Con-Artist Party?

[Drakevarg]

Yesterday after like three months of assorted disruptive nonsense (covid, Thanksgiving, work schedules, Christmas, more sickness, family dinners...) that cancelled session after session, I finally got to meet up with my gaming group (what's left of it, for now) and began discussing CharGen for my new Pathfinder campaign. After looking over my intro document and flipping through a few books, my players decided they would be playing a pair of 'dwarven' (technically drow, but setting lore) con-artist mage siblings. One will be a Mesmerist, the other an Occultist with abjuration/divination as their starting implements. I had a third player join post-session last night, but don't know what they'll be rolling yet.

Thing is, I've not had a party of con-artists before. I don't really know what to do with them plot-wise. If they were outright thieves it'd be relatively easy; a heist is basically just a more methodical dungeon crawl. But a basic formula of "find mark -> Bluff check -> profit" isn't going to keep a campaign running even if I do add a few extra steps along the way. So I wanted to come here and get some advice for running stories for this kind of party that doesn't just involve hammering them forcefully into a more hero-shaped mold.

[zlefin]

The first thing is to talk directly to the players about your problem; they may have some ideas for the kind of things they'd like to do with their chars in terms of adventures. It also may be possible to do just do a couple regular cons for a session or two while you develop the characters and they get a better sense of them (depending on their style, some peopl elike to develop their chars in play). The players need to have some long term goals for their chars in order to fit a suitable adventure to them.

Do you make your own adventures wholly, or do you do adventure paths? Or sometimes mix in single shot published adventures with your overall story? There are probably some that could be adapted well to less combat oriented party.

While I'm not familiar with them; there are 'long cons', cons that are designed to pan out over a period of years and require lots of setup for a very big payoff. Though I'm not sure if that's the standard term for them as I'm not finding it on tvtropes. Looking up some of those could find a good campaign design. For instance a long con to get you married to some high noble/monarch, that'd require a lot of setup and conning many people to get their family on your side and such, after all marriage is a very big choice, and there are undoubtedly competing suitors, forging evidence that you're a noble and/or important enough to marry.

There are some tv shows in the past few decades that heavily focus on con artists; cribbing plots or arcs or setups from them might work. This is what came up when I googled for some:
https://tvshowpilot.com/fun-posts/be...tist-tv-shows/

[Drakevarg]

The first thing is to talk directly to the players about your problem; they may have some ideas for the kind of things they'd like to do with their chars in terms of adventures. It also may be possible to do just do a couple regular cons for a session or two while you develop the characters and they get a better sense of them (depending on their style, some peopl elike to develop their chars in play). The players need to have some long term goals for their chars in order to fit a suitable adventure to them.

Certainly can bring it up during the next round of CharGen, I'd just like to figure out in the meantime a basic model for translating the con artist archetype into more familiar terms. Breaking down the nuts and bolts of the concept so I can tinker with them, so to speak.

Do you make your own adventures wholly, or do you do adventure paths? Or sometimes mix in single shot published adventures with your overall story? There are probably some that could be adapted well to less combat oriented party.

I write everything from scratch.

While I'm not familiar with them; there are 'long cons', cons that are designed to pan out over a period of years and require lots of setup for a very big payoff. Though I'm not sure if that's the standard term for them as I'm not finding it on tvtropes. Looking up some of those could find a good campaign design. For instance a long con to get you married to some high noble/monarch, that'd require a lot of setup and conning many people to get their family on your side and such, after all marriage is a very big choice, and there are undoubtedly competing suitors, forging evidence that you're a noble and/or important enough to marry.

Another thing that makes this difficult is that while your typical hero is reactionary, one is generally not forced by circumstance to take up a long con. I can dangle potential in front of them but it's difficult to outright declare "this is what we're doing" until the party has voluntarily dug their heels in.

There are some tv shows in the past few decades that heavily focus on con artists; cribbing plots or arcs or setups from them might work. This is what came up when I googled for some:
https://tvshowpilot.com/fun-posts/be...tist-tv-shows/

Hm, well I have watched Burn Notice. My main trouble there is that the characters in that show are all veteran agents of some description and my players are just starting out. I'll skim the list for alternatives and see if anything jumps out at me.

[Peat]

Another thing that makes this difficult is that while your typical hero is reactionary, one is generally not forced by circumstance to take up a long con. I can dangle potential in front of them but it's difficult to outright declare "this is what we're doing" until the party has voluntarily dug their heels in.

You could prep around a "you owe a massive debt to X and he has named Y as the price" scenario to begin with. Or been blackmailed, or they've found the person who ripped off their family etc.etc.

This really does feel like a talk to the players scenario. But if they are hazy and know they want to do heists but not a lot else then -

Pick some sort of long running arc. Revenge, clearing a debt, finding a lost relative - something to tie it together

Have a bunch of useful NPCs who provide info and services and, crucially, banter and occasional small quests in return for giving aid

Set up a lot of "no matter how well you roll, they won't be bluffed unless you do X" obstacles and have those solved by clever uses of magic/facts found by investigating or talking to NPCs to add complexity

And send in the goons and make them get their way out from time to time to mix it up

[Drakevarg]

This really does feel like a talk to the players scenario.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more it's clear that getting some kind of player-defined long-term goal is going to be needed. Con artist is a good pick for "why are you adventuring in general," since it's the kind of lifestyle that isn't inclined to just stay home and keep their head down. It's just difficult to plan for in and of itself.

But if they are hazy and know they want to do heists but not a lot else then -

Pick some sort of long running arc. Revenge, clearing a debt, finding a lost relative - something to tie it together

"Someone you previously scammed put a bounty on your heads" comes to mind, but it'd likely put them on the road and make me come up with new settlements every other session. Good formula for an episodic story, just seems like a pain in the butt.

[Rynjin]

Watch The Road to El Dorado, shamelessly poach a general campaign structure.

[Telonius]

Plot item: the PCs have been running a "Nigerian prince" scam. The Prince in question actually shows up on a diplomatic mission. The players must now figure out how to get out of the situation with their heads still attached to their bodies. (Twist: they find evidence that the Prince is also a con artist running a much more elaborate scheme).

[Batcathat]

I've been rewatching Hustle (the BBC show) lately, which contains a ton of examples of classic (and not so classic) cons. I also think it's just a really fun show in general, so it's well worth a watch.

For added convenience, there's a (supposedly? Maybe it's a con?) official Youtube channel with all episodes on it, so anyone should be able to watch it for free.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rynjin
Watch The Road to El Dorado, shamelessly poach a general campaign structure.

My absolute favorite non-Disney animated movie. More of an object lesson in how to not run a con but end up as heroes anyway, which could work well for an introductory story arc.

[Rynjin]

My absolute favorite non-Disney animated movie. More of an object lesson in how to not run a con but end up as heroes anyway, which could work well for an introductory story arc.

I think it works well as a later twist as well. There's plenty of con artists and criminals out there who became famous and respected because of their cons, before things came crashing down. You could potentially do that without the crash.

"Fake it 'til you make it" is a really fun riff to run with for a con artist party, where they sort of keep unintentionally doing good wherever they go and get hailed as heroes because of it. Maybe their first big con is like an absolute scumbag of a lord, and everyone cheers his downfall, that kind of thing.

Just generally lean into the "criminals becoming folk heroes" vibe like Robin Hood or Arsene Lupin (and his totally real descendant, Lupin III).

[Drakevarg]

Second CharGen session today, got a chance to talk to my players about their intentions. Fortunately, it looks like the con-artist thing is more going to be a side gig, and their main schtick is going to be the much-easier-to-write-for role of treasure hunters. Player #3 is going with gnome alchemist. So this is undoubtedly going to be a shenanigans-filled campaign but fairly normal aside from that.