Thought experiment - just items, no advancement

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why are psionics so much better than magic?

Magic is better at a lot of things, and psionics is better at some things.

In this case, it's likely because metamorphosis is (aside from a few intentional alterations) what polymorph was supposed to be, but they clucked it up between the weirdness of basing polymorph any object off of polymorph, which itself was based on alter self, and they forgot to tighten up some legacy issues that they didn't mean to carry over, like the size thing. Simply saying, "as alter self, except you can't take a form smaller than Fine" does not negate alter self's "cannot take a form more than 1 size category away" stipulation; it just adds another limitation on top of it. The same goes with PAO's problem with HD limitations inherited from polymorph, since they forgot to mention that it could break HD caps.

The whole thing is just a big mess, but metamorphosis doesn't have that issue, since it was written from the ground up to be self-contained (aside from the stats for the forms you can take, of course).

(Also, Metamorphosis does still have an upper cap, right?)

Yep. ML 15, just like polymorph, although you can (probably) break the cap with the Reserves of Strength feat, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Thunder999]

I think part of why Psionic buffs tend to be a bit stronger is the combination of having to pay for scaling and the fact they're generally personal range (presumably for thematic reasons?).

[Maat Mons]

Darkstalker lets you sort of bypass Scent, Tremorsense, and such. Admittedly, that is one of your precious feats. As a 7th-level character, you won’t have many. Well, unless these characters capped at level 7 are using the e6 thing about spending xp for bonus feats after capping out their level. Other than that, you mostly just need max ranks in Hide and Move Silently. Though if your class doesn’t have Move Silently as a class skill, getting by other means may not be feasible. Also, if you’re a low skill point character who needs your few skill points for something else, that could be a problem.

Funny thing, two of the easiest ways to get Move Silently as class skills on Tier 1 classes are Halfling Druid substitution levels, or the Initiate of Arvoreen feat, both of which require being a halfling. But halflings don’t have the +4 racial bonus to Move Silently that goblins, kenku, norker, phanaton, and whisper gnomes do. And they don’t have Darkvision. They do, however, have small size (for +4 Hide) and a +2 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently. Not ideal (ideal is whisper gnome), but completely workable. Gonna need to pick up Darkvision from an item, and your Hide and Move Silently modifiers will be 2 less than optimal. Still, workable.

Another easy way to get Move Silently on a Tier 1 class is the Nightbringer Initiate feat. Though that only works for Druid. There are also prestige classes that fully advance spellcasting and have it as a class skill. Ruathar is the easiest to get into. But there are others. The PrC approach does require backfilling skill ranks at levels 6 and 7. If Dragon magazine material is allowed, there’s the Flexible Mind feat. I guess, strictly speaking, you could use Aereni Focus, but elves are even further behind whisper gnomes than halflings are in terms of stealth.

Anyone intending to fight above their CR would be well advised to only pick fights they know they can win. Maybe cast Invisibility on a disposable minion, and Scry on it while it explores any location you were thinking of robbing?

[Crake]

I figured a Ring of Sustenance would be good for the long haul, but what is wedded to history? What does it add? Immortality?

Yeah, it's immortality in feat form. It's from Dragon 354, basically gives you a few lore options on what flavour of immortality you want. Being endless, with no living expenses (bonus points if you're an elf and thus don't need to sleep, meaning you now no longer even need food, water, or shelter to sleep in), you can effectively spend your days however you like, and literally save every penny you make.

I forgot to add in an item of endure elements, so you can survive harsh weather without the need for shelter. I would probably also get an item to disguise yourself, so people don't start to question who you are. So yeah, hat of disguise (later upgrade to skin of the proteus I guess), ring of sustenance, and I guess a periapt of health just to make sure you don't get some horrible disease and die.

Or you could skip wedded to history and just be an elan, that works too.

[Gruftzwerg]

Warlock 6 / Marshall 1

Marshall minor aura: additional CHA bonus to CHA skills

UMD: 10 ranks

DWK with starting CHA: 20 (17 base +3 age)

+6 enhancement bonus CHA item
+5 inherit bonus CHA wishes
+6 untyped bonus CHA from Horseshoes of Flame
+1 from lvlUP at lvl 4

= 38 CHA (+14)

UMD: 10 Deceive Item + 10 ranks + 14 CHA + 14 marshall aura = 48 effectively rolled


Now buy as many Rod of Absorption as you can. These absorb spells and sla targeting you and convert em into up to 50 charges (can't be refilled, thus the reason to buy multiple rods..)
Spontaneous casters can use these charges to cast any spell they know, paying a charge for each spell level.
Knowing Spells is a class feature.

UMD can emulate class features with a UMD-20 roll.
We can emulate the spells known of a 28th lvl sorcerer (48-20= 28) and use the rod to cast em (using the emulated caster lvl). And with our high CHA modifier, we increase any possible save DC.

Access to all Sorcerer spells up to 9th lvl as long as we have the money to buy the rods.

Amulet of Wild Shape:
Another item where we can emulate the class to abuse the item. We basically get the Wild Shape ability of a 20th lvl druid.

Imho this should be enough to handle most situations.

[Crake]

Knowing Spells is a class feature.

I think it's hard to argue that knowing a specific spell is a class feature. The ability to know spells is, yes, but knowing meteor is not. This is fairly clearly evidenced by the fact that not every 18th level sorcerer will know meteor. If it was a class feature, then all sorcerers would know it.

You could probably get away with arguing this for fixed list casters like beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer, though those class features specify that you learn said spells when you gain the spell slots, which you never do with emulate class feature.

There is a solution though: Runestaves and knowstones. You don't get that theoretical "access to every spell ever", but really, you don't NEED access to every spell ever, just a handful of powerful 9ths will do you fine.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think it's hard to argue that knowing a specific spell is a class feature. The ability to know spells is, yes, but knowing meteor is not. This is fairly clearly evidenced by the fact that not every 18th level sorcerer will know meteor. If it was a class feature, then all sorcerers would know it.

You could probably get away with arguing this for fixed list casters like beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer, though those class features specify that you learn said spells when you gain the spell slots, which you never do with emulate class feature.

There is a solution though: Runestaves and knowstones. You don't get that theoretical "access to every spell ever", but really, you don't NEED access to every spell ever, just a handful of powerful 9ths will do you fine.

Imho "Sorcerer Spells Known" is a variable class feature, but it's still a class feature.
It's the same as a monk or ranger doing their feat choices, the selected feats become class features.

If "Sorcerer Spells Known" wouldn't be a class feature, things like Arcane Fusion wouldn't exist. As such, knowing a specific spell is a class feature of a spontaneous caster (btw, the Rod of Absorbtion does work with emulating any spontaneous casting class. I just forgot to mention it).

Emulating prepared casters sadly doesn't work. Because preparing is the use of the class feature and prepared (the requirement for the Rod) is a status/value on your current statblock (basically an effect on you). And that can't be emulated.

But the class feature selections are imho part of emulating a class feature. Just like you can emulate Sneak Attack of variable levels according to your UMD roll, your spells known also scale according to your roll.

And since the UMD roll can be reset with each new activation, you can pick other spells or even another spontaneous casting class for each activation/emulation anew.

It's one of the "broken" aspects of UMD by RAW (from a balance point of view). And I don't really advertise it as play advice. But if you should play a T3 or below class in a group full of optimized T1 and T2 characters, it might be a good solution for a "mundane" build to rely on full RAW UMD abuse. It really depends on the situation here imho.
A good UMD build can compete with T2 and even T1 depending on the optimization grade. As such, imho it's a good tool to balance mundane characters in a otherwise highly magical group. On the other hand, a DM can always intervene if it would start to become a problem, like he can and should do with any kind of problematic ability (ab)use.

[redking]

It's one of the "broken" aspects of UMD by RAW (from a balance point of view).

It's not written anywhere that you can do what you say UMD can do, so it's not rules as written.

[AvatarVecna]

Imho "Sorcerer Spells Known" is a variable class feature, but it's still a class feature.
It's the same as a monk or ranger doing their feat choices, the selected feats become class features.

Opinion detected, RAW argument discarded.

Additionally, full RAW quote:

Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

If a magic item only lets you cast a built-in spell if you have 3d6 Sneak Attack (which gets applied to the spell damage), UMD will let you pretend to have Sneak Attack for the purposes of activating the spell. But you don't get extra damage on the spell, because you don't have extra sneak attack damage, you're only pretending to for the purpose of activation and nothing else.

A running total of absorbed (and used) spell levels should be kept. The wielder of the rod can use captured spell energy to cast any spell she has prepared, without expending the preparation itself. The only restrictions are that the levels of spell energy stored in the rod must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell the wielder wants to cast, that any material components required for the spell be present, and that the rod be in hand when casting. For casters such as bards or sorcerers who do not prepare spells, the rod’s energy can be used to cast any spell of the appropriate level or levels that they know.

This does not read to me like "if you don't have spellcasting, you aren't allowed to activate a rod of absorption". There is nothing barring a commoner from activating this use of the rod, it just wouldn't do anything. But also, even if you do wanna read it that way, where having the class feature "Spells Known" is a requirement of using the item, UMD lets you pretend to have the class feature sure. But in the same way it doesn't actually give Sneak Attack when you fake that feature, it doesn't actually give you any spells known either.

Congratulations! You have pretended to be a sorcerer so hard that you can activate a Rod Of Absorption. You may use the stored spell energy to cast any spell you know? Oh what's that, you don't know any spells, you just pretend like you know spells? Well then you can use the Rod to cast any of the zero spells you know. Try not to spend all those charges at once.

[Gruftzwerg]

Opinion detected, RAW argument discarded.

Just because I tried to express my thoughts in a civilized manner doesn't let you ignore the underlying argument.

Additionally, full RAW quote:



If a magic item only lets you cast a built-in spell if you have 3d6 Sneak Attack (which gets applied to the spell damage), UMD will let you pretend to have Sneak Attack for the purposes of activating the spell. But you don't get extra damage on the spell, because you don't have extra sneak attack damage, you're only pretending to for the purpose of activation and nothing else.



This does not read to me like "if you don't have spellcasting, you aren't allowed to activate a rod of absorption". There is nothing barring a commoner from activating this use of the rod, it just wouldn't do anything. But also, even if you do wanna read it that way, where having the class feature "Spells Known" is a requirement of using the item, UMD lets you pretend to have the class feature sure. But in the same way it doesn't actually give Sneak Attack when you fake that feature, it doesn't actually give you any spells known either.

Congratulations! You have pretended to be a sorcerer so hard that you can activate a Rod Of Absorption. You may use the stored spell energy to cast any spell you know? Oh what's that, you don't know any spells, you just pretend like you know spells? Well then you can use the Rod to cast any of the zero spells you know. Try not to spend all those charges at once.

The PHB gives an example where the use of Turn Undead is emulated. The item works as if the ability was used.

The same here. The Rod work as if you know the spell and as if you would had cast the spell. Nothing limits you to sole emulate "knowing the spell". You can also emulate to "cast a spell", since that is a part of the very same class feature we are emulating here.
"Casting the spell" is also part of the requirement here to "use the Rod of Absorption", thus it is a valid target for UMD. The Rod is producing the effect based on the emulated spell known and the emulated cast of it.

Works as intended...
(I hope that I may make a joke about the broken state of UMD and that this doesn't automatically mean that you may ignore my entire arguments )

[Crake]

If "Sorcerer Spells Known" wouldn't be a class feature, things like Arcane Fusion wouldn't exist. As such, knowing a specific spell is a class feature of a spontaneous caster (btw, the Rod of Absorbtion does work with emulating any spontaneous casting class. I just forgot to mention it).

Eh, I don't really buy it. The rod allows you to expend the energy to cast a spell you know, it doesn't have the knowledge of the spell within in, and neither do you, so there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots, so in theory, you could use a rod of absorption, which you charge with your warlock SLAs, runestaves, and knowstones to completely emulate being a spontaneous caster. Bonus points if you get ancestral relic for your runestaff and effectively give yourself a list of prepared spells through the use of the runestaff.

Only issue is that the rods have only 50 charges, so you're literally paying 1000g per spell level. At that point you're honestly probably better off just buying a bunch of scrolls instead.

[Quertus]

The PHB gives an example where the use of Turn Undead is emulated. The item works as if the ability was used.

there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots

The Paladin example is like replacing a “has battery” class feature with a potato battery… minus the potato… and it still working. “Logic” has, IMO, long since left the building. But, happily, the explicitly exemplified but illogical part isn’t what’s being disagreed about. So, just how expensive are high-level knowstones?

(Granted, this whole plan seems expensive as a method for characters capped at 7th to use for continuing adventuring.)

[Crake]

The Paladin example is like replacing a “has battery” class feature with a potato battery… minus the potato… and it still working. “Logic” has, IMO, long since left the building. But, happily, the explicitly exemplified but illogical part isn’t what’s being disagreed about. So, just how expensive are high-level knowstones?

(Granted, this whole plan seems expensive as a method for characters capped at 7th to use for continuing adventuring.)

Knowstones themselves would require a UMD check to use, since you need to emulate having the spell on your spell list in the first place to learn it. Their pricing is spell level squared x1000gp, so knowing a 9th level spell would cost you 81,000gp.

Runestaves are significantly cheaper. But limit your daily casts to a maximum of 3, but can be as low as 1. If you used ancestral relic for a runestaff, you could in theory change it every day, effectively making it a prepared caster spell list.

[Gruftzwerg]

Eh, I don't really buy it. The rod allows you to expend the energy to cast a spell you know, it doesn't have the knowledge of the spell within in, and neither do you, so there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots, so in theory, you could use a rod of absorption, which you charge with your warlock SLAs, runestaves, and knowstones to completely emulate being a spontaneous caster. Bonus points if you get ancestral relic for your runestaff and effectively give yourself a list of prepared spells through the use of the runestaff.

Only issue is that the rods have only 50 charges, so you're literally paying 1000g per spell level. At that point you're honestly probably better off just buying a bunch of scrolls instead.

You need to cast the spell that you ("pretend to") know via the Rod of Absorption to activate it.
It's part of its activation and thus a legal target for UMD to emulate as class feature. And it's the rod that releases the magic, not you.

It's the same as with the Turn Undead example in the PHB. The UMD user has no TU ability and ain't using the ability for real. He just pretends to have the TU ability and pretends to use it for the activation.

So why should the Rod of Ab. behave differently here? It needs the (effective) use of a class ability to activate it.
Just because you are faking the activation doesn't stop the item from releasing the magic effect accordingly.

While it might "feel" cheesy, it's simple UMD as intended without any cheesy interpretations. Just regular UMD use.
The cheesy part here is the item not UMD. (Except the fact that you may consider UMD itself to be "broken" from a balance point of view, that's a topic for its own).

[Crake]

It's the same as with the Turn Undead example in the PHB. The UMD user has no TU ability and ain't using the ability for real. He just pretends to have the TU ability and pretends to use it for the activation.

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

[Quertus]

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

I don’t think “dysfunctional” is the word for it. “A high-OP Rogue who cares about magic can out-magic a low-OP Wizard” seems to parallel nicely “A high-OP Cleric who cares about fighting can out-fight a low-OP Fighter”. And all they really say is “high-OP >> low-OP”.

Regardless, I can’t really see a way for the Rogue to power the Knowstone via a Rod of Absorption that wouldn’t also allow them to do so with the “potatoless Potato battery”; ie, to do so without said Rod. If I’m not careful, I might construct an argument that says they can know the time by using UMD to power the clock they don’t have with the potato they don’t have, which is why I’m trying to just listen to others’ explanations.

[Crake]

Regardless, I can’t really see a way for the Rogue to power the Knowstone via a Rod of Absorption that wouldn’t also allow them to do so with the “potatoless Potato battery”; ie, to do so without said Rod. If I’m not careful, I might construct an argument that says they can know the time by using UMD to power the clock they don’t have with the potato they don’t have, which is why I’m trying to just listen to others’ explanations.

To understand it, you need to accept the basic premise that there’s two requirements to cast a spell as a spontaneous caster: knowing the spell, and having an available spell slot.

The rod of absorption can act as a stand in for the spell slots, but does not provide any capacity for spell knowledge, while the knowstone provides spell knowledge, but does not provide the spellslots to cast with. Thus, only in conjunction do they allow a spell to be cast.

Knowstones do nothing beyond convey spell knowledge, there is no case where you could UMD one to cast a spell without some means of providing the spellslots.

[icefractal]

Knowstones no, but a Runestaff would - if you're treating the "spending imaginary Turn Undead to power an item" example as valid:
"By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list."

Incidentally, that example is especially weird because no such item (which costs Turn Undead uses to activate) even exists, AFAIK. So it's opening a huge can of worms in order to answer a question that nobody asked.

Using a Rod of Absorption by emulating knowing specific spells is a case I'm not sure about. It comes down to "can you use UMD to emulate things at your discretion (limited to the list of what it can emulate), or can it only emulate the specific requirements for the item you're currently using it with"?

[Crake]

Knowstones no, but a Runestaff would - if you're treating the "spending imaginary Turn Undead to power an item" example as valid:
"By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list."

Incidentally, that example is especially weird because no such item (which costs Turn Undead uses to activate) even exists, AFAIK. So it's opening a huge can of worms in order to answer a question that nobody asked.

Right, but thats kinda my point. Either you see the example as allowing you to spend resources you dont have, in which case runestaves are just the better option over a rod of absorption, or you see the example as disfunctional, and you need either runestaves or knowstones in conjunction with a rod of absorption to cast spells.

Theres no point where a rod of absorption alone is the best option, unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED theoretical complete access to the entirety of the 3.5 spell list, when really, a handful of various high level spells will cover 99% of situations.

[Quertus]

Right, but thats kinda my point. Either you see the example as allowing you to spend resources you dont have, in which case runestaves are just the better option over a rod of absorption, or you see the example as disfunctional, and you need either runestaves or knowstones in conjunction with a rod of absorption to cast spells.

Theres no point where a rod of absorption alone is the best option, unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED theoretical complete access to the entirety of the 3.5 spell list, when really, a handful of various high level spells will cover 99% of situations.

Ah, so you do see a valid use case. And, now that you’ve said that, I’ll see your use case and raise you my own personal insanity: is there any reason why, if you can UMD a Rod of Absorption to create/cast any spell published in 3e, that you couldn’t similarly use it to create/cast any/every spell *not* published in 3e? To not just cast Wall of Salt, but also Wall of Pepper, and Wall of Hot Peppers, and Wall of Crawling Maggots, and Wall of Pouncing Kittens, depending on the situation? Is there any reason why, any spell which *could* be researched wouldn’t be a valid option for your UMD Rod tech?

I mean, I’m not sure how useful it would really be in practice (especially compared with the expense), but it certainly sounds like a fun idea.

[Crake]

Ah, so you do see a valid use case. And, now that you’ve said that, I’ll see your use case and raise you my own personal insanity: is there any reason why, if you can UMD a Rod of Absorption to create/cast any spell published in 3e, that you couldn’t similarly use it to create/cast any/every spell *not* published in 3e? To not just cast Wall of Salt, but also Wall of Pepper, and Wall of Hot Peppers, and Wall of Crawling Maggots, and Wall of Pouncing Kittens, depending on the situation? Is there any reason why, any spell which *could* be researched wouldn’t be a valid option for your UMD Rod tech?

I mean, I’m not sure how useful it would really be in practice (especially compared with the expense), but it certainly sounds like a fun idea.

Well, I was arguing no use case because I cant be bothered arguing the UMD issue. As I said, I ascribe to the notion that you need a source for both power and effect to successfully perform magic like this, and rod of absorption only provides the power, not the effect. I think thats just a difference of opinion though, and I dont expect to change anyones mind about it.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

(I didn't quote every post, but I did read em)

1)
Imho most people have a hard time to understand the limitation and exception set to "use class ability":

We have a general statement:

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class.

Followed immediately by a specific exception:

It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Which means, "emulating the use of the target ability for activation" is legal. And as we can see with alignment and race specific items, they work accordingly to the emulated stuff.
This doesn't stop the item's effect to give you a similar; enhanced; or identical effect as the class ability, if that is what the items effect does like in the case of the Rod of Absorption. And since the "effect" of the rod doesn't require you to expend spell slots, a UMD user can use the item's effect without causing dysfunctions.


2)
You still spend the rod's charges as normal. UMD lets you emulate the class feature (and eventual used class resources), but not the features of the "rod" (and neither the resources of the rod).

3)
Sure Runestaves are another nice option for UMD users. But the Rod of Absorbtion still superior in its effect. The sole downside is that it is kinda an expensive "consumable" item (like a wand with charges).
The defensive power shouldn't be ignored either. And having access to effectively all spells without any further actions needed (to draw the right runestaff/wand/scroll/...) is another point that makes it better than a collection of items to do the same thing. If you wanna be as flexible as the Rod of Absorption, you need to spend a lot of money.

___________________

4) Wand of "Sanctum Spell: Arcane Fusion"
This is the lil brother of the Rod of Absorption. The problem here is to find a crafter for this (or to be able to do it yourself). But once you get it, you have a wand that gives you a 1st lvl and 1-4th sorcerer spell on each activation.

Imho these two items work really well together. The wand is better at action economy and cheaper, while the rod is for the higher lvl stuff that you might occasionally need. My recent Croesus the Merchant Prince build did abuse this. I mean, UMD is a skill with high gold costs. So what is better than a UMD build with the focus on gold generation?^^

[Crake]

(I didn't quote every post, but I did read em)

1)
Imho most people have a hard time to understand the limitation and exception set to "use class ability":

We have a general statement:


Followed immediately by a specific exception:


Which means, "emulating the use of the target ability for activation" is legal. And as we can see with alignment and race specific items, they work accordingly to the emulated stuff.
This doesn't stop the item's effect to give you a similar; enhanced; or identical effect as the class ability, if that is what the items effect does like in the case of the Rod of Absorption. And since the "effect" of the rod doesn't require you to expend spell slots, a UMD user can use the item's effect without causing dysfunctions.


2)
You still spend the rod's charges as normal. UMD lets you emulate the class feature (and eventual used class resources), but not the features of the "rod" (and neither the resources of the rod).

3)
Sure Runestaves are another nice option for UMD users. But the Rod of Absorbtion still superior in its effect. The sole downside is that it is kinda an expensive "consumable" item (like a wand with charges).
The defensive power shouldn't be ignored either. And having access to effectively all spells without any further actions needed (to draw the right runestaff/wand/scroll/...) is another point that makes it better than a collection of items to do the same thing. If you wanna be as flexible as the Rod of Absorption, you need to spend a lot of money.

___________________

4) Wand of "Sanctum Spell: Arcane Fusion"
This is the lil brother of the Rod of Absorption. The problem here is to find a crafter for this (or to be able to do it yourself). But once you get it, you have a wand that gives you a 1st lvl and 1-4th sorcerer spell on each activation.

Imho these two items work really well together. The wand is better at action economy and cheaper, while the rod is for the higher lvl stuff that you might occasionally need. My recent Croesus the Merchant Prince build did abuse this. I mean, UMD is a skill with high gold costs. So what is better than a UMD build with the focus on gold generation?^^

You havent done much to really change my opinion on whether the rod of absorption trick works in the first place. Runestaves at least more closely match the example in the phb, where they provide the effect, and the “power source” is being emulated, but I dont buy that UMD gives you a quantum state of universal knowledge.

The arcane fusion wand is even less plausible, because you’ve now gone from UMDing the item, to UMDing the spell effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

You havent done much to really change my opinion on whether the rod of absorption trick works in the first place. Runestaves at least more closely match the example in the phb, where they provide the effect, and the “power source” is being emulated, but I dont buy that UMD gives you a quantum state of universal knowledge.

The arcane fusion wand is even less plausible, because you’ve now gone from UMDing the item, to UMDing the spell effect.

UMD doesn't give "you a quantum state of universal knowledge".
It's more like "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge" for activating magic items.

Think about it. What does UMD do? It lets you pretend to have all the magical knowledge and abilities needed to "activate magic items".
Imho this is a perfect match for "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge".
Yes, the knowledge you pretend to have for activating items is gigantic. But you couldn't explain anything of what you are actually doing there to activate the item. You couldn't teach anyone the "regular activation" of the item. You could at best teach others how you pretend to know and how your activation trick works (UMD).


And I don't see any rule base that would deny you to UMD a wand's "effect". The spells effect is part of the wand's effect. Just because the spell's effect is more specific than the general wand's effect doesn't stop it being from being part of the wand's effect. Sorry but you are seeing restrictions/dysfunctions that aren't there. Or can you provide any rules for this assumption?
Imho as long as it is part of the items effect, it is legal for UMD (ab)use and behaves according to the emulated stats provided. I don't see any problems by RAW.
Sure it has very cheesy applications, but that is the broken nature of UMD. Take a Alter Self wand and pretend to be a "dragon". While that is "broken" from a common sense of view, it is RAW. It's the same level of stupidity as "Healing by Drowning", which is also RAW but broken from a common sense point of view (unless you are in a Hollywood movie^^).

[Crake]

UMD doesn't give "you a quantum state of universal knowledge".
It's more like "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge" for activating magic items.

Think about it. What does UMD do? It lets you pretend to have all the magical knowledge and abilities needed to "activate magic items".
Imho this is a perfect match for "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge".
Yes, the knowledge you pretend to have for activating items is gigantic. But you couldn't explain anything of what you are actually doing there to activate the item. You couldn't teach anyone the "regular activation" of the item. You could at best teach others how you pretend to know and how your activation trick works (UMD).


And I don't see any rule base that would deny you to UMD a wand's "effect". The spells effect is part of the wand's effect. Just because the spell's effect is more specific than the general wand's effect doesn't stop it being from being part of the wand's effect. Sorry but you are seeing restrictions/dysfunctions that aren't there. Or can you provide any rules for this assumption?
Imho as long as it is part of the items effect, it is legal for UMD (ab)use and behaves according to the emulated stats provided. I don't see any problems by RAW.
Sure it has very cheesy applications, but that is the broken nature of UMD. Take a Alter Self wand and pretend to be a "dragon". While that is "broken" from a common sense of view, it is RAW. It's the same level of stupidity as "Healing by Drowning", which is also RAW but broken from a common sense point of view (unless you are in a Hollywood movie^^).

I think the issue is youre conflating “activating an item” and “adjudicating the effect of the item”, and thats where the difference of opinion lies.

By your logic, I could use a pearl of power to recover a spell slot I hadn't prepared, of any spell in existence, if I provided a sufficient UMD check, because "preparing spells" is a class feature.

Just because you can activate an item, doesn't mean you can necessarily utilize it's effect if you lack the ability to harness whatever it is that it's producing.

[ericgrau]

The main area they'll be lacking is offensive magic, since magic items all have terrible DCs and usually bad CL (though you might be able to just buy them at higher level) and if they can't boost the CL of the items, dispels will be a problem.

There are plenty of great offensive spells not dependent on DC or CL. Some of the best ones in fact. Including a lot of the battlefield control. And actually staffs let you use your mental ability score if it means a higher DC.

Dispels are pretty uncommon and even when they do happen they eat an enemy turn for only a portion of the spells. Against 1 spell per 40' diameter area it's always a net loss for the enemy, unless it's a weaker foe casting it.

Mostly it's an issue of item spells not being affordable until much higher level than when a caster first gets them. But eventually even 9th level spells get easy to spam as epic treasure greatly outpaces spending. Even on consumables like staffs. I had an epic character that "abused" (it's an intended strat) it heavily with only 1 level in wizard. He had more utility than the party full casters mostly because they didn't put in the prep time. On top of very good combat magic. The full casters still had better epic degree spell power.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think the issue is youre conflating “activating an item” and “adjudicating the effect of the item”, and thats where the difference of opinion lies.

By your logic, I could use a pearl of power to recover a spell slot I hadn't prepared, of any spell in existence, if I provided a sufficient UMD check, because "preparing spells" is a class feature.

Nope that is not my logic here.
"Preparing spells is a class feature" yes. But that is not the activation requirement here:

..to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast.

The requirements here is that "a prepared spell was already cast".

UMD can't emulate "prepared spells" nor "that you already used it before".
Because "Prepared Spells" is a status effect/values on you. You can pretend to "prepare spells", but you can't pretend to have "spells prepared". These are different things. UMD sole allows you to emulate the use of an ability, and doesn't allow to emulate the resulting status effect changes

This is why the Rod of Absorption sole works with emulating spontaneous caster spells when used by an UMD character. Because "Spells Known" is part of the "Spells:" ability we are emulating. We emulate the spell selection of a Sorcerer of X.th lvl as example. Those are part of the class ability and thus legal for emulation.

Just because you can activate an item, doesn't mean you can necessarily utilize it's effect if you lack the ability to harness whatever it is that it's producing.

While I agree with this statement on a general base, I don't see it affecting the current debate.

[Crake]

Nope that is not my logic here.
"Preparing spells is a class feature" yes. But that is not the activation requirement here:


The requirements here is that "a prepared spell was already cast".

UMD can't emulate "prepared spells" nor "that you already used it before".
Because "Prepared Spells" is a status effect/values on you. You can pretend to "prepare spells", but you can't pretend to have "spells prepared". These are different things. UMD sole allows you to emulate the use of an ability, and doesn't allow to emulate the resulting status effect changes

This is why the Rod of Absorption sole works with emulating spontaneous caster spells when used by an UMD character. Because "Spells Known" is part of the "Spells:" ability we are emulating. We emulate the spell selection of a Sorcerer of X.th lvl as example. Those are part of the class ability and thus legal for emulation.




While I agree with this statement on a general base, I don't see it affecting the current debate.

I dunno, sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to me.

Knowing a specific spell from your spells known class feature for a rod of absorption

Vs

Having had a specific spell prepared from your list of spells for a pearl of power

Vs

Having had a spell slot to recover from your spontaneous spell slots for a memento magicka.

They’re all second order effects beyond just activating the magic item.

[Gruftzwerg]

I dunno, sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to me.

Knowing a specific spell from your spells known class feature for a rod of absorption

Vs

Having had a specific spell prepared from your list of spells for a pearl of power

Vs

Having had a spell slot to recover from your spontaneous spell slots for a memento magicka.

They’re all second order effects beyond just activating the magic item.

Knowing a spell is the passive use the "spells" class feature.
Casting a spell is the active use of the "spells" class feature
Preparation of your daily spells is also the use of the "spells" class feature.

But a "prepared spell" is the result of using the ability. (using the ability would be preparing the spell as said)
edit: It's a variable in your status bar. Not the active use of the ability.

To give you maybe a more obvious example:

Imagine 2 different items:
A) e.g +1d6 Sneak Attack dmg, but requires you to have Sneak Attack
B) requires you "to have hit something with Sneak Attack dmg" to apply a bleed

UMD can emulate A but not B.

You can emulate "spells known", "preparing a spell" and "casting a spell", but not to have "prepared spells" nor "expended spells(slots), since those are the resulting (after-) effects of the use.

[Crake]

Knowing a spell is the passive use the "spells" class feature.
Casting a spell is the active use of the "spells" class feature
Preparation of your daily spells is also the use of the "spells" class feature.

But a "prepared spell" is the result of using the ability. (using the ability would be preparing the spell as said)
edit: It's a variable in your status bar. Not the active use of the ability.

To give you maybe a more obvious example:

Imagine 2 different items:
A) e.g +1d6 Sneak Attack dmg, but requires you to have Sneak Attack
B) requires you "to have hit something with Sneak Attack dmg" to apply a bleed

UMD can emulate A but not B.

You can emulate "spells known", "preparing a spell" and "casting a spell", but not to have "prepared spells" nor "expended spells(slots), since those are the resulting (after-) effects of the use.

Your equivalent here is using A, but saying "Since I can emulate having 9d6 sneak attack, then the item gives me 10d6+2 sneak attack".

Again, the difference is you're conflating activating the item with adjudicating it's effects.

Sure, you can activate the rod of absorption, but that's where the emulation ability of UMD ends. Once the item is activated, you gain the ability to expend the rod's power, but you still don't actually know any spells to expend that power with. The item has been activated, but you gain no benefit from the effect.