potentially saw Eugene posing as Julia, helped Eugene conclude that he should continue pursuing his blood oath, even after death?

    Roy is in it to save the world, Eugene, if this is Eugene, would be in it to fulfill his blood oath, which still counts as growth compared to his previous method of sniping at Roy over it.

    Pretending to be Julia seems natural for a Eugene that is taking his blood oath more seriously, realizes he's in conflict with his son, and has a past example of impersonating others.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellmarcus View Post
    Why though? What's the point in having Eugene pretending to be Julia talking to Roy? What's the narrative importance of that? I know that this could be laying the groundwork for something, but I just can't see what that is. Having Julia game-planning with Roy makes a lot of sense as this is the run up to the end, but I can't see any reason for Eugene to be talking to Roy from his waiting room in the afterlife...
    The blood oath was the catalyst for the story in this entire strip, it makes sense that we would circle back to it even if the stakes have become much higher since. While I don't think it's necessary to know exactly why the Giant chose to make Eugene pretend to be Julia right now to believe that it *is* Eugene that Roy is talking to, there are a few possibilities:
    • The Giant intended the story to go one way when Roy vowed to no longer speak to Eugene and has since changed course, this is a way to bring Eugene back in contact with Roy.

    • The Giant wants Eugene to come to respect Roy and trust in him to know how to deal with the world ending threat at hand, rather than have him show up after Roy saves the world with a "Thanks, I guess you weren't as useless as I thought". By pretending to be Julia, he is forced to talk to Roy in a (slightly) more loving way to maintain the ruse, and Roy speaks to him thinking he is Julia. This allows Eugene to see what a healthy relationship could look like for him, and also leads to him having open conversations with Roy that allow him to see how capable and intelligent he is. In the future, there could be a moment where Roy looks to Julia for advice and "Julia" responds by revealing she is Eugene and saying he trusts Roy to do what's right.

    • The complete opposite could be true, and Eugene is selfish til the end. Perhaps "Julia" nixes a viable idea for dealing with Xykon because it would only take him off the board rather than defeating him (getting pulled into the world within the Snarl for example). Roy realizes it was Eugene he was talking to, changes course, and the day is saved but Eugene remains locked out of the afterlife. While Roy survives the battle, he is unsure if he will be allowed back into the afterlife when he dies because this time around he won't be able to say he did everything in his power to end the blood oath. Roy is okay the fact that he would have been better off staying dead the first time because he isn't as selfish as his dad.
    Last edited by Quinton250; 2023-01-28 at 11:18 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    It's less being stupid and more finding new lush fields of idiocy in the highlands of smartness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdruss View Post
    To be honest: My bet is really IFCC using Eugene. Just because Eugene wants Xykon dead and doesn't care about anything else.
    An intriguing thought, but first, walk me through Eugene's connection with the IFCC and how they get him onto their team. He's trying to get into Celestia, and hangs out on a cloud at Celestia's doorstep.
    They are very much in the other direction and are planning a war on Celestia, and maybe some of the other planes as well. Not seeing it, but I'd like to see how you put that together.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinton250 View Post
    The blood oath was the catalyst for the story in this entire strip, it makes sense that we would circle back to it even if the stakes have become much higher since. While I don't think it's necessary to know exactly why the Giant chose to make Eugene pretend to be Julia right now to believe that it *is* Eugene that Roy is talking to, there are a few possibilities:
    • The Giant intended the story to go one way when Roy vowed to no longer speak to Eugene and has since changed course, this is a way to bring Eugene back in contact with Roy.

    • The Giant wants Eugene to come to respect Roy and trust in him to know how to deal with the world ending threat at hand, rather than have him show up after Roy saves the world with a "Thanks, I guess you weren't as useless as I thought". By pretending to be Julia, he is forced to talk to Roy in a (slightly) more loving way to maintain the ruse, and Roy speaks to him thinking he is Julia. This allows Eugene to see what a healthy relationship could look like for him, and also leads to him having open conversations with Roy that allow him to see how capable and intelligent he is. In the future, there could be a moment where Roy looks to Julia for advice and "Julia" responds by revealing she is Eugene and saying he trusts Roy to do what's right.

    • The complete opposite could be true, and Eugene is selfish til the end. Perhaps "Julia" nixes a viable idea for dealing with Xykon because it would only take him off the board rather than defeating him (getting pulled into the world within the Snarl for example). Roy realizes it was Eugene he was talking to, changes course, and the day is saved but Eugene remains locked out of the afterlife. While Roy survives the battle, he is unsure if he will be allowed back into the afterlife when he dies because this time around he won't be able to say he did everything in his power to end the blood oath. Roy is okay the fact that he would have been better off staying dead the first time because he isn't as selfish as his dad.
    All of this is a spectacularly worded post that mirrors my own thoughts on why Eugene is doing this. It's a growth opportunity and road toward redemption for him, but more importantly for Roy's overall arc. Roy's arc needs to end with either a> earning the acceptance and respect of his father or b> realizing fully how he never needed it and finally letting go of that thread of his past.

    given that Elan's father issue story line ended with B> I'm thinking that Roy's will end with A>

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinton250 View Post
    The Giant intended the story to go one way when Roy vowed to no longer speak to Eugene and has since changed course, this is a way to bring Eugene back in contact with Roy.
    When did he vow this? It was definitely not during the last time he talked with Eugene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinton250 View Post
    I felt like this strip went out of its way to make it blatantly clear Roy was talking to Eugene (for this specific conversation at the very least, if not all along), I'm not sure how anyone is interpreting it any other way. Why would Julia's relative geographical position related to Roy even matter if it wasn't a slip up from Eugene? Why the pause in "my.... family's burden"? It was clearly meant to be Eugene stopping himself from saying "my burden". Even the facial expression Roy makes in the last panel is meant to make it abundantly clear he has missed the obvious tell from "Julia" that he is in fact dealing with Eugene. That face is most often made by Elan, and almost always when he is saying something foolish (See comics 1178, 1187, 1188, 1190, 1197, 1230 for recent examples).
    My money's still on "it's too obvious; it's some third party trying to convince Roy that it's Eugene impersonating Julia".

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    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    Do we know enough about Julia to judge if her current support of using an innocent child (even a beholder) as bait is "out of character"?
    "I'm True Neutral. I go both ways." Though we don't know about how she'd feel about the specific issue of using a child as bait.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    I think she might propose it, but she'd do so understanding that Roy wouldn't agree and why. So she'd go straight to "the whole world is at stake." The "So?" and needing the entire concept of morality explained to her is much more in line with Eugene's brand of "Lawful Good."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    My money's still on "it's too obvious; it's some third party trying to convince Roy that it's Eugene impersonating Julia".
    Man that is... a very convoluted scenario. Props if it turns out, but I think that's a few layers too deep into the onion.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm getting here late, but has the idea of non-Julia/non-Eugene entity been (as much as possible) conclusively ruled out?

    There's been a "green aura" observer since at least the destruction of Girard's gate. I don't know _how_ it could have happened, but I get the feeling one of the Eastern Gods has survived, and the prospect of ending the snarl is _just_ enough to lure them out of hiding.

    If so - any guesses on who?
    Last edited by Stibbons; 2023-01-28 at 01:10 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Stibbons View Post
    I'm getting here late, but has the idea of non-Julia/non-Eugene entity been (as much as possible) conclusively ruled out?

    There's been a "green aura" observer since at least the destruction of Girard's gate. I don't know _how_ it could have happened, but I get the feeling one of the Eastern Gods has survived, and the prospect of ending the snarl is _just_ enough to lure them out of hiding.

    If so - any guesses on who?
    The green scryimg eye in the desert was Z.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    When did he vow this? It was definitely not during the last time he talked with Eugene.
    Yeah, I misremembered things when I said he vowed not to talk to him. Roy just made it clear that if Eugene had no information to share, he didn't want to talk to him. He also made it clear after Eugene left that he didn't want to get any more visits from his Dad.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dellmarcus View Post
    Why though? What's the point in having Eugene pretending to be Julia talking to Roy? What's the narrative importance of that? I know that this could be laying the groundwork for something, but I just can't see what that is. Having Julia game-planning with Roy makes a lot of sense as this is the run up to the end, but I can't see any reason for Eugene to be talking to Roy from his waiting room in the afterlife...
    I'm not clear on how Julia talking to Roy game-planning makes more sense than Eugene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stibbons View Post
    I'm getting here late, but has the idea of non-Julia/non-Eugene entity been (as much as possible) conclusively ruled out?

    There's been a "green aura" observer since at least the destruction of Girard's gate. I don't know _how_ it could have happened, but I get the feeling one of the Eastern Gods has survived, and the prospect of ending the snarl is _just_ enough to lure them out of hiding.

    If so - any guesses on who?
    The green observer is explained here.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2023-01-28 at 02:31 PM.

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