Optimizing for lower levels. Best 7th level character.

[Dork_Forge]

Technically not because a blindfold blocks light, so you’re not even seeing the blindfold. However forget about physics just RAW the blindfold confers the blind condition so RAW you can’t use abilities that require sight until the condition is remedied.

Darkvision gives a lovely shot of grey fabric, this isn't real life.

As for blindfold=Blinded... according to what? Blindfold isn't an item in the game, nor is being blindfolded explicitly covered in the PHB or DMG. As far as I can see there's no RAW basis to deny this, Darkvision ignores the lack of light problem.

Do you have a source to deny this?

[Unoriginal]

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them.

Indeed.

- A second bat not only appearing but conversing and not being noticed is, a stretch, but it didn't go anywhere anyway
- Feels like the bat got away with an entire turn (removing the blindfold) that they shouldn't have...

Keeping in mind that the Xvarts know the Bats who are allowed in the lighthouse.

- The scouts are explicitly split with one looking out for the sky and one looking out for the ground, they don't monitor the floor they're on (per the challenge text)

Technically they're both looking at the sky, but one is looking at the sky above the sea and one is looking at the sky above the ground.

- DDoor feels really handwaved here, the Owl scouted 120ft. and then the Wizard ported 500'. A change in elevation, an animal, rock, or errant tree instant downs the Wizard with 4d6 force damage.

That would make for a fun ending to the escape attempt, tbf.

-Readying a spell means casting it then holding the cast, the Xvarts see a spellcaster with free mouth and hands cast a spell and then approach instead of slinging to death?

Xvarts would probably wonder how they're not dead for a second, then sling the foe to death. Pulp Fiction style.

- You're treating manacles chained to a wall like worn/carried equipment, Unoriginal gave a clear answer to your WildShape question. Going smaller is escape, same size doesn't benefit and you simply can't go larger.

Indeed.

I see Wild Shape as a physical transformation à la Animorph cover, with limbs physically growing/decreasing in size, or retracting into the body if the creature you're turning into doesn't have them, so if you have your limbs restrained the morph can't happen.

- Yes, you got the stairs wrong, and it does matter, the Druid summoned 8 Large creatures in a very small confined space. You can only summon creatures to spaces you can see, so that's one Rothe upstairs max, that leaves 7 large creatures to fit on the 2nd floor with the Druid. At best that's extremely awkward to move around in for the Rothes themselves., however, I'm not entirely sure you can even fit 7 large creatures on that floor along with the Druid and Xvarts.

7 Large creatures means 28 squares on the ground. I checked, there is room for them on the floor and then some, but yeah, awkward to move around still.

- The Mind Master spends an entire turn on Invisible, instead of using Mind Mastery as directed. Even if he doesn't use it on the PC, he could get a Rothe to attack the Druid or block their way. This doesn't seem to line up with the 'how the monsters act' section.

True. Could even have the Rothe walks out of the lighthouse to its death.

- There's a lot of the Druid moving to avoid being within 30ft. of the Mind Master. It's a 45ft. circle, if they're on the same floor (which they certainly seem to be) it's impossible to prevent that by just movement.

And the lighthouse itself is 35ft tall, roof included, so anyone on top floor is still within 30ft of anyone inside the building.

- The Ironshadow retreats 'he isn't here to die' ...where did you get that idea? You just arbitrarily made the biggest threat flee?

That part is puzzling. Hobgoblins are lawful evil and known for their iron-clad discipline, even for the grunts.

[Eldariel]

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them.

That's not how sight works. You see light. If light is blocked, you see nothing. Not even the thing blocking the light.

Not that it really matters, I think the Iron Shadow is the bigger issue. Mind Master has 120' Darkvision meaning he'll fairly accurately see where you land being able to inform the Iron Shadow, and the Iron Shadow can keep up while attacking up to 4 times a turn, meaning Protective Field is not that useful. In the run you made, if Iron Shadow just moves 80' (Expeditious Retreat) and Shadow Jaunts 30', he's about within 10' unless you try to swim away (a potentially valid strategy for Psi War) and gets his 4 attacks vs. AC 14. And next round he can repeat.

- Any creature suddenly porting into the room is suspicious AF, regardless of if it's another bat or not
- A second bat not only appearing but conversing and not being noticed is, a stretch, but it didn't go anywhere anyway
- Feels like the bat got away with an entire turn (removing the blindfold) that they shouldn't have...
- Sleep requires specifically 'fine sand,' assuming any old beach sand tracked in would work feels like a really big stretch, especially since the lighthouse isn't on the beach to begin with... But also identifying and gathering it as nothing more than an object interaction?
- I think the Wizard did the last Misty Step into darkness, as a human with no features that grant darkvision that shouldn't have been possible.

- I'd say all real sand, especially beach/ocean sand, is "fine sand" as such (it's chemical composition is silicondioxide and it occurs specifically on shores and seabed, as sea wears down on the surface). I could imagine old stone stairs to have plenty of sand on them to just pick up as you walk past them; then again, they might not. That's why I rolled the percentile. But that doesn't really matter, it was a failure anyways.
- Bat appearing is suspicious of course but you have two drunk Xvarts; I don't imagine they could link the bat appearing to the Wizard or even notice it immediately. I did have them notice it after 6 seconds: given the situation, I think that's reasonable.
- Good point on the Misty Step, I agree with your point here. Didn't really matter but it's good to keep in mind: the last jump would be impossible anyways..

- The scouts are explicitly split with one looking out for the sky and one looking out for the ground, they don't monitor the floor they're on (per the challenge text)
- Like Unoriginal said, it's a bit of a leap that wall = exterior wall above ground.
- DDoor feels really handwaved here, the Owl scouted 120ft. and then the Wizard ported 500'. A change in elevation, an animal, rock, or errant tree instant downs the Wizard with 4d6 force damage.

Well, Owl's speed is 60' and it got an action; that's 120' of movement (dash) and 120' further of sight; that should be more than enough to ascertain the inclination of the land.

- Readying a spell means casting it then holding the cast, the Xvarts see a spellcaster with free mouth and hands cast a spell and then approach instead of slinging to death?
- Abjurer casts Shield and gets 13 points? This makes no sense... Shield should regen 2 points for the Ward, seeing as the PC was already beaten unconscious after a missions the Ward should be depleted, but even if this was activating it for the first time the numbers don't make sense.
- Also seem to have been planning to cast False Life, but it was stated that the Xvarts already finished the bottles

- That's reasonable. I see readying a spell more as holding until the trigger happens and then casting the spell.
- Ward was activated; we assumed all resources available.
- I find it REALLY hard to imagine the bottles are completely empty and it only takes "alcohol" to cast the spell.

- You're treating manacles chained to a wall like worn/carried equipment, Unoriginal gave a clear answer to your WildShape question. Going smaller is escape, same size doesn't benefit and you simply can't go larger.
- Yes, you got the stairs wrong, and it does matter, the Druid summoned 8 Large creatures in a very small confined space. You can only summon creatures to spaces you can see, so that's one Rothe upstairs max, that leaves 7 large creatures to fit on the 2nd floor with the Druid. At best that's extremely awkward to move around in for the Rothes themselves., however, I'm not entirely sure you can even fit 7 large creatures on that floor along with the Druid and Xvarts.
- The Mind Master spends an entire turn on Invisible, instead of using Mind Mastery as directed. Even if he doesn't use it on the PC, he could get a Rothe to attack the Druid or block their way. This doesn't seem to line up with the 'how the monsters act' section.
- There's a lot of the Druid moving to avoid being within 30ft. of the Mind Master. It's a 45ft. circle, if they're on the same floor (which they certainly seem to be) it's impossible to prevent that by just movement.
- There seems to be a lot of wasted monster action, like hobs spending a turn shifting weapons instead of moving into the Xvart's space to attack the sled dog one by one.
- The Ironshadow retreats 'he isn't here to die' ...where did you get that idea? You just arbitrarily made the biggest threat flee?

- I went with what I found reasonable. FWIW I could've turned into Velociraptor/Giant Rat or whatever; it doesn't really matter since the Wildshape form doesn't do anything but drop the stuff. I just like Snakes so I went with a Snake form (plus it seems beyond obvious to me that if you go from a humanoid with big limbs to a snake whose limbs are miniscule, you'll easily fall out of manacles - you can't just look at size, you have to look at the shape of the creature too). Plus the RAW of the ability says "equipment falls off" if I so want so I think that's a pretty good case for it just working regardless of form; but I find it really hard to justify an argument that like a snake would somehow be caught in manacles. Like it doesn't even matter if a snake has Manacles on, it could trivially slither out of them and a medium Snake should be a valid target. But if you'd like, pretend he turned into Velociraptor or Giant Rat or whatever instead. It changes absolutely nothing: the whole encounter plays out exactly the same.

- Mind Master wanted to get to the Druid and Invisibility lets him move without OAs. I took the optimal course of action here; he knows he needs to kill the Druid. Making a Rothé attack him...maybe? No Rothé was adjacent to him and there's no movement associated with the ability so I'm not sure if they'd be able to.

- Mind Master was 20' into the room on that turn to be able to hit any cover. He got knocked back 10' by Thunderwave. He only has 25' movement. He can't reach the Druid without Mind Mastery.

- You can't attack while occupying another creature's space. The Hobgoblins can't attack through the Xvart Speaker. That's the whole point of chokepoints in this edition and why the Rothés can't get **** done either.

- Iron Shadow is at 8 HP and the Druid has an ~8 damage attack in hand and at over 20 HP with temporary HP (plus even advantage on the attack roll). It also can't get to the roof with the animals in there. It simply has no chance and it knows it; if it had an attack with a range of over 60' that'd be different but it does not. I could roll it if you'd want me to. 24 on hit, 10 on damage; it would die the second it appears before even getting to attack. I think it would be much more valuable for it to report to the BBEG, give him all the information he got on the PC, etc. than to die pointlessly in a fight he knows he can't win. Lawful Evil doesn't equal to Lawful Stupid; Iron Shadow is actually quite intelligent and wise.


Thanks for the scrutiny. I think there's some arguable stuff but ultimately, the outcome would remain pretty much the same. The Diviner would die more or less regardless, the Abjurer would die a bit faster or slower depending on resources, the others would survive anyways. Diviner was really the only close call. He really would benefit of a lightsource but top floor only has the brasero, which is not realistic to pick up. He could go for the Lantern I suppose, but he'd need go shut it down with Pyrotechnics anyways.

[Dork_Forge]

That's not how sight works. You see light. If light is blocked, you see nothing. Not even the thing blocking the light.

Once again, this is not irl. Darkvision allows you to see in the dark you know... the absence of light?

- I'd say all real sand, especially beach/ocean sand, is "fine sand" as such (it's chemical composition is silicondioxide and it occurs specifically on shores and seabed, as sea wears down on the surface). I could imagine old stone stairs to have plenty of sand on them to just pick up as you walk past them; then again, they might not. That's why I rolled the percentile. But that doesn't really matter, it was a failure anyways.

I have no idea why you're talking about chemical composition, the only way I can reason that is we're using two different definitions of fine. I take the component to mean fine as in small individual pieces, like you'd have in an hourglass. My experience of beaches isn't that fine sand, though I'm sure that some beaches have it. In regards to it not being on the stairs it was more about the light house not being on a beach, or sand being given in any of the description of the area.

- Bat appearing is suspicious of course but you have two drunk Xvarts; I don't imagine they could link the bat appearing to the Wizard

They were meant to react to basically anything with suspicion, and the bat certainly would notice another bat just appearing.

- Good point on the Misty Step, I agree with your point here. Didn't really matter but it's good to keep in mind.

Thanks

Well, Owl's speed is 60' and it got an action; that's 120' of movement (dash) and 120' further of sight; that should be more than enough to ascertain the inclination of the land.

And the telepathic connection has a range of 100 ft., with 5-10ft. of that taken up by being separated by the lighthouse wall. So at best it can observe less than half of the teleportation distance. That doesn't change anything I said... the Wizard can still end up teleporting into a rock, tree, the ground, or up into the air and falling enough to take damage. Teleporting blindly into the distance is only a safe idea in a flat, featureless plain you know exists out there.

- That's reasonable. I see readying a spell more as holding until the trigger happens and then casting the spell.

Okay, but that's not what readying a spell is in 5e. PHB pg. 193 "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."

That's the entire reason why readying a spell requires concentration until it's released.

- Ward was activated; we assumed all resources available.

Okay, going with that, it still doesn't add up to 13...

- I find it REALLY hard to imagine the bottles are completely empty and it only takes "alcohol" to cast the spell.

If your interpretation is literally a drop will do, sure

- I went with what I found reasonable. FWIW I could've turned into Velociraptor/Giant Rat or whatever; it doesn't really matter since the Wildshape form doesn't do anything but drop the stuff. I just like Snakes so I went with a Snake form (plus it seems beyond obvious to me that if you go from a humanoid with big limbs to a snake whose limbs are miniscule, you'll easily fall out of manacles - you can't just look at size, you have to look at the shape of the creature too). Plus the RAW of the ability says "equipment falls off" if I so want so I think that's a pretty good case for it just working regardless of form; but I find it really hard to justify an argument that like a snake would somehow be caught in manacles. Like it doesn't even matter if a snake has Manacles on, it could trivially slither out of them. But if you'd like, pretend he turned into Velociraptor or Giant Rat or whatever instead. It changes absolutely nothing: the whole encounter plays out exactly the same.

You explicitly asked a question about Wild Shaping to get out of manacles, you received an answer. You then acted against that answer. I'm not really sure why you're making more of it than that.

- Mind Master wanted to get to the Druid and Invisibility lets him move without OAs. I took the optimal course of action here; he knows he needs to kill the Druid. Making a Rothé attack him...maybe? No Rothé was adjacent to him and there's no movement associated with the ability so I'm not sure if they'd be able to.

This ignores just making the Druid move, or even moving a rothe to get there with less/no OAs.

- Mind Master was 20' into the room on that turn to be able to hit any cover. He got knocked back 10' by Thunderwave. He only has 25' movement. He can't reach the Druid without Mind Mastery.

...So he should be using Mind Mastery? Were you running him like he had to stab the Druid or it wasn't worth it?

- You can't attack while occupying another creature's space. The Hobgoblins can't attack through the Xvart Speaker. That's the whole point of chokepoints in this edition and why the Rothés can't get **** done either.

Whilst I can understand why some people may run it that way, it isn't RAW and the only support is a JC tweet, which is unofficial and dubious. They've been asked this question multiple times over the years (as shown on Twitter), they could have answered it in the SAC and make it official, they didn't.

- Iron Shadow is at 8 HP and the Druid has an ~8 damage attack in hand and at over 20 HP with temporary HP (plus even advantage on the attack roll). It also can't get to the roof with the animals in there. It simply has no chance and it knows it; if it had an attack with a range of over 60' that'd be different but it does not. I could roll it if you'd want me to. 24 on hit, 10 on damage; it would die the second it appears before even getting to attack. I think it would be much more valuable for it to report to the BBEG, give him all the information he got on the PC, etc. than to die pointlessly in a fight he knows he can't win. Lawful Evil doesn't equal to Lawful Stupid; Iron Shadow is actually quite intelligent and wise.

You are inserting roleplay decisions? There was no direction that any monster would flee except the bats (maybe, not sure without looking back), and the Iron Shadow has no idea the HP/THP of the Druid or the damage of a Magic Stone I don't think the Druid actually used (which you also just assumed there would be loose pebbles inside a building...?). It seems like you had the Druid climb down the lighthouse, which would have taken an entire turn dashing. The Iron Shadow could have readied an attack for when the Druid was climbing down, and attacked with a full Multiattack when the Druid was on the ground. With True Strike, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image it even has options for setting up an ambush, and 5 attacks is certainly capable of downing the Druid, with the option of Shadow Jaunting back out of range at the end of them, the Iron Shadow has a significant mobility advantage over the Druid.

Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.

When you consider that the Scouts shouldn't have been mauled by Rothe's (unless the Rothe spent their turns squeezing upstairs), the fight should have really been harder on the Druid, with the Scouts bringing ranged attacks that could have easily downed them.

[Gignere]

Once again, this is not irl. Darkvision allows you to see in the dark you know... the absence of light?

I’m against this mainly because it isn’t showcasing the class abilities but relying on a racial and the ruling relies on an edge case that some DMs might go against. As you can see one of my feedback on the chronurgist escape scenario was that it basically didn’t rely on any subclass abilities so any wizard could have pull it off with just DDoor and Find Familiar.

In this case what is inherent in the psi warrior that allows escape? So if you rolled up a vhuman/halfling or any race without DV your whole scenario breaks down. Does it even showcase the subclass, is the subclass even optimal, I don’t know because it hinges on a racial feature.

Edit: especially when there are measures against a tattooed holy symbol why wouldn’t there be measures against darkvision? Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

[Unoriginal]

Concerning the blindfold:

I will rule that the blindfold does not inflict the Blinded condition, but that everything except the blindfold is treated as heavily obscured until it is removed. The blindfold is thick enough to prevent the PC to see through it but not enough that the PC can't see some of th lantern's light through it.

Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

Of course, the challenge has a PC with full ressource except HPs face an action-economy-overwhelming-but-spread-out amount of enemies with decent AC and non-negligible HPs, but with mostly low saves and susceptible to being fooled by illusions, enchantments or other distractions, in a restricted space that can easily be covered by AoEs, with little in the realm of special movement...

But the deck is stacked against spell casting because enemies are smart enough to think "yeah, maybe we shouldn't let have the prisoner have any equipment or religious symbol, since we live in a world where some people can use equipment or religious symbols to melt our faces off and we don't know this person's powers."

[Dork_Forge]

I’m against this mainly because it isn’t showcasing the class abilities but relying on a racial and the ruling relies on an edge case that some DMs might go against. As you can see one of my feedback on the chronurgist escape scenario was that it basically didn’t rely on any subclass abilities so any wizard could have pull it off with just DDoor and Find Familiar.

In this case what is inherent in the psi warrior that allows escape? So if you rolled up a vhuman/halfling or any race without DV your whole scenario breaks down. Does it even showcase the subclass, is the subclass even optimal, I don’t know because it hinges on a racial feature.

Edit: especially when there are measures against a tattooed holy symbol why wouldn’t there be measures against darkvision? Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

Measures against darkvision: The blindfold is a measure against that. The ability to remove the blindfold by being able to see it, but without V,S,M is incredibly niche. There is zero reason to think it's possible.

Class/subclass features my attempt used: Second Wind, Action Surge, Protective Field, Telekinetic Movement, Psi-Powered Leap. My attempt is very much uniquely a Psi Warrior Fighter in how it was done. But your problem is that I used Darkvision... to facilitate a subclass feature?

I didn't see you complain about Telekinetic being used in other attempts, which is just a feat anyone can take. Or Lucky, or Fey Touched. All of which were more impactful during their runs than just having darkvision, a feature that on it's own is not only common, but useless in the bound situation.

So why the problem with darkvision but not feats? Especially when those feats were taken as a V. Human/Custom Lineage?

[Eldariel]

Okay, going with that, it still doesn't add up to 13...

Should've been 17. I had the character at level 5. Didn't matter, the Mind Master dealt over the character's HP total in damage.

You explicitly asked a question about Wild Shaping to get out of manacles, you received an answer. You then acted against that answer. I'm not really sure why you're making more of it than that.

I disagreed with said ruling for mentioned reasons. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling.

This ignores just making the Druid move, or even moving a rothe to get there with less/no OAs.

...So he should be using Mind Mastery? Were you running him like he had to stab the Druid or it wasn't worth it?

He did use Mind Mastery to hit the Druid - Druid even failed the save. Silvery Barbs turned the attack into a miss. And yeah, I absolutely think it's not worth it for the Mind Master to start fighting with the Conjured Animals since he knows the cause and has very good tools to ignore them (Reduce lets him simply walk under them and his AC isn't really bothered by it), sneak up to the PC and most likely kill them (indeed, if he didn't fail his Stealth-roll, which he was favored to succeed on, he might've done just that - I think he's the most dangerous enemy here once he gets Reduce and Invisibility up; 19 AC, untargetable with targeted spells, massive damage, etc.).

Whilst I can understand why some people may run it that way, it isn't RAW and the only support is a JC tweet, which is unofficial and dubious. They've been asked this question multiple times over the years (as shown on Twitter), they could have answered it in the SAC and make it official, they didn't.

RAW doesn't clarify this topic. Therefore it's unofficial tweet vs. nothing.

You are inserting roleplay decisions? There was no direction that any monster would flee except the bats (maybe, not sure without looking back), and the Iron Shadow has no idea the HP/THP of the Druid or the damage of a Magic Stone I don't think the Druid actually used (which you also just assumed there would be loose pebbles inside a building...?). It seems like you had the Druid climb down the lighthouse, which would have taken an entire turn dashing. The Iron Shadow could have readied an attack for when the Druid was climbing down, and attacked with a full Multiattack when the Druid was on the ground. With True Strike, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image it even has options for setting up an ambush, and 5 attacks is certainly capable of downing the Druid, with the option of Shadow Jaunting back out of range at the end of them, the Iron Shadow has a significant mobility advantage over the Druid.

Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.

I just fastforwarded the end since it was obviously over. The Druid just readies an action every round; he could also just Misty Step at the Iron Shadow and kill him. The Iron Shadow could try to ambush for all it matters, the readied action would kill him the second he revealed himself.

Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.
When you consider that the Scouts shouldn't have been mauled by Rothe's (unless the Rothe spent their turns squeezing upstairs), the fight should have really been harder on the Druid, with the Scouts bringing ranged attacks that could have easily downed them.

I said that if I can't summon both downstairs and upstairs I'd just summon upstairs and in the middle floor sending the ones from the middle floor to the lower floor. Roof was the more reasonable escape anyways. So this wouldn't change anything.

[Unoriginal]

I disagreed with said answer for mentioned reasons.

Uhm... should I point out?:

If DM just gives you a scenario and tells you "Do X", magic will be able to do a lot of things where you would have no options if you didn't have magic. If you want non-casters to succeed, you'll have to specifically design solutions for them. For casters, you can just present problems and let them solve it. That's a fundamental difference in power right there: catered vs generic challenges.

[Eldariel]

Uhm... should I point out?:

What does a ruling have to do with catering or not catering? Not that it matters, I just find the ruling that you couldn't slip out with anything but smaller form illogical. But like I said, you can substitute another form and it changes literally nothing so it shouldn't be a hill worth dying on. Far as I'm concerned, it's a trivial matter in the scope of all this.

EDIT: For reference:

Spoiler: Snake legs

Show

I would argue those could fit to retract out of manacles made for a medium creature. In general, I don't think you can make a general size-based ruing for this but instead you'll have to rule it on an individual creature basis depending on the body type and proportions of the source and target creature.

[Waazraath]

Because all of these conversations occur under a massive caster supremacy bias.

Just dropping by to give a +1 to this and compliment Dr.Samurai and DorkForge on their patience. Skipped this thread for a while, sorry to see it devolved past days in the same boring 'casters are uber' litany of tediousnes.

[Unoriginal]

What does a ruling have to do with catering or not catering?

You claimed that a DM could just present a situation and a goal and have the caster do it, while the DM needed to design solutions for martials to succeed.

Yet here you as the DM had to design a solution for the caster.

But like I said, you can substitute another form and it changes literally nothing so it shouldn't be a hill worth dying on. Far as I'm concerned, it's a trivial matter in the scope of all this.

Well, you mentioned you could have gone for Giant Rat (AC 12 HPs 7) or Velociraptor (AC 13 HPs 10), which are easier to hit and to KO than the Giant Poisonous Snake (if only slightly for the raptor), so it can very much have an impact.

Not to mention, size itself can be a factor. Re-reading the Shepherd Druid attempt, I see you had both the Xvarts try to sling the Giant Snake, which leaves them far away for when the Druid repositions the next turn, while the NPC Behavior section indicates: " If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings)."

[Eldariel]

You claimed that a DM could just present a situation and a goal and have the caster do it, while the DM needed to design solutions for martials to succeed.

Yet here you as the DM had to design a solution for the caster.

I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.

Not to mention, size itself can be a factor. Re-reading the Shepherd Druid attempt, I see you had both the Xvarts try to sling the Giant Snake, which leaves them far away for when the Druid repositions the next turn, while the NPC Behavior section indicates: " If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings)."

Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

[Unoriginal]

I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.



Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

Xvarts have advantage when trying to shove when an ally is near, which is why I included them using that tactic.

Having to get up and avoid two OAs make a significant difference.

[Eldariel]

Xvarts have advantage when trying to shove when an ally is near, which is why I included them using that tactic.

Having to get up and avoid two OAs make a significant difference.

They have disadvantage from poisoned and advantage from ally and a total of -1 Str with no proficiency: those cancel out and they simply roll at 1d20-1. But the first one to move will have to either ready the action or not have advantage since their ally has yet to move. It's an ability check. And getting up almost does nothing. It just costs half your movement, but it's not like you need much of it on that turn anyways. OAs...well, they'll do that when you're standing and to your full HP animal form so it's just the same as them attacking on your turn.

The highest value they can get is by attacking on their turn and hoping to get OAs or do some damage - but that seems less reasonable than just slinging it out from apparent safety while calling for help when melee is obviously extremely risky. Shoving is a fine option for when you have allies that can benefit of the advantage nearby (the Mind Master would love it as would the Hobgoblins) but that's true only when the alarm is sounded and the others have moved up. R1 shove seems strictly worse than R1 attacks.

FWIW I rolled OAs for them assuming they went for clubbing. And assuming the Shepherd had turned into Velociraptor instead. The rolls were 16/1 (+4) and 19/13 (+4) for 8 (1d6+2) damage, which ultimately didn't make a difference: the Velociraptor's HP is lost anyways when shifting back to humanoid form so it's essentially a free buffer. Therefore, in this run no matter their behaviour, it wouldn't have changed a thing.

EDIT: Did the math, they're 13,6% to land two+ hits on the Velociraptor on 4 attacks at disadvantage (assuming you give them the OAs). If they roll two hits, they're 58,3% to roll 11+ damage (10 would actually be ideal since that would spare the bonus action to shift back allowing Totem already on this round but that's of course risky) meaning the total probability of dying to those 4 attacks is 7,9%. Meaning it's possible but it's under 1 in 10 runs, which I think is an acceptable risk in an otherwise extremely brutal and dangerous run. In any other case their actions have no impact on you due to the disposable Wild Shape HP. If they instead Shove, they have under 1% chance of having an impact on the game.

[Dork_Forge]

I disagreed with said ruling for mentioned reasons. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling.

Which defeats the point of participating in a challenge where someone else sets the parameters and makes rulings, you just pick and choose which you want to follow.

He did use Mind Mastery to hit the Druid - Druid even failed the save. Silvery Barbs turned the attack into a miss. And yeah, I absolutely think it's not worth it for the Mind Master to start fighting with the Conjured Animals since he knows the cause and has very good tools to ignore them (Reduce lets him simply walk under them and his AC isn't really bothered by it), sneak up to the PC and most likely kill them (indeed, if he didn't fail his Stealth-roll, which he was favored to succeed on, he might've done just that - I think he's the most dangerous enemy here once he gets Reduce and Invisibility up; 19 AC, untargetable with targeted spells, massive damage, etc.).

So, you don't think it's worth it for the Mind Master to get into it with animals and spend two turns doing buffs because of that.

...But the Iron Shadow spends two turns fighting animals on the roof?

RAW doesn't clarify this topic. Therefore it's unofficial tweet vs. nothing.

So table difference.

I just fastforwarded the end since it was obviously over. The Druid just readies an action every round; he could also just Misty Step at the Iron Shadow and kill him. The Iron Shadow could try to ambush for all it matters, the readied action would kill him the second he revealed himself.

You're just... assuming that the Druid automatically hits then, and the Druid can't really ready an action to throw a stone whilst climbing down the tower... And this entire 'ready to throw' thing is only a factor because the Iron Shadow fled to begin with. Oh, and you still didn't address just handwaving that there are loose pebbles for the spell inside a building.

I said that if I can't summon both downstairs and upstairs I'd just summon upstairs and in the middle floor sending the ones from the middle floor to the lower floor. Roof was the more reasonable escape anyways. So this wouldn't change anything.

But you didn't address that you can't reasonably summon more than one animal on a separate floor (there's just no way you have the line of sight for that), or the ramifications of having to flood the second floor and move them. Like not having the speed to get where they want and attack. Opportunity Attacks from having to put some near Xvarts etc.

I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.

You didn't know the rolls when you consciously made the choice to ignore the ruling of the challenge setter to choose a more durable form.

Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

Proning means potentially not being able to get to your ideal summoning spot.

You're also acting like it's the same thing to shove as attack... it isn't, it's a contested roll so the Druid has the potential of fumbling.

You also keep trying to argue it makes more sense for them to stay at range... but that just gives the known dangerous creature space to do whatever they want, whilst expressly going against how the challenge dictates they should act.

---

An aside inspired by the protesting of Darkvision, I'd be curious to see casters attempt this that don't leverage Lucky or Silvery Barbs. Since the first has literally nothing to do with being a caster (I literally used it on the Fighter) and the latter is a clearly OP spell from a setting book. It'd be interesting to see, since your strategy seems to be to leverage these tools as defenses.

[Witty Username]

You can pick the build, but you go with the DM you have, not the one you wish you had or expect to have in the future.

[Eldariel]

Which defeats the point of participating in a challenge where someone else sets the parameters and makes rulings, you just pick and choose which you want to follow.

How terrible. Can we at least agree that it had no impact on the outcome?

So, you don't think it's worth it for the Mind Master to get into it with animals and spend two turns doing buffs because of that.

...But the Iron Shadow spends two turns fighting animals on the roof?

One can walk through enemy squares, doesn't provoke OAs, has very high AC to avoid animal attacks, and can sneak up on the PC. Meanwhile, Iron Shadow is actively ****ed indoors due to the lightning conditions preventing the use of Shadow Jaunt and indeed, they can't even get through the Rothés since you can't walk through enemy squares normally. Iron Shadow is forced to fight with how tight the squares are.

You're just... assuming that the Druid automatically hits then, and the Druid can't really ready an action to throw a stone whilst climbing down the tower... And this entire 'ready to throw' thing is only a factor because the Iron Shadow fled to begin with. Oh, and you still didn't address just handwaving that there are loose pebbles for the spell inside a building.

There are literally Xvarts with slings in the same floor you start. I'm pretty sure you can get some sling bullets to use Magic Stone on. And I fastforwarded it because I ran out of time. Basically though, I made the roll for the Druid and if he ever got to attack, the Iron Shadow is dead so I just didn't have him do something retarded.

But you didn't address that you can't reasonably summon more than one animal on a separate floor (there's just no way you have the line of sight for that), or the ramifications of having to flood the second floor and move them. Like not having the speed to get where they want and attack. Opportunity Attacks from having to put some near Xvarts etc.

*shrug* Maybe. It depends on the size of the entrance, your range of vision from there and so on. I don't really find it convincing.

You didn't know the rolls when you consciously made the choice to ignore the ruling of the challenge setter to choose a more durable form.

True. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling and closer to RAW over what I felt was an unreasonable one and not linked to RAW.

An aside inspired by the protesting of Darkvision, I'd be curious to see casters attempt this that don't leverage Lucky or Silvery Barbs. Since the first has literally nothing to do with being a caster (I literally used it on the Fighter) and the latter is a clearly OP spell from a setting book. It'd be interesting to see, since your strategy seems to be to leverage these tools as defenses.

Moon Druid run might just do that when I get around to it.


If I were to design some Wizard that could be good here, Bladesinger seems like it could potentially be very strong. Though you'd most likely still want Lucky as a cushion against natural 20s and the like as always when you go for high AC. It's just a very strong defense feat. But if you got up to like 25 AC (16 Dex, 18 Int, Mage Armor and Shield + Bladesong would do it and that only really takes 1 round to set up if you first manage to kill the Xvarts) you'd be pretty well off. Especially if you also got to cast False Life. You'd even have a good excuse to Shadow Blade it up thereafter (that's a lot of stuff to cast to be fair; it's gonna be rough to get that many turns without taking an unacceptable amount of attacks). Though I guess you can't easily take Lucky if you go for 18 Int since you need a half-feat and +4 in two stats total. CLineage or Vuman with a +2 would work.

[Dr.Samurai]

For what it's worth, I don't think you applied disadvantage to the Xvart's initiative from the poisoned condition?

D'oh!

Good call. That would more than likely have resulted in the fighter going first. The only thing this would change is that Xvart 2 might have missed on that first attack since the fighter would be standing and no longer blinded, and the Poisoned condition would apply Disadvantage.

However, the fighter would still die when he died because the Mind Master hits for 15 damage, which is exactly how much HP the fighter had after Second Wind. So even if no one hit the fighter for the first three rounds, the Mind Master takes him out with one hit.

The Mind Master is just a doozy.

What made you go with the Fighter build that you chose?

Simplicity. There's very few options to take. It's a very vanilla build. I also think it shows how much the dice play into it. You can see at one point the hobgoblin on the stair would have ended the fight if his single attack hit, but he instead missed. It's interesting to see that even when you're at your lowest efficiency, the dice still have a say. If the fighter could have taken down that hob and the hob below (both a possibility with a single attack on each), then he has some room to fight the Mind Master. Switch out to a longsword, Grab+Prone would give the Mind Master DA to attack you, but you still have to roll against that move ability.

Odds are against you, but still anything is possible.

Just dropping by to give a +1 to this and compliment Dr.Samurai and DorkForge on their patience. Skipped this thread for a while, sorry to see it devolved past days in the same boring 'casters are uber' litany of tediousnes.

I'll take it .

I do think a lot of this just comes down to how different people will adjudicate events. As an example, I tend to agree with Eldariel that attacking is probably better for the xvart's than Shoving. However, they have that feature for a reason, and it makes sense that their instinct would be to knock you down. Maybe mathematically it doesn't make sense, but then maybe that makes sense too because they're drunk. I can only just shrug and feel that either decision can make sense, but go with what the DM stated.

That's why I push that a lot of this is how the game is run. My plan was to shove the hobgoblin at the top of the stairs down, and he'd hit the Speaker and the other hob and they'd fall prone and maybe take some damage. But... is that how any DM would adjudicate that? I don't know. Would the Mind Master use Reduce and Hide or simply attack with the dagger? I don't know, that's a DM call. In this case, a medium fighter can move at full speed while grabbing a tiny foe. So Fighter could grab the reduced Mind Master, dash up the stairs, and let him go over the edge of the roof. Are all DMs going to adjudicate that the same way? Once the fighter has killed two xvarts and a hobgoblin, as mine had, but is still on the second floor, does the Iron Shadow stay put, or does he enter the tower? Unoriginal said the Iron Shadow trusts his allies, but with three of them dead, it seems they're not doing so well. In my notes, I had the Mind Master and the Hobgoblin 2 call for back up (scouts and Iron Shadow respectively). Initiative was on my side, but I would think that makes sense given that the fighter has downed four opponents (2 xvarts, speaker, hob).

All of these encounters hinge on these types of decisions. Some will be clearer than others, as in my complaints about the youtube video. But others, like in Unoriginal's, I think there is room for different takes, and we have to accept the judgements.


Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.

[Unoriginal]

Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.

Beast Barbarian would be pretty damn great for that challenge. I hadn't thought of Dwarven Fortitude, but that would work well with the Beast features.

[Willowhelm]

I've got to admit. I don't see what the purpose of the tower test is. It seems to wildly favour casters (even with all the restrictions) and be near impossible for martials?

I may have totally missed some aspect but:

Warlock
Pact of the chain.
Any race.
Any stats.
Any spells but include Dimension Door
Any invocations but include Voice of the Chain Master

Spoiler: Plan(s)

Show

Plans in no particular order. Chose whichever feels right for you.
Plan A:

• Use invisible imp familiar to scout max DD distance teleportation spot.
• Use familiar to look around the tower from a safe distance (120ft dark vision) and general scout your situation.
• Familiar has a readied action to remove your gag when summoned
• Dismiss them, summon them in gag-removal range.
• Familiar removes gag.
• DD out to pre-scouted safe place.

Plan B:

• Tell your entire party the situation and just wait for backup.

Plan C:

• Use ludic's ever living generalist build. Wreck shop.
• Give yourself 48hp before starting anything
• Have the familiar bring in any equipment/components you need. Restrictions on weight obviously.
• Have the familiar free a hand instead of gag for their readied action.
• Do whatever you like, with the DD as the escape-in-emergency option.

I've had a couple of threads in the past for builds where you have no equipment or seem utterly "normal". They're full of ideas for how to be, essentially, fully capable in an all-your-stuff-is-gone prison situation.

To make this less "cheeseable" you really need to railroad the PC into having to fight their way out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dork_Forge]

I've got to admit. I don't see what the purpose of the tower test is. It seems to wildly favour casters (even with all the restrictions) and be near impossible for martials?

I may have totally missed some aspect but:

Warlock
Pact of the chain.
Any race.
Any stats.
Any spells but include Dimension Door
Any invocations but include Voice of the Chain Master

Spoiler: Plan(s)

Show

Plans in no particular order. Chose whichever feels right for you.
Plan A:

• Use invisible imp familiar to scout max DD distance teleportation spot.
• Use familiar to look around the tower from a safe distance (120ft dark vision) and general scout your situation.
• Familiar has a readied action to remove your gag when summoned
• Dismiss them, summon them in gag-removal range.
• Familiar removes gag.
• DD out to pre-scouted safe place.

Plan B:

• Tell your entire party the situation and just wait for backup.

Plan C:

• Use ludic's ever living generalist build. Wreck shop.
• Give yourself 48hp before starting anything
• Have the familiar bring in any equipment/components you need. Restrictions on weight obviously.
• Have the familiar free a hand instead of gag for their readied action.
• Do whatever you like, with the DD as the escape-in-emergency option.

I've had a couple of threads in the past for builds where you have no equipment or seem utterly "normal". They're full of ideas for how to be, essentially, fully capable in an all-your-stuff-is-gone prison situation.

To make this less "cheeseable" you really need to railroad the PC into having to fight their way out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think it favours casters overall, mainly because how harsh it can be without any materials/foci/holy symbols, Dimension Door is the real standout and without what you describein plan A, it can easily lead to accidental, 4th level suicide.

On your plans:

Plan A runs into the issue of knowing that you're in a tower by an exterior wall with no character knowledge to support that.

Plan B runs into the 60 minute timelimit

Plan C hinges on Healing Light having no visible aspect to it, which it doesn't say... but it's called Healing Light

[Willowhelm]

I don't think it favours casters overall, mainly because how harsh it can be without any materials/foci/holy symbols, Dimension Door is the real standout and without what you describein plan A, it can easily lead to accidental, 4th level suicide.

On your plans:

Plan A runs into the issue of knowing that you're in a tower by an exterior wall with no character knowledge to support that.

Plan B runs into the 60 minute timelimit

Plan C hinges on Healing Light having no visible aspect to it, which it doesn't say... but it's called Healing Light

Uh. Plan A has an unlimited range communication with your familiar via voice of the chain so you absolutely can discover that? I wasn’t summoning them outside the tower. I was assuming they were alive (because they are) somewhere ”nearby” (within a few thousand feet) out there and I can communicate with them…

It doesn’t require you to be near an exterior wall. I didn’t even think you were, quite the opposite… I thought we were on an open platform exposed to the elements. Shows how good my reading skills are.

Plan B Didn’t know there was a 60 min time limit but sure, if the rest of the party can’t get to you in 60 mins I guess it doesn’t work.

Plan C doesn’t hinge on that. It’s just an option to gets things started with a nice buffer instead of 12 hp per round as a bonus action.

I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

[diplomancer]

I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Just one point I don't get: how does the Chronurgy Wizard know they can summon their Familiar outside of the building, before they know they're in a building (as opposed to a room underground, underwater or the like)?

Oh, I missed this: he would summon it in the room behind him the game anyways since his plan is to escape and there's a higher chance of escaping. If there's nothing there, it's of course unlucky. I dunno how that would work anyways. Maybe do nothing or maybe kill the familiar?

[Willowhelm]

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

Can you link the the post? It’s a long thread and I must’ve missed it.

[animorte]

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

And I was hoping to see more of that style! Creative non-casters doing some work!

Maybe an example from each class would be pretty cool. Of course that's a request for additional work that I, myself, don't even have much time to contribute.

[diplomancer]

Yeah agree with this, the reflection would be a Battle Master dumping Second Wind, Action Surge, and every Superiority Die every encounter, unrealistic and outcome warping.

---

Challenge Results!

Spoiler: Martial Used

Show

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter (7)
Subclass: Psi Warrior
ASIs: Dex +2 and Lucky
Skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Athletics

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

Unarmored AC: 14

Spoiler: Breakdown of challenge

Show

First I used Telekinetic Movement to slide the blindfold up and Second Wind (roll 7, new current 15 HP). As neither of these things are really obvious, I didn't trigger initiative at this point.

Initiative was rolled now, as it would be the first escape attempt:

Tabaxi: 23
Bat: 14
Drunk Xvarts: 11

Round 1:

Tabaxi: Attempt to escape 1 was a 16, Lucky rerolled into a 5, complete failure
Bat: moves to harass and tell Xvarts about my shenanigans
Xvarts: make action-free Perception to notice if I made any progress. One gets a 3 the other gets a 17 against all odds, spends his turn putting the blindfold back on then returning to his place

Round 2:

Tabaxi: Attempt 2 is a 22 Success! Now free object interaction to remove blindfold, Action Surge to Dash and Feline Agility to double speed. I rounded up to 40 ft. to be conservative. Bonus action Psi Powered Leap and fly remaining 80 ft. off the roof (landing on floor).

Scouts and Duergar enter initiative at 5 and 9 respectively.

Xvarts: Follow to roof and fire with slings (17 and 11) one hits for 3 damage.
Mind Master: lacking a ranged attack, they start descending the lighthouse to raise the alarm.
Scout: the MM doesn't have darkvision and the Tabaxi is far enough away from the lighthouse that it wouldn't help and no light was described away from the building, so each makes two attacks with disadvantage. (18, 11, 7, 7) one hit for 10 damage!

Tabaxi uses reaction Protective Field, reducing it by 10 and negating all damage.

Tabaxi: Action Dash Bonus Action Psi Powered Leap, flies another 120ft. into the darkness

I called it a success here, as there is no realistic chance of pursuit, only the scouts have the range to attack, but at disadvantage and against Protective field with 12HP left.

A clunky start, but a quick success!

This could have been harder if the Duergar got an attack of opportunity, but TBH a single attack with the option of reduction isn't going to change the outcome.

Spoiler: Thoughts on some other options

Show

You could do this with a Shadow Monk with Telekinetic. Invisible Mage Hand lower the blindfold, Shadow Step out of the restraints to the staircase, run and jump off the lighthouse (slow falling for no damage) and just running away. A dragon monk could have AOE'd the guards whilst still bound and flown away etc.

A soulknife would have been easy to get out of the restraints and strong to fight, but has no clean way of healing themselves up and having an unarmored AC.

I'm curious how a caster would do in this situation, I'm guessing not well overall, but we'll see.

Can you link the the post? It’s a long thread and I must’ve missed it.

There you go.

[Dork_Forge]

Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.

Beast Barbarian would be pretty damn great for that challenge. I hadn't thought of Dwarven Fortitude, but that would work well with the Beast features.

Dwarven Fortitude on a Barbarian is a great shout, considering the implications now...

Uh. Plan A has an unlimited range communication with your familiar via voice of the chain so you absolutely can discover that? I wasn’t summoning them outside the tower. I was assuming they were alive (because they are) somewhere ”nearby” (within a few thousand feet) out there and I can communicate with them…

It doesn’t require you to be near an exterior wall. I didn’t even think you were, quite the opposite… I thought we were on an open platform exposed to the elements. Shows how good my reading skills are.

Plan B Didn’t know there was a 60 min time limit but sure, if the rest of the party can’t get to you in 60 mins I guess it doesn’t work.

Plan C doesn’t hinge on that. It’s just an option to gets things started with a nice buffer instead of 12 hp per round as a bonus action.

Overall I'm not sure you're aware of enough of the contraints, for example Plan A runs afoul of a living familiar being with the party far away from you. Here's the full challenge for reference:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=138

I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

As Diplomancer mentioned and then quoted, I was the first to tackle (and succeed) the challenge, and I used a full martial build for it. I also included some initial thoughts on doing the same thing with other martials.

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

There you go.

Thanks for the mention and quote!

And I was hoping to see more of that style! Creative non-casters doing some work!

Maybe an example from each class would be pretty cool. Of course that's a request for additional work that I, myself, don't even have much time to contribute.

I wouldn't really want to do the fullcaster ones, but doing the martial ones sound like fun, I'll probably run through at least one or two more of them.

[Chaos Jackal]

As Diplomancer mentioned and then quoted, I was the first to tackle (and succeed) the challenge, and I used a full martial build for it. I also included some initial thoughts on doing the same thing with other martials.

Could've missed it, but I think you still haven't addressed the fact that the Iron Shadow can get you, which is incidentally a much bigger issue than the nitpicking and grasping at straws you've been doing for Eldariel's runs.