ToB Help

[Holocron Coder]

I'm only passingly familiar with Tob:Bo9S, but what little I know of it seems very interesting.

However, that is not the crux of my problem. I want to create a character for a campaign. ECL 2, 25pt buy for stats, max health. Races are limited (so I'm leaning towards human)

The idea I have is rather simple, really. Big, strong human with a love for combat, but otherwise friendly. Looking to use some sort of large hammer as a weapon, but barring that, anything sufficiently large.

So, how should I build this guy? Where I should be looking for future advancement? I'd like to have a decent number of options and not a one-trick pony, if at all possible...

Help me, O sages of Gaming

[Xefas]

My favorite is a Crusader focused on Devoted Spirit and White Raven, so that while he's beating the snot out of enemies, he's also giving bonuses to his party members. If you want this sort of thing, make sure to get Martial Spirit for your stance, as well as Crusader's Strike and Leading the Attack. At second level, you'll practically be the party cleric with the healing and buffing you'll churn out.

My advice would be to take Extra Granted Maneuver and Vital Recovery for your human bonus feat. Grab a greatsword, since I think the 2h hammer is called a Maul, and takes Exotic Proficiency. Unless, of course, you can convince the DM to homebrew a martial 2h hammer for you (maybe just ask if it can have the same stats as a greatsword, only bludgeoning damage?).

If it's just personal damage you're looking for, though, go with Warblade. Take Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon maneuvers and go nuts.

Swordsages aren't really the strongman type, so don't worry about them.

[Prophaniti]

Warblade would probably fit better with your character concept, all flashy fighter, likes to show off. Stone dragon would be an excellent one to focus on, but it'd take to long to list ALL the cool stuff available to you. You do have a copy of the book at your disposal, right?

Also, Mauls are martial weapons in Arms and Equipment guide, and in Complete Warrior can be wielded one-handed (exotic) or two-handed (martial) like a Bastard Sword.

[Darrin]

If it's just personal damage you're looking for, though, go with Warblade. Take Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon maneuvers and go nuts.

While I concur that Crusader is probably the best pick here, I'm still mystified why people keep recommending Stone Dragon. For full BAB classes like Crusader and Warblade, particularly after ECL 6, it's more effective to focus on boosts and counters so you can still full attack rather than waste your standard actions on a single attack maneuver.

There's only one Stone Dragon maneuver worth taking: Mountain Hammer, and Crusaders can get the copycat Foehammer in Divine Spirit instead. Charging Minotaur can be useful early on, particularly with the Leading the Charge stance, but should be replaced later on with Pouncing Charge or Bounding Assault. The 9th level capstone maneuver doesn't have any prereqs, so if you want it, there's no need to take a lot of Stone Dragon maneuvers.

Warblades in particular are going to get a lot more bang out of Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, and White Raven before they should even need to go near Stone Dragon.

As far as the weapon goes... for Crusaders, Greatsword is still your best pick, since 2d6 is more likely to roll extra damage when combined with Aura of Chaos. For Warblade... EWP + Oversize TWF can be lots of fun, and you can switch your EWP to anything else via your Weapon Aptitude ability.

[Fax Celestis]

While I concur that Crusader is probably the best pick here, I'm still mystified why people keep recommending Stone Dragon. For full BAB classes like Crusader and Warblade, particularly after ECL 6, it's more effective to focus on boosts and counters so you can still full attack rather than waste your standard actions on a single attack maneuver.

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

[Blasterfire]

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

You could dip lion totem barbarian, even if it is kind of cheesy.

[AstralFire]

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

Not to mention that optimization be damned, ToB maneuvers are just damned cooler than a full attack. And not that much weaker.

[Fax Celestis]

You could dip lion totem barbarian, even if it is kind of cheesy.

Pounce, contrary to popular belief, doesn't let you move and then full-attack. It lets you full-attack at the end of a charge, an action that first lowers your AC (with a moderate bonus to your to-hit) and requires you to move at least 10' in an unhampered, unblocked straight line towards your foe. You may actually provoke AoOs from movement during this too, which does lead to problems versus foes with larger reach than yours, as well as groups of mobs or the legion of sentinels spell.

[Person_Man]

A Crusader with high Con, Stone Power feat, and Martial Spirit Stance. Stone Power gives you temporary hit points every turn. Martial Spirit heals you whenever you hit an enemy. For extra fun, pick up the Die Hard feat or 1 level of Cleric with the Renewal Domain.

It's a great low level combo that's always on.

[Jerthanis]

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

Unless you're fighting tough, melee-focused enemies like Golems, Dire animals, NPC fighter types, NPC cleric types, a good portion of the lower end Demons, Devils and Undead, almost every monstrous humanoid or magical beast...

...Basically, when I read the Monster Manual, I see a lot of monsters who are mostly meant for melee.

If you're fighting a lot of flying, invisible wizards (I played a game with no less than five separate fights with five different flying, invisible wizards once.), you're probably not helped much by Tome of Battle, since it's got so little in terms of ranged capacity, though swordsages get a little, plus a little vertical maneuverability.

[Roderick_BR]

If you just want to be a warrior, go with warblade. It's simpler than crusader, and have access to some good weapon maneuvers.
Stone Dragon is useful at lower levels when you need more damage with less hits, and to bypass damage reduction.
For weapon, I suggest the goliath greathammer (races of stone). Exotic weapon, base damage equal to a greataxe, and multiplier is x4, +2 to sunder rolls against enemies weapons and shields.

[KIDS]

For someone focused purely on being a warrior (and personality has nothing to do with it), the warblade does the job perfectly. Stone Dragon fits well with hammers (don't give in to "unoptimal" claims, it's like a 10% difference if anything), white raven is if you like teamwork and spotlight, diamond mind is great for dueling and fluidity and iron heart is the general "warrior" school. I'd throw out tiger claw if I were you.

[Fax Celestis]

Unless you're fighting tough, melee-focused enemies like Golems, Dire animals, NPC fighter types, NPC cleric types, a good portion of the lower end Demons, Devils and Undead, almost every monstrous humanoid or magical beast...

...Basically, when I read the Monster Manual, I see a lot of monsters who are mostly meant for melee.

If you're fighting a lot of flying, invisible wizards (I played a game with no less than five separate fights with five different flying, invisible wizards once.), you're probably not helped much by Tome of Battle, since it's got so little in terms of ranged capacity, though swordsages get a little, plus a little vertical maneuverability.

"Meant for melee" does not mean "stands still". Combatants are mobile, because a still target is a dead target.

[AstralFire]

Specifically, just as a full-attack lets you bring your full might to bear on a target, it also means that everyone else can and will bring their full might to bear on you. Mounted Archery or Mounted Casting is the only situation in which it's a good idea to regularly spend a full-round action doing something.

[Jerthanis]

"Meant for melee" does not mean "stands still". Combatants are mobile, because a still target is a dead target.

So do you give all your foes Spring Attack, Flyby Attack or make them mounted builds? How else do they manage to get close enough, attack, then move away again? It seems to me like most enemies who are close enough to attack once are close enough to be full attacked in response. Unless they're Huge [tall] or bigger, they can't move close enough to hit without being able to suffer a reprisal of full attacks, and once melee is joined, it's difficult to disengage without effectively just giving your opponent more attacks.

Just wondering, because in our games, melee type monsters generally close to melee and duke it out, and if losing, flee...

[Fax Celestis]

So do you give all your foes Spring Attack, Flyby Attack or make them mounted builds? How else do they manage to get close enough, attack, then move away again? It seems to me like most enemies who are close enough to attack once are close enough to be full attacked in response. Unless they're Huge [tall] or bigger, they can't move close enough to hit without being able to suffer a reprisal of full attacks, and once melee is joined, it's difficult to disengage without effectively just giving your opponent more attacks.

Just wondering, because in our games, melee type monsters generally close to melee and duke it out, and if losing, flee...

I make encounters dynamic. The main failings of most encounter design is that the defending force (that is, the monsters) isn't prepared for the PCs arrival and are made up entirely of a single kind of foe. This is poor tactics.

Thus, I often place archers on perches over the battlefield, add one or two save-or-suck casters into the back row, and have fighters who rely on skirmishing tactics (leave cover to strike then back to cover) to harry their foes. There are bruisers, too, who merely wade in and soak hits, but they're not the only foe I have in the fight. Adding in alternative sources of danger (such as archers and casters as I've enumerated above) means that weaker, skirmisher-type targets (rogues, for instance) will go for them to aid their more combative allies. When this happens, the bruisers and skirmishers wolf-pack the now-lone skirmisher (whether by AoO or by repeated harrying tactics) before returning to the fray, so that the less-melee centric archers can damage melee-centric targets from a safe distance--and, should they need to, because of this softening up, they'll be able to handle a skirmisher-type who survived the assault and is attacking them now.

The use of controller casters (or even just kobolds with tanglefoot bags) cuts mobility to a minimum, with casters being a better option since nine times out of ten they'll be able to immobilize foes while still granting full range of movement to their allies, further augmenting the skirmisher tacticians' abilities and allowing the bruisers to do what they do best.

Honestly, the PCs have a full repertoire of abilities: why shouldn't the monsters? It certainly makes combat far more exciting.

[Starbuck_II]

So do you give all your foes Spring Attack, Flyby Attack or make them mounted builds? How else do they manage to get close enough, attack, then move away again? It seems to me like most enemies who are close enough to attack once are close enough to be full attacked in response. Unless they're Huge [tall] or bigger, they can't move close enough to hit without being able to suffer a reprisal of full attacks, and once melee is joined, it's difficult to disengage without effectively just giving your opponent more attacks.

Just wondering, because in our games, melee type monsters generally close to melee and duke it out, and if losing, flee...

Warblade has Tumble to move away.

[Holocron Coder]

I see I sparked some sort of mild debate. I am now a forumer

Hehe.

Anyway, it's looking to be a Human Warblade 2, focusing on a large hammer or greatsword.

Problem being, I only get 25 point-buy, which leaves little for the somewhat MAD Warblade (str, con, int, dex... plus poor will save).

Does it matter if its an all-ToB campaign?

[Neon Knight]

I see I sparked some sort of mild debate. I am now a forumer

Hehe.

Anyway, it's looking to be a Human Warblade 2, focusing on a large hammer or greatsword.

Problem being, I only get 25 point-buy, which leaves little for the somewhat MAD Warblade (str, con, int, dex... plus poor will save).

Does it matter if its an all-ToB campaign?

INT isn't that important. It power a handful of secondary abilities that, while useful to have, are not vital to success. You can sacrifice INT and still be okay.

Thus, you are now no more MAD than your average Fighter.

[AslanCross]

For weapon, I suggest the goliath greathammer (races of stone). Exotic weapon, base damage equal to a greataxe, and multiplier is x4, +2 to sunder rolls against enemies weapons and shields.

The greathorn minotaur greathammer from Monster Manual IV has all that, just that its crit is 19-20/x4. No errata for it. (MMIV came after Races of Stone too, so it even seems like a replacement.)

Anyway, Stone Dragon does fit your description of your character. The Mountain Hammers are pretty cool. Devoted Spirit (which only the Crusader has access to) also has Greater Divine Surge, which allows you to channel your CON into a massive, stinging smack.

Then again, if your character is more of an "pure skill" warrior, Warblade would fit the fluff better.

[Lord Tataraus]

I see I sparked some sort of mild debate. I am now a forumer

Hehe.

Anyway, it's looking to be a Human Warblade 2, focusing on a large hammer or greatsword.

Problem being, I only get 25 point-buy, which leaves little for the somewhat MAD Warblade (str, con, int, dex... plus poor will save).

Does it matter if its an all-ToB campaign?

Probably not (unless you face casters). I'd personally put Int above Con for the Warblade because they get D12 hit die and Int is very synergistic, especially for skills.

Edit: It seems Kasrkin and I have differing opinions

[MeklorIlavator]

Eh, the 25 point buy is hurting every character design in the campaign to some extent, mainly because so many feats require a 13 to use. Still, its not much better as a crusader, normally Str, Con, and Cha, but to do some of the really fun stuff you need Int or Dex.

[Dausuul]

There's only one Stone Dragon maneuver worth taking: Mountain Hammer, and Crusaders can get the copycat Foehammer in Divine Spirit instead.

Nitpick: Foehammer is not an adequate substitute for Mountain Hammer. While it bypasses DR, it does not bypass hardness... which is a large part of what makes Mountain Hammer so good. Lockpicks? We don't need no stinkin' lockpicks!

[Darrin]

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

Touche. Good point, although if I'm going to spend just a standard action on a single attack, Stone Dragon is the last place I look (unless I'm dealing with DR).

For most of my ToB builds, I consider Full Attack > Strike (particularly if Full Attack includes a Boost), and I make sure I have some other means of movement. Sudden Leap, Mirrored Pursuit, Leaping Flame, Press the Advantage, Shadow Blink, Quicksilver Motion, and Wolf Pack Tactics can all be combined with full attacks. The Travel Devotion is also seven flavors of awesome... hopefully I'll have an opportunity to try that out sometime soon.

That Minotaur Greathammer sounds tempting, too...

[Serenity]

I think a major reason that the ToB classes are an improvement over core melee classes is that they don't need to rely on Full Attacks. Sure, in most situations, the damage you'd deal out from a Full Attack is superior to what you'd get from a strike, but there are many, many situations in which getting full attacks is difficult, and being able to contribute something with stuff like Mountain Hammers or Nightmare Blades is really sweet.

Plus, from a flavor standpoint, I would rather be unleashing cool moves and tricks rather than 'Full Power Attack for Full!'

[Person_Man]

It's because, let's be honest, the number of times your foe is going to stand still long enough for you to smack them with a full-attack are (or should be) near zero.

That's an excellent point. Which is why all melee builds should have at least one of the following:

1) Have battlefield control to deter enemy movement.
2) Have Hustle or other Swift Action movement.
3) Have Pounce.
3) Use Standard Action maneuvers abilities.

[Frosty]

And thank god for Complete Champion. Almost every melee-er can now access Pounce.