Can Familiars Work as PCs?

[Palanan]

There are dozens of options for familiars in Pathfinder, and for a while now I’ve had the idea of a party of familiars kicking around on their own.

Most familiars seem to range broadly around CR 1/4 or less, and none of them were designed as PC races, so how much tinkering would be necessary for them to work as viable characters? How would you generate PC-appropriate ability scores, and how would you manage a more or less balanced party?

[ahyangyi]

Something to note:

• Almost all familiars have 0 ft. reach. Sure you can also play a pig, but perhaps not all players want to. (perhaps start at level 3 so everyone can use mauler if they want to?)
• Universally low Str, Int and Cha. I'd presume that Int is actually higher (6) because they are familiars, but Int-casters and Cha-casters are still out of question if we use the default stats.
• Many options can fly.

[Bohandas]

Something to note:

• Almost all familiars have 0 ft. reach. Sure you can also play a pig, but perhaps not all players want to. (perhaps start at level 3 so everyone can use mauler if they want to?)
• Universally low Str, Int and Cha. I'd presume that Int is actually higher (6) because they are familiars, but Int-casters and Cha-casters are still out of question if we use the default stats.
• Many options can fly.

The int can go well above human average if the master is high level

[Prime32]

Get them the Fey-Touched template and they can take human form, giving similar benefits to mauler.

A combination of the Prankster archetype and Magic Trick (mage hand) feat gives you some interesting options to build around, and is compatible with Improved Familiar.

[ahyangyi]

A question is, does OP want a humanoid form? Or was the premise really "use the familiar's shapes as is"?

After all, what's the point of having a party of cats and toads, if they always look like human?

[ngilop]

Yes

thought like any atypical race, one would have to get creative.


it is actually the basis for a charcater idea i submitted then posted LFG Here


Remember there are more than just animal familiars, you have magic beasts, constructs, small elementals, and basically any outsider that is tiny and CR 2 and under.

[ahyangyi]

I'm under the impression that the OP's idea was more about non-improved familiars. Cat & toad party is significantly different from an imp & quasit party.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ngilop, In Another Thread
…just a game that lets me play as a familiar, who somehow attained independence and goes forth to adventure on its own.

This is exactly what I’m going for—familiars who no longer have masters, and who are out facing the world on their own.

Originally Posted by ahyangyi
A question is, does OP want a humanoid form? Or was the premise really "use the familiar's shapes as is"?

And the idea is indeed to use the familiars’ natural forms, without any transformations.

Originally Posted by ahyangyi
Universally low Str, Int and Cha. I'd presume that Int is actually higher (6) because they are familiars, but Int-casters and Cha-casters are still out of question if we use the default stats.

One possibility is to keep the physical scores for each creature, but allow players to generate mental scores through rolling or point buy.

Beyond that, how would it work in practice? I’m thinking in terms of hit points, saves, etc. I like the concept, but need suggestions on how to make a party of familiars actually playable.

[Elvensilver]

I don't think a party of familiars would work at all by RAW - not if they aren't improved familiars or ravens/parrots.

The reason being communication.

By RAW, a familar can only speak with its master (by level 5) and others of its kind (by level 7). So a mixed party of different types of familary could never communicate, and even a party of - say - only hawk familars would have to wait until level 7 until they could speak with each other.

The problem could be handwaved away without trouble, though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Elvensilver
The problem could be handwaved away without trouble, though.

Yeah, I'm assuming this would be an easy issue to resolve.

I'm more concerned with whether a CR 1/8 squirrel and a CR 1/3 seal would be on an equal footing if they each had a class level. If they're both casting magic missile, does the discrepancy in CR really matter, or is it enough that it needs to be taken into account somehow?

[ngilop]

I don't think that fractional HD it even matters as both would get their only HD from their first class. SO that Toad warblade instead of getting 1/10 a HD gets a d12 HD, the 1/2 HD lizard likewise get a single d12 HD from warblade.

[Maat Mons]

I once played in a group with an Awakened Cat Sorcerer. The DM handwaved somatic components. But it could have worked by RAW with the Psychic bloodline. He had Mage Hand, and Awakened animals can talk, so he wasn't notably hampered.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ngilop
I don't think that fractional HD it even matters as both would get their only HD from their first class. SO that Toad warblade instead of getting 1/10 a HD gets a d12 HD, the 1/2 HD lizard likewise get a single d12 HD from warblade.

This sounds promising, thanks.

Did you ever work up your liminal sprite character concept? Just curious how that would work.

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
I once played in a group with an Awakened Cat Sorcerer. The DM handwaved somatic components. But it could have worked by RAW with the Psychic bloodline. He had Mage Hand, and Awakened animals can talk, so he wasn't notably hampered.

Are there any rules for awakened animals beyond what’s in the Awaken spell?

[bekeleven]

Back in the day, one of my friends ran a campaign where every player was playing small animals - I think the largest was a dog? The plot was that they were all familiars and animal companions of a party that had gone missing, and they had to find them.

However, that was the flavor. Mechanically they were all animals with class levels in various PC classes (and boosted Int, IIRC). They didn't use actual familiar/companion statblocks because that wouldn't have been conducive to play. As others are saying, familiars have pretty limited options, both in and out of combat, which makes sense as they were designed to supplement the options of other classes (that needed effectively nothing). The designers miscalculated a lot of things with respect to spellcasters, but they didn't miss the mark on familiars by such a wide margin that I'd want to play one in a campaign.

[ngilop]

This sounds promising, thanks.

Did you ever work up your liminal sprite character concept? Just curious how that would work.



Are there any rules for awakened animals beyond what’s in the Awaken spell?

NO, i just thought "what is humanoid and good" and my first glance came up with those 2. Once i actually looked at the full PF list, i was liek wow... there were a lot i could have selected from.

I think you would just do the ability score modifiers and go from there, and make sure weapons do tiny dmg (or small for the occasional small guy)

I thought WoTR would be the best way to do get it going as the mythic powers could easily make your familiar become independent since it does all kinds of bonkers things in lore. and that way sicne the gorup would be starting from the 2nd book, everybody could have levels underneath them even if they started as the CR 2 outsider variety.

Man, still wish a DM would do take that game idea up.


I only know of this for awakened animals There might be more and even better ones when you do a google search

[SangoProduction]

There are dozens of options for familiars in Pathfinder, and for a while now I’ve had the idea of a party of familiars kicking around on their own.

Most familiars seem to range broadly around CR 1/4 or less, and none of them were designed as PC races, so how much tinkering would be necessary for them to work as viable characters? How would you generate PC-appropriate ability scores, and how would you manage a more or less balanced party?

There's the Wraith archetype, Matagot, which is quite literally just "I am a familiar, meow." You can also create a "living sword," with the same class, with the Unbodied archetype. (Or you can use the Permanent Transformation feat for Object Transformation. Gives you a permanent unusual body type without giving you a bunch of weird racial frackery.)
Of course, the archetype says "Tiny-sized feline"... because it's from the "catgirl handbook"... shiver ... But that's literally just fluff. It works for squirrel, and such land-based creatures.
A reasonable DM would allow you to make use of the following transformations other than Animalistic Transformation: Object Transformation (living sword, as mentioned), Aquatic Transformation (seals, dolphins, fish), Avian Transformation (corvids, hawks, owls). And really, any other Transformation talent, since they each are equally accessible through Permanent Transformation feat one way or the other, and the class is just to give you familiar-like capabilities. (Though the class does notably make you Tiny size by default, unlike base Permanent Transformation, which doesn't change your size.)

Spheres of Power has a vast array of unusual options and ways to play.

[ahyangyi]

Yep, the catgirl handbook has a conversion guide to convert them to "normal" stuff, usually removing the "you can only choose cats" restrictions.

[Gruftzwerg]

To "complete" the idea to use "Awaken":

Craft Contingent Spell:
This allows you to place Awaken on the "familiars" and set the condition to "master's death". And IIRC you need Awaken twice to give it a truly free will, thus 2x CCS (Awaken).

edit: So, if you want your "familiar PC" to always have a backup-character for the case that he dies, make sure to have a familiar and access to CCS and Awaken ^^ (or buy it as a service)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg
And IIRC you need Awaken twice to give it a truly free will….

Can you point to any rules text on this?

[Gruftzwerg]

Can you point to any rules text on this?

Have a look at the PFSRD description of Awaken.

You awaken a tree or animal to human-like sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. If you cast awaken again, any previously awakened creatures remain friendly to you, but they no longer undertake tasks for you unless it is in their best interests.
...

[Prime32]

You can also create a "living sword," with the same class, with the Unbodied archetype. (Or you can use the Permanent Transformation feat for Object Transformation. Gives you a permanent unusual body type without giving you a bunch of weird racial frackery.)

That's what Spirit Blade is for - the Permanent Weapon Form rules cover a lot of the weird edge cases.

[Bohandas]

I don't think a party of familiars would work at all by RAW - not if they aren't improved familiars or ravens/parrots.

The reason being communication.

By RAW, a familar can only speak with its master (by level 5) and others of its kind (by level 7). So a mixed party of different types of familary could never communicate, and even a party of - say - only hawk familars would have to wait until level 7 until they could speak with each other.

Presumably they could write on the ground with a paw.

And definitely if the master has at least one language purchased as a skill

[SangoProduction]

That's what Spirit Blade is for - the Permanent Weapon Form rules cover a lot of the weird edge cases.

I was thinking about the use of item possession. But yeah... I did simply forget that there was that specific archetype... Even though it was actually used by one of my players in my fallen gods campaign. We did actually have to nerf the hardness down to just 1 / level (min 5), because it was actually a teeny bit too much reduction on top of the fact that he was often not even targeted on account of being a sword.

[False God]

Depends on the kind of game you want to run.

If you want a cutesy game of "animal companions go on an adventure" yeah I think they work fine, especially if you're not really doing levels and it's intended for a short game. Just take 'em straight out of the box and plop them on the table.

If you want a more high-powered, high-stakes game, long-term game, you'll probably find the animal companions base stats to be rather squishy.

That said, if you just take "bird" or "weasel" or "snake" and let players roll stats, just like they would for a PC, and let them add levels as they go along line normal, the animal chassis is not notably weaker than most PC races. They'll mostly be limited by the fact that they can't wield normal-size arms and armor, but since the game scales moderately well, a cat fighting a human (tiny to medium) isn't all that far off from a human fighting a dragon (medium to huge).

[Elvensilver]

I would like to point out movement modes and speed: the difference between, say, a turtle, a monkey and a bat is huge in actual play and might be difficult in one party.

Also, you have to consider what a familiar gets from their masters when comparing how familiars, and not just animals a caster could take as familiar, stack up against each other:

A familiar
- has half the master's TP (so hope your master is no elderly elf)
- uses his master's skill ranks (you want a wizard or witch, not some arcane bloodline sorcerer)

One could always, if one were to build a party of familiars, balance by weakening or strenghtening the masters. For example the raven, who can fly and talk could have a rather stupid (fewer skillpoints) and not-as-tough master...