OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

[Tubercular Ox]

Secondly, I really wish people would stop harping on hypocrisy as the biggest sin in the universe.

"I want my side to win, and your side to lose"
"Isn't that a bit hypocritical?"

is a great line I heard recently about hypocrisy.

First Julia wanted Roy to save her, now she wants Sunny to save her. That's consistent.

[CountDVB]

Honestly, I'm holding any real judgments on who is who with this whole situation until later since I am not sure. I am gonna go with Occam's Razor and say it is Julia. But yeah, exploring the various aspects of what it means on the alignment.

Roy raises a valid point over on if anyone else wanted to go and save the world, they can be happy to step up, but no one else has so he's doing how he thinks it could be done. While granted, very few people know about it thanks to the complexity of the secret, but still.

[Peelee]

"I want my side to win, and your side to lose"
"Isn't that a bit hypocritical?"

is a great line I heard recently about hypocrisy.

I'm gonna need you to explain that because I don't see anything in there about hypocrisy.

[Tzardok]

I'm gonna need you to explain that because I don't see anything in there about hypocrisy.

I guess that's the point. If I understand the quote correctly, it's about people calling things hypocritical that aren't hypocritical at all.

[Peelee]

I guess that's the point. If I understand the quote correctly, it's about people calling things hypocritical that aren't hypocritical at all.

That's not a great line about hypocrisy, though. That's effectively jsut saying "no it isn't".

Maybe I'm just not getting it.

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe I'm just not getting it.

I'm hoping it will make more sense to Wraithfighter because he seems jaded about claims of hypocrisy. Not sure I can explain it because I'm jaded about claims of hypocrisy, but:

"Julia-the-child is okay with someone saving her life, but not okay with someone saving Sunny-the-child's life. Isn't that hypocritical?" fits the I-win-you-lose pattern.

I see the pattern crop up a lot in online arguments, and the line pokes fun at the pattern, but if the listener doesn't see the pattern much (or doesn't care) it does sound like I'm saying, "No, it isn't."

[Kish]

I think the ox is saying that since Julia never said "you can't endanger me, I'm a child!" just "what, no, I'm not volunteering to get involved!" there is no hypocrisy in her suggesting using Sunny as cannon fodder.

You know, if the latter was Julia, which it's not, it's totally Eugene.

[bunsen_h]

Secondly, I really wish people would stop harping on hypocrisy as the biggest sin in the universe. Its not good, yeah, I get it, but it's also a pretty universal thing for humanity. Find me someone that isn't a little hypocritical, and I'll show you someone that's either a complete monster, or a corpse. Someone else not seeming hypocritical at all is just a sign that you don't know them very well, and if you're more angry at a person's hypocrisy than the thing they're actually doing that's hypocritical, maybe you should reexamine your priorities.

My usual objections to someone being hypocritical involve them using political or social influence to take a prominent stand against a thing that I think is entirely unobjectionable, and which they themselves are doing. A common example is the politicians and religious leaders who stir up anti-LGBTQ prejudice while themselves not only indulging in exactly that kind of activity, but also taking advantage of their advanced resources to try to hide it. I don't care that they're LGBTQ; I care that they're hurting innocent people in the course of falsely claiming legitimacy in a group of people who have harmful prejudices.

[Khay]

So here's something semi-related that I noticed going back over the last three comics: Bloodfeast's movements. He seems to have a preference for staying fairly close to Roy, about one head's length away, but the exceptions are interesting.

In 1272, he starts running down the corridor, then stops and turns back around when Roy sits down. Bloodfeast's stopping point is just before the point where Julia appears in panel 5. He moves around a bit but mostly keeps a consistent distance to Roy (one head's length).

In 1273, he follows Roy when he moves down the corridor. He's walking in panel 9, but doesn't close the distance to Roy - he again stops just before reaching the spot where Julia is standing.

In panel 1 of 1274, we see he's closed the distance to Roy again - but only after Julia has moved past Roy. We don't see him in panel 6 or 7 at all, but presumably he's standing just off-screen, which means he's again not closing the distance to Roy because Julia is "in the way."

Could just be an art thing to avoid overlapping characters, but Bloodfeast really seems to be acting like something is physically occupying the space where Julia's "Sending phantom" is. It would be very funny if that turned out to be a hint towards... something.

[Wowlock]

Either Julia is showing the Eugene side of her or Eugene is trying to be 'helpful' in his own way but hides as Julia because he is a coward that cannot face his problems without deception.

As for Roy's conscience, it is better to go out being true to yourself. As he said, there aren't anyone else stepping up to the plate to save the world and even the Gods just plan to 'reset'

[PontificatusRex]

Ooh, that's Eugene all right. Definitely trying to communicate with Roy without falling into their old patterns. I think we're finally seeing him show some vulnerability because he's hiding behind Julia's face. Looks like Dad is getting some character development too.

[Onyavar]

So, what might happen next page? They say goodbye, and Roy tells her: by the way, next time don't show up in disguise?

[theNater]

First Julia wanted Roy to save her, now she wants Sunny to save her. That's consistent.

Yes, her desires are consistent. But she's lying about it in this strip, claiming that her desire is to save the world, at any cost, rather than just herself. And for some reason, many people in this thread seem to want Roy to engage with her lie as if it was an honest position.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I'm really torn on the "This is secretly Eugene" theory. On the one hand, so many parts of the dialogue really strongly point to the possibility, to the point it almost loops around to looking like a red herring for how obvious it is.

On the other hand, while the literal construction of dialogue has hints of Eugene's presence, "THAT'S EASY FOR YOU TO SAY!" as a mask-slip moment feels emotionally super out of character for Eugene, doesn't it? I mean, he might have a slight preference for Roy successfully killing Xykon, but he said it himself on the boat trip towards Dwarven land, he's really not invested in avoiding the gods exploding the world. And he knows they'll do that if Xykon wins! He has no reason to be any less chill about the outcome now than he was in that conversation. The level of anger and anguish displayed here doesn't seem like someone trying to slightly speed the timetable on something they've already been waiting years for, they sound like someone who's genuinely freaked out by the idea of the world ending.

Or maybe Eugene had some offscreen character development and really cares what happens to his kids now. I'unno.

[Riftwolf]

Ok:

So 1273 was the "It's not Julia it's Sabine" strip

And 1274 is the "It's not Julia it's Eugene" strip


Can we open a book on who it will be instead of Julia instead of 1275?



My money is on "It's not Julia it's one of the Flumphs", with a hedge on "It's not Julia it's That Guy With The Halberd"


Or, as we're going for insane fan theories "It's not Julia it's Serini" because she is testing out what the groups ethical limits are before deciding to really help them or not

Next strip is Julia-616. The Snarl opened the Juliaverse.

[arimareiji]

So, what might happen next page? They say goodbye, and Roy tells her: by the way, next time don't show up in disguise?

Now I want this theory to be true, just to see Roy make a crack about not knowing Eugene was into cosplaying teenage schoolgirls. (^_~)

(precedent, panel 6)

[Wraithfighter]

My usual objections to someone being hypocritical involve them using political or social influence to take a prominent stand against a thing that I think is entirely unobjectionable, and which they themselves are doing. A common example is the politicians and religious leaders who stir up anti-LGBTQ prejudice while themselves not only indulging in exactly that kind of activity, but also taking advantage of their advanced resources to try to hide it. I don't care that they're LGBTQ; I care that they're hurting innocent people in the course of falsely claiming legitimacy in a group of people who have harmful prejudices.

This is a good example of this, because of the whole "if your biggest problem is the hypocrisy" part.

Would them stirring up anti-LGBTQ prejudice suddenly become better if they weren't taking part of that kind of activity?

Yes, its an added bit of bad that they're doing, again, not saying "hypocrisy is not bad at all" here. But the main point is that they're being horrible for stirring up that prejudice in the first place. That's the worst part, that's the horrible part, them being LBGTQ themselves is the cherry on top.

And again, as for Julia? I've seen nothing to indicate that, if her skills were required to save the world, she would hide away from it. That question has not been posed, its not remotely fair for her to be sneered at as a hypocrite for being terrified of fighting a bloody Lich.

[Larsaan]

Alternately, the reason "Julia" was flustered at the idea of physically contributing was that she was actually Eugene, who is barred from doing anything of the sort.

[Fish]

"Well, then I guess I'll be dead and it won't be my problem any more!"
"That's easy for you to say!"

Yes. Definitely Eugene. Because Eugene is dead, and it is still his problem.

[Ruck]

This is a good example of this, because of the whole "if your biggest problem is the hypocrisy" part.

Reminds me of this great clip (RIP):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes, her desires are consistent. But she's lying about it in this strip, claiming that her desire is to save the world, at any cost, rather than just herself. And for some reason, many people in this thread seem to want Roy to engage with her lie as if it was an honest position.

So I've considered Julia as Julia, Eugene, and Sabine, and I think my opinion is that this line is troubling for every alignment... and therefore does not favor any particular candidate. Julia remains the null hypothesis, but I'm still in the Eugene camp, because of other evidence.

[Crusher]

"Yes, Zz'dtri is dead. That means, he's in the hands of the IIFC. That means, he's the vessel they were talking about. It's Sabini possessing Zz'dtri's dead soul pretending to be another well-known dead soul pretending to be Julia on the IIFC's orders. What else."

Better?

Yes!

Sounds good now.

[silver-alex]

I literally created this account so I could reply, something I never done before, just to say that this is obviously Eugene. The strongest hint is not just that "Julia" says "being stuck up here.." and ".. my.. family's duties... I feel so useless", but right after that, Roy corrects her saying that since he's at the north pole, he's higher than everyone else, thus "up here" doesnt makes sense.

And what's "julia's" reaction? A snarky remark about how she's glad to provide a brain that hasn't been hit so much. That snarky remark is what seals the deal for me. It's Eugene saying "wow, after the 'up here' comment and the heartfelt mention of the blood oath, Roy didn't realize it's me. My boy may be dumb. I'm glad that at least I can use my brains to give him insights".

[KorvinStarmast]

Reminder that Julia is fully onboard with Roy's "protect one child from harm" stance when she is the child in question
.

Is that enlightened self interest, or just self interest? Given that she is an overindulged and spoiled teenager, I'll go with the latter.

I think the ox is saying that since Julia never said "you can't endanger me, I'm a child!" just "what, no, I'm not volunteering to get involved!" there is no hypocrisy in her suggesting using Sunny as cannon fodder.

She's a wizard. They use others as a matter of course. (In her family).

"Well, then I guess I'll be dead and it won't be my problem any more!"
"That's easy for you to say!"
Yes. Definitely Eugene. Because Eugene is dead, and it is still his problem.

OK, that's not a bad point for making my one quataloo bet look a little better.

[Wraithfighter]

Reminds me of this great clip (RIP):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljaP2etvDc4

Aye, that's a fantastic clip to emphasize the point. "He might have been a horrible human being that victimized a large number of people, but at least he was ideologically consistent about it!" isn't something anyone should be thinking...

[theNater]

Yes, its an added bit of bad that they're doing, again, not saying "hypocrisy is not bad at all" here.

While hypocrisy isn't the worst of it, it's uniquely annoying because of the way it destroys conversations.

You can't convince the hypocrite to change their position through evidence and reason, because they already know their position is wrong. They'll just keep repeating debunked talking points and/or pretending to be unaware of the obvious. Sometimes they'll pretend they could be convinced, but only to waste other people's time.

If you ignore them or dismiss them out of hand, they'll throw a tantrum; insisting that their bad-faith positions be given the same respect and consideration as other people's good-faith positions, and pretending not to know the difference. Sometimes they'll even imply that nobody is arguing in good faith, just to muddy the waters.

If you point out their hypocrisy, they throw a whole different tantrum; treating it as a personal attack rather than the simple factual observation that it is. They're just trying to win sympathy because, again, they know that can't argue their position on the merits.

In the end, you really just have to converse around them, which is a pain in the neck when all you're trying to do is have a nice little discussion.

[Tubercular Ox]

I literally created this account so I could reply, something I never done before, just to say that this is obviously Eugene. The strongest hint is not just that "Julia" says "being stuck up here.." and ".. my.. family's duties... I feel so useless", but right after that, Roy corrects her saying that since he's at the north pole, he's higher than everyone else, thus "up here" doesnt makes sense.

And what's "julia's" reaction? A snarky remark about how she's glad to provide a brain that hasn't been hit so much. That snarky remark is what seals the deal for me. It's Eugene saying "wow, after the 'up here' comment and the heartfelt mention of the blood oath, Roy didn't realize it's me. My boy may be dumb. I'm glad that at least I can use my brains to give him insights".

Welcome! I can actually hear Eugene saying that, and I don't know what his voice sounds like. Maybe a little like Redd Foxx

[Doug Lampert]

She was third level as far as Roy knew in #485.

Now, Sending is normally a 5th level Sor/Wiz spell (i.e., character level 9 or higher), but - presuming it's her - she did say she'd lowered the spell level of her blood oath-fuelled version in #1192. Still, even a 3rd level spell would require her to be character level 5. And since she's cast it twice in one day (again, presuming it's her), she'd need another level to cast it the second time unless she was an Evocation specialist like V.

As a default, always assume all effectively all full casters built as a PC get a bonus spell of every level they have spells at with. This is not hard to arrange.

An NPC built with the elite array has some trouble at exactly level 11 (worse starting array and less money), but is otherwise fine till level 15-19 where he again has trouble.

Wizards get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level, and I don't think the crafting time is that long. Also, high casting stat (usually) results in bonus slots, and that assumes she's not a specialist in whatever school Blood Oath Sending is.

Assuming minimum allowed caster level and a wizard.
A scroll of a level 1 to 4 spell is one day to write, in fact, you'll probably put several spells on the scroll so as to not waste time.
Levels 5 and 6 take 2 days.
Levels 7 and 8 take 3 days.
A level 9 scroll takes 4 days.

[arimareiji]

I literally created this account so I could reply, something I never done before, just to say that this is obviously Eugene. The strongest hint is not just that "Julia" says "being stuck up here.." and ".. my.. family's duties... I feel so useless", but right after that, Roy corrects her saying that since he's at the north pole, he's higher than everyone else, thus "up here" doesnt makes sense.

And what's "julia's" reaction? A snarky remark about how she's glad to provide a brain that hasn't been hit so much. That snarky remark is what seals the deal for me. It's Eugene saying "wow, after the 'up here' comment and the heartfelt mention of the blood oath, Roy didn't realize it's me. My boy may be dumb. I'm glad that at least I can use my brains to give him insights".

I'll admit that I was solely joking when I said I want this theory to be true so we can get Roy busting on Eugene for cosplaying as a magic-wielding girl (maybe "Next time try a better disguise, Sailor Moon").

But you definitely have a point... "up here" (and Roy taking the time to call it out), i.e. possibly "in the clouds", actually has me considering it not only plausible but even "not-unlikely".

[Riftwolf]

Did Sabine and Serini merge?

Hold on.... If (Sab)ine, Se(rin)i and Juli(a) merge we get

Sabrina the Teenage Witch! It all fits! Melissa Joan Hart will defeat the Snarl!