Pathfinder 2E Getting started advice

[Tvtyrant]

Hey all,

My DM has elected to move our group to 2e from D&D 5E. I'm fairly well versed in 3X, 4 and 5 now and just wanted some pointers on where to start.

1. It looks like the to hit and ac fall behind unless you really minmax them. If you aren't a fighter what's the best way to do that? How do natural attack classes hit with their attacks?

2. Is there a non class specific way to stack damage for classes like Cleric and Champion that are melee oriented but don't get big damage boosts? Should I multiclass say Barbarian or Fighter?

3. Do the summons keep up with monsters in combat? Do caster's defenses keep up well or do they need a lot of babying?

Sorry if that's too much, just trying to wrap my head around the numbers after playing 5E for years.

[gesalt]

1) 18 in your offense stat, as much into dex as needed to maximize your AC based on your armor. After that, keep up on your mandatory fundamental weapon and armor runes.

2) you aren't really stacking bonus damage in this system. Champion can use blade ally to eventually get an extra fire rune in their weapon and you can archetype barbarian or something, but that's ill advised. Warpriest doesn't actually work as a long term option because it doesn't scale its weapon and doesn't scale casting or AC any higher than cloistered cleric, but doesn't scale casting as high.

3) summons are almost entirely unused because of how awful it is in 2e. They fall behind faster as you level and are largely irrelevant outside of the occasional spell or to throw down hallways to trigger traps. Casters defenses are mediocre but there's no real way to mitigate it aside from investing in dex/con/wis which you do on every non-plate character.

[Kurald Galain]

1. It looks like the to hit and ac fall behind unless you really minmax them. If you aren't a fighter what's the best way to do that?

If you aren't a fighter, then the best way is to switch to fighter

Seriously though, the things you're looking for don't exist. Aside from the obvious (maxxing your primary ability and getting the next "plus" of magical weapon as soon as possible) your to-hit is pretty much fixed. The same applies to the damage of e.g. clerics, and to the defenses of casters.

3. Do the summons keep up with monsters in combat?

Not at all.

[Ignimortis]

Hey all,

My DM has elected to move our group to 2e from D&D 5E. I'm fairly well versed in 3X, 4 and 5 now and just wanted some pointers on where to start.

1. It looks like the to hit and ac fall behind unless you really minmax them. If you aren't a fighter what's the best way to do that? How do natural attack classes hit with their attacks?

2. Is there a non class specific way to stack damage for classes like Cleric and Champion that are melee oriented but don't get big damage boosts? Should I multiclass say Barbarian or Fighter?

3. Do the summons keep up with monsters in combat? Do caster's defenses keep up well or do they need a lot of babying?

Sorry if that's too much, just trying to wrap my head around the numbers after playing 5E for years.

1) You don't. Put an 18 into your attack stat at level 1 and as much into DEX as you'd need (0 for heavy armor, as much as you can for light armor, from +3 to +1 for medium Armor (counterbalanced by your STR, usually - if you can wear a STR16 breastplate without penalty, you don't need more than 12 DEX, etc)) you're done. After that, only weapon runes will improve your attack and AC

2) Multiclassing works differently in PF2. Read up on how Archetypes function (you trade out your class feats for other classes' basic features and eventually lower-tier feats). That being said, no, there isn't. Damage in PF2 is strictly rationed, and the vast majority of it will come from Striking runes on your weapons (your GM will have to give them to you on time, or you'll fall behind massively - if they don't want to give out too many items, look into Automatic Bonus Progression rules).

3) No. They really, really, really don't. Summons are borderline useless outside of utility, and tend to get worse as you increase in level. Casters do not get good defenses and need to be protected.

[Starbuck_II]

Hey all,

My DM has elected to move our group to 2e from D&D 5E. I'm fairly well versed in 3X, 4 and 5 now and just wanted some pointers on where to start.

1. It looks like the to hit and ac fall behind unless you really minmax them. If you aren't a fighter what's the best way to do that? How do natural attack classes hit with their attacks?

2. Is there a non class specific way to stack damage for classes like Cleric and Champion that are melee oriented but don't get big damage boosts? Should I multiclass say Barbarian or Fighter?

3. Do the summons keep up with monsters in combat? Do caster's defenses keep up well or do they need a lot of babying?

Sorry if that's too much, just trying to wrap my head around the numbers after playing 5E for years.

Sources of hit bonus when muticlassing:
1) Fighter (better weapon training)
2) Investigator (Investigator's Stratagem assuming you have high Int)

Sources of Dam bonus when muticlassing:
1) thaumaturge (give enemy a weakness to you of 2)
2) Swahbuckler (finishing precision: adds +1 dam and +1d6 on finishers)
3) Rogue (1d6 sneak attack eventually)
4) Barb (Rage: +2 dam in melee)

Sources of AC boost when multiclassing:
Champion

[Ignimortis]

Sources of hit bonus when muticlassing:
1) Fighter (better weapon training)
2) Investigator (Investigator's Stratagem assuming you have high Int)

Sources of Dam bonus when muticlassing:
1) thaumaturge (give enemy a weakness to you of 2)
2) Swahbuckler (finishing precision: adds +1 dam and +1d6 on finishers)
3) Rogue (1d6 sneak attack eventually)
4) Barb (Rage: +2 dam in melee)

Sources of AC boost when multiclassing:
Champion

Neither Fighter nor Champion actually get their improved to-hit/AC progression rates when taken as archetypes. You can get Expert proficiency in armor at 14 as an archetype feat, but any other martial bar the Champion has gotten it at level 11 (and will become Masters at level 17). Champion has had it since level 5. Similarly, Fighter dedication can be used to get Expert in weapons at level 12, but all martials have had Expert in weapons since level 5, and Fighter has it at level 1.

So, say, a Cleric taking Fighter/Champion dedications would get better to-hit or AC...but very late and they would still not be up to par compared to a straight-classed Fighter or Champion, or even, say, a Ranger (which doesn't get any improved progression tracks for either to-hit or AC).

[Tvtyrant]

Thanks all!

Some follow up questions as we make our team:

1. Is it better to just use cantrips for non-dedicated martials? If so is the Summoner best off just giving cantrips to their Eidolon and acting like a double-cantrip caster?

2. How does the Thaumaturge hit things in combat to use all their mechanics? Same with Rogue really.

[Starbuck_II]

Thanks all!

Some follow up questions as we make our team:

1. Is it better to just use cantrips for non-dedicated martials? If so is the Summoner best off just giving cantrips to their Eidolon and acting like a double-cantrip caster?

2. How does the Thaumaturge hit things in combat to use all their mechanics? Same with Rogue really.

1. It is an useful tactic

2. Lower their AC the usual ways: flatfoot (flanking, etc), frightened (intimidate, fear stuff), etc.

Remember, they get a feat to use Intimidate/Deception skill with Divine Disharmony works as a better Deception (+2 if creature has divine spells or devoted to a deity).

Use Scrolls with Scroll Thaumaturgy to cast a buff like True Strike?
Use Talisman Thaumaturgy to make free talismans for a few bonuses?

At 10th lv Twin Weakness auto deals damage if you don't Crit fail.

[Kurald Galain]

1. Is it better to just use cantrips for non-dedicated martials?

No, it is better for them to use weapon attacks. Cantrips are markedly much weaker than weapon attacks.

[ahyangyi]

Neither Fighter nor Champion actually get their improved to-hit/AC progression rates when taken as archetypes. You can get Expert proficiency in armor at 14 as an archetype feat, but any other martial bar the Champion has gotten it at level 11 (and will become Masters at level 17). Champion has had it since level 5. Similarly, Fighter dedication can be used to get Expert in weapons at level 12, but all martials have had Expert in weapons since level 5, and Fighter has it at level 1.

So, say, a Cleric taking Fighter/Champion dedications would get better to-hit or AC...but very late and they would still not be up to par compared to a straight-classed Fighter or Champion, or even, say, a Ranger (which doesn't get any improved progression tracks for either to-hit or AC).

Having some options, even not up-to-par, also helps.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I suggest you guys use the Free Archetype rule. At least in my experience, it actually enables the game to deliver in the promise of some flexibility when building your character.

It made my life immensely easier as someone that just wanted a basic archer ranger with a pet.

[Ignimortis]

Having some options, even not up-to-par, also helps.

Unless you're running with Free Archetype (highly recommended btw, without it PF2 simply does not deliver on any promise of varied charbuilding), you're losing a lot of power from your class feats being replaced by archetype feats that aren't doing anything to help you in your main role. With Free Archetype, sure, you can get there, but it's gonna be very late for most campaigns.

And, well, having a -3 or worse (because you cannot have your STR up to par either if you start as a non-STR class, so you're losing -2 from proficiency and -1 from your STR being worse than expected) to-hit in PF2 is...gruesome. It pretty much means that you're going to need good setup to perform as well as an unbuffed martial, and those don't do particularly well without setup, either.

[ahyangyi]

Unless you're running with Free Archetype (highly recommended btw, without it PF2 simply does not deliver on any promise of varied charbuilding), you're losing a lot of power from your class feats being replaced by archetype feats that aren't doing anything to help you in your main role. With Free Archetype, sure, you can get there, but it's gonna be very late for most campaigns.

And, well, having a -3 or worse (because you cannot have your STR up to par either if you start as a non-STR class, so you're losing -2 from proficiency and -1 from your STR being worse than expected) to-hit in PF2 is...gruesome. It pretty much means that you're going to need good setup to perform as well as an unbuffed martial, and those don't do particularly well without setup, either.

I'm just setting the expectation really low. The Cleric's Strike action does not need to be compared to the fighter's. It just needs to be occasionally more appropriate than Stride or Raise a Shield.

[Tvtyrant]

I suggest you guys use the Free Archetype rule. At least in my experience, it actually enables the game to deliver in the promise of some flexibility when building your character.

It made my life immensely easier as someone that just wanted a basic archer ranger with a pet.

I have noticed that the characters tend to be pretty locked in.

They also clearly learned a lot from 3.5/pathfinder. The Fireworks path doesn't give you extra regents for instance. Ironically making it better for any non-alchemist since they actually gain a benefit.