What would you play in a Dragonlance party with 2 bards, wizard, rogue and archer?

[Spo]

Like the title says, I just started a Dragonlance campaign and these characters are what people brought: two kender bards; a tortle necrotic wizard, kender rogue w/ a short bow, and a kobold dex barbarian w/ a short bow.

I started the campaign with a Shadow Sorcerer but with only one session under our belt and a narrative good place to add/replace a character, I figured I might consider something more team balanced friendly.

We had one battle and with no frontliners (again barbarian is an archer), the enemy rushed us and I found myself as a sorcerer using shocking grasp more than I would have liked.

I am sure we could make this work, but I think a dedicated frontliner might make this a bit less painful. I just came out of a campaign playing a Rune Knight fighter/wildmagic Barbarian up to lvl 18, so it is too soon to jump back into those two classes for me. Was considering playing a monk prior to picking the sorcerer but don't know if a monk would fulfill the frontline role here. Does that just leave me playing a Paladin and how does a Paladin fit into the Dragonlance world?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Psyren]

Per Chapter 1, the Knights of Solamnia consist of Fighters, Paladins, and some clerics of War. Any of these should be good options for your frontliner.

While Paladin is solid though, personally I would consider something Wis-based as that is the biggest gap in your current roster; you've got the wizard and rogue for Int and plenty of Charisma based classes for face stuff, so that leaves Wis checks like Perception, Survival and Insight. Rather than Monk here, I'd consider Ranger (using the buffs from Tasha's), going for either Beastmaster, Fey Wanderer or Gloomstalker. Alternatively, go with a frontline cleric as suggested above, or even a Moon Druid worshiping Chislev.

[RogueJK]

Your party definitely needs a frontliner. And a Monk would not be able to fill that role.

If you want to be a dedicated frontliner that retains full spellcasting progression like your Shadow Sorcerer, your options are basically:
Cleric
Moon Druid
Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard
Bladesinger Wizard
Valor Bard
Hexblade Warlock
VHuman/CLineage Non-Hexblade Warlock with the Moderately Armored feat (like the Celestial Warlock Generalist)
VHuman/CLineage Swords Bard with the Moderately Armored feat


Or if you're okay with just nearly-full spellcasting, that adds several more options, such as:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer X
Paladin 2/Warlock X
Paladin 2/Swords Bard X
Artificer 1/Abjuration Wizard X
Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X
Hexblade 1/Bard X
Fighter 1/Non-Hexblade Warlock X
Arcana Cleric 1/Lore Bard X


I'm going to go ahead and assume that any of the Bard options are off the table, unless your party wants to add a third Kender Bard! So setting aside the Bard options as well as the Wizards since the party already has one of those, and also considering that your party lacks both a dedicated healer as well as a frontliner, I'd say the best options in this party would probably be a Moon Druid, a Cleric, a Moderately Armored Celestial Warlock, or a Paladin 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X. Those can all act as effective melee frontliners while also being primary healers, backed up by the Bards for additional emergency healing.

Though if you don't mind still not having a primary healer and don't want to replace your current Shadow Sorcerer outright, you could even just potentially multiclass 1 level of Hexblade or 2 levels of Paladin with your existing Sorcerer, but that could also possibly require asking to tweak your stats and/or spell selection too.

[Unoriginal]

Your party definitely needs a frontliner. And a Monk would not be able to fill that role.

If you want to be a dedicated frontliner that retains full spellcasting progression like your Shadow Sorcerer, your options are basically:
Cleric
Moon Druid
Mountain Dwarf Abjuration Wizard
Bladesinger Wizard
Valor Bard
Hexblade Warlock
VHuman/CLineage Non-Hexblade Warlock with the Moderately Armored feat (like the Celestial Warlock Generalist)
VHuman/CLineage Swords Bard with the Moderately Armored feat


Or if you're okay with just nearly-full spellcasting, that adds several more options, such as:
Paladin 2/Sorcerer X
Paladin 2/Warlock X
Paladin 2/Swords Bard X
Artificer 1/Abjuration Wizard X
Hexblade 1/Sorcerer X
Hexblade 1/Bard X
Fighter 1/Non-Hexblade Warlock X
Arcana Cleric 1/Lore Bard X


I'm going to go ahead and assume that any of the Bard options are off the table, unless your party wants to add a third Kender Bard! So taking out the Bard options, and taking out the Wizards since the party already has one of those, and also considering that your party lacks a dedicated healer, I'd say the best options would probably be a Moon Druid, a Cleric, a Moderately Armored Celestial Warlock, or a Paladin 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer X.

Though if you didn't want to replace your current Shadow Sorcerer outright, you could even just potentially multiclass 1 level of Hexblade or 2 levels of Paladin with your existing Sorcerer, but that could also possibly require asking to tweak your stats and/or spell selection too.

Given the number of ranged support and ranged DPS, I don't see why a Monk couldn't be the frontliner.

A Monk can run up to the enemies, attract attention, and survive while the supports boost them and the DPSes target the attackers.

Granted that may require a few more Dodge actionsthan punches (or bonus action Dodge, once the party is lvl 2), but it doesn't change that a Monk can be a frontliner.

[RogueJK]

Ok, perhaps a better and more detailed way to phrase that would be "Without the party expending a decent amount of resources just supporting the Monk to allow it to survive regularly standing on the front lines, and the Monk having to make some very un-Monkly choices for actions and ASIs/Feats, the Monk would not be able to fill that role very well".

It's possible, in theory, but it's going to take away from the Bards' and Wizard's ability to do other things. Whereas any of other other options I suggested would require less additional support to begin with, and most of them can provide their own personal support too.

In addition, there's little inherent to the Monk class that makes them "sticky" by either encouraging enemies to focus on them or discouraging/punishing them from moving or attacking elsewhere (at least until you start having enough Ki to frequently Stun), and Monks are already very MAD so that leaves little room for feats like Sentinel. There's more to being an effective frontliner than just being able to survive taking melee hits. Nothing's stopping an enemy from simply waltzing past that Dodging Aided Hasted Monk to go pummel the Wizard instead. A dedicated frontliner also has to have means to take the focus off the squishier allies and/or prevent or strongly discourage an enemy from getting past you to attack your squishier allies.


Finally, propping up a Monk frontliner doesn't do anything to address the lack of a primary healer like some of the other potential frontliner options could, although that's a bit less of a necessity in this particular party due to the dual Bards both being able to act as secondary healers, and two Bards together is potentially nearly as effective as a primary healer. Especially if one of them is a Lore Bard who decides to dive head-first into that role by taking all the necessary Bard spells and also picking up additional healing spells like Aura of Vitality and Revivify via Magical Secrets.

[Unoriginal]

Ok, perhaps a better and more detailed way to phrase that would be "Without the party expending a decent amount of resources just supporting the Monk to allow it to survive regularly standing on the front lines, and the Monk having to make some very un-Monkly choices for actions and ASIs/Feats, the Monk would not be able to fill that role very well".

It's possible, in theory, but it's going to take away from the Bards' and Wizard's ability to do other things. Whereas any of other other options I suggested would require less additional support to begin with, and most of them can provide their own personal support too.

In addition, there's little inherent to the Monk class that makes them "sticky" by either encouraging enemies to focus on them or discouraging/punishing them from moving or attacking elsewhere (at least until you start having enough Ki to frequently Stun), and Monks are already very MAD so that leaves little room for feats like Sentinel. There's more to being an effective frontliner than just being able to survive taking melee hits. Nothing's stopping an enemy from simply waltzing past that Dodging Aided Hasted Monk to go pummel the Wizard instead. A dedicated frontliner also has to have means to take the focus off the squishier allies and/or prevent or strongly discourage an enemy from getting past you to attack your squishier allies.


Finally, propping up a Monk frontliner doesn't do anything to address the lack of a primary healer like some of the other potential frontliner options could, although that's a bit less of a necessity in this particular party due to the dual Bards both being able to act as secondary healers, and two Bards together is potentially nearly as effective as a primary healer. Especially if one of them is a Lore Bard who decides to dive head-first into that role by taking all the necessary Bard spells and also picking up additional healing spells like Aura of Vitality and Revivify via Magical Secrets.

V. Human Mercy Monk with Sentinel feat, maybe?

[Leon]

I'd ignore the "need" to have a front line and play what you feel is best for you to play. Having some melee is good with a heavy ranged line up but all characters should be caring about the fact that something can and possibly will engage them in combat at some point front line or no. The idea that everything is going to stop at the the "frontline" is a dubious one unless you have a DM who is a similar stickler for the frontline stops all from going past it. Out side of the specific (and rather limited) Subclasses that can actually "tank" there isn't much a "frontline" can do to control if enemies get to the squidgy things in the back.

[KorvinStarmast]

Like the title says, I just started a Dragonlance campaign and these characters are what people brought: two kender bards; a tortle necrotic wizard, kender rogue w/ a short bow, and a kobold dex barbarian w/ a short bow.

I'd play a nice game of chess. Or, I'd play a Firebat from Starcraft and set fire to all three kender during session 1.

But you probably don't want to do that, so I'll suggest a vHuman Sun Soul monk, or a vHuman Rune Knight.

[RogueJK]

Out side of the specific (and rather limited) Subclasses that can actually "tank" there isn't much a "frontline" can do to control if enemies get to the squidgy things in the back.

Sure there are. There are a bunch of different abilities and spells that a frontliner can leverage to "hold the line" and prevent/dissuade/punish enemies from getting to your squishier buddies, many/most of which aren't tied to a specific subclass.

It doesn't take a specific subclass to do things like utilize fear effects, which prevent affected enemies from moving closer to the source of their fear, so if you're between the enemies and your allies then they potentially can't get to your allies. Similarly, it doesn't require a specific subclass to prevent/punish movement away from you via stuff like Sentinel or a Smiting Booming Blade Warcaster OA. Then there are the various abilities and spells that Grapple or Restrain or otherwise fix enemies in place. And ones that can make enemies prioritize you as their main target. And ones to reduce their movement via speed reduction or difficult terrain or Proning, to help keep them near you and away from others. And ones to push/pull enemies away from allies and/or back to you via forced movement. Etc.

An effective frontliner will want to have access to several of these options for making themselves the best/only target for enemies, regardless of their subclass (or in addition to anything that your subclass may add).

Like I said, being a frontliner is about more than just being big and tough with a high AC then standing close to the enemies and hoping they choose to stick around and attack you first. It's about making yourself the better/only target by making is so that as many enemies as possible can't get to your weaker allies, don't want to get to your weaker allies, or will suffer if they try to get to your weaker allies.

V. Human Mercy Monk with Sentinel feat, maybe?

Between Sentinel and Stunning Strike you at least have a couple "sticky" options. But you're still lacking the wider variety of options that another type of frontliner could have, especially one with spellcasting. And you're still relying on your other party members to help shore up stuff like your middling defensive capabilities. If you're going to attract all that attention, you have to be able to survive all that attention.

I'd actually go with Astral Self over Mercy if you had to make a frontliner Monk, since that way you could have WIS-based Grapples/Prones, and thus have a third "sticky" ability. (Nearly all other Monks won't make effective Grapplers, since STR isn't a priority for a Monk, and trying to make a STR-based Monk grappler only serves to make you even more MAD than you already are.) Plus, you could Grapple 2 enemies at a time and still make melee attacks. And you could even potentially Grapple both enemies in one turn and still make an attack or two, thanks to your high number of attacks each turn. Or Prone+Grapple two enemies in one turn.

Plus, an Astral Self Monk can get away with prioritizing WIS over DEX with their ASIs, and therefore still keep up with their melee attacks and AC while also boosting their Stun DC higher than it would normally be on a DEX-primary Monk. Stunning and/or grappling up to potentially 6 enemies and Sentinel OAing 1 more is a lot of control over who can and can't get to your squishy buddies that round. (Though you'll be burning through Ki at a very rapid pace if you're trying to Stun multiple enemies every turn.)

[Xihirli]

A third bard.

[animorte]

Monk is one of the most difficult classes to actually lock down. I still kind of like this idea.

However, I recall just over a year ago in one of the more recent campaigns, 3 people didn't show up for the adventure. DM had a reliable in-game circumstance to account for the absence. The three of us were Artificer, Bard, and Warlock. When it came time to throw down, we threw all forms of control and the enemy required some serious creativity from the DM to do anything. We travelled slower overall, didn't have nearly as much damage, and had to use more resources, but it was still an interesting experience.

The point is, casters are just bonkers if you're not afraid to really expend resources for it. So no, you don't require a front-liner, but the party needs to adjust their play style accordingly. In this particular circumstance, I would probably run a control/aura/melee Cleric. Basically a Paladin, except Wisdom and more spells.

[da newt]

With no WIS based folks, I'd look at shepherd druid and summon all the disposable front line you could desire. 8 stench cows make a great wall of flesh for keeping the bad guys out of melee range (and imagine the reputation you could build if that's your go-to combat action).

TBH - I'm a little thrown off by the idea of a Kobold Dex Barb w/ a bow. What's that all about?

[Leon]

Sure there are. There are a bunch of different abilities and spells that a frontliner can leverage to "hold the line" and prevent/dissuade/punish enemies from getting to your squishier buddies, many/most of which aren't tied to a specific subclass.

It doesn't take a specific subclass to do things like utilize fear effects, which prevent affected enemies from moving closer to the source of their fear, so if you're between the enemies and your allies then they potentially can't get to your allies. Similarly, it doesn't require a specific subclass to prevent/punish movement away from you via stuff like Sentinel or a Smiting Booming Blade Warcaster OA. Then there are the various abilities and spells that Grapple or Restrain or otherwise fix enemies in place. And ones that can make enemies prioritize you as their main target. And ones to reduce their movement via speed reduction or difficult terrain or Proning, to help keep them near you and away from others. And ones to push/pull enemies away from allies and/or back to you via forced movement. Etc.

An effective frontliner will want to have access to several of these options for making themselves the best/only target for enemies, regardless of their subclass (or in addition to anything that your subclass may add).

Like I said, being a frontliner is about more than just being big and tough with a high AC then standing close to the enemies and hoping they choose to stick around and attack you first. It's about making yourself the better/only target by making is so that as many enemies as possible can't get to your weaker allies, don't want to get to your weaker allies, or will suffer if they try to get to your weaker allies.

Still very limited when in a combat encounter with a DM who has at least half a brain and a selection of enemies with brains ~ unless your fighting in a chokepoint all that above actually means very little. The Front line concept as well as many other concepts on this forum is greatly overblown.

[Rukelnikov]

A third bard.

Unironically this, go for maximum meme power

[CTurbo]

Never ever ever feel like you need to change your character to fulfill some kind of party role.

Parties with no dedicated frontliner can be a lot of fun.

Stick with your character a little longer and see how it goes. If you're not being able to play the way you invisioned because there is no frontliner, I'd change characters to a different non-tank character lol

Archer Gloom Stalker?
Blaster Light Cleric?
Long Death Monk?
A third Bard?

[Mastikator]

I'd go with paladin. Always wanted to try a hexadin type character. So first 6 levels is paladin (conquest), then go hexblade after that. Race: shadar-kai. Feat selection depends on rolled stats.

[Psyren]

If you do go with the Monk option, they usually worship Majere so you can follow the "religious awakening" intro, especially if you plan to multiclass cleric, druid or ranger later.

[nickl_2000]

With that many kender, that party needs a babysitter more than a frontliner. May I suggest a VHuman LG Paladin just for the RP opportunities in dealing with the rest of the party. Exasperated, straight man (in the comedic sense), sick of all the crap that the 2 bard and 1 rogue kender puts them through.

[JonBeowulf]

Honestly, I'd walk away.

However, Vengeance Paladin + Sentinel is my answer to almost every "what should I play" post. Probably because I'm really good at them.

If you want to add some WIS to the team and bring some melee, War or Life Cleric will work.

If a 3rd Bard sounds fun and you still want melee, I say Swords is the way to go.

With that many kender, that party needs a babysitter more than a frontliner. May I suggest a VHuman LG Paladin just for the RP opportunities in dealing with the rest of the party. Exasperated, straight man (in the comedic sense), sick of all the crap that the 2 bard and 1 rogue kender puts them through.

Which is exactly why I'd walk away. Why would the character above risk their life with this group of annoying misfits?

[animorte]

With that many kender, that party needs a babysitter more than a frontliner. May I suggest a VHuman LG Paladin just for the RP opportunities in dealing with the rest of the party. Exasperated, straight man (in the comedic sense), sick of all the crap that the 2 bard and 1 rogue kender puts them through.

And there's my morning laugh.

Which is exactly why I'd walk away. Why would the character above risk their life with this group of annoying misfits?

Maybe being a babysitter is an aspiration for some. Also, there is a particular island of misfit toys that looked pretty fun.

[JonBeowulf]

Maybe being a babysitter is an aspiration for some. Also, there is a particular island of misfit toys that looked pretty fun.

Yeah, but they weren't wandering the world trying to stop Bad Guys from doing Bad Guy stuff. They just sat around bemoaning their lives. They needed a hero, they weren't the heroes.

I'm not saying a band of annoying misfits can't be fun. I might even enjoy it... you never know until you try. It is essential that the DM is on board, though.

[animorte]

I'm not saying a band of annoying misfits can't be fun. I might even enjoy it... you never know until you try. It is essential that the DM is on board, though.

We'll, it certainly looks like the DM already is on board with what they've been up to.

[JellyPooga]

I'd go for a Str/Wis focused Rogue with a multiclass dip into Barbarian or Ranger for Medium Armour prof. Rogues can absolutely play on the front line, can be where they need to be at the opportune moment and put out a hefty amount of hurt, whilst having all the tricks you might want for entertaining play across all pillars.

[da newt]

As for playing a foil for the other PCs - someone to be the moral compass who tries to herd all the chaos cats - I'd recommend NOT doing that. IME being the PC who has friction with the rest of the party (I'm the good one, or the pacifist, or the immoral profiteer on a team of righteous heroes), I find it gets old and tedious quickly and causes more harm than good. It tends to be much more fun to lean into the party's tone - if they are all pirates, be the best pirate you can be - don't be the sheriff.

[JadedDM]

I will point out that canonically* kender can be quite heroic. They even kicked some butt during the war. Drove out the Black Dragonarmy from Kendermore and Balifor.

(*Not that WotC cares about canon anymore, granted)

[Spo]

As for playing a foil for the other PCs - someone to be the moral compass who tries to herd all the chaos cats - I'd recommend NOT doing that. IME being the PC who has friction with the rest of the party (I'm the good one, or the pacifist, or the immoral profiteer on a team of righteous heroes), I find it gets old and tedious quickly and causes more harm than good. It tends to be much more fun to lean into the party's tone - if they are all pirates, be the best pirate you can be - don't be the sheriff.

Think being the straight man to the kender hijinks is fine for a one shot, I agree it can get tiring if you are the lone party member on the outs of the team theme.

[sambojin]

Moon Druid. Not only are you a good frontliner until your archers/ bards are good at what they do, you've got summons as well. And a fair bit of lockdown casting.
(Summoning in some riding horses would make for a fun kiting party).

Plus, if you need to, you can wildshape into a giant frog and eat one of them, to teach the others a lesson. And you can't steal stuff out of wildspace either, so you have thief-proof carrying capacity.

I'd probably go vhuman with alert. Go before everyone, do your thing, and bodyblock if you want to. Or be a firbolg and look like a kender half the time if you want, and join in on the shenanigans...

[Witty Username]

Well if fighter and barbarian are off the table, a strength based ranger could be pretty fun.
I would go with gloomstalker if I was doing that. Alternatively a two-weapon fey wanderer ranger has some cool stuff with it, if you want to shore up Con more than 14.
-for strength based, take defensive as the fighting style, and your favorite melee weapon (mine would be halberd), essentially your sitting with the idea that d10 hit dice, martial weapons, medium armor with a +1 which makes it on par with heavy, and extra attack are enough to be an effective frontline martial. And you have a good list of spells and skills for other stuff.

Paladin is also a good option, I would lean conquest as it is pretty brutal with a party this ranged, but anything works.
-frightened and freezing enemies in place is going to turn fights into shooting galleries, take levels in hexblade after a bit is an option if you want to focus on charisma primarily but its unnecessary, strength 16 secondary or strength primary are solid enough.

And moon druid, if you just want to all in bear grills. That has a shelf life though, because bear is less cool looking as time goes on.

If subclasses are off but fighter and barbarian are on the table otherwise, zealot barbarian is pretty solid. If you like the mindset, don't think just fight, it works really well.

[Segev]

With two bards and no frontliner, I'd try to talk a bard into taking Revivify and then play a Zealot Barbarian, myself. Third level spell slot, and the barbarian is back on his feet even if killed.

[Ganryu]

A third bard.

I think you win the thread.