tomboys and troublemakers part 4: the doom that is to come

[wilphe]

Makes sense what you say about Bruno and Bertelis, although having a mad captain might be useful at some point.

When we sight a Black Ark and Bertelis decides to try and board it?

When he insists we drop everything to chase after this white chaos whale that he thinks flipped him off?

When he starts going on and on and on about strawberries?

When he gets weirdly gender essentialist about everything to a degree considered obsessive even by Bretonnian standards?

[farothel]

I don't think the ship has any cannons or the ability to mount broadsides. Might be able to mount bow-chasers or a swivel mount somewhere once we acquire some cannons but I don't think we have them yet. So we don't need gunners at the moment. Jasmine will be the Bosun, I suppose. Makes sense what you say about Bruno and Bertelis, although having a mad captain might be useful at some point.

The Boatswain was in charge of the deck division and the small boats (if we have such), so that sort of makes sense since Jasmine has sail and row.

I'm okay being the captain, as even in Navies of that era it wasn't uncommon for nobles to simply buy a rank without having experience (they relied on the master and boatswain for that). And maybe Bramble will allow us to buy the sail skill out of career if we're going to use the ship for long.

EDIT: if the ship is a Cog, crew needed are between 30 and 45. Also looking at the list, my valet can be the steward I guess (or help in the kitchen). Purser is also an option, but I'm not sure we trust him enough to handle all the money.

[MrAbdiel]

When we sight a Black Ark and Bertelis decides to try and board it?

When he insists we drop everything to chase after this white chaos whale that he thinks flipped him off?

When he starts going on and on and on about strawberries?

When he gets weirdly gender essentialist about everything to a degree considered obsessive even by Bretonnian standards?

I’ve never felt so seen!

Bully can probably double as cook, for stereotypical reasons. With the number of horses and beasts below deck, I think Odmar will have his hands full. And Berthold can do what he does best - attend the Captain.

I did up an approximation of the running cost of a ship before… not based on historical reality but the hireling rules and the trade possibilities. I’ll dig it up later and we can see if there’s anything to salvage from it.

[MrAbdiel]

El Alborotador - The Troublemaker

A 60 ton Estalian Caravel, gifted to (Bretonnian Lord) after the marriage of one of his daughters to an Estalian Don with whom he was great friends.

CARGO CAPACITY: 60 Tons (100,000 Enc)
FIREPOWER: One Bolt Thrower, mounted on the Sterncastle.
EXTRA FEATURES: Two Launchboats, one each side, with an upper capacity of 20 and a 4 benches for 8 rowers each.
CREW:
1 - First Mate (Ex-Seaman, Mate)
1 - Pilot/Navigator (Ex-Seaman, Navigator)
20 - Sailors (Seaman)
COST TO RUN FOR A WEEK:
Food for crew (low rations for 7 days, 1 rum ration, 1 pint beer): 4GC, 8s.
Note: This presumes the ability to stop once a week and restock on fresh food, and that the starvation-rations are supplemented with fish caught daily.
Speculative cost for ship maintenance (ropes, repairs, etc): 2s
Note: This assumes normal running, with no catastrophes.
Crew Wages (Sailors): 40gc
Crew Wages (Pilot and Mate): 8gc
TOTAL: 52gc, 10s.

Ship Statistics: M 3, TB 8, Wounds 120 (Taking twenty minutes to switch lateen sails for square ones, move goes up to 5; but Sail checks to suddenly steer around or between obstacles is at -20%).

There it is - that's the ship I was going to pitch to borrow off one of Bertelis' relatives, though we won't need to!

I got to this starting with the Galleon listed in the Old World Armor and scaling down a bit.

	Standard Galleon	El Alborotador
Encumbrance	130,000	100,000
Minimum Crew	30	20
Passenger Cap.	90	~60?
M	3	3
TB	4	3
W	150	80

I've taken the "Passenger Capacity" to mean both potential passengers for fare, and also how much extra room their is for extra crew. Meanwhile, even though that's a decent cargo capacity, any ship we were using long term will need a semi-permenant set of stalls for the horses and beasts below, which should take up... maybe 30000 encumbrance worth of the cargo, at a guess.

I can't find where I did it before but I ran the numbers for a while on how much money we could make as we sailed about trading. There's rules for it in the various books, but it's possible we're making extra work for ourselves. Both because A) Sailing around the Old World making money trading is not what WFRP is about, and
B) This might be more easilly, and perhaps just as satisfyingly, resolved with a few haggle rolls from our prime hagglers at each port; and establishing what kind of profit margin we make after the crew is paid and fed. If we get into a hard situation on the sea and have to dump cargo or can't sell something we bring, we might have to dip into savings to pay them or face consequences.

[MrAbdiel]

Edit: I also can't find where we speculated how long it will take to sail to Mousillon. But I calc'd it again!



That's approximately 1172 nautical miles to travel to Mousillon. Internet tells me that most ships would travel between 20 and 30 miles per day typically; but would it be unrealistic to suggest that a magic ship that promotes good sailing condition could bang out 35? That would put us just shy of 33 days to get to Turrens Vigilance.

We'll have to stop 5 times, approximately once every 200 miles (ie, once a week) to pick up food and fresh water; every time at coastal villages and towns in Lyonesse. The last one is in "Old Mousillon" - that is, the northern part of Mousillon that was seized by Lyonesse after the False Grail affair and the fall of Mousillon as a Duchy. It's mostly uncursed now... mostly.

[dojango]

Edit: I also can't find where we speculated how long it will take to sail to Mousillon. But I calc'd it again!



That's approximately 1172 nautical miles to travel to Mousillon. Internet tells me that most ships would travel between 20 and 30 miles per day typically; but would it be unrealistic to suggest that a magic ship that promotes good sailing condition could bang out 35? That would put us just shy of 33 days to get to Turrens Vigilance.

Ah yes, thanks for charting a course directly through the Dragon's Maw, that should shave off a few days.

[MrAbdiel]

Ah yes, thanks for charting a course directly through the Dragon's Maw, that should shave off a few days.

Hahaha, well y'know I had to! the map makes it seem avoidable, but the lore is pretty specific that navigating the dragon's maw is the only way to travel around the coast (without getting way out towards Norsca), which is why you need an experienced captain who has done it before. It's also the first line of defense against Skaeling raiders. Since the lore says you gotta, I figured the space between must be too shallow or reefy or something.

EDIT: Or maybe ...not? Maybe we're supposed to go out and around it? Hrm. Here's the passage from Knights of the Grail:

The Dragon’s Maw is an area of the L’Anguille coast a day’s
travel from the border with Lyonesse. Dozens of sharp rocks rise
from the water, and the tides and currents raise a constant spray
from them, so that they look like teeth wreathed in smoke.
This is also the area most often hit by storms, with at least one
major storm striking every week. Sailors believe entering the
area is certain death, but they have no superstitions: the natural
features are quite dangerous enough.
However, traders have noticed that people travelling by land
within a few miles of the area also disappear. Indeed, no one
reliable has seen the area at all for over three years, and those
who have gone to look have not come back. The Duke will do
nothing, as it is on the coast, and the local lord is (now) a tenyear-
old boy. He will offer almost anything to adventurers who
can bring his father back.

That last line is the most gutting for me in all the lore books. Ten year old 'lord' of a cursed fief who just wants his dad to come home. Damn.

Edit Edit: But upon closer inspection, it looks like the lore and the map clash. The Lore says it's hugging the coast of L'anguille near to the Lyonesse border; it also says sailors treat it as certain death (and therefore surely sail into the open sea around out). But the map puts it well out in the water, like it's a barrier from Norsca but you can skirt between the rocks and land. And the new map of the area from the 4th Ed Sea of Claws book has a different take - it paints it as dangerous, tough to navigate, but full of treasure from previously wrecked ship.

@Bramble, this is your 'version' of the warhammer world, so it's up to you. The Dragon's Maw, immediately west of L'Anguille in our path, can be either Necessary Sailing that we have to do if we don't want to sail out to the deep sea of claws, or Optional Sailing with increased threat to the ship but a significantly faster journey, and/or a mitigated risk of contact with Pirates/Norscans in the Sea of Claws. There also may or may not be Treasure. There also may or may not be one or more trapped Bretonnians, Lords and Peasants alike, trapped in the mysterious coast by forces thus far unreported.

Since the captain we're trying to bring aboard is the only one of us who has sailed that way before, I'm sure he knows - so you have time to decide how much he knows and what disasters ,if any, you want to inflict on us when we go through/around.

[bramblefoot]

aye aye my players,

[BananaPhone]

Sorry farothel for not hanging around with Bruno, but I put myself in the position of someone who had grown up in this city and only knew it their entire lives, yet had been told they've got about 3-4 hours until they leave it. She was more likely to gtfo of there and get her stuff organised and gathered rather than hang around and look at a funeral procession. Sorry mate :(.

[dojango]

After some thinking, the solution for King Louie is pretty obvious. Putting an embargo on the landward side of L'Anguille should be fairly straightforward, so L'Anguille will be dependent on its navy & merchant fleet to import food and raw materials and export finished goods needed to pay for the former. In short, pull a Marienberg. I doubt Marienberg will be thrilled with the idea of a competitor, but it obviously isn't going to make a move unless there's a profit in it for them. So all King Louie needs to do is start issuing letters of Marque against the 'Free Navy of L'Anguille' and it's associated merchant shipping and the Sea of Claws will be swarming with privateers in no time. That should shut down trade between the city and the rest of the world pretty quick-like, and all the king needs to do is wait until the city starts to starve before marching in. If the angry citizens don't open the gates and eat the merchant princes before then, that is. It might not be the 'honorable' thing to do but it would probably be pretty effective (and profitable for a lot of really sketchy people).

[MrAbdiel]

Letters of Marque sounds real close to “hiring mercenaries”… but they could swing it.

Though I think Marienburg might throw in with L’Anguille. Another free city not so far away could be a strong ally; and more importantly, it takes the heat from Bretonnia off the Wasteland indefinitely. If Couronne doesn’t have L’Anguille, it’s sure as hell not trying to take Marienburg. The Wasteland merchants might imagine it’s easier being in a standoff with an Emperor instead of an Emperor AND a King.

[dojango]

Letters of Marque sounds real close to “hiring mercenaries”… but they could swing it.

Though I think Marienburg might throw in with L’Anguille. Another free city not so far away could be a strong ally; and more importantly, it takes the heat from Bretonnia off the Wasteland indefinitely. If Couronne doesn’t have L’Anguille, it’s sure as hell not trying to take Marienburg. The Wasteland merchants might imagine it’s easier being in a standoff with an Emperor instead of an Emperor AND a King.

The city fathers would agree with you. The city merchants looking for an immediate chance for fat profits and the opportunity to screw over a rival? That's the beauty of the letters of marque, private citizens can outfit the privateers regardless of what the city council thinks.

@BananaPhone: Point of order, the ship is anchored out in the harbor so there's no gangplank to walk up, per se, you'd have to climb up a ladder from a rowboat, which can be a little tricky for the average land-lubber.

[wilphe]

Edit: I also can't find where we speculated how long it will take to sail to Mousillon. But I calc'd it again!

See this is why you have a wizard around


https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=218

You are grossly underestimating speed and overestimating distance

HMS Victory once managed 11 - but she was considered a fast ship

Batavia is cited at 5, which seems more reasonable as a merchant ship and a slightly lower tech level

However, assume 4 knots sustained, which means about 110 miles a day with the voyage taking 9 days. If the winds fall exactly as we want for the whole trip which is highly unlikely

But I'd be very happy if the trip took two weeks, hope it took 3 and budget for a month

And we probably can do that without stopping

We might want to pick up some fresh produce along the way but we don't have to - and no one will drink water unless they really have to.

With some control over the conditions would could make a perfect voyage but Wighard doesn't want to be totally reliant on his and Siobhan's control of a form of magic they've only just experienced (that get into trouble but not out of it again)

[wilphe]

Classical British AOS rations are:

Each day a sailor would receive:
• approximately 450 grams of biscuit
• a gallon of beer

In addition, weekly rations included:
• 2 kilograms of salt beef
• 1 kilogram of salt pork
• a litre of peas
• 1.5 litres of oatmeal and wheat
• 170 grams of butter
• 340 grams of cheese.

Which gives you beef and bread on Tuesday and Sunday

Pork and Pease on Monday and Thursday

Oatmeal, butter and cheese the rest of the week

Beer is small beer of low alcohol content (its been boiled so killed anything living in it)

Fresh produce, bread, livestock can be substituted in where available



Going back to c1580s I found this:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...0.2019.1580170

Where diets are remarkably consistent in breakdown of carbs/fat/protein with some adjustments for local availability

1582 French Navy diet:

Carbs by %

Flour, wheat, wholemeal 46
Cider, dry 36
Beans, broad, dried, raw 6
Beer, bitter, average (<4% ABV) 6
Other 6

Protein by %

Beef, salted, dried, raw 71
Herrings, dried, salted, weighed with bones and skin 14
Flour, wheat, wholemeal 7
Beans, broad, dried, raw 5
Other 3

Animal Protein

Beef, salted, dried, raw 82
Herrings, dried, salted, weighed with bones and skin 17
Other 1

Alcohol
French Naval Diet, 1582
Cider 5 litres
190 g Alcohol

Which implies it is 4.75% alcohol

[wilphe]

I assume that was a Channel Fleet because Cider is a Norman/Breton thing

That also kind of fits with Anguille having the Dragon's maw conceptually because the West of the Cotentin and the North of Brittany has some of the strongest and most unpleasant tides in the world

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alderney_Race

The current is intermittent, varying with the tide, and can run up to about 12 knots (22 km/h; 14 mph)during equinoctial tides. The French call it Raz Blanchard.[1] In Norman French it is called L'Raz.

When the wind and the race current flow in opposite directions, the sea becomes particularly chaotic: wave heights can reach 4 metres (13 ft) and have wavelengths smaller than 50 metres (164 ft). The waves break with violence, thus making shipping conditions particularly dangerous.[2] On the contrary, when the wind and the stream flow in the same direction, the sea becomes calm, provided that the tidal coefficient is not too great.

The uneven seabed – both Alderney and La Hague lie in the Armorican Massif – makes the situation more complicated. Poor weather conditions can produce abundant wind-blown foam, making visibility poor. During good weather conditions, opposing wind and currents can cause breaking waves, especially at Banc de la Schôle and at Longis Bay in Alderney.

[wilphe]

Looking at that I think they have overestimated the strength of cider

Beer comes out about 2.75%

[wilphe]

It has also occurred to me that with two moons, one of which is Morrslieb doing its own thing, tides are going to be unpredictable unless Morrslieb's mass is negligible

Though I also suspect it has tidal effects that are not dependent upon it's mass...

[wilphe]

So do we want Bourdelaux to be South West coast or Med coast (I vote for the latter)

[wilphe]

The Boatswain was in charge of the deck division and the small boats (if we have such), so that sort of makes sense since Jasmine has sail and row.

EDIT: if the ship is a Cog, crew needed are between 30 and 45. Also looking at the list, my valet can be the steward I guess (or help in the kitchen). Purser is also an option, but I'm not sure we trust him enough to handle all the money.

Bramble call if there is a boot; these things are flat bottomed so can safely dry out when the tide goes out

Wighard doesn't trust Berthold enough to be Purser, Steward however he can do (distributing food)


Commissioned Officers:

Captain BRUNO

Lieutenant BERTELIS

Warrant Sea Officers:


Master Petrus

Boatswain JASMINE

Carpenter Petrus crew - still needed for emergencies


Surgeon WIGHARD

Purser Probably also Wighard

Inferior Warrant Officers:

Cook

Sailmaker

Surgeons Mate SIOBHAN

Petty Officers:


Masters Mate

2x Midshipmen MELOTH? REGINE?
- Midshipman can be an apprentice role, but its also for trusted people with no more specific position

Captains Clerk

2 x Quartermaster

Quartermasters Mate

Boatswains Mate

Coxswain

Gunners Mate BULLY

Carpenters Mate

Steward

Corporal

Idlers:

Sailmakers Crew

2 x Carpenters Crew

Others:

5 servants

20 seamen

[wilphe]

That should shut down trade between the city and the rest of the world pretty quick-like, and all the king needs to do is wait until the city starts to starve before marching in.

The problem is for as long as you do that the north east of Bretonnia - all of two duchies and bits of two more has no port and they will be hurting too

[Volthawk]

Search 46: (1d100)[67]

As far as ship roles go, sure midshipman works.

[MrAbdiel]

See this is why you have a wizard around


https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=218

You are grossly underestimating speed and overestimating distance

HMS Victory once managed 11 - but she was considered a fast ship

Batavia is cited at 5, which seems more reasonable as a merchant ship and a slightly lower tech level

However, assume 4 knots sustained, which means about 110 miles a day with the voyage taking 9 days. If the winds fall exactly as we want for the whole trip which is highly unlikely

But I'd be very happy if the trip took two weeks, hope it took 3 and budget for a month

And we probably can do that without stopping

We might want to pick up some fresh produce along the way but we don't have to - and no one will drink water unless they really have to.

With some control over the conditions would could make a perfect voyage but Wighard doesn't want to be totally reliant on his and Siobhan's control of a form of magic they've only just experienced (that get into trouble but not out of it again)

Thank you, Gandalf the Neon.

I’m glad to hear we can go faster ( you lied to me, google) but I think the distance is right. I checked the scaling for the map right, this time.

[dojango]

The problem is for as long as you do that the north east of Bretonnia - all of two duchies and bits of two more has no port and they will be hurting too

Well yeah, they have no port because it just seceded. As long as the Free Navy of L'Anguille isn't bottled up the loyalists won't be able to trade there anyway. This just makes it so neither will L'Anguille, and they're more dependent on trade.

[bramblefoot]

oki, so are we ready to skip ahead to on the waves? im just checking

[wilphe]

Do you want to tell Meloth what we found?

[wilphe]

Otherwise yes

Drop off plans for the Big R and extol its virtues

(4d10)[8][7][6][6](27) -4+2 TN18 Power of Truth (It compels you)

(1d100)[28] Heal 86 - FOR SCIENCE!

(1d100)[90] Charm 81 - FOR THE PEOPLE!


++++++++++++

Some Lights of Purity in the Temples of Shallya and Shrines of the Lady Supreme Being


(4d10)[1][3][3][8](15) -4+2 TN12

[wilphe]

FP that charm roll.

(1d100)[7]



(1d100)[51] Truth

(1d10)[2]

(1d100)[27] Purity

(1d10)[6]

[wilphe]

Fortunately he is not in the Market when he spoils everything (note to self do not try that on board ship)

Another button flies off into the Temple and can be sewn back on later

Not going to push his luck by trying any more

[dojango]

Ready to set sail!

[farothel]

Well yeah, they have no port because it just seceded. As long as the Free Navy of L'Anguille isn't bottled up the loyalists won't be able to trade there anyway. This just makes it so neither will L'Anguille, and they're more dependent on trade.

and a city without a hinterland with farms will quickly die of starvation, no matter how much trade comes in (foodstuffs are difficult to transport long distances without refrigeration and the like).

I assume we know where we're going, but I don't remember OOC?