Apple Corer Optimization Challenge I

[Inevitability]

Welcome to an all-new, all-different, all-exciting build competition! In a similar vein to Iron Chef, the playground's finest builders will compete to create a build that showcases the secret ingredient (SI). However, there's one small twist...

As the name suggests, the distinguishing feature of the Apple Corer Optimization Challenge is that most core material is removed!

What does 'removed' mean exactly? Let me explain:

Spoiler: Rules for core material

Show

General rules:
-The base classes, PrCs, feats, spells, races, cleric domains, templates, weapons, and armor that saw their first 3.5 printing in the PHB, DMG, or Monster Manual may not be selected during the building process.

-If any such removed material would be a prerequisite, this prerequisite is dropped. Thus, a class like Dervish now only requires +5 BAB, 3 ranks in dodge, and 3 ranks in tumble: the four feats are all from the PHB, so they're deleted. Entering Master Transmogrifist only requires a nonlawful alignment, 2 ranks in Bluff and 5 in Disguise: both the feat and spell requirement are dropped. The Cavalry Charger feat now only requires +6 BAB, and the Necropotent feat now only requires proficiency with the selected weapon.

-If any such removed material would be granted as a non-selectable bonus feat, bonus spell, template, or other, it is not granted. Nothing is gained in its place.

-Indirect use of this material is fine. If you somehow get a riding dog animal companion, it doesn't lose its Alertness or Track feats. You may shapeshift or polymorph into a human. You can summon creatures with core weapons without invalidating your build: they simply cannot hand those weapons to you. The broader world still has clerics, wizards, fighters etc: it's just your character that can't be of those classes. As a rule of thumb, if it's selected during character creation, it's not indirect.

-Requirements with an 'or' clause partially consisting of deleted requirements are modified to demand one of the non-core components. For example, the PHB2 feat Elven Spell Lore mandates either 17 intelligence or the elf race: now it always requires 17 intelligence.
-Requirements with an 'or' clause wholly consisting of deleted requirements, like Scion of Dantalion's racial requirements, are waived completely.

-If a requirement demands X feats/spells/etc from a mixed core/noncore list, and this requirement cannot be fulfilled without including at least one non-core element, X is lowered until the requirement can be fulfilled.
(for example, imagine a feat that requires two feats out of Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Move Silently), Stealthy, and Darkstalker; this requirement would be modified to merely demand Darkstalker)

-If a requirement has become inaccessible because all classes that granted it were core-only, nothing is done to make it accessible again. That said, almost any PHB class feature is attainable through other classes as well, so I'd be surprised if this invalidated many non-core classes or feats.

Classes:
-Classes that mechanically refer to a core class (that is, whose list of HD, skills, saves, and class features you could not reconstruct without opening up the PHB) are not legal choices, even if they were printed outside of core. This rule covers things like Battle Sorcerer or Paladin of Slaughter, but not Psychic Rogue or Urban Druid, because the latter two were printed in full and are standalone classes, rather than variants. Class features themselves are allowed to refer to core classes (like the hexblade's familiar feature).

Feats:
-A requirement of a non-core feat applied to a core weapon (like Weapon Supremacy (Greatsword), for example) is modified to only refer to the feat (in this case, Weapon Supremacy with the weapon unspecified).

-Although Weapon Proficiency and Armor Proficiency feats cannot be selected, this only affects classes that grant their proficiencies explicitly as feats, such as Ruathar. A knight is still proficient with all armor and martial weapons, because class-based proficiencies do not work on the basis of granting feats.

-Initiate feats and other such feats that mandate X levels in a core class drop this requirement fully. In the case of initiate feats, it doesn't matter that their requirement could technically be met out-of-core using classes like favored soul.

Spells:
-SLAs, Supernatural Abilities, and Extraordinary abilities that duplicate core spells still work normally.

-Classes that share a spell list with a core class still have access to any non-core spell on that list.

-Unlike classes and races, a non-core spell is allowed to refer to a core spell for its effect. Things like Greater Mirror Image or Psionic Teleport are legal to select on eligible characters.

Races and templates:
-Races that mechanically refer to a core race (that is, whose racial features could not be reconstructed without opening up the PHB or MM) are not legal choices, even if they were printed outside of core. This rule covers things like silverbrow humans and water orcs. Merely sharing a racial subtype with a core race, as illumians and whisper gnomes do, does not disqualify a race: anything that has its full racial traits printed outside of core is fine.

-Some racial subtypes originally appeared in core to represent one race (or a small number of mechanically similar races). Even though these subtypes later became obtainable in non-core sources, they are still removed as prerequisites. Subtypes covered by this rule are human, dwarf, elf, halfling, gnoll, gnome, and orc.

-The above rule similarly covers sub-races of the above that originated in core material, like 'drow' or 'duergar', and the two PHB races with a distinct mechanical identity but no unique subtype (half-elf and half-orc).

-The above rule does not cover anything else. Requirements like 'kuo-toa', 'beholder', or 'mind flayer' are not automatically removed. The same goes for subtypes that represent a wide variety of creatures, like 'reptillian' or 'goblinoid'. It never removes prerequisites that mandate some creature type, template, elemental or alignment subtype, and it never removes further modifiers to race (that is, a prerequisite like "female dwarf" simply becomes "female").

Weapons and armor:
-Although all the usual rules about item reliance still apply, it might be wise to inform judges of the weapons and armor you intend to be using, if any. Weapons and armor from non-core sources remain legal and obtainable, and should present a diverse array of options for the builders to make use of.

For the first challenge, builders will be optimizing around CHAMPION OF CORELLON LARETHIAN, from Races of the Wild! This class is massively altered by our removal of core requirements, now mandating only +7 BAB, a nonevil alignment, 4 ranks in diplomacy, 2 ranks in knowledge (religion), and of course the worship of Corellon himself. It grants four bonus feats that must now be drawn from a much smaller list, and offers several unique class features, not to mention some class skills rarely found on melee PrCs! With the burden of its many entry feats gone, can the builders whip up anything interesting?

Challengers will have a month to build. 32 pt. buy is assumed as the default, all official non-core WotC material is allowed, using approximately the same standards for 'official' that other build competitions have (Web content is fine, Dragon Compendium is fine, Oriental Adventures is fine, DCS is fine, but Dragon Magazine, 3rd party Rokugan, and other Dragonlance books are not).

Legal UA material includes spelltouched feats and racial paragon classes.
Gray UA material includes flaws and traits, which both may be used by builders and may be penalized by judges (a -1 elegance penalty per flaw is traditional).
Banned UA material includes the generic classes, spontaneous divine casters, bloodlines, LA buyoff, gestalt, alternative casting systems, item familiars, alternative skill systems, weapon group feats, and backgrounds.

As always, feats and class features that grant Leadership or a Leadership-like ability (including Draconic Cohort) are to be ignored and may not be traded away.

Builds will be judged by volunteer judges across four metrics, with each category earning a score between 1 and 5 (except elegance, see below):
Originality: is this build doing anything mechanically unexpected? Is it using novel tricks, or putting uncommon classes to good use? Is its general concept worth rewarding?
Power: Keeping the lowered power level in mind, is the build pulling its weight? Does it have easily fixed flaws?
Elegance: Is the build mechanically legal? Does it rely on ambiguous wording, uncommon variant rules, or DM fiat? Is it well put-together? Is it reliant on specific magic items or spellcasting services? A build that is unsalvagably illegal on the mechanical level may earn a score of 0 here.
UoSI: Is the build making good use of the secret ingredient? Is it putting the SI to any particularly creative uses? Is it using the SI to obtain some benefit, or because the competition mandates it? Is the SI making any innovative use of the competition's rules around core material, such as by avoiding useless prerequisites or finding elegant alternatives for missing core classes?

Builds will be posted anonymously with builders revealed after all judges have submitted scores.

Please don't speculate on possible builds until they have been posted.

The recommended style for submissions includes a build stub (like "NE Strongheart Halfling Rogue 1/Fighter 2/Rogue +2/Assassin 10/Invisible Blade 5"), a 20-level build table, a list of ability scores, and a summary of your character's tactics and capabilities for levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 at least, plus a list of sources. The following tables are encouraged.

Spoiler: Build Progression

Show

NAME OF ENTRY

Level	Class	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Skills	Feats	Class Features
1st	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
2nd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
3rd	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
4th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
5th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
6th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
7th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
8th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
9th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
10th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
11th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
12th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
13th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
14th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
15th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
16th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
17th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
18th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
19th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities
20th	New Class Level	+x	+x	+x	+x	Skills	Feats	New Class Abilities

Code immediately below (spoiler).

Spoiler

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[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

Spoiler: Spellcasting

Show

Spells per Day/Spells Known

Level	0lvl	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
1st	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2nd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3rd	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
7th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
8th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
9th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
10th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
11th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
13th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
15th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
17th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
19th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
20th	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-

Code immediately below (spoiler)

Spoiler

Show

[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

The submission deadline is 8:00 AM, GMT+0 March 12 2023. Please submit your builds by PM to the chair (me) before that time.

Any questions will be answered in the next post.

[Inevitability]

Q: What about the SI's bonus feats?
A: Bonus feats must be non-core and must be a feat that would normally have Mounted Combat, Combat Expertise, or Dodge as a prerequisite. Cavalry Charger is fine, Skill Focus is not.

Q: Are weapons of legacy based on core weapons allowed?
A: No.

[loky1109]

What about SI's bonus feat?

At 1st level and every three levels thereafter, you gain a bonus feat. This must be a feat noted as a bonus fighter feat, and the feat must have Combat Expertise, Dodge, or Mounted Combat as a prerequisite.

[Inevitability]

What about SI's bonus feat?

They don't turn into fully general bonus feats: you get to pick from the list that you'd normally pick from, excluding core sources as per usual.

Your eligible bonus feats must still be marked as 'fighter bonus feats' and they must still be one of the feats that would normally have Mounted Combat / Dodge / Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.

[Evoker]

Could we use a weapon type from a core source if it was a specific magic weapon printed in a non-core source? Eg: The Simple Bow from Weapons of legacy is a Longbow. Is it allowed, since it's a non-core magic item, or disallowed, because it's a longbow?

[Inevitability]

Could we use a weapon type from a core source if it was a specific magic weapon printed in a non-core source? Eg: The Simple Bow from Weapons of legacy is a Longbow. Is it allowed, since it's a non-core magic item, or disallowed, because it's a longbow?

Disallowed. When in doubt, use the rule of thumb: "Do I need to open the PHB to figure out what this does exactly?".

[loky1109]

I think I have an idea.

[Alea]

Are there any elf races that qualify here? I know we can ignore the requirement on champion, but I’m interested in an option that does different things for different races, and I want the elf one.

[pabelfly]

The more I look at Champion of Corellon Larethian, the worse it gets.

I'm still committed to finding a build with this though.

[Inevitability]

Are there any elf races that qualify here? I know we can ignore the requirement on champion, but I’m interested in an option that does different things for different races, and I want the elf one.

Without spoiling which ones: yes, there's races with the (elf) subtype that don't refer back to the PHB elf traits.

[pabelfly]

I have come up with an abomination of a character concept. I am near-compelled to develop it and see where it goes.

[loky1109]

I have one thought came to me.
Idea is about specific challenge environment. I think it should somehow be reflected in judging criteria. Like for Monster Mash. Why is entry here? Why can't it be regular IC entry?

[Inevitability]

I have one thought came to me.
Idea is about specific challenge environment. I think it should somehow be reflected in judging criteria. Like for Monster Mash. Why is entry here? Why can't it be regular IC entry?

I will at the very least note that in UotSI.

[loky1109]

Question.
Could we use abilities that work with or against some core stuff? For example, let's say, favorite enemy (dwarfs).

[Inevitability]

Question.
Could we use abilities that work with or against some core stuff? For example, let's say, favorite enemy (dwarfs).

That's fine! As stated, dwarves still exist, favored enemy is still obtainable, and you're not selecting dwarf as your race.

[loky1109]

Inevitability your inbox is full.

[Inevitability]

Inevitability your inbox is full.

And now it shouldn't be anymore!

[Khatoblepas]

This is very interesting! I got a couple of general questions:

1) If an ability that shares a name with a core ability (such as Multiattack in Masters of the Wild) showed up in a non-core source but was updated for 3.5 core, can you still use the non-core version of that ability, or is every version of that ability wiped out?

2) Do the bonus feats for the CoCL require you to meet their prerequisites for them to be taken (core bits notwithstanding) or are they true bonus feats?

3) For Elegant Strike, it should be read like this, right?

Elegant Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 2nd level, you become able to place your attacks where they deal greater damage. You apply your Dexterity bonus as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus you may have) with any of the following weapons: elven thinblade, elven lightblade, or elven court sword. Targets immune to sneak attacks or extra damage from critical hits are immune to your elegant strike.

[Inevitability]

This is very interesting! I got a couple of general questions:

1) If an ability that shares a name with a core ability (such as Multiattack in Masters of the Wild) showed up in a non-core source but was updated for 3.5 core, can you still use the non-core version of that ability, or is every version of that ability wiped out?

2) Do the bonus feats for the CoCL require you to meet their prerequisites for them to be taken (core bits notwithstanding) or are they true bonus feats?

3) For Elegant Strike, it should be read like this, right?

1. I specifically worded the ability to emphasize that the many feats that were non-core in 3.0 but core in 3.5 aren't allowed, so MotW multiattack is off the table just like how MMV multiattack is.

2. Speaking as a chair: that's up to individual judges to penalize or not. Bonus feats and prerequisites are a sure source of debate, and inviting that sort of controversy might very well be punished with an elegance penalty.

3. In practice it's likely to be that way, yes. You can't simply say 'my character uses a longsword' because the longsword is a PHB weapon.

[pabelfly]

I dont think I'll submit a build for this, but oh boy do I have a small essay to write about the ingredients.

[Soranar]

I've been working on a build and, though it certainly hurts to lose all the core stuff, it's impressive how bad this prestige class is even with the relaxed entry.

making this thing shine is really a challenge

[loky1109]

I have one more idea, but I don't think it works.

[SirNibbles]

I've never been a fan of classes with no real features being chosen for these kinds of competitions. If this class had no entry requirements and could be entered at level 1, it still wouldn't be worth taking: for 10 levels you get full BAB, bad skills, decent saves, 4 Fighter Bonus Feats, Dex to damage*, full movement speed in armor, and a weak smite-like ability.

Basically, for a 10 level investment, you become somewhat better at hitting things with a stick- or, more specifically, certain kinds of sticks. Corellon's Wrath is on par with first/second level Wiz/Sorc spells.

*You cannot become proficient with any of the weapons that this class requires for its Elegant Strike ability because they are either in the PHB and thus cannot be used: longsword; rapier; and scimitar, or they require a core feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: elven thinblade; elven lightblade; and "elven court sword" (which is surely supposed to be elven courtblade).

[pabelfly]

*You cannot become proficient with any of the weapons that this class requires for its Elegant Strike ability because they are either in the PHB and thus cannot be used: longsword; rapier; and scimitar, or they require a core feat, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: elven thinblade; elven lightblade; and "elven court sword" (which is surely supposed to be elven courtblade).

I've found four different ways to gain the proficiency. I just hate all of them for different reasons.

[loky1109]

I've found four different ways to gain the proficiency. I just hate all of them for different reasons.

I know at least three. And I even didn't search. )

[Lokiron]

I've found four different ways to gain the proficiency. I just hate all of them for different reasons.

I'm no expert in these games, but the class entry says, "in addition to the feats above, you must also take either weapon focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency".

Seems to mean the feat is required, not the actual proficiency. Might be waived in these rules.

[pabelfly]

I'm no expert in these games, but the class entry says, "in addition to the feats above, you must also take either weapon focus or Exotic Weapon Proficiency".

Seems to mean the feat is required, not the actual proficiency. Might be waived in these rules.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus are waived since they're PHB feats.

You might still want the proficiency to get dex to damage though.

[Chronos]

Right, for this challenge, you can't take and don't need the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. But you can get proficiency other ways than the feat, and might want to in order to benefit from that feature.

[Soranar]

what happens to favored classes?

say my character's race favored class is fighter, now fighters are banned

-does he not have a favored class?
-does it switch to any?

do we even use multiclass penalties in these things?

just want to make sure before I submit

[Inevitability]

what happens to favored classes?

say my character's race favored class is fighter, now fighters are banned

-does he not have a favored class?
-does it switch to any?

do we even use multiclass penalties in these things?

just want to make sure before I submit

If your favored class is fighter, you can't really benefit from that because you can't take levels in fighter. It doesn't switch to any.

Some judges will inflict elegance penalties on builds that incur multiclass penalties, others won't. It's always worth looking whether a build can be made without running into those penalties.