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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Looking at the classic killer gnome/shadowcraft illusionist build in the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook, it boasts the Miracle trick at 12th level. How can this build use ANY 9th level spell slots at 12th level? Whether it is for straight up normal casting or for the Heighten Spell trick to bring your Silent Image from 1st (or cantrip) all the way to 9th level?

    Here is the build:

    The Iconic Shadowcraft Illusionist: Illusionist 10/Master Specialist 4/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5.

    Spoiler
    Show

    Level Class Level Feat(s)

    1 Gnome Illusionist 1 Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, [school mastery, focused specialist, Fighter bonus feats]
    2 Illusionist 2
    3 Illusionist 3 Earth Sense
    4 Illusionist 4
    5 Illusionist 5 Heighten Spell
    6 Master Specialist 1 Earth Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
    7 Shadowcraft Mage 1
    8 Shadowcraft Mage 2
    9 Shadowcraft Mage 3 Residual Magic
    10 Shadowcraft Mage 4
    11 Shadowcraft Mage 5
    12 Master Specialist 2 Arcane Disciple (luck)
    13 Master Specialist 3 Greater Spell Focus (illusion)
    14 Master Specialist 4
    15 Mindbender 1 [Feat]
    16 Illusionist 6
    17 Illusionist 7
    18 Illusionist 8 [Feat]
    19 Illusionist 9
    20 Gnome Illusionist 10



    This character gets just about everything discussed in this guide. She enters Shadowcraft Mage a level early and can be casting shadow miracles by level 12. From that point on, she can use the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle (via shadow miracle) to change her feats on a whim.

    In all honesty, this build, played to the hilt, is almost certainly too strong for any real campaign. Trust me, I've tried. Walking around with an unlimited number of miracles at level 12 (9 with flaws) removes too many decision points from the game. It's not that everything looks like a nail when all you have a is hammer. It's that you're walking around with a magical hammer that turns every problem into a nail.



    I could see how a character with Divine Metamagic might boost a spell to 9th but I see no cleric levels or DMM feats in this build. What am I missing or not understanding here?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Well, for one, the shadow miracle trick doesn't actually work. Something being on "your class list" does not make it a "sorcerer or wizard" spell, even if you happen to be a sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would not actually be necessary for you to take Arcane Disciple (Luck) yourself, merely to prove that someone somewhere had taken it.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    Well, for one, the shadow miracle trick doesn't actually work. Something being on "your class list" does not make it a "sorcerer or wizard" spell, even if you happen to be a sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would not actually be necessary for you to take Arcane Disciple (Luck) yourself, merely to prove that someone somewhere had taken it.
    Ok, point taken. I am not actually arguing in favor of the build or anything. It is just that it is a very famous build and I am trying to understand some things about it.

    So, even if we forget the Miracle trick, how would the character be able to cast ANY 9th level spells at 12th level? I understand the Heighten a Silent Image spell to 9th (or 10th level with Earth Spell) - I get that part...but where are the spell slots coming from?

    The feats: Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic or potentially both? Even if you could sell your DM on feats from Dragon Magazine...which is debatable, the handbook argues that they should stack. But even if you did use these two feats, neither one of these two feats are included in the above "classic" build.

    So does anybody know or understand what is supposed to be going on here?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    smile Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    I suspect that the build is using Residual Magic to double dip heighten spell.

    Not sure that this would work or, as I suspect, only the biggest bonus would apply.

    With that said, with a different set of metamagic cost reductions, this can work, just that exact built is questionable. (well assuming that Arcane Disciple works in general... Miracle becomes a wizard spell for YOU, which seems good enough, but I know this point is debated)
    Last edited by Rebel7284; 2023-01-28 at 02:00 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    I suspect that the build is using Residual Magic to double dip heighten spell.

    Not sure that this would work or, as I suspect, only the biggest bonus would apply.

    With that said, with a different set of metamagic cost reductions, this can work, just that exact built is questionable. (well assuming that Arcane Disciple works in general... Miracle becomes a wizard spell for YOU, which seems good enough, but I know this point is debated)
    Hmmm...that seems plausible.

    Round one: cast Silent Image - heightened to 6th level (your highest level spell you can cast at 12th level)

    Round two: cast Silent Image again using 1st level spell slot, it is automatically heightened to 6th but doesn't cost you any higher level spell slot than 1st. Now you heighten it AGAIN using a 4th level slot and your total is now 9th level spell. (Or 10th with Earth Spell)

    Now you can use Shadowcraft Mage - Shadow Illusion (SU) ability to mimic any 9th level or lower Conjuration (summoning or creation) or Evocation Spell.

    Its an interesting theory, but nowhere is this explained in that way, or at least nowhere that I could find after reading the handbook many times.
    Last edited by Aceon; 2023-01-28 at 02:20 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Earth Spell is the standard method used by the Shadowcraft Gnome for heightening beyond the level of the slot. Though I think you need to also stack on a couple of other tricks for Miracle at 12th level-- It's been a while since I've looked over it. But of course, like any other optimization trick, there are different degrees to which it can be done, with different effects.

    Well, for one, the shadow miracle trick doesn't actually work. Something being on "your class list" does not make it a "sorcerer or wizard" spell, even if you happen to be a sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would not actually be necessary for you to take Arcane Disciple (Luck) yourself, merely to prove that someone somewhere had taken it.
    It makes it a sorcerer or wizard spell for you. It doesn't matter if anyone else has ever taken Arcane Disciple (Luck), only whether you have.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    It makes it a sorcerer or wizard spell for you. It doesn't matter if anyone else has ever taken Arcane Disciple (Luck), only whether you have.
    Great. Then I can learn it when I pick a new 9th level spell leveling up, and we don't need the whole Shadow Illusion business. Of course, we don't actually believe that, despite the language of "how does a Wizard learn new spells" and "what spells can Shadow Illusion duplicate" being the same. For the shadow miracle trick to work you have to believe that A) you have a personal version of your class list that still counts as a class list B) stuff implicitly points there without mentioning it C) only the stuff that's memetically established as acceptable cheese in the char-OP community points there. Those premises aren't at all supported by the rules, and you can tell they aren't because no one relies on them except in this one extremely specific context.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    Great. Then I can learn it when I pick a new 9th level spell leveling up, and we don't need the whole Shadow Illusion business. Of course, we don't actually believe that, despite the language of "how does a Wizard learn new spells" and "what spells can Shadow Illusion duplicate" being the same. For the shadow miracle trick to work you have to believe that A) you have a personal version of your class list that still counts as a class list B) stuff implicitly points there without mentioning it C) only the stuff that's memetically established as acceptable cheese in the char-OP community points there. Those premises aren't at all supported by the rules, and you can tell they aren't because no one relies on them except in this one extremely specific context.
    I appreciate your passion, but let's not argue this point. Realistically, there is no way to pull this off without your DM's approval. Any trick or grey area is going to either be approved or not approved by your DM.

    What I am asking for and what this thread is about is...how to understand what is supposed to be going on here. Not asking if you think it should work or should be allowed. I don't quite understand the mechanics and was hoping someone here would be able to explain it to me.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Great. Then I can learn it when I pick a new 9th level spell leveling up, and we don't need the whole Shadow Illusion business.
    Yes, of course. That's the usual use case for the Arcane Disciple feat. Except that won't let you get Miracle until 17th level, and you'd still need to pay the XP costs, at which point it's not much different from the Wish spell that any old wizard could get.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    smile Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceon View Post
    Hmmm...that seems plausible.

    Round one: cast Silent Image - heightened to 6th level (your highest level spell you can cast at 12th level)

    Round two: cast Silent Image again using 1st level spell slot, it is automatically heightened to 6th but doesn't cost you any higher level spell slot than 1st. Now you heighten it AGAIN using a 4th level slot and your total is now 9th level spell. (Or 10th with Earth Spell)

    Now you can use Shadowcraft Mage - Shadow Illusion (SU) ability to mimic any 9th level or lower Conjuration (summoning or creation) or Evocation Spell.

    Its an interesting theory, but nowhere is this explained in that way, or at least nowhere that I could find after reading the handbook many times.
    That wording seems confusing, this is a wizard, you don't cast and then apply metamagic, you prepare with metamagic. So yeah, you prepare a Silent Image Heightened to 6 and another Silent Image Heightened to 4 and cast them back to back in any order.

    Even if this works at all, I am not sure if you can double dip Earth Spell too or not to lower the slot cost further.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Yes, of course. That's the usual use case for the Arcane Disciple feat. Except that won't let you get Miracle until 17th level, and you'd still need to pay the XP costs, at which point it's not much different from the Wish spell that any old wizard could get.
    miracle is way better than wish because all the normal spell-emulation you want to do doesn't cost XP. But that's not really the point. The point is that if I can learn it normally, we've now read out 1/day limit of Arcane Disciple, and if I can't we've now read in that this limitation applies to spells you could already learn. Hope Shadowcraft Mages didn't want to prepare spell turning more than once per day!

    And even beyond all that, you're still dodging the actual question, which is where the hell it says anything that suggests that you have a personal sorcerer/wizard list that is interchangeable with the real sorcerer/wizard lists in contexts that transparently do not say anything to suggest that they are talking about personal lists. If you want to accept that all the other things that follow from Arcane Disciple "really" putting miracle on the sorcerer/wizard list, that's fine. I think that's a consistent interpretation of the rules, just one that breaks a whole bunch of stuff. But there's no consistent interpretation where it matters a whit whether you are the one who took Arcane Disciple or not.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceon View Post
    I appreciate your passion, but let's not argue this point. Realistically, there is no way to pull this off without your DM's approval. Any trick or grey area is going to either be approved or not approved by your DM.

    What I am asking for and what this thread is about is...how to understand what is supposed to be going on here. Not asking if you think it should work or should be allowed. I don't quite understand the mechanics and was hoping someone here would be able to explain it to me.
    Shadowcraft mages have a "shadow illusion" class feature that in essence allows them to convert figment (think minor image) into equivalent level Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spell. Shadowcraft Mage combos rely on a number of rule ambiguities to do absurd things with this feature.

    First, they argue that heighten spell increases the power of the spells that the resulting effect can mimic. For example, a Shadow Conjuration spell can mimic third level or lower spells. Similarly, a 4th level converted figment can mimic a 3rd level lower spell. Shadowcraft Mage combos argue that a 4th level figment heightened to lvl 9 can mimic 8th level or lower spells (unlike the actual Dhaow Conjuration spell, which can only mimic level 3, even if heightened).

    Second, they argue that a spell can be increased beyond lvl 9.

    Third, many variations use interpretations of metamagic rules to push low level spell slots to pvl 10 or above. The one I have seen relies on using 1 MM feat (heighten) multiple times (as opposed to using it once with scaling level adjust as in the PHB).

    Finally, they argue that the reference to Sorceror/Wizard spells means any spell any wizard could ever cast ( even from feats etc.)

    Putting these pieces together, the Shadowcraft Mage heightens a 0 level spell to level 10 with minimal change to the spell slot used. They then use that spell to mimic Miracle.

    Please let me know if you have any questions or if I made an error.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    I actually don't think you can really argue that the "Heightened silent image" trick doesn't work. Heighten is quite explicit that the spell "has a higher spell level than normal" and that it raises "the effective level of the spell" for "all effects dependent on spell level". It even goes so far as to call out DC as something it increases, and I don't really see how you can differentiate the language of spell DCs ("the spell level") from that of Shadow Illusion ("one level lower than the illusion spell") without some deeply unreasonable hair-splitting. You'd effectively be arguing, as far as I can tell, that not explicitly saying "the illusion spell's spell level" means that this one spell level-related property is completely unaffected by Heighten, and that just doesn't pass the smell test.

    And, in fairness to the Gnome, that's really all the PrC needs to be quite good. That, plus Signature Spell, lets you cash in any spell you have prepared for any lower-level emulateable spell (or just silent image), which is a very solid trade for a couple of feats a three levels worth of PrC. The metamagic shenanigans I think mostly work, and in particular the best argument (that Heighten can't go past 9th) doesn't really matter for the Shadowcraft Mage who merely wants to get to emulate 8th level spells early, rather than claim 150% real illusions.

    The only part I really think is mechanically objectionable is the notion that you can make a spell into a sorcerer/wizard spell for just you and have Shadow Illusion care about that, which has no mechanical foundation that I have been able to find nor that anyone who defends shadow miracles has ever been able to present. The only version of the rules where it makes sense is one where every domain spell can be freely learned by Wizards, and where miracle is a legal Advanced Learning option for Warmages. Of course, no one wants to live in that world, they just like their memetic char-OP trick.
    Last edited by RandomPeasant; 2023-01-28 at 07:54 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    smile Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    <snip> The only version of the rules where it makes sense is one where every domain spell can be freely learned by Wizards <snip>
    My understanding is that RAW, a Wizard CAN scribe any arcane spell into their spellbook, but would be unable to cast it unless permitted by class or another ability.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fero View Post
    First, they argue that heighten spell increases the power of the spells that the resulting effect can mimic. For example, a Shadow Conjuration spell can mimic third level or lower spells. Similarly, a 4th level converted figment can mimic a 3rd level lower spell. Shadowcraft Mage combos argue that a 4th level figment heightened to lvl 9 can mimic 8th level or lower spells (unlike the actual Shadaow Conjuration spell, which can only mimic level 3, even if heightened).
    Based on the wording of the heighten spell feat, I believe this is in fact the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heighten Spell
    Benefit
    A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fero
    Second, they argue that a spell can be increased beyond lvl 9.
    Provided DM is aware of Epic spell casting rules then this would be feasible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fero
    Third, many variations use interpretations of metamagic rules to push low level spell slots to pvl 10 or above. The one I have seen relies on using 1 MM feat (heighten) multiple times (as opposed to using it once with scaling level adjust as in the PHB).

    Please let me know if you have any questions or if I made an error.
    Yes, the feats Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic and Earth Spell, in some combination might allow a 6th or 7th level spell slot to give the effect of a 10th level spell. Divine Metamagic can do the same.

    I am not questioning this at all, of course that would be up to a DM to decide if he will allow it in his game.

    My question was the specific and original build mentioned in the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook:

    The Iconic Shadowcraft Illusionist: Illusionist 10/Master Specialist 4/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5.

    at 12th level you get:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Level Class Level Feat(s)

    1 Gnome Illusionist 1 Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, [school mastery, focused specialist, Fighter bonus feats]
    2 Illusionist 2
    3 Illusionist 3 Earth Sense
    4 Illusionist 4
    5 Illusionist 5 Heighten Spell
    6 Master Specialist 1 Earth Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
    7 Shadowcraft Mage 1
    8 Shadowcraft Mage 2
    9 Shadowcraft Mage 3 Residual Magic
    10 Shadowcraft Mage 4
    11 Shadowcraft Mage 5
    12 Master Specialist 2 Arcane Disciple (luck)


    So your feats are:
    1 Spell Focus (illusion), Improved Initiative, [school mastery, focused specialist, Fighter bonus feats]
    2
    3 Earth Sense
    4
    5 Heighten Spell
    6 Earth Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
    7
    8
    9 Residual Magic
    10
    11
    12 Arcane Disciple (luck)

    While the feat "Earth Sense" is present, neither "Practical Metamagic" nor "Easy Metamagic" occur.

    So, unless I am missing something here, we only get a total of +1 spell slot with Earth Spell...and it costs us 2 feats!! With this set up we wont be capable of mimicking ANY 9th level spells until 17th level. At that point we can prepare a 9th level slot and with Earth Spell - Heighten it to 10th and then mimic a 9th level Conjuration (summoning or creation) or Evocation spell with our heightened Silent Image.

    As far as I can tell, this particular version of the build doesn't work at 12th level.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    @ Aceon,

    You hit the nail on the head saying all of this boils down to DM interpretation. I don't know all of the MM tricks used to Heighten low level spells to lvl 10. Frankly, I could never get passed the first rule issue as I felt the RAI was to make figments function as the Shadow X spells. That said, reasonable minds can differ. Either way, I am a little sad that most conversations on this beautiful class boil down to combos that, even if legal, probably won't be allowed in most games. I played a SM for a few years and assure you the class is plenty good without these combos (unless your DM is the sort to never allow illusions to work).

    As an aside, I started drafting a wizard handbook that will include a section on the classic Shadow X spells. It is far from complete but may be a useful resource if you are interested in this style of play: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...t?usp=drivesdk

    This chapter, also far from done, also gas some useful tools for an illusionist: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z4HgBpjipnEOGO8s15mwBwls24lggOLku78OMR3CFEY/edit?usp=drivesdk
    Last edited by Fero; 2023-01-29 at 09:57 AM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    I believe the way it works is that residual metamagic doesn’t specify that you have to heighten to the same amount, just that your next heighten is free. So you heighten silent image by 1, taking up a level 2 slot. Next turn, heighten spell is free, so you cast a silent image heightened by 8 using a 1st level slot, earth spell increases the heightening by another level so your silent image is level 10, at which point it can mimic a 9th level spell.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    My understanding is that RAW, a Wizard CAN scribe any arcane spell into their spellbook, but would be unable to cast it unless permitted by class or another ability.
    It depends which books you're using. Before the Rules Compendium, the Wizard could just put whatever they wanted in their spellbook and then cast it, as the only restriction on what spells a Wizard can prepare is that they're in her spellbook. There's something in the Rules Compendium that is supposed to stop that, but as I never felt the Rules Compendium was particularly worth bothering with, I don't know where the actual intervention is supposed to happen.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.
    Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level. It doesn't matter what else you attempt to bypass this restriction. The restriction cannot by bypassed. No one is casting a shadow miracle with heighten spell.

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Right, Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level, but Earth Spell increases it beyond what Heighten would do. Though it's not explicit whether the +1 from Earth Spell is applied before or after the cap of 9 from Heighten.

    Another point about shadow-casting tricks, by the way: Mettle works against them. The Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation line include a Will save to disbelieve, which results in lesser effects, and Mettle works on any Fort or Will save for lesser effects. So someone with a good Will save (or possibly True Sight or a really good Spot check) and Mettle can completely ignore shadow spells.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Right, Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level, but Earth Spell increases it beyond what Heighten would do. Though it's not explicit whether the +1 from Earth Spell is applied before or after the cap of 9 from Heighten.
    Nothing in Earth Spell says it removes the 9th lvl cap for Heighten. I think the only way to read that language into the feat would be to treat the effect of Earth Spell purely as a Substitution for the original Heighten Spell feat. However, in doing so, one removes the other interactions that allow you to supercharge Heighten. As such, you could mimic Miracle, but would need an actual 9th level slot.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    As I said earlier, the question of "can you shadow miracle" is honestly rather besides the point. Yes, Arcane Disciple doesn't make miracle emulatable. Yes, you can't Heighten to 10th level. But you don't need to do either of those things for the class to be abusively powerful. Even if "all" a 10th level Shadowcraft Mage is doing is turning a 0th level spell slot into a Shadow Illusion version of summon monster VIII , that is in fact already extremely powerful. And the only thing there I think you can plausibly object to is "Residual Magic requires you to Heighten by the same amount", but there's not anything there to indicate that's the case.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fero View Post
    @ Aceon,

    You hit the nail on the head saying all of this boils down to DM interpretation. I don't know all of the MM tricks used to Heighten low level spells to lvl 10. Frankly, I could never get passed the first rule issue as I felt the RAI was to make figments function as the Shadow X spells. That said, reasonable minds can differ. Either way, I am a little sad that most conversations on this beautiful class boil down to combos that, even if legal, probably won't be allowed in most games. I played a SM for a few years and assure you the class is plenty good without these combos (unless your DM is the sort to never allow illusions to work).
    Thanks, I am starting to appreciate the class. All tricks aside, I still can't figure out how any of the Handbook builds even qualify for the prestige class! No one mentions that Bluff & Hide are not Wizard or Sorceror skills. I understand that maybe one could take them as cross class skills, but I never thought you would have to do that just to get into the basics of the class! I thought perhaps being a Wizard specialist Illusionist might give you those 2 skills as they are thematically appropriate for an Illusionist, but I couldn't find that anywhere in the SRD. I thought maybe a Gnome just gets them as "always a class skill" but I couldn't find that either?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcraft Mage
    Requirements
    Race: Gnome
    Skills: Bluff 4 ranks , Hide 4 ranks
    Feats: Spell Focus (illusion)
    Spells: Able to cast at least three illusion spells, including at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher.
    Last edited by Aceon; 2023-01-29 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aceon View Post
    Thanks, I am starting to appreciate the class. All tricks aside, I still can't figure out how any of the Handbook builds even qualify for the prestige class! No one mentions that Bluff & Hide are not Wizard or Sorceror skills. I understand that maybe one could take them as cross class skills, but I never thought you would have to do that just to get into the basics of the class! I thought perhaps being a Wizard specialist Illusionist might give you those 2 skills as they are thematically appropriate for an Illusionist, but I couldn't find that anywhere in the SRD. I thought maybe a Gnome just gets them as "always a class skill" but I couldn't find that either?
    I think the drafters expected you to take them CC. Plenty of classes have similar CC requirements (check out Sand Shaper). That said, I think there is an illusionist ACF that gives you hide in the UA.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fero View Post
    I think the drafters expected you to take them CC. Plenty of classes have similar CC requirements (check out Sand Shaper). That said, I think there is an illusionist ACF that gives you hide in the UA.
    I found the answer. The handbook lists "The Iconic Shadowcraft Illusionist:" as the 1st build example. I assumed that was the original by Snow Savant. I was wrong. Perhaps the hand book is also wrong?

    Anyways, here is Snow's original build: Wizard5 / HarperMage2 / ShadowcraftMage5 / Shadowcrafter8

    Spoiler: The Killer Gnome, originally posted by snow_savant, August 10 2004:
    Show



    Totally killer Wizard build up ahead. Uses these PrC's: Harper Mage (MoF), Shadowcraft Mage (RoS), Shadowcrafter (Und).

    Wizard5 / HarperMage2 / ShadowcraftMage5 / Shadowcrafter8

    Yeah, you gotta be a Gnome ... but that's a good thing, because you get the +1 DC racial bonus that Gnomes get for Illusion spells. Which is this build's most awesome forte.

    And yes, Shadow Conjurations and Shadow Evocations are your bread-&-butter in this build. Which is good because they are extremely versatile spells that even have their own built-in cheese (see Minor/Major Creation Craft: Poisonmaking skill + Black Lotus Extract + 1 standard action casting time = Death a million times over).

    By level 19, you get +40% strength intensity added to *ALL* your SC & SE spells. Which means that your 9th level Shades spells are giving you 120% of the strength of the Conj/Evoc spells it is emulating. While your Greater SC/SE spells give you 100% and your normal SC/SE spells give you 60%.

    Part of the pre-req.'s for this build ential taking the sucky Spell Focus and GSF feats for Illusion ... which is actually something you want to do with Shadow spells anyway, due to their double save mechanics. Add in your racial save bonus, and that's +3 to your DC's. Add in Shadowcrafter's +4 Shadow Spell Penetration added to your +4 Spell Penetration (you should voluntarily take both SP and GSP feats), and enemy SR won't mean jack squat to your Shadow spells.

    Besides having all that amazing versatility, you have a ton of other amazing class abilities from this build.

    7 levels of Hide/Move Silently as class skills. 15 levels of Spot ... Stealth/Scout Mage!
    Cloak of Shadow = Gives up to a 40% miss chance to attacks due to concealment.
    Shadow Mien = +2 to Hide and Disguise Checks.
    +2 Saves vs. all Illusions and Effects.
    Extend Illusion = All Illusions are automatically doubled. Which is nice with Mass Reflective Disguise (24 hours duration!)[Und Book].
    Silent Illusion = All your illusion spells are now castable without verbal components! Yay! More stealth synergy.
    Shadow Illusion = Freakin' Amazing. All your Illusion/Figment spells are converted to Illusion/Shadow spells and can damage or effect creatures just as if they had the mechanics of the Shadow Evoc/Conj spells. For you creative types out there, this is some amazing flexibility you can get out of your low level figment spells (Silent & Minor Image, etc.). Which as I've stated before in the past, are pound-for-pound some of the most efficient & scaleable spells in the game.
    2 Knowledge Feats from Harper Mage. Always good.


    ***

    In summation, this is about as good as it gets for an Illusionist build that can actually go beyond scaring and confusing your foes ... into actually beating the royal crap out of them. That high level 120% strength mechanic for the Shades spell is just totally fabulous. And the versatility and utility you get from having access to the entire range of evocation and conjuration spells is just staggering.

    Mark one up for the Gnomes ... this build rules!

    XO,
    Snow

    P.S. You can also perform Shades/Dragon Ally brokenness as well. Build armies for nothing, blackmail things that shouldn't exist. It's all fun!


    Checking D&D Tools for Harper Mage they had a different set of Class skills. But checking the actual book, Magic of Faerun it shows both Hide & Bluff as class skills for the Harper Mage. So that answers that question.

    And yes, checking the ACF Illusionist in UA - there are 3 variants. One give hide as a class skill, so even without Harper Mage we can at least get that part. Without Harper Mage one still needs to find a way to get Bluff as a class skill if possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Shaper Illusionist ACF, UA
    An illusionist using this variant has a special bond with the Plane of Shadow, and gains several special abilities as he advances in level.

    At 1st level, Hide is treated as a class skill for the illusionist.
    Last edited by Aceon; 2023-01-29 at 09:52 PM.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPeasant View Post
    Well, for one, the shadow miracle trick doesn't actually work. Something being on "your class list" does not make it a "sorcerer or wizard" spell, even if you happen to be a sorcerer or wizard. If it did, it would not actually be necessary for you to take Arcane Disciple (Luck) yourself, merely to prove that someone somewhere had taken it.
    That's entirely moot when the Class ability uses "any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell." rather than copying the effects of shadow evocation and shadow illusion directly. This means they can use Any sorcerer or Wizard spell, not just spells off the wizard/sorcerer spell list.

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
    That's entirely moot when the Class ability uses "any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell." rather than copying the effects of shadow evocation and shadow illusion directly. This means they can use Any sorcerer or Wizard spell, not just spells off the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
    The issue is, what does "any Sorceror or Wizard spell" mean if not a reference to the wiz/sorc list. If it is a reference to any spell a wizard could ever cast, then the phrase " sorceror or wizard" is meaningless because wizard/sorcs can cast any spell (see e.g recaster). As such, the question is whether the clause "wizard or sorceror spell" refers to the spell lists, or just all spells on all class lists.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fero View Post
    The issue is, what does "any Sorceror or Wizard spell" mean if not a reference to the wiz/sorc list. If it is a reference to any spell a wizard could ever cast, then the phrase " sorceror or wizard" is meaningless because wizard/sorcs can cast any spell (see e.g recaster). As such, the question is whether the clause "wizard or sorceror spell" refers to the spell lists, or just all spells on all class lists.
    Except it's not.

    The spells rules themselves define a "[x class] spell" as "a spell that class can cast".

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Level
    The next line of a spell description gives the spell’s level, a number between 0 and 9 that defines the spell’s relative power. This number is preceded by an abbreviation for the class whose members can cast the spell.
    The bolded text is what is referenced whenever a rule calls out an [x class] spell. If this wasn't true, then by RAW nothing could count as a "class spell" for anything that wasn't a bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, or wizard do to the fact the rules only call out those spell types.

    Quote Originally Posted by redking View Post
    Heighten Spell is capped at 9th level. It doesn't matter what else you attempt to bypass this restriction. The restriction cannot by bypassed. No one is casting a shadow miracle with heighten spell.
    It can be bypassed actually.

    Use sanctum spell. It has no cap and has nothing to do with heighten, but still stacks with any other metamagic. You won't be casting any miracles in battle, but you'll still be able to cast them at home.
    Last edited by Promethean; 2023-01-30 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
    That's entirely moot when the Class ability uses "any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell." rather than copying the effects of shadow evocation and shadow illusion directly. This means they can use Any sorcerer or Wizard spell, not just spells off the wizard/sorcerer spell list.
    And like I said, there's a perfectly consistent interpretation of the rules where it works like that. But it's one that doesn't require you to personally take Arcane Disciple (Luck), and it's one where Warmages can choose miracle as an Advanced Learning option. My issue is not that you can't interpret things to make it work the way Shadow Gnome fans want it to, just that when people do so they do not follow their arguments to the logical conclusion.

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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: How to: Shadowcraft Illusionist - Killer Gnome Miracle trick?

    I think I finally understand the central question I was asking about how can the 9th level character cast 9th level spells? Its in the second part of the Shadowcraft Mage Handbook under the rather appropriately titled section: "On Breaking the Game" and discussed in the 1st part of the feat selections: Residual Magic
    Towards the end of this Residual Magic discussion you find:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcraft Mage Handbook, spoiler: On Breaking the Game
    Residual Magic doesn't track the degree of the metamagic feat that triggers it. That is, it doesn't remember that you Heightened the spell by 8 levels on round one, and thereby give you 8 levels of metamagic to play with. No, it's more, much more busted than that. It merely notes the specific metamagic feat used, then ignores the cost of that feat on the next round. If that's unclear, here's an example.

    Suppose you're a 10th level ScM (Wiz 7/ScM 3 with no sub-levels) and your 9th level feat was Residual Magic. On round one you cast a shadow illusion from a 2nd level slot in order to duplicate glitterdust. Residual Magic notes that you used Heighten Spell on silent image. On round two, Residual Magic reads its note from the previous round and makes Heighten Spell free for silent image this round. So you cast a shadow illusion from a 1st level slot, and Residual Magic heightens that to 9th level for free.

    (This is also true when using Enduring Potency from a wand.)
    I read this several times without truly grasping what he is trying to say here. I thought he was saying to use a 9th level spell slot to Heighten a Silent Image in Round One and then get those extra 8 levels of Metamagic for free in round two, which would seem to be the case and would be appropriate I believe. Powerful? Yes indeed, but appropriate for the feat I suppose.

    But that is not what he is saying. He is saying to use a 2nd level spell slot in round One, through the use of a 1st level spell, Silent Image, heightened only by one level of metamagic. Then, the Residual Metamagic in Round Two would use Heighten Spell for FREE to 9th level.

    So, the point is that we are NOT duplicating a 9th level spell in Round Two from a 9th level spell in Round One! No, no, no! We are not even required to be somehow able to get 9 levels of spell slots at all (say from Easy Metamagic +1 and Earth Spell +1 for a total of +2 spell levels...thus we would be a Spellcaster capable of at least 7th level spells and getting 2 spell levels for 3 feats to somehow get that 9th level slot which we would repeat for free in Round Two.

    Nope. He is saying we use a 2nd level slot in round ONE to get a 9th (or 10th) level slot in Round Two.

    I suppose the reason I couldn't understand this and couldn't wrap my brain around it is how wrong this is.

    I can get somehow getting a 7th level spell slot to go to a 9th level spell slot with a combination of 3 feats and putting all of your character resources into it. It makes just as much sense as a Cleric doing a Persistent Spell on a 6th level Spell for FREE with Divine Metamagic and spending Turn attempts. I can definitely get the concept because many years ago a played a cleric who did exactly that.

    But this interpretation of Residual Metamagic to get a free 9th level spell for free on the round after I cast a 2nd level spell? Now that I understand what he is saying I don't think I would even bother to ask my DM about it. I am not that much interested in his derision, nor am I am glutton for punishment.

    I think a fair interpretation of the effects of Residual Metamagic would be: You get the effect of what you did in Round One for free in Round Two. Even Heighten Spell. If you used ONE level of metamagic for Heighten Spell in Round One, you get the same ONE LEVEL of metamagic on Heighten Spell for free in Round Two.

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